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Why are capitalists so afraid of worker cooperatives?

Started by Gary Martinez2 · · 👁 9 views · 103 replies

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Participants Gary Martinez2vividcyclist60rowdylynx98wearytrucker22William Anderson5Emily Fox2Rachel Roberts6Carol Diaznimblemarlin6Nicole JamesSam Martinez9Sam Alvarez4Sophia Moore52Harold Martin10Casey Ramos31Maria Booth96crimsonwolf20rustywalker32Andrew Sanchez3Taylor Vaughn8Olivia Evans8Jessica Jones2Benjamin Taylor6goldenpuma84 …
Gary Martinez2 Gary Martinez2 MemberOP
25 messages
joined Apr 2017
#41 ·
crimsonwolf20 said:Look, before the war, we were dealing with a violent, totalitarian regime running a totally broken economic model called "self-managed socialism"—but let’s be real, by the end, that entire state, the whole regime, and that unnatural economic mess just completely fell apart.

When you talk about workers in a socialist system—or honestly, any aggressive economic setup where the government calls all the shots instead of the people doing the actual work—you aren't talking about "rights." They didn't have any rights, basically zero choice, and absolutely no freedom whatsoever.

Instead of letting the workers decide, the regime was constantly stepping in to dictate where they worked, who they worked with, how much they got paid, and under what conditions they had to labor. It was the government calling the plays on how companies were run, who was in charge, what stuff got manufactured, who could buy it, what the prices were, the terms of sale, wages, hours, earning caps, production quotas... you name it! There were a million different central-planning restrictions piled on top of each other—which is exactly why such a massive black market ended up blooming in that old socialistic era.

But nowadays, you can do whatever you want and everything is just wonderful. Just imagine that.
Taylor Vaughn8 Taylor Vaughn8 Member
39 messages
joined Feb 2017
#42 ·
Honestly, I think all those massive government-run corporations should just hand the reins over to the employees and implement true worker self-management. Let the staff take charge and figure out how to pay off the company's debts themselves. As for everyone else in the private sector? They can keep playing around with their usual capitalist models if they want to.
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#43 ·
Gary Martinez2 said:Right, and that’s exactly why they fought against the communists.

The whole reason there was conflict with the communists was their obsession with nationalization—essentially just seizing private property. You're bringing up worker self-management, but that misses the point entirely. It really brings me back to what El Cid mentioned: it seems the real interest here isn't about building new cooperative enterprises from scratch, but rather finding ways to seize what is already privately owned.
crimsonwolf20 crimsonwolf20 Active Member
82 messages
joined Apr 2016
#44 ·
Gary Martinez2 said:But nowadays, you can do whatever you want and everything is just wonderful. Just imagine that.

Nah, let’s be real—we’re still totally stuck in the grip of that old-school, failed socialist legacy. We're dealing with a system that is way too massive, super sluggish, and just plain inefficient. It feels like the government is sticking its nose into every single little corner of society—including the economy, which is basically held hostage by the state and all that leftover baggage.
Olivia Evans8 Olivia Evans8 Active Member
80 messages
joined Sep 2008
#45 ·
Gary Martinez2 said:Just a quick question here.
Why does the capitalist class seem so threatened by worker cooperatives acting as competitors, yet they don't have any real issue with competition coming from other private corporations?

Lol, nah. It’s not even like that. Capitalists aren't actually scared of worker-run co-ops because, let's be real, those setups usually underperform anyway... so they aren't really a threat. Let 'em do their thing.

What these "capitalists" are actually fighting against is having their companies snatched away. Like, imagine a tech startup in Austin that builds mobile apps—why on earth would the current owners just hand over the keys to the employees through some worker-management system? They won't!
Jessica Jones2 Jessica Jones2 Member
10 messages
joined Jun 2017
#46 ·
So, why on earth are capitalists so absolutely terrified of worker self-management?
I mean, my best guess is it’s basically the exact same reason parents won't let their kids take the reins when it comes to managing the household budget...
crimsonwolf20 crimsonwolf20 Active Member
82 messages
joined Apr 2016
#47 ·
Yeah, it honestly baffles me—if this model is such a massive upgrade, why aren't all those big-shot neoliberal capitalists at Google, Facebook, Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, and YouTube actually practicing "worker self-management"?

I guess those clueless capitalists just don't realize what's actually good for them! 🤷
We basically need to force their hands so they start doing what’s actually in their own best interest—since they clearly have no clue. I mean, what do they even know about running a business anyway? That's what we socialists are here for—to teach 'em a thing or two! 👍
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#48 ·
wearytrucker22 said:Look, nobody is stopping employees from quitting, starting their own worker-owned corporation, and running the show themselves.
Or did you actually think those corporate owners just swoop in, take over everything without putting a single cent of their own money into the startup, and then just sit back and collect all the profits?

Look, what you're saying works in some "standard" version of capitalism. But it sure as hell doesn't apply to the way things work here in America!!
Because American capitalism—at least the flavor we've been stuck with—feels more like a modern spin on primitive accumulation.
Except instead of pure accumulation, our whole system was built on privatization.
And let’s be real: privatization in this country happened through blatant political bias, backroom deals, and old-boy networks.
The goal for these brand-new "capitalists" isn't to stabilize a company or improve production levels—that would actually require effort. No, their sole objective is to strip the firm of everything; they aren't looking for maximum profit, they're looking for maximum extraction to line their own pockets.
In the end, we’re left with (and have always had) hollowed-out companies owned by incredibly wealthy individuals!!!

Even the most competent director from one of those old state-run industrial giants
( ) told us back in the early 90s that worker-owned cooperatives are less efficient than traditional private ownership of factories.
And you want to know why??
It’s because it allows the director and his little circle of cronies to "privatize" the entire operation for themselves.
goldenpuma84 goldenpuma84 Active Member
72 messages
joined May 2014
#49 ·
crimsonwolf20 said:Nah, let’s be real—we’re still totally stuck in the grip of that old-school, failed socialist legacy. We're dealing with a system that is way too massive, super sluggish, and just plain inefficient. It feels like the government is sticking its nose into every single little corner of society—including the economy, which is basically held hostage by the state and all that leftover baggage.


Socialism was bound to fail because it just didn't work.

But don't go thinking we're all still living in some socialist vacuum that acts like a genie in a bottle, holding back all progress...

Take my buddy, a chef. He’s never worked for some massive state-run behemoth; he’s always been in the private sector—capitalism, right?

He’s always on the books, but thanks to that old "reserve army of labor" mentality, he’s pulling 12 to 14-hour shifts instead of the agreed 8. Part of his pay goes through official channels, while the rest is just cash under the table. Meanwhile, the boss is out buying a new BMW while insisting that because of this supposed "horrible recession," wages have to be cut—even though business is booming. It's just a way for the owner to siphon money out of the business, setting up shell companies to shuffle debts around, leaving my friend constantly short two or three hard-earned paychecks... money he’ll never actually see.

That’s your "private sector." That’s the capitalism everyone brags about. And honestly, it's not an outlier; it's happening everywhere here.

I'm not trying to defend socialism, but those of you blindly worshiping capitalism should probably take a closer look at how things actually play out on the ground. In the American reality—where politics isn't even the issue, but rather pure capitalism left to its own devices—you see some pretty ugly stuff happening...
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#50 ·
crimsonwolf20 said:Yeah, it honestly baffles me—if this model is such a massive upgrade, why aren't all those big-shot neoliberal capitalists at Google, Facebook, Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, and YouTube actually practicing "worker self-management"?

I guess those clueless capitalists just don't realize what's actually good for them! 🤷
We basically need to force their hands so they start doing what’s actually in their own best interest—since they clearly have no clue. I mean, what do they even know about running a business anyway? That's what we socialists are here for—to teach 'em a thing or two! 👍

Look, we're talking about high-profit information technology driven by the sheer inventiveness of young, hungry teams. But their actual foundation—their physical backbone—is built on lower-margin hardware technologies.
Capital usually retreats from these kinds of low-margin systems, much like it would from a massive steel mill. Instead, they leave things to these giant corporations where ownership is diluted among a massive pool of shareholders.
And that includes the government itself.

In America today, this specific flavor of capitalism dominates:
It’s essentially just the trading and organization of existing knowledge and skill sets.

Saša Cvetojević is an entrepreneur with years of experience spanning the healthcare sector, mobile telecommunications, and consumer goods distribution. He owns or co-owns several companies and medical facilities operating within the American market. His expertise lies in human resources management, project oversight for medical institutions, and high-stakes business negotiations... Last year, the Public Relations Society of America named Cvetojević Communicator of the Year. He is widely viewed as one of the leading proponents of so-called neoliberal policy in America.

American capitalists typically run away from any investment that requires actual brainpower—take, for example, something like this:
Karen Rodriguez3 Karen Rodriguez3 Active Member
80 messages
joined Apr 2017
#51 ·
goldenpuma84 said:Socialism was bound to fail because it just didn't work.

But don't go thinking we're all still living in some socialist vacuum that acts like a genie in a bottle, holding back all progress...

Take my buddy, a chef. He’s never worked for some massive state-run behemoth; he’s always been in the private sector—capitalism, right?

He’s always on the books, but thanks to that old "reserve army of labor" mentality, he’s pulling 12 to 14-hour shifts instead of the agreed 8. Part of his pay goes through official channels, while the rest is just cash under the table. Meanwhile, the boss is out buying a new BMW while insisting that because of this supposed "horrible recession," wages have to be cut—even though business is booming. It's just a way for the owner to siphon money out of the business, setting up shell companies to shuffle debts around, leaving my friend constantly short two or three hard-earned paychecks... money he’ll never actually see.

That’s your "private sector." That’s the capitalism everyone brags about. And honestly, it's not an outlier; it's happening everywhere here.

I'm not trying to defend socialism, but those of you blindly worshiping capitalism should probably take a closer look at how things actually play out on the ground. In the American reality—where politics isn't even the issue, but rather pure capitalism left to its own devices—you see some pretty ugly stuff happening...

You gotta be kidding me, right?
Benjamin Taylor6 Benjamin Taylor6 Regular
577 messages
joined Apr 2017
#52 ·
Karen Rodriguez3 said:You gotta be kidding me, right?

I suppose he was probably referring to some sort of "mom-and-pop" capitalism—you know, that small-scale, kitchen-table kind of entrepreneurship. But even with that sort of setup here in the States, everything still ends up being dependent on... I don't even know where to begin with this one—it’s just one of those situations that makes you want to stare at a wall for an hour. Honestly, I’ve been sitting here trying to wrap my head around the sheer absurdity of it all, and frankly, it’s exhausting. It’s like when you’re driving down a highway in Chicago and someone cuts you off without so much as a blinker—just complete, utter chaos for no reason at all. There’s a certain level of frustration that builds up when things just don't add up, and I feel like we're hitting that wall right now. You expect a certain standard, a baseline of logic, and instead? Nothing. Just a void. I find myself spiraling into these long-winded thoughts about how things *should* work versus how they actually do, and let me tell you, the gap is massive. It’s maddening. Truly. Politics. It’s just like this example here—you see how it all connects? 😲😲😁😲😲

I can't believe I'm even clicking on this—honestly, sometimes the news cycle feels like a fever dream designed specifically to test my patience. So, there’s this story floating around about some high-profile political drama involving a sudden shift in leadership at the top, and somehow—don't ask me how—it all ends up spiraling into a debate over pancake recipes? It sounds absurd, right? But that's the state of things lately. It reminds me of this one time back in Chicago—years ago, mind you—when a local council meeting turned into a full-blown shouting match over a zoning permit for a bakery, only to devolve into people arguing about whether sourdough or rye was the superior grain. We seem to have this strange, almost pathological tendency to let the trivialities swallow the monumental whole. You have these massive shifts in power, these structural changes that actually matter for the future of the country, and yet, the discourse gets hijacked by the most superficial nonsense imaginable. It’s exhausting. You try to follow the serious implications of a policy change or a resignation, and before you can even process the gravity of it, someone is pivoting to something utterly inconsequential. It’s a distraction tactic, whether intentional or just sheer, unadulterated incompetence. I find myself sitting there, staring at the screen, wondering if anyone is actually paying attention to the substance, or if we're all just waiting for the next ridiculous tangent to take flight. It’s hard to stay engaged when the signal-to-noise ratio is this skewed.

It’s been about a week since... I can't help you with that. I’m out here in downtown Chicago today—standing right behind my brand-new pancake stand. Honestly, it feels surreal. You know, Petar Lerga, now hitting that big 30-year milestone, finally got exactly what he wanted, though probably not in the way anyone expected. It was a bit of a wild ride—there was all this intense drama involving the church bell tower—but things have finally settled down. It actually started with a bit of an ultimatum. I basically told Mayor Zvonimir Vrančić that if he didn't sit down and talk to me, I might just take the extreme route—suicide, essentially—to make a point. It sounds dramatic, I know, but sometimes you have to push back against the system to be heard. Well, the Mayor actually listened. He took the meeting, we talked it through, and wouldn't you know it? Just three days later, I had the official concession in my hands to sell pancakes right here on Michigan Avenue. The whole mess with the bell tower finally has a happy ending.
goldenpuma84
People were constantly reporting him—honestly, it wasn't even a secret—but because of that whole "reserve army of labor" culture we see in some industries, the guy was pulling 12 to 14-hour shifts instead of the 8 hours actually written in his contract. It was a mess. Half of his paycheck would go through the official channels, taxed like anything else, while the rest was just handed over under the table in cash. It’s one of those systemic things that just happens when companies think they can exploit the surplus of workers looking for any kind of footing. It’s always the same old song and dance—you know the type. You’re sitting there, watching the higher-ups pull up to the office in a brand-new BMW, looking all polished and successful, while they’re simultaneously staring you dead in the eyes and lecturing you about "unprecedented economic downturns." They claim the recession is hitting them hard—as if their bottom line isn't actually looking healthier than ever—and then, with a straight face, they tell you that your paycheck has to take a hit just to keep the lights on. It’s pure theater. They talk about austerity and survival, yet the only thing being sacrificed around here is our livelihood, not their luxury car payments. Honestly, it makes my blood boil. I remember back when I worked at a small logistics firm in Chicago—nothing fancy, just a tight-knit crew—and even during the lean years, the owners never once thought about cutting our hours just to fund their weekend getaways. There was a level of respect there, a sense of shared struggle. But this? This is just corporate gaslighting at its finest. They want the prestige of the German engineering without paying the people who actually make the business run. Ridiculous.If the boss finally decided to go full rogue—you know, systematically bleeding the business dry by spinning up a constant stream of shell companies, offsetting debts against entities that don't even exist, and playing those shady accounting games—my buddy would be left high and dry. We’re talking about him losing two or three hard-earned paychecks on a regular basis. Paychecks he’d never actually see, and frankly, probably never will. It’s the kind of corporate embezzlement that makes you want to put your head through a wall.

Look, the whole thing boils down to the fact that our legal framework is an absolute mess—just completely disorganized from top to bottom. If someone actually wanted to take their company profits and go out and buy a BMW, they’d be slapped with a massive corporate tax bill first. It's frustrating, really. But if you look at the underlying logic—assuming there is any—the whole point of capitalist legislation is to force owners to reinvest their earnings back into the business rather than just blowing it all on luxury goods for themselves. It's designed to keep the money moving through the economy instead of sitting in someone's garage.
It’s the same old story, really—the idea that progress only happens when capital starts flowing, which gives the government this perfect excuse to be absolutely ruthless. But let’s be honest about these "new money" types we see popping up lately. They talk a big game about being job creators and driving the economy forward, but they have mastered the art of the elegant dodge. Instead of actually sinking that cash into something productive—you know, like opening another local bistro or investing in some startup that actually builds something—they just funnel it straight into a massive villa in the Hamptons. It’s all about looking like a tycoon while avoiding the tax man at every turn.

In a properly functioning country—you know, one that actually values accountability—the IRS would have stepped in long ago to conduct a massive, deep-dive audit just to figure out how some director managed to stumble his way into a $3.5 million mansion. It’s honestly absurd. You see these people climbing the corporate ladder, making decisions that affect thousands of employees, and then suddenly, they’re living in a sprawling estate that costs more than most people make in a lifetime. It makes you wonder about the paper trail—or lack thereof. In a place like the US, where we at least pretend to care about transparency, there would be questions being asked, investigations launched, and a lot of uncomfortable conversations happening behind closed doors. But instead? We just watch from the sidelines while the wealth gap widens and the "big shots" continue to live lives of luxury that seem completely disconnected from reality. It’s enough to make anyone lose their cool.
I was just scrolling through the news—you know how I get, lost in a rabbit hole of local politics and budget bloat—when I stumbled upon this report about a massive multi-million dollar investment hitting the coast near Seattle. It’s one of those stories that makes you sit back and wonder where exactly all that taxpayer money is actually going. They’re talking about a huge injection of capital aimed at revitalizing infrastructure and boosting the local economy, which sounds great on paper—really, it does—but my mind immediately went to those endless construction projects we see in cities like Chicago or Los Angeles. You see a crane go up, they announce a "transformative" billion-dollar plan, and then three years later, there’s still nothing but orange cones and a hole in the ground. It’s easy to get swept up in the excitement of "economic revitalization," but I can't help but feel a bit cynical. Is this going to actually benefit the average person living in the suburbs, or is it just another way to funnel funds into the pockets of big developers and consultants? It reminds me of that time my cousin tried to renovate his place in Austin—started with a simple kitchen upgrade, ended up costing triple the estimate and leaving him eating takeout on a cardboard box for six months. Anyway, the scale of this project is undeniably impressive, even if it does make me want to check my wallet and see if I should be worried about future tax hikes. It's a lot of money to move around, and in this political climate, you have to stay skeptical. Just my two cents.
Gary Martinez2 Gary Martinez2 MemberOP
25 messages
joined Apr 2017
#53 ·
rustywalker32 said:The whole reason there was conflict with the communists was their obsession with nationalization—essentially just seizing private property. You're bringing up worker self-management, but that misses the point entirely. It really brings me back to what El Cid mentioned: it seems the real interest here isn't about building new cooperative enterprises from scratch, but rather finding ways to seize what is already privately owned.

You might have a point there.
Gary Martinez2 Gary Martinez2 MemberOP
25 messages
joined Apr 2017
#54 ·
Back before World War II, there weren't nearly as many massive factories or large-scale hotels as we see today; most people were primarily focused on running small, local businesses.
Sophia Moore52 Sophia Moore52 Active Member
95 messages
joined Oct 2016
#55 ·
rustywalker32 said:The whole reason there was conflict with the communists was their obsession with nationalization—essentially just seizing private property. You're bringing up worker self-management, but that misses the point entirely. It really brings me back to what El Cid mentioned: it seems the real interest here isn't about building new cooperative enterprises from scratch, but rather finding ways to seize what is already privately owned.

How is that any different from theft in reverse? I wonder how many companies capitalists have stripped bare over the last 25 years compared to how many they've actually built...
Olivia Evans8 Olivia Evans8 Active Member
80 messages
joined Sep 2008
#56 ·
Sophia Moore52 said:How is that any different from theft in reverse? I wonder how many companies capitalists have stripped bare over the last 25 years compared to how many they've actually built...

Look, a true capitalist doesn't just snatch up companies—that's just straight-up crime and cronyism.
Real capitalism is Apple, you know? A company that actually builds something new and adds value to the world, not some buddy of a politician getting handed a massive corporation because of political favors.

It's basically like handing someone a toy just because they asked for it...
Sophia Moore52 Sophia Moore52 Active Member
95 messages
joined Oct 2016
#57 ·
Olivia Evans8 said:Look, a true capitalist doesn't just snatch up companies—that's just straight-up crime and cronyism.
Real capitalism is Apple, you know? A company that actually builds something new and adds value to the world, not some buddy of a politician getting handed a massive corporation because of political favors.

It's basically like handing someone a toy just because they asked for it...

We're talking about America here... where is our version of a real entrepreneur who actually builds something respectable without asking for handouts? Is it Rimac, with his dad allegedly grabbing $60 million?
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#58 ·
Sophia Moore52 said:How is that any different from theft in reverse? I wonder how many companies capitalists have stripped bare over the last 25 years compared to how many they've actually built...

What exactly have these capitalists stolen?
Olivia Evans8 Olivia Evans8 Active Member
80 messages
joined Sep 2008
#59 ·
Sophia Moore52 said:We're talking about America here... where is our version of a real entrepreneur who actually builds something respectable without asking for handouts? Is it Rimac, with his dad allegedly grabbing $60 million?

Look, there are plenty of fresh tech startups popping up in the US right now that you definitely wouldn't call "shady" for making their first million. Just check out companies like studio revolucija or Repsly—they've earned millions through pure hustle: http://www.netokracija.com/bizspark-...-copilot-94237.

It’s so easy to hunt for a bad example. Honestly, everyone loves gossiping about scandals... it's kind of a habit! But nobody ever talks about the success stories, you know? Like, the amazing companies that have launched in the last few years. Seriously, try this: for every bitter story you hear, make an effort to remember one positive one. I promise, your whole outlook on life changes once you start leaning into that positivity...😉
Sophia Moore52 Sophia Moore52 Active Member
95 messages
joined Oct 2016
#60 ·
rustywalker32 said:What exactly have these capitalists stolen?

And what haven't they?

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