Religion classes in school - Megathread

Jacob Lewis5 said:Look, the link is the Bible; that's where love and Moses meet. Some folks find their answers in the Old Testament, others in the New—basically sticking to the core ideology of Christianity—but it all traces back to the Bible and religious studies. It's tough to find things like love and friendship in our public school system, even though they really should be at the heart of everything we teach. Parents ought to be the ones teaching their kids about spiritual values through faith, rather than relying on scripts from Walt Disney.

It's not like anyone is stopping parents from teaching their kids spiritual values through Christianity. It would actually be pretty great if that kind of teaching happened where it belongs—in churches and at home. ☕

Personally, I'm not looking for my kid to learn specific Christian "values." I just want her to grow up to be a tolerant person who respects everyone.

slybison88 said:I’ve actually been avoiding your posts lately because I can see how hardcore you are about Christianity, and honestly, I wasn't asking for religious advice, nor am I really interested in that perspective.

But look, I’ve got an argument.
Do you seriously believe the Holy Spirit impregnated the Virgin Mary? Like, you think that’s actually possible?
And that Moses split the ocean right in half... c'mon now.
I'm just not buying it.

edit: And before anyone starts, I’m not looking to get into a whole debate about whether I’m a believer or not. I’ve already made up my mind on that.

My point was strictly about those Christian songs they play in preschools and elementary schools.

What makes you think I'm some fanatic? Just because I think religious studies belong in school? You're labeling and basically bullying me just because we don't see eye-to-eye. Most people would call that kind of behavior low-key fascist. And newsflash: you don't have to take the Old Testament literally (sorry, but you can't really bash Christianity when you clearly haven't grasped the basics). Those Old Testament stories aren't the whole faith; they're symbolic, meant to carry a message. They're everywhere. The heart of Christianity is Jesus's philosophy. Yeah, I believe in the resurrection too, but it all comes down to faith—there isn't "proof" for faith (and being emotional doesn't count as proof, unfortunately). There are logical arguments, sure, but they won't explain everything. The real focus of the faith isn't some dense theology; it's Jesus's core message, which is pretty hard to find fault with.

Jason Ortiz5 said:It's not like anyone is stopping parents from teaching their kids spiritual values through Christianity. It would actually be pretty great if that kind of teaching happened where it belongs—in churches and at home. ☕

Personally, I'm not looking for my kid to learn specific Christian "values." I just want her to grow up to be a tolerant person who respects everyone.

Christianity is all about being tolerant toward people who are different. Being intolerant is actually anti-Christian. Most of the intolerance you see associated with Christianity comes from people who don't even step foot in a church. We can pull religious ed from schools or slash government funding to the Church for all I care... I’m not worried about Christianity itself, but it bugs me when people push their own prejudices against Christians as a reason to strip the Church of its role in society. I actually appreciate having a strong religious institution in our community, unlike some of you folks who let people fill your heads with this nonsense. You guys are seriously stressing me out.

slybison88 said:I grew up in the Catholic faith and I know it well, but I have no intention of teaching my child those things. I took religious ed and I've had all the sacraments, which is exactly why I don't want my kid believing in that stuff.

And I'm definitely not forcing Christmas two months early; I don't even have decorations up right now.
I might put up a tree just for the atmosphere. If I want it for the vibes, then that's that! I've got nothing against snowmen, ornaments, reindeer, or Santa Claus... I don't want to live in a bubble.
But I'm not teaching my kid about the Virgin Mary or Jesus.

If they want to choose for themselves one day, let them.

I wasn't even implying that you were personally trampling over Christmas two months ahead of time, I was talking more about the culture we live in... I was keeping it general.

And honestly, I just don't get it—why bother with the tree for "the vibe" or whatever if you aren't celebrating Christmas and don't believe in God? Fine, okay, whatever... but what happens one day when you actually have a little one running around asking why there's a tree in the house and why we do this specific stuff at this specific time?
What are you gonna tell them? Just "because everyone else does"?

And let me ask you this, just thinking out loud here: what kind of message are we sending as parents if we don't give kids any foundation at all (in this case, regarding faith)? Aren't you worried that someday someone might take advantage of that lack of knowledge and steer them in a direction you definitely wouldn't approve of?
From what I see when I'm meeting people, I get the impression that the most extreme religious fanatics are often the ones who knew absolutely nothing about God until just yesterday😁... maybe I'm wrong, who knows? But aren't you afraid that by saying "I don't want my kid learning about Jesus and the Virgin Mary," you're actually just creating the perfect breeding ground for exactly that kind of thing later on? I'm just asking as one parent to another, not trying to come for you.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Christianity is all about being tolerant toward people who are different. Being intolerant is actually anti-Christian. Most of the intolerance you see associated with Christianity comes from people who don't even step foot in a church. We can pull religious ed from schools or slash government funding to the Church for all I care... I’m not worried about Christianity itself, but it bugs me when people push their own prejudices against Christians as a reason to strip the Church of its role in society. I actually appreciate having a strong religious institution in our community, unlike some of you folks who let people fill your heads with this nonsense. You guys are seriously stressing me out.

I live in a super religious area. My boss at work is constantly scattering crucifixes and holy pictures everywhere; she and the other managers won't stop talking about God, the church, and holiness... I sit right next to two women in my office who are incredibly intense about their faith. And yet, for all that "holiness" and devotion, I haven't seen a single ounce of actual tolerance or basic human decency from them.

Lawrence Torres56 said:I wasn't even implying that you were personally trampling over Christmas two months ahead of time, I was talking more about the culture we live in... I was keeping it general.

And honestly, I just don't get it—why bother with the tree for "the vibe" or whatever if you aren't celebrating Christmas and don't believe in God? Fine, okay, whatever... but what happens one day when you actually have a little one running around asking why there's a tree in the house and why we do this specific stuff at this specific time?
What are you gonna tell them? Just "because everyone else does"?

And let me ask you this, just thinking out loud here: what kind of message are we sending as parents if we don't give kids any foundation at all (in this case, regarding faith)? Aren't you worried that someday someone might take advantage of that lack of knowledge and steer them in a direction you definitely wouldn't approve of?
From what I see when I'm meeting people, I get the impression that the most extreme religious fanatics are often the ones who knew absolutely nothing about God until just yesterday😁... maybe I'm wrong, who knows? But aren't you afraid that by saying "I don't want my kid learning about Jesus and the Virgin Mary," you're actually just creating the perfect breeding ground for exactly that kind of thing later on? I'm just asking as one parent to another, not trying to come for you.

I'm gonna ignore all of that for now and save my answer for when I'm actually ready to deal with it😁
I don't plan on answering those questions or teaching them anything. I'm not saying it's "right"... we'll just see how it goes😁

Lawrence Torres56 said:First off, please don't take this the wrong way, but I am genuinely stumped here.😁

Why bother putting up a tree just for the atmosphere and the commercialism?... why go against your own gut and just follow the crowd like everyone else?

So, okay, you don't believe in God, and you don't want your kid knowing anything about religion one day... fine. But if that's the case, why push the tree and all that stuff tied to it if you aren't willing to commit to the bit? Why not just give them the chance to learn the basics of every faith so they can decide for themselves when they're older?🤷...
I don't know, but personally, I feel like being aware of different religions today is actually an advantage, not a drawback. By learning about them, we see the common threads between people, and it means no one can ever sell us some nonsense story about a "bad" Catholic, or a bad Muslim... it'll just be about a bad person who's using faith as an excuse.

I'm Catholic myself, and I celebrate Christmas, but man, it drives me absolutely crazy when Christmas starts getting forced on us two months early by people who don't even care about the holiday. They don't understand the symbolism or the Catholic faith at all; they just want to push it harder and earlier every single year...

Um, what does decorating a tree actually have to do with Christianity, the Bible, or Jesus?

Jason Ortiz5 said:I live in a super religious area. My boss at work is constantly scattering crucifixes and holy pictures everywhere; she and the other managers won't stop talking about God, the church, and holiness... I sit right next to two women in my office who are incredibly intense about their faith. And yet, for all that "holiness" and devotion, I haven't seen a single ounce of actual tolerance or basic human decency from them.

I already dropped my take on people like this on this thread at 11:55.
Here's the deal: I have a cousin who is clearly a believer—rosary, religious bracelets, you see her at church all the time—but she mostly just kept her head down at her job because she works in a super liberal environment. There was this one colleague, totally radical, who used to look right at her and say stuff like he wanted to break the bones of anyone voting for traditional marriage. It’s a joke. Your own side is just as infected by this stupidity; I've personally witnessed how intolerant people on your side can be, too.

Our school system is already struggling with basic character building—there’s zero focus on spiritual values or teaching kids how to actually respect diversity. Honestly, I think if we just gave in to the demands to scrap religious education entirely, we'd be making a huge mistake. Most people pushing for that are just motivated by nothing but old-school prejudices against the Church anyway.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Our school system is already struggling with basic character building—there’s zero focus on spiritual values or teaching kids how to actually respect diversity. Honestly, I think if we just gave in to the demands to scrap religious education entirely, we'd be making a huge mistake. Most people pushing for that are just motivated by nothing but old-school prejudices against the Church anyway.

Look, faith is a deeply PERSONAL thing. It belongs to the individual. I don't see why personal beliefs need to be shoved into public schools, especially when there are perfectly good churches right down the street built specifically for that purpose.

At the end of the day, it’s really about funding, treating all kids equally, and just being decent humans. Isn't the "Golden Rule"—you know, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you—one of the most fundamental ethical principles we have?

Jacob Lewis5 said:Look, diversity is actually a good thing. We just need to learn how to coexist with it. You aren't going to "win" against diversity by trying to sterilize public or government spaces. If we start purging our own Christian identity from the public square, then we might as well just kick every other kind of difference out too. Right?

I’d suggest you actually read through this thread—maybe even scroll back a few pages—so you can wrap your head around why anyone would actually oppose religious education in schools.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Look, faith is a deeply PERSONAL thing. It belongs to the individual. I don't see why personal beliefs need to be shoved into public schools, especially when there are perfectly good churches right down the street built specifically for that purpose.

At the end of the day, it’s really about funding, treating all kids equally, and just being decent humans. Isn't the "Golden Rule"—you know, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you—one of the most fundamental ethical principles we have?

The government (the community) exists to serve its people, not the other way around. There's no such thing as a "state culture" that requires anyone to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the nation. We should be free to organize our society however we see fit. I don't see any reason why anyone should have to hide who they are from their community. If there's actually a huge interest in Catholic/Islamic/Orthodox religious studies, then I don't get why that wouldn't just be handled through an elective class for an hour a week.

Robert Rodriguez9 said:I’d suggest you actually read through this thread—maybe even scroll back a few pages—so you can wrap your head around why anyone would actually oppose religious education in schools.

Yeah, I really am.

Jacob Lewis5 said:The government (the community) exists to serve its people, not the other way around. There's no such thing as a "state culture" that requires anyone to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the nation. We should be free to organize our society however we see fit. I don't see any reason why anyone should have to hide who they are from their community. If there's actually a huge interest in Catholic/Islamic/Orthodox religious studies, then I don't get why that wouldn't just be handled through an elective class for an hour a week.

Yeah, I really am.

Two hours. That's what we're talking about. An "elective" course that gets special treatment compared to everything else on the schedule.

The government is meant to be a community for EVERY resident, and its whole job is to guarantee equality for ALL citizens. That's literally what the Constitution says. Also, having a personality doesn't mean you're being "hidden" just because you aren't shoving it in everyone's faces or being loud about it. Why would faith be considered hidden if people practice it in churches or mosques? It's like saying someone is hiding their love for fitness just because they go to a gym instead of working out at City Hall.

There is absolutely no reason to suppress who you are. It is quite rare to find an atheist or someone from a different faith who actually takes issue with you identifying as Catholic or wearing a cross around your neck.
On the contrary, I would argue that no religion truly fosters common ground; instead, they tend to assert their own specific values as universal truths, placing them above everyone else's beliefs and certainly above the foundational principles of secularism. The presence of religious education in our public schools bothers me specifically because my own convictions—provided they don't violate the law or basic common sense—are treated as inherently inferior to those held by Catholics. To provide a banal example: I have been in a domestic partnership for eighteen years now, yet the Catholic faith, and by extension the school's religious curriculum, views my relationship as fundamentally "lesser" than a marriage performed in a church. This judgment persists regardless of the actual quality or stability of either union. There are even more absurd instances, such as seeing statements in first-grade textbooks where a story might imply that only certain groups of people bother to pray.

Furthermore, we cannot ignore the fact that this elective subject skews grade point averages, which can unfairly influence a student's ability to get into a competitive high school.

As for the practical utility of knowledge, well, any information can be useful in its own way. But why on earth should we prioritize teaching the intricacies of various faiths over essential life skills like cooking or even basic home maintenance like painting walls?

Jason Ortiz5 said:I live in a super religious area. My boss at work is constantly scattering crucifixes and holy pictures everywhere; she and the other managers won't stop talking about God, the church, and holiness... I sit right next to two women in my office who are incredibly intense about their faith. And yet, for all that "holiness" and devotion, I haven't seen a single ounce of actual tolerance or basic human decency from them.

There’s an old saying that goes, "I don't fear God, I fear those who speak in His name."

It’s the exact same thing you see happening outside every elementary school. Why bother with mandatory Bible classes, crucifixes, or blessings... when you just look at how those kids actually behave toward one another?

Jason Ortiz5 said:It's not like anyone is stopping parents from teaching their kids spiritual values through Christianity. It would actually be pretty great if that kind of teaching happened where it belongs—in churches and at home. ☕

Personally, I'm not looking for my kid to learn specific Christian "values." I just want her to grow up to be a tolerant person who respects everyone.

And how exactly do you respect the believers and the faculty at the school your child attends? ☕

Jason Ortiz5 said:Look, faith is a deeply PERSONAL thing. It belongs to the individual. I don't see why personal beliefs need to be shoved into public schools, especially when there are perfectly good churches right down the street built specifically for that purpose.

At the end of the day, it’s really about funding, treating all kids equally, and just being decent humans. Isn't the "Golden Rule"—you know, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you—one of the most fundamental ethical principles we have?

Amendment 1.
Freedom of conscience and religion is guaranteed, along with the free exercise of religion or any other belief.
Amendment 1.
All religious communities are equal before the law and are separate from the state.
Religious communities are free, in accordance with the law, to publicly perform religious rites, establish schools, academies, other institutions, social and charitable organizations, and manage them, while enjoying the protection and assistance of the state in their activities.
http://www.congress.gov/Default.aspx?art=1841

How exactly is faith a private matter?

Regarding "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"—nobody is forcing you into religious education. But you *are* trying to force religious education out of the school system.

Jason Ortiz5 said:Two hours. That's what we're talking about. An "elective" course that gets special treatment compared to everything else on the schedule.

The government is meant to be a community for EVERY resident, and its whole job is to guarantee equality for ALL citizens. That's literally what the Constitution says. Also, having a personality doesn't mean you're being "hidden" just because you aren't shoving it in everyone's faces or being loud about it. Why would faith be considered hidden if people practice it in churches or mosques? It's like saying someone is hiding their love for fitness just because they go to a gym instead of working out at City Hall.

So, what’s your actual take here? Are you arguing that the government should force religious education on everyone, or is your stance that a minority should dictate terms to the majority by forcing religious studies out of schools entirely? Which side are you actually pulling for?
Personally, I believe in the freedom of choice for every single individual.

P.S. I honestly find the complaints from atheists—specifically regarding how much influence religion teachers have over school assemblies—to be quite baffling. The reality is that most school events are centered around holidays rooted in Christian traditions. If we wanted to truly "level the playing field" by making non-religious events equal to religious ones, we’d have to start hosting celebrations for things like a dear friend's birthday or commemorating days tied to the American Civil War. In the US, our major holidays fall almost exclusively into two buckets: they are either Christian-based or they are secular holidays established during or after the struggle for our nation's independence. Out of our twelve major holidays, ten of them fit perfectly into one of those two categories. It follows logically that when an assembly is held to celebrate a religious holiday, the religion teacher is going to play a leading role.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:And how exactly do you respect the believers and the faculty at the school your child attends? ☕

Amendment 1.
Freedom of conscience and religion is guaranteed, along with the free exercise of religion or any other belief.
Amendment 1.
All religious communities are equal before the law and are separate from the state.
Religious communities are free, in accordance with the law, to publicly perform religious rites, establish schools, academies, other institutions, social and charitable organizations, and manage them, while enjoying the protection and assistance of the state in their activities.
http://www.congress.gov/Default.aspx?art=1841

How exactly is faith a private matter?

Regarding "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"—nobody is forcing you into religious education. But you *are* trying to force religious education out of the school system.

So, what’s your actual take here? Are you arguing that the government should force religious education on everyone, or is your stance that a minority should dictate terms to the majority by forcing religious studies out of schools entirely? Which side are you actually pulling for?
Personally, I believe in the freedom of choice for every single individual.

P.S. I honestly find the complaints from atheists—specifically regarding how much influence religion teachers have over school assemblies—to be quite baffling. The reality is that most school events are centered around holidays rooted in Christian traditions. If we wanted to truly "level the playing field" by making non-religious events equal to religious ones, we’d have to start hosting celebrations for things like a dear friend's birthday or commemorating days tied to the American Civil War. In the US, our major holidays fall almost exclusively into two buckets: they are either Christian-based or they are secular holidays established during or after the struggle for our nation's independence. Out of our twelve major holidays, ten of them fit perfectly into one of those two categories. It follows logically that when an assembly is held to celebrate a religious holiday, the religion teacher is going to play a leading role.

Most of our holidays are really just excuses to get a day off work.
I mean, what are we actually celebrating on December 26th? Is it just a day to celebrate gift receipts?
And what about the Fourth of July? Usually, it’s just a reason to head to the coast and combine it with a long weekend to clean up the beach house.

Regarding school assemblies, I’m not really a fan of them at all—they always feel a bit tacky to me. Back when my kids were in preschool, we didn't do any of that.🙏 🙏 🙏

A school could easily organize an event for "School Spirit Day," which they pick themselves, maybe based on the school's name or some local history that isn't tied to religion or war.
They could also celebrate Teacher Appreciation Day, which is also secular.
Or they could highlight student competitions and achievements, provided those successes aren't tied to anyone's faith or their family's service during the American Civil War.
I’d actually love it if schools celebrated Labor Day properly too.

For all those kinds of events, you don't need Jesus to show up and bless the teachers' hard work or the students' success. Those things depend on skill, motivation, and effort, not faith.
Setting up a Nativity scene, acting out the birth of Jesus, or doing a Three Kings procession... that isn't really something a school should be putting on for an audience. I think those things are perfectly suited for churches and family gatherings.

Decorating trees or dyeing Easter eggs isn't strictly a religious requirement, either.
But I suppose most practicing Catholics know that.🥳

Personally, I think it's fine if a school puts up some lights or lets kids do crafts to help develop their fine motor skills and teamwork. We want school to be more than just endless memorization and misery.
And all of that can happen without having children blessed inside the school building.
While I personally find blessings to be quite lovely and appreciate that expression of faith, I just don't think the school setting is the right place for it.

So, what you're saying is public schools shouldn't observe federal holidays at all? Should they just go out and invent their own arbitrary days off instead? I don't see any issue with having a blessing for students and faculty during a school assembly held for a religious holiday, provided that attendance isn't mandatory for anyone involved.

Alexander Ortiz3 said:So, what you're saying is public schools shouldn't observe federal holidays at all? Should they just go out and invent their own arbitrary days off instead? I don't see any issue with having a blessing for students and faculty during a school assembly held for a religious holiday, provided that attendance isn't mandatory for anyone involved.

Well, if celebrating a religious holiday ends up discriminating against certain students, then yes, it shouldn't happen.
On top of that, I worry that celebrating Christmas in schools has turned into nothing more than consumerism and tacky parades. That true spirit of togetherness—which is really about family anyway—seems to be getting lost. If even believers aren't feeling it, why bother bothering atheists, right?

And schools shouldn't be inventing holidays; they already exist.
If a school feels the need to hold assemblies, they should be related to the school itself, not the church.
Plus, they ought to include all the students at the school.
(By "include," I mean some kids can sing or dance while the others watch. Not everyone needs to have a performance part.)

Teacher Appreciation Day should be celebrated properly because teaching is such a vital profession, and it's an important date for both the students and the staff. I'm not sure if a church would even organize an event like that? Or maybe they already do somewhere?

The same goes for the birth of Jesus; that is celebrated in church, so I don't see the need to double up by celebrating it at school too. We don't hold celebrations for the births of Shakespeare, Sena, Ue, or Draskovic, so if a school happens to be named after one of them, why wouldn't the students organize a little commemorative assembly?
I'm not sure how they would celebrate a school anniversary at Lincoln Elementary School in Brooklyn, but I'm sure they have a specific date that matters to them—one that their local parish won't be marking, and one that not every single student will show up for.