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Are LGBT groups and their lobbyists making inappropriate statements?

Started by redbear12 · · 👁 13 views · 221 replies

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Participants redbear12stormymoose84Jessica Kelly4Carol DiazJoseph White5Richard Wilson4Benjamin Taylor6bluerider63Ryan Ward2Jack Cook7brightwolf85brightheron64Jerry Gonzalez65restlesscrane152Casey Mitchell72Sophia Evans2rowdytiger13Daniel Bailey39Gregory Hall66rowdyhound5wiredmarlin43bluecyclist64Jason Campbell70Steven Wood72 …
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#181 ·
Jessica Kelly4 said:Nah, that's a danger zone for me—total Bermuda Triangle territory.

You already tricked me into a debate in the social sciences section once, and I ended up getting more bans in a couple of weeks than I have in all my years on this forum. Down in the political subreddits, people don't take kindly to different opinions. 😁

Come on, Jessica Kelly4, tell us the truth—we're pretty liberal here in the North, aren't we? Unlike those... uh... folks down South...😬

Wait, was the South the magnetic north pole or the south one again? 🤔
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_pole
Jessica Kelly4 Jessica Kelly4 Active Member
141 messages
joined Jun 2016
#182 ·
bluecyclist64 said:Well, at least I can't call you a complete Neanderthal or an idiot.

Look, friend, here is what actually interests me.

About fifty years ago, a man could earn enough to support a family of four, while the wife stayed home as a 🤣 homemaker.

Think about how much of a scam that really is—women have the right to work now too, so now both the husband and the wife have to grind away for the EXACT SAME PAYCHECK!

Hello???

Economics and money are things I just can't seem to wrap my head around.
I've been closely following a fascinating topic regarding how the banking elites rob us and how they've actually been using the same fiat currency principles for hundreds upon hundreds of years. It all happens through cycles of debt and chaos.

I'm also struggling with the question you asked, just on a more fundamental level. We have memory, and for heaven's sake, the Bible alone distills thousands of years of experience, already describing the fiat system. We have the power of the masses, we have smart people on our side... and yet somehow we always end up getting robbed blind. Century after century, culture to culture, political system to political system, it doesn't matter—it's always the same thing over and over again... how is that even possible?!? And then they package it all up nicely with some "ideals," tie a red ribbon on it, and by the time we realize there's nothing in the gift, it's already over. 🤷
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#183 ·
Jessica Kelly4 said:Economics and money are things I just can't seem to wrap my head around.
I've been closely following a fascinating topic regarding how the banking elites rob us and how they've actually been using the same fiat currency principles for hundreds upon hundreds of years. It all happens through cycles of debt and chaos.

I'm also struggling with the question you asked, just on a more fundamental level. We have memory, and for heaven's sake, the Bible alone distills thousands of years of experience, already describing the fiat system. We have the power of the masses, we have smart people on our side... and yet somehow we always end up getting robbed blind. Century after century, culture to culture, political system to political system, it doesn't matter—it's always the same thing over and over again... how is that even possible?!? And then they package it all up nicely with some "ideals," tie a red ribbon on it, and by the time we realize there's nothing in the gift, it's already over. 🤷

The thing is, buddy, it's all about
your perception.

Because of all that old-school propaganda—whether it's communist, Christian, or Islamic—you're convinced you're being robbed.

But once you strip away the ideals, the flags, the bows, the crosses, the dollar signs, and those dusty history textbooks, everything becomes crystal clear.

They mislead you specifically so they can pick your pocket.
😍
Jessica Kelly4 Jessica Kelly4 Active Member
141 messages
joined Jun 2016
#184 ·
Jack Cook7 said:The thing is, buddy, it's all about
your perception.

Because of all that old-school propaganda—whether it's communist, Christian, or Islamic—you're convinced you're being robbed.

But once you strip away the ideals, the flags, the bows, the crosses, the dollar signs, and those dusty history textbooks, everything becomes crystal clear.

They mislead you specifically so they can pick your pocket.
😍

The worst part is, the more I dive into anthropology, the more I see how much of it is pure illusion. Civilization is basically just a fragile plant...

It only reinforces my conservatism. There's an old engineering rule: if it isn't broken, don't touch it. And if you do have to tinker, you do it inch by inch, checking feedback a million times. Especially when you're messing with fundamental structures. Like marriage... 🙂
Amanda Hughes37 Amanda Hughes37 Active Member
145 messages
joined Apr 2016
#185 ·
Jessica Kelly4 said:Nah, that's a danger zone for me—total Bermuda Triangle territory.

You already tricked me into a debate in the social sciences section once, and I ended up getting more bans in a couple of weeks than I have in all my years on this forum. Down in the political subreddits, people don't take kindly to different opinions. 😁

Religious studies in school😁... those were the days. We used to get hit with such a creative barrage of insults😍
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#186 ·
Jessica Kelly4 said:The worst part is, the more I dive into anthropology, the more I see how much of it is pure illusion. Civilization is basically just a fragile plant...

It only reinforces my conservatism. There's an old engineering rule: if it isn't broken, don't touch it. And if you do have to tinker, you do it inch by inch, checking feedback a million times. Especially when you're messing with fundamental structures. Like marriage... 🙂

What we're looking at here is a super rational way to tackle a specific problem called social relationships.

Take marriage, for example... 🙂

Aha! Right there! That's the exact moment where those "rationally defined" relationships veer straight into irrational territory. Man, I gotta laugh because you nailed the point perfectly. 👍

Kudos to you, Mr. Mestar.
ironmoose6 ironmoose6 Member
42 messages
joined Jan 2016
#187 ·
Sophia Evans2 said:The whole point of the LGBTQ+ movement is just to get equal rights alongside the heterosexual majority.

But they actually do have the same rights as everyone else—things like marriage (granted, with a partner of the opposite sex) or having children (their own, obviously), and so on.☕>
bluecyclist64 bluecyclist64 Regular
369 messages
joined Oct 2011
#188 ·
I've been reflecting on the current state of affairs lately, and I find myself increasingly weary of the constant noise surrounding these systemic shifts. It feels as though we are perpetually bracing for a storm that never quite breaks, yet leaves us perpetually damp and exhausted. There was an instance a few years back—I remember sitting in a small diner outside of Chicago—where the conversation turned to the inevitable decline of local institutions, much like what we see discussed today. Back then, it felt like idle speculation, but looking at the trajectory we’re on now, those observations seem almost prescient. It is easy to get swept up in the outrage, but I prefer to take a step back and look at the structural integrity of our society. We often mistake temporary turbulence for permanent change, failing to realize that the foundations themselves are being subtly reshaped while we argue over the decor. It requires a certain level of stoicism to navigate this without losing one's sense of perspective. One simply has to accept that things rarely go according to plan, and that cynicism, while often justified, shouldn't be allowed to settle into a permanent residence in one's mind. kaže:
If you actually go on the record with a statement like that, there isn't a single court within the European Union that wouldn't come down hard on you.

It’s an interesting observation. I had already begun to suspect that our judicial system has pivoted toward exclusively defending the LGBTQ+ community.

It hasn’t happened just yet, but I’ve already made my position clear: this is coming. If they continue this senseless, arbitrary pattern of labeling anyone who dares to hold a differing opinion, things are going to reach a breaking point very soon.

What exactly are you basing that assertion on? I’m curious to know what leads you to believe that such a shift could happen so prematurely.

I assume the core message of the play is that love conquers all—is that a fair assessment?
Is a poster that insults the feelings of believers truly just "art"? It’s a question that seems to resurface whenever someone decides to push the envelope, though I suspect we all know the answer depends entirely on who is holding the brush—and who is being offended. I remember sitting in a small café back in Seattle a few years ago, watching a heated debate break out over a local gallery exhibit. One side was shouting about constitutional rights and the sanctity of creative expression, while the other was rightfully incensed by what they saw as a blatant mockery of their faith. At the time, I found myself caught in the middle, wondering where the line actually sits. Is there a point where provocative commentary stops being an intellectual challenge and starts being nothing more than cheap, calculated disrespect? To me, art should ideally aim to provoke thought, to stir the soul, or even to unsettle us. But there is a distinct difference between challenging a dogma and simply throwing mud at a sacred symbol just to see who flinches. When a piece of work exists solely to wound a specific group of people, I struggle to see the "artistic merit" in it. It feels less like a dialogue and more like a tantrum. Of course, the legal protections here in the States are robust, and under the First Amendment, you can certainly print almost anything you want. But freedom of speech doesn't mean we have to pretend that everything produced is profound. Sometimes, it’s just offensive. And calling it "art" feels like a convenient way to dodge accountability for being needlessly cruel.
Understood.

You really should have sat through the performance yourself before jumping to conclusions about the message. If you had actually watched it, you’d see that it doesn't promote hatred or violence at all—in fact, it's quite the exact opposite.

Let’s consider an alternative scenario, where we essentially flip the script:
Someone decides to stage a play where a gay SS officer and a lesbian Communist commissar fall passionately in love. The supposed moral of the story? Love conquers all. It’s the exact same tired trope found in that production of yours.😁

This isn't exactly a message about "my" production, but then again, it’s much easier to shout slogans and type out political manifestos than it is to actually carve out some time to sit in a theater seat, from what I can see.☕

We might as well just design a propaganda poster at this point. Picture it: a leading lesbian activist and a top gay activist locked in a passionate embrace, while above them, a Nazi flag and a proletarian banner hang together like a single curtain.

I have a question for you—would you personally view that as an insult, or would you consider it a form of "art"?

I’m struggling to follow the logic here—who exactly is supposed to be the target of this offense?

Beyond that, the depictions of the Virgin Mary on the poster weren't even in an embrace, let alone anything passionate. And don't even get me started on that "lesbian clinch" comment—it's just a textbook example of how a Catholic brain actually functions.

You know, my mother—who is a deeply peaceful and incredibly tolerant woman of faith—simply couldn't wrap her head around it. She couldn't fathom what kind of profane hatred could possibly drive someone to design a poster like that.
Even my old man—who, to be perfectly honest, couldn't care less about the Church or its clergy—has always maintained a certain level of respect for other people's religious convictions.

I honestly cannot fathom an intelligent person finding anything but offense in a poster like that. I’m sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around it.
I honestly cannot wrap my head around how anyone could look at this poster and see nothing but hatred. It seems to me that people who are fundamentally incapable of existing without malice tend to assume that everyone else is just as soaked in it as they are.

So you're claiming this isn't a climate of terror?

No, it isn't a climate of terror.

Look, even your gay acquaintances would agree with my view that this kind of aggressive, insulting display is totally counterproductive.
Just tell me, what would actually happen to those acquaintances of yours if they spoke up publicly—if they voiced their opposition to being represented by such a small, loud mob parading around?
They’d be branded homophobes too, and frankly, it gets even worse than that...

The thing is, they *do* speak up publicly, just not through the mainstream media. And they don't really feel the need to, because any sensible person realizes that this tiny, noisy group doesn't actually represent them.
I actually recall hearing little Dorian say something along those lines during a televised interview, and naturally, nobody labeled him a homophobe.

Ultimately, I find the sheer cowardice and fear displayed by those opposing same-sex marriage completely baffling. I truly don't get it. If some random pedestrian walked up to me and called me a homophobe, I’d probably just tell them how cute they are and give them a wink. I'd just laugh it off.
bluecyclist64 bluecyclist64 Regular
369 messages
joined Oct 2011
#189 ·
MisMali As I was saying:
I have never once, in any of my discussions on these topics, devalued or belittled anyone within the LGBT community. To use the term "transgender" as a way to take a swipe at priests tells you everything you need to know about your own perspective regarding that community.

If I approach a conversation with civility—avoiding insults, staying above the fray, and refusing to resort to cheap shots—then I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn't receive that same level of respect in return. To me, it’s a matter of basic principle; I don't believe I deserve anything less than the courtesy I extend to others. At the end of the day, manners aren't some abstract concept you can pick and choose; people simply treat others based on the standard of etiquette they were raised with. 😉

What value does your supposedly refined demeanor actually hold when it’s built on a foundation of lies?

We’ve reached page ten, and yet, not a single person has actually provided a concrete example of LGBT hate speech.
Reading this feels exactly like sitting through one of Folkiše Beobahter's columns.
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#190 ·
bluecyclist64 said:
MisMali As I was saying:
I have never once, in any of my discussions on these topics, devalued or belittled anyone within the LGBT community. To use the term "transgender" as a way to take a swipe at priests tells you everything you need to know about your own perspective regarding that community.

If I approach a conversation with civility—avoiding insults, staying above the fray, and refusing to resort to cheap shots—then I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn't receive that same level of respect in return. To me, it’s a matter of basic principle; I don't believe I deserve anything less than the courtesy I extend to others. At the end of the day, manners aren't some abstract concept you can pick and choose; people simply treat others based on the standard of etiquette they were raised with. 😉

What value does your supposedly refined demeanor actually hold when it’s built on a foundation of lies?

We’ve reached page ten, and yet, not a single person has actually provided a concrete example of LGBT hate speech.
Reading this feels exactly like sitting through one of Folkiše Beobahter's columns.

Look, I gave an example of hate speech directed at others. That was my point, and it ties right into what everyone else is talking about.

The actual title I started with was "Should we condemn the hate speech from LGBT groups and their reps and lobbyists," but then the mods stepped in after someone complained and changed it to "Should we condemn inappropriate statements from LGBT groups and their reps and lobbyists."

Notice how they didn't even bother fixing the core issue with the wording; they just focused on the "polite" version. Seriously, go ahead, use your imagination and try to find where the actual "correction" was needed. 👍

If you're gonna bring up Folkiše Beobahter, maybe mention who actually started the thread first, and then tell me—how exactly am I supposed to be the fascist here? 😍
rowdytiger13 rowdytiger13 Regular
378 messages
joined Oct 2018
#191 ·
Casey Mitchell72 said:Maybe a few guys still feel a little threatened, but honestly, they still love their wives just fine.😁

Yeah, I saw this coming from a mile away.
You mentioned how women fought hard enough for their rights, but clearly there’s still plenty of room left for the feminist struggle.
It’d be way better if an actual feminist explained the goals and reasons behind the movement, because honestly, I feel like a bull in a china shop when it comes to this stuff. It leads to a lot of misunderstandings, which is clearly happening here.
The feminist movement isn't actually about redefining marriage as a union between a man and a woman. That whole mess was stirred up by groups on the other side of the aisle, and since LGBT organizations felt directly attacked by that initiative, the feminist groups stepped in to back them up.
The feminist movement is fighting to redefine the roles within a traditional marriage—not the definition itself. From what I know, the literal definition isn't even their main concern.

Look, we aren't really talking about feminism here, so we're drifting off-topic, but let me add that feminism isn't just one single ideology. It’s more like a collection of different ideologies, which means there are different types of feminism. Some focus on a woman's status in society. The first wave was all about voting rights, the second was about emancipation, and the third wave—which is what we see today—tries to negate gender entirely. A huge part of modern feminism focuses on LGBT rights, specifically for lesbians.
You asked me to list some lesbian feminist activists, so here’s a link to wiki. Most third-wave feminists are either openly gay or have LGBT rights and gender ideology at the center of everything they do. The activist feminists who aren't lesbians express their feminism differently, have different goals, and fight for them in a totally different way than the ones who are.

There's also a massive rift between lesbian and hetero feminists; check out this example.
You're spot on when you say the feminist movement has nothing to do with redefining marriage as a man-woman union. I'd just add that while the hetero feminist movement doesn't care about that, the lesbian movement definitely does.

Sorry again for going off-topic! 😉

I was thinking about America, and the names that come to mind are mostly hetero women: Sanja Saravanka, Nadezda Cacinovic, Vedrana Rudan, Vesna Kesic, Snjezana Pranjic Samardzija, Ankica Cakardic... pretty much everyone except Sanja Juras.
I don't know how things look elsewhere, but the fact is our activist scene is lagging far behind what's happening internationally (and that goes beyond just LGBT and feminist issues).
In our neck of the woods, 90% of feminists are hetero women who cooperate closely with LGBTQ+ organizations, supporting one another, including regarding this marriage initiative.
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#192 ·
rowdytiger13 said:I was thinking about America, and the names that come to mind are mostly hetero women: Sanja Saravanka, Nadezda Cacinovic, Vedrana Rudan, Vesna Kesic, Snjezana Pranjic Samardzija, Ankica Cakardic... pretty much everyone except Sanja Juras.
I don't know how things look elsewhere, but the fact is our activist scene is lagging far behind what's happening internationally (and that goes beyond just LGBT and feminist issues).
In our neck of the woods, 90% of feminists are hetero women who cooperate closely with LGBTQ+ organizations, supporting one another, including regarding this marriage initiative.

Wait, did I get that right? You're saying the American feminist scene is totally behind because the key players aren't even lesbians yet?

Well, let's fix that RIGHT NOW! Seriously, the US government needs to step up and fund a total makeover of the American feminist movement immediately. Because look, folks, these "old school" types we have now? Come on... most of these women are 50 plus! I mean, seriously, has anyone ever actually seen a lesbian older than 18? Huh? Anyone?

Honestly, I think we should just jack the sales tax from like 7% up to at least 88% just to encourage girls to finally embrace their true impulses without feeling judged by society. 👍
Casey Mitchell72 Casey Mitchell72 Member
31 messages
joined Oct 2013
#193 ·
Quincy:
I'm just dropping by to say hi! Hope everyone is having a killer day. kaže:
They say it out loud all the time, just not in the news. Honestly, they don't even need to bother—anyone with half a brain knows that tiny, noisy crowd doesn't represent them.
Where are they even saying that out loud?

It’s honestly wild. Even if you're sharp, it's impossible to ignore that this loud little crowd doesn't actually speak for anyone. Every single time someone calls them out—just like right now—they turn it around on the critics. They start throwing labels around, calling people liars, labeling any critique as "hate speech," and then acting like everyone who disagrees is just some bigot or a religious extremist. It's such a joke.

Quincy:
I don't know what to tell you guys, but I'm totally lost on this one! kaže:
What's the point of acting all classy and polite if you're just gonna lie to my face?
You gotta have some basic decency if you actually want to get anything done through real conversation. Constant insults and low-blows just kill the vibe—it’s totally counterproductive, kind of like trying to talk sense into that loudmouth crowd at a Friday night football game.

Quincy:
We’re ten pages deep and still haven't seen a single actual example of LGBT hate speech. Seriously?
Man, this feels just like reading Folkiše Beobahter...
Last time I'm saying this: those examples are yours to judge. You said you don't see any hate speech or anything controversial in them, and hey, that's your call.
But that thing you said...I don't see any hate speech here, so there isn't any. Period. That's just how I see it!Just because they say so doesn't mean it's set in stone or that we all have to just roll over and take it.
So quit trolling me just because my examples don't fit your vibe.
rowdytiger13 rowdytiger13 Regular
378 messages
joined Oct 2018
#194 ·
Jack Cook7 said:Wait, did I get that right? You're saying the American feminist scene is totally behind because the key players aren't even lesbians yet?

Well, let's fix that RIGHT NOW! Seriously, the US government needs to step up and fund a total makeover of the American feminist movement immediately. Because look, folks, these "old school" types we have now? Come on... most of these women are 50 plus! I mean, seriously, has anyone ever actually seen a lesbian older than 18? Huh? Anyone?

Honestly, I think we should just jack the sales tax from like 7% up to at least 88% just to encourage girls to finally embrace their true impulses without feeling judged by society. 👍

You didn't.😁
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#195 ·
rowdytiger13 said:You didn't.😁

Whatever, man. At least they won't hike up taxes just to subsidize some eighteen-year-old girls acting out their "natural urges."

The male kind. 😬
Casey Mitchell72 Casey Mitchell72 Member
31 messages
joined Oct 2013
#196 ·
rowdytiger13 said:I was thinking about America, and the names that come to mind are mostly hetero women: Sanja Saravanka, Nadezda Cacinovic, Vedrana Rudan, Vesna Kesic, Snjezana Pranjic Samardzija, Ankica Cakardic... pretty much everyone except Sanja Juras.
I don't know how things look elsewhere, but the fact is our activist scene is lagging far behind what's happening internationally (and that goes beyond just LGBT and feminist issues).
In our neck of the woods, 90% of feminists are hetero women who cooperate closely with LGBTQ+ organizations, supporting one another, including regarding this marriage initiative.

We’re all pretty familiar with what these ladies do, especially the loud ones like Sarnavka or Rudanica. They've been in the media for years, always jumping into whatever big news story is trending, and they lead these intense battles against the church. It feels like they just use the LGBT community as a convenient shield to throw stones at everything else. Even Ankica Cakardic openly pushes to scrap the institution of marriage, and what's easier than using the LGBT crowd to do it? They act all radical and anarchist, commenting on every little thing while totally ignoring actual women's rights. Long story short—it's all fake. 😍
rowdytiger13 rowdytiger13 Regular
378 messages
joined Oct 2018
#197 ·
Casey Mitchell72 said:We’re all pretty familiar with what these ladies do, especially the loud ones like Sarnavka or Rudanica. They've been in the media for years, always jumping into whatever big news story is trending, and they lead these intense battles against the church. It feels like they just use the LGBT community as a convenient shield to throw stones at everything else. Even Ankica Cakardic openly pushes to scrap the institution of marriage, and what's easier than using the LGBT crowd to do it? They act all radical and anarchist, commenting on every little thing while totally ignoring actual women's rights. Long story short—it's all fake. 😍

That’s more of a fundamental worldview issue. You think it has nothing to do with women's rights because you're sitting on the right side of the spectrum—the side that views traditional values as sacred and wants to protect them at all costs.
They’re on the left, believing those traditions aren't sacred and absolutely need to change. It's a gap that isn't getting bridged anytime soon.
By the way, I think it's a bit uncalled for to claim Saravanka does nothing for women just to chase headlines. As for the others, I don't know their work well enough to comment, but regardless of how much you disagree with her ideology, saying that about Saravanka feels cheap.
Amanda Hughes37 Amanda Hughes37 Active Member
145 messages
joined Apr 2016
#198 ·
Casey Mitchell72 said:We’re all pretty familiar with what these ladies do, especially the loud ones like Sarnavka or Rudanica. They've been in the media for years, always jumping into whatever big news story is trending, and they lead these intense battles against the church. It feels like they just use the LGBT community as a convenient shield to throw stones at everything else. Even Ankica Cakardic openly pushes to scrap the institution of marriage, and what's easier than using the LGBT crowd to do it? They act all radical and anarchist, commenting on every little thing while totally ignoring actual women's rights. Long story short—it's all fake. 😍

God forbid you ever actually need Sarnavka's help... Don't talk nonsense—there are plenty of women out there who haven't lost their minds, people you could actually knock on the door of at 3 AM, unlike Sanji Sarnavka.
Casey Mitchell72 Casey Mitchell72 Member
31 messages
joined Oct 2013
#199 ·
rowdytiger13 said:That’s more of a fundamental worldview issue. You think it has nothing to do with women's rights because you're sitting on the right side of the spectrum—the side that views traditional values as sacred and wants to protect them at all costs.
They’re on the left, believing those traditions aren't sacred and absolutely need to change. It's a gap that isn't getting bridged anytime soon.
By the way, I think it's a bit uncalled for to claim Saravanka does nothing for women just to chase headlines. As for the others, I don't know their work well enough to comment, but regardless of how much you disagree with her ideology, saying that about Saravanka feels cheap.

Look, I'm not saying traditional values are set in stone and can't ever change. They do change! Just look at marriage today compared to back in the day—women head to work just like men do, it's totally normal for a husband to grab the vacuum, and guys even go to postpartum appointments. Totally fine by me. The only thing I actually consider "sacred" is protecting the core foundation of marriage itself. As for everything else? I'm all for evolving tradition.

By the way, I think it's pretty low to say Sanja Saravanka does nothing for women just to chase headlines. I don't know enough about what the other ladies are up to to comment, but regardless of how much you disagree with her on a global scale, attacking her like that is just nasty.

I mean, Sarnavka definitely does good stuff for women and kids dealing with domestic violence, so I'll give her that. But that doesn't mean I agree with a whole bunch of her other takes.
Jack Cook7 Jack Cook7 Regular
376 messages
joined Aug 2017
#200 ·
Amanda Hughes37 said:God forbid you ever actually need Sarnavka's help... Don't talk nonsense—there are plenty of women out there who haven't lost their minds, people you could actually knock on the door of at 3 AM, unlike Sanji Sarnavka.

And what about those exhausted, freezing men knocking on doors at 3 in the morning? Are they supposed to go knock on Saint Peter's door instead?

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