Religion classes in school - Megathread

shadowcrane91 said:In America, about 86% of people identify as Catholic... and you can see how the government and all its institutions bend to that reality.
Once those self-proclaimed Catholics stop identifying that way, I assume the state would actually have to shift its "policies."
But as long as they keep checking that box—well, I don't see anything changing.
There just aren't enough people bothered enough to speak up publicly and demand the government change its ways.
Look, personally, as a Catholic, I’m not going to sit here and lie and say that seeing religious doctrine and Catholic symbols everywhere bugs me... because it doesn't.
According to every statistic out there, we are a Catholic nation, and until those numbers start looking different...

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And you think 86% of people actually live out their faith?! 🤦

Larry Walker24 said:And you think 86% of people actually live out their faith?! 🤦

I never even said that, and it’s not even the point of my post...
Where on earth did I say that?????
The bottom line is—America is just following suit based on that logic...
And as long as these so-called Catholics keep pretending they’re SUPER devout, the whole country is going to keep aligning itself with them.

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Honestly, nobody on the Nike list even bothered to ask what kind of Catholic I actually am. They just wanted my official creed. Look, I was baptized in the Catholic Church, I’ve got all the traditions down, I say my prayers at the cemetery for my grandparents, and you can count on me being in church for Christmas and Easter. I’ll even go to confession if someone tries to make me their godmother.
So, yeah—I’m not an atheist, I’m not agnostic, and I’m definitely not some Pastafarian. Until someone gives me the option to identify as a "mimocatholic," I’m sticking with Roman Catholic.
And religious education happens in the church regardless of how many "good" Catholics are actually showing up—mostly because of those Vatican agreements. Which, let's be real, were basically just a massive lobbying effort to get the US to recognize certain interests... but anyway, that’s a whole other conversation.

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Look, sorry, but your description sounds like what a "Catholic" looks like on paper... you know, those people who only bother showing up to church twice a year.
As far as I'm concerned, those aren't even Catholics.
You aren't actually living your faith—you're just picking and choosing when it’s convenient.
So what, you're a Catholic twice a year at a funeral or when you're a godfather, but the rest of the year you couldn't care less about the church, confession, or anything else that actually comes with being part of the faith?
At least, that's what I'm getting from your post.
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I consider myself a pretty dedicated Catholic.
I believe in God—so, no, I’m definitely not an atheist or an agnostic. I was baptized in the Catholic Church, and when I go to Mass, I head to a Catholic parish. When I pray, I’m using Catholic prayers. So, basically how am I supposed to label myself according to your logic?
I mean, if they ever actually let me identify as a Mimokatolik, or even a PapрокаCatholic, I’d be more than happy to. But until then, it just feels a bit nonsensical to me because you seem to think I’m not "Catholic enough" to call myself a Jedi or a Pastafarian.

Look, you can say what you want... we clearly aren't seeing eye to eye here...
It honestly cracks me up when people who only bother stepping foot in a church twice a year claim they’re die-hard Catholics with such passion.
I mean, sure, they're Catholic on paper... but there are millions of people like that all over this country.
And then, once the government decides based on those numbers that this faith is the dominant one and deserves special status in our institutions and everything else...
Suddenly everyone starts revolting—like, "Wait, how could this happen?" or "Why is this happening?"
Well, there's your answer right there.

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shadowcrane91 said:Look, sorry, but your description sounds like what a "Catholic" looks like on paper... you know, those people who only bother showing up to church twice a year.
As far as I'm concerned, those aren't even Catholics.
You aren't actually living your faith—you're just picking and choosing when it’s convenient.
So what, you're a Catholic twice a year at a funeral or when you're a godfather, but the rest of the year you couldn't care less about the church, confession, or anything else that actually comes with being part of the faith?
At least, that's what I'm getting from your post.
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About 75% of people in America are like that. The remaining chunk up to 86% are the ones who actually live their faith.

Looking at the last census data from 2011 here in the States, the number of people claiming to be Catholic dipped slightly from 87.97% back in 2001 down to 86.28%. But honestly? The real story is how much the atheist and agnostic crowd is growing. Back in 2001, we only had about 1,500 people identifying as agnostic, but by 2011, that number shot up to over 32,000. It makes you wonder how much Vatican City actually respects agnostics. I mean, if you want proof, look at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences—they bring together scientists regardless of whether they believe in God or not. There was even this super interesting interview floating around the news lately with Hans Joachim Schellnhuber. He’s one of those top-tier climatologists who basically became the Pope's 'climate ambassador,' even though he's an agnostic himself.

shadowcrane91, look, I'm not exactly claiming passionately to be Catholic or anything. I’m just asking—if I weren't, how am I even supposed to identify myself? And honestly, what Larry Walker24 said hits the nail on the head—most of us who call ourselves Catholic are basically just "cultural Catholics."
And it’s not just a Catholic thing, either. I know plenty of Calvinists who only step foot in a church maybe twice a year, and even Muslims who were told once they were Muslim and just rolled with it, identifying that way even if they don't pray or fast at all...
I get it, people might think we're a bit lukewarm when it comes to actual practice... but just because we aren't super intense doesn't mean our identity isn't real. 😉

Honestly, I can totally get where those people are coming from—the ones who call themselves Catholic but only show up for Christmas and Easter. My mind immediately jumps to the folks working Sunday shifts just to make ends meet... and look, purely from a human perspective, I can't really judge them for choosing to spend that one precious free Sunday a month with their families instead of sitting in a pew.

What actually gets under my skin, though, are the people who show up to Mass every single week while simultaneously spitting on the Church and everything it stands for... you know, the types who religiously enroll their kids in religious ed classes at school and at the parish, but then turn around and play the "devout believer" or the "poor victim" depending on which crowd they're hanging out with, spinning these tall tales about how they're being forced into it.😢

In my kid's class, there are two kids who don't take religious ed at school, but everyone else does—and this year, they even started going to the parish classes too. You’ll see a bunch of parents standing outside the church every single time, practically tripping over each other just to squeeze into a seat, but then the second they get home, they turn their backs on their wives and trash the Church and the faith in ways that are honestly just sickening to hear.
And do you really think those people are more faithful than the ones who attend Mass whenever they possibly can and actually raise their children with those values in their hearts? I wouldn't bet on it.

But because of groups like Catholic News Service (as you guys call yourselves), the state feels entitled to label itself "Catholic" and let those values bleed into every single sector... from major institutions down to the local level. As long as those census numbers don't change, you're going to see Catholic influence everywhere—from preschools to public schools and government offices alike.
Personally, I’m fine with it... and clearly, that 86% majority is fine with it too.
Look, Catholicism, just like any other religion, is always looking for ways to spread its reach and promote itself everywhere.
For them, having an 86% majority is the perfect green light to dominate this region and embed itself into every institution possible.
And as long as that percentage stays that high, the Church is going to keep digging its roots in deep, and they'll feel justified doing whatever it takes.
I'm telling you... it doesn't bother me. If anyone else has a problem with it, they can either go change the demographics or just shut up about the path they chose for themselves.
Everyone else can complain all they want, but I don't see the point in whining while the number of Catholics remains this massive.

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Look, I don't see Catholicism just backing off from public institutions just because of a 14% margin...
I mean, let's be real—no religion is going to pack up and leave if they hold a massive majority in an area like that...
So, what exactly is the big deal here???

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Let’s stick to the topic of religious education in our schools, okay?

Honestly, I don't really care how often someone steps foot in a church. What actually keeps me up at night is seeing whether people truly live out their faith and act in accordance with those values when they're out in the world.
For instance, if a kid is being violent in seventh grade despite attending religious classes since first grade, then I feel certain that it isn't just a failure on the parents' part—it's a failure of the Church too. I’m not interested in the reasons why a child was enrolled in these classes in the first place, but if they’ve been attending twice a week for seven years, you’d think they would have picked up at least ten of the Commandments by now. And clearly, they haven't.
I know this is just one example, but it’s a heartbreaking one. And unfortunately, it's happening all over the place.

To clarify my point: I’m not worried about how Catholics plan to clean up their own house. I’m concerned about the quality of the teaching itself. It should be rooted in the core teachings of Jesus, like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "love your neighbor as yourself."
So why does bullying still happen? 🤔

I won't even go there regarding kids who aren't in religious education; I'm talking about the bullying that happens between the students themselves. How does it even get to that point?
They are supposedly being taught these values from the very first grade. 🥳
How is it possible that they still haven't learned them? 😕

Sarah Hall53 said:shadowcrane91, look, I'm not exactly claiming passionately to be Catholic or anything. I’m just asking—if I weren't, how am I even supposed to identify myself? And honestly, what Larry Walker24 said hits the nail on the head—most of us who call ourselves Catholic are basically just "cultural Catholics."
And it’s not just a Catholic thing, either. I know plenty of Calvinists who only step foot in a church maybe twice a year, and even Muslims who were told once they were Muslim and just rolled with it, identifying that way even if they don't pray or fast at all...
I get it, people might think we're a bit lukewarm when it comes to actual practice... but just because we aren't super intense doesn't mean our identity isn't real. 😉

You identify based on who you actually are, how you live your life, and what you actually stand for....
Besides, I've seen people on those census lists claim they're Klingons, 😁 though I highly doubt any of them have ever actually been to outer space.😉

And there is absolutely no reason why me or any other Catholic would find your existence—or anyone else's—to be "lukewarm." What's actually lukewarm is the hypocrisy of people pretending to be something they aren't while simultaneously spitting on themselves and everyone else who actually lives out their identity and stays true to who they are.

By the way, is it not "lukewarm" to you when someone here trashes religious education in public schools, claiming they only send their kid to class just so the little one isn't sitting alone in the hallway, only to then go on about signatures and stickers that are exclusively handed out to kids attending church-based religious ed?

Honestly, I think all this chaos is happening because out of that 86%, maybe only 10% are actually practicing Catholics...
Everyone else just claims the label without having even an ounce of actual faith. It’s just how things pass down through generations—people go through the motions without ever stopping to think about what they're actually signing up for by claiming that identity.

I don't get it either. How can someone insist on sending their kid to religious ed classes when they aren't even living out those beliefs themselves?

And I'm with you there... if you're going to call yourself Catholic, then actually live the life you say you believe in.
Don't just shove your kid into Sunday school just for the sake of appearances, or so they can hang out with friends, or whatever.

Look, speaking as a Catholic myself, I'm not raising my kids that way, so I don't really have an answer for you on that one.

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Susan James said:Let’s stick to the topic of religious education in our schools, okay?

Honestly, I don't really care how often someone steps foot in a church. What actually keeps me up at night is seeing whether people truly live out their faith and act in accordance with those values when they're out in the world.
For instance, if a kid is being violent in seventh grade despite attending religious classes since first grade, then I feel certain that it isn't just a failure on the parents' part—it's a failure of the Church too. I’m not interested in the reasons why a child was enrolled in these classes in the first place, but if they’ve been attending twice a week for seven years, you’d think they would have picked up at least ten of the Commandments by now. And clearly, they haven't.
I know this is just one example, but it’s a heartbreaking one. And unfortunately, it's happening all over the place.

To clarify my point: I’m not worried about how Catholics plan to clean up their own house. I’m concerned about the quality of the teaching itself. It should be rooted in the core teachings of Jesus, like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "love your neighbor as yourself."
So why does bullying still happen? 🤔

I won't even go there regarding kids who aren't in religious education; I'm talking about the bullying that happens between the students themselves. How does it even get to that point?
They are supposedly being taught these values from the very first grade. 🥳
How is it possible that they still haven't learned them? 😕

Think about it—seven years of forty-five-minute sessions twice a week—how exactly do you expect that to undo fourteen years of being raised in an environment where they're learning a completely different set of rules twenty-four hours a day?
And why did the Catholic Church fail here?
If anyone dropped the ball, it’s strictly the parents who are setting a terrible example for their kids...
I mean, how can you seriously expect a child to listen to a lesson about loving others as themselves in class, only to head home and see nothing but "every man for himself" from their own parents?

Bullying doesn't stem from true believers or atheists; it comes from the people who flip-flop between the two whenever it suits them.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Think about it—seven years of forty-five-minute sessions twice a week—how exactly do you expect that to undo fourteen years of being raised in an environment where they're learning a completely different set of rules twenty-four hours a day?
And why did the Catholic Church fail here?
If anyone dropped the ball, it’s strictly the parents who are setting a terrible example for their kids...
I mean, how can you seriously expect a child to listen to a lesson about loving others as themselves in class, only to head home and see nothing but "every man for himself" from their own parents?

Bullying doesn't stem from true believers or atheists; it comes from the people who flip-flop between the two whenever it suits them.

👍

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Lawrence Torres56 said:Think about it—seven years of forty-five-minute sessions twice a week—how exactly do you expect that to undo fourteen years of being raised in an environment where they're learning a completely different set of rules twenty-four hours a day?
And why did the Catholic Church fail here?
If anyone dropped the ball, it’s strictly the parents who are setting a terrible example for their kids...
I mean, how can you seriously expect a child to listen to a lesson about loving others as themselves in class, only to head home and see nothing but "every man for himself" from their own parents?

Bullying doesn't stem from true believers or atheists; it comes from the people who flip-flop between the two whenever it suits them.

I wasn't suggesting that these things get "fixed."
What I meant was that this is what should be taught during religious education classes.
Even if parents don't speak a second language at home, the kids still learn it during those two weekly lessons.

I'm convinced that the way Jesus laid out his teachings (and he did it perfectly 👍) can be learned in a single year rather than seven. It's actually quite simple and logical, and honestly, it's very easy for kids to grasp at that age.

But sure, whatever you say. That's not what gets taught. 🙄
Instead, they focus on imaginary figures, rituals, and reciting prayers.
The priority seems to be learning the church hierarchy and why it's vital to attend mass every Sunday (🤔 or being told by teachers to "bring your parents to service this Sunday"—a mom mentioned that's the assignment they got at our local parish)
So, essentially, even a perfectly designed curriculum loses its impact because the outward formality is treated as more important than the actual spiritual process. 🤷

I totally agree that if children see a model at school that contradicts what they see at home, they're going to follow the home model every single time. That's a huge risk the Church took by taking on the responsibility of teaching moral development in schools. With that comes a lot of accountability. 🙂

Plus, if students see a culture at school where it's okay to say, "I don't care where the non-believers are while we're in class" or "let them hang out in the hallway," then Jesus's message about peace and loving your neighbor loses all its meaning—even if the parents at home truly live by those values of empathy and love.
I also think the idea of "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you" carries much more weight in classrooms where religion is the first period. In those cases, kids who don't attend the class don't feel left out or excluded; they can just nap or relax and then rejoin their friends peacefully when the lesson is over.

nosorog,
look, you’ve got it all wrong. kids pick up a second language if they’re actually hitting the books at home too, not just sitting through classes, because let’s face it—any decent parent is going to make sure their kid stays on top of the curriculum. but how many of them actually bother to make sure their kid keeps up with religious studies if they aren't strictly enforcing it?
I mean, think about it: in math class, you're taught to rely on your own brain and your own skills instead of just cheating off a neighbor, right? in social studies or even during playground time, you learn about being a decent human being and respecting your classmates... you learn it, so why on earth would you take those negative behaviors—things that really start at home—and try to pin them on a school subject?

and honestly, don't blow things out of proportion here; having some kids hanging out in the hallway isn't some deep-seated psychological crisis for the students themselves, it's more like a massive headache for the parents who can't seem to manage their own households properly...
and most of those exact same parents will dutifully sign their kid up for religion class, totally ignoring the fact that there’s always going to be a group of kids stuck in the hall during that period, meaning their child won't exactly be the only one left out.

if people weren't so hypocritical, dishonest, and frankly, a bit malicious, religious education would either be the very first thing on the schedule or the absolute last. no principal or teacher in any American school wants a bunch of restless kids under their watch who might get into trouble in the halls, so why wouldn't they just move the class? but instead, people direct their little revolts toward the subject itself, even though they turn their backs the second it's time to actually stand up for what they claim to believe in... you can't exactly ask believers to renounce their faith just to satisfy a grudge, because if they did that, they wouldn't be believers in the first place, would they? 😉😉

Lawrence Torres56 said:Think about it—seven years of forty-five-minute sessions twice a week—how exactly do you expect that to undo fourteen years of being raised in an environment where they're learning a completely different set of rules twenty-four hours a day?
And why did the Catholic Church fail here?
If anyone dropped the ball, it’s strictly the parents who are setting a terrible example for their kids...
I mean, how can you seriously expect a child to listen to a lesson about loving others as themselves in class, only to head home and see nothing but "every man for himself" from their own parents?

Bullying doesn't stem from true believers or atheists; it comes from the people who flip-flop between the two whenever it suits them.

When you've got kids, especially during those crazy teenage years, home life isn't the only thing shaping them. I'm not trying to excuse parents who say one thing but do another—which, let's face it, happens a lot—but I just wanted to bring up that old saying about how it takes a whole village to raise a child.
And since the whole argument for religious education is that it instills these specific "moral" values, then yeah, it's pretty clear it's failing its main mission.