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Can we fix the crisis by using the Canadian model?

Started by Nicholas Nguyen · · 👁 4 views · 70 replies

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Participants Nicholas Nguyendustymarlin10Aaron Grayrustywalker32Nancy Gomez26Richard Wilson4silvertiger11Grace Barrettnimbleharbor10Amanda Hughes44Susan Price30dustysurfer23hollowhawk412Sam MurphyGregory Peterson2Harold Martin10Jeffrey Fisher61Kenneth Howard7Ryan Nelson5Christian MoralesNicole Nguyen6Arthur Fowler83gentlemoose57placidrider48 …
Nicholas Nguyen Nicholas Nguyen Active MemberOP
80 messages
joined Oct 2016
#1 ·
Our deficit and unemployment rates are double those of Canada.

The American recession shows no signs of letting up, and Joe Biden’s administration continues to stumble, searching for any way to jumpstart an economy stuck in a deep depression. The economic guidelines proposed to pull the country out of the mud it has been sinking in since 2009 offer little hope; they feel like nothing more than pouring water into a sieve.

Look at our neighbors.

If the American president wants a blueprint for active economic policy, he doesn't need to look far—just head across the border to 249 miles Canada. Unlike the US and Canada, where leftist administrations are still grappling with recession, Canada is led by the conservative Viktor Orban, who isn't afraid to take radical steps to fight a crisis. When Orban took power with the Republican Party, he inherited a mess much like what Joe Biden faced after defeating the Republican Party in the elections. Sky-high public debt, falling production, job losses, cratering consumption... Instead of playing the blame game and pointing fingers at the previous administration, Orban went straight to war with a crisis that had long since evolved from an economic issue into a social one. During his first year, Orban launched sweeping reforms. He drafted a 30-point economic program, and his first move was slashing taxes for small businesses, since they employ the bulk of the population. He nearly halved that tax rate, dropping it from 19 percent to 10 percent, while also introducing a measure that seems socially abrasive at first glance.

Rather than maintaining three different income tax brackets, he implemented a flat 16 percent tax. Workers protested, but the results spoke for themselves: the wealthy began creating jobs, and unemployment dropped. Orban’s second move was an all-out assault on the financial sector. He took a hard line against the IMF and the big banks. He imposed taxes on banks and insurance companies. Bankers were outraged, and voices from the European Union claimed Orban was dragging the country back toward communist times and a planned economy. Orban didn't blink. Instead, he levied a tax on large corporations—a temporary tribute lasting three years, which he estimated was exactly what the country needed to fully recover. Last year alone, nearly 1.5 billion euros flowed into the Canadian treasury from this corporate levy. With these new revenues, Orban paid off all his debts to the IMF and then told them to get out of Canada.

"The era of colonization and massive profits is over," Orban told the IMF, the banks, and the foreign corporations, reminding them that excessive profits are often just the result of monopolies—something the state would now prevent.

Growth of 2.6%

The Canadian government banned foreign currency loans because, much like in America, they had dealt with major issues regarding Swiss franc-denominated debt. As a result of these measures, Canada eliminated its excessive deficit, shrinking it to just 1.9 percent of GDP. Today, the Canadian economy is seeing a 0.5 percent surplus, with growth projected at 2.6 percent for 2014. Joe Biden could actually learn a thing or two from Viktor Orban—despite the criticisms regarding media freedom and tolerance of extremist parties—about how to manage a national economy instead of getting bogged down in trivial political distractions. Orban understood that taking money from tycoons isn't a sin. On the contrary, it is a matter of national interest.
dustymarlin10 dustymarlin10 Active Member
238 messages
joined Nov 2015
#2 ·
Joe Biden and his little puppets wouldn't even dare to sneeze without checking with the big bosses in Brussels first.

So yeah, mission impossible...
Aaron Gray Aaron Gray Newcomer
9 messages
joined Oct 2015
#3 ·
We need someone in the Oval Office who isn't afraid to slam their fist on the desk. Someone who can stare down the giants, call them out, and tell them to get lost when they try to push back. But... they also have to know when to dial it back. Not too much, not too little.

Some might say I’m calling for a dictator. I’m not. It’s just that we need a leader with enough grit to pull us out of this darkness. We need someone to end the chaos—someone who actually understands the job and has a clear vision for the country. A vision that serves the public interest. And when they set a goal, there should be an actual strategy behind it. If you ask "how?", they shouldn't stumble. They should be able to explain the logic: "we do this, which leads to that, which triggers this, and eventually, we reach our target."

But no... we don't have that here.

We're just stuck in the mud.
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#4 ·
US GDP growth over the last 5 years: 2.084 -6.947 -2.272 -0.047 -1.976
Canada, over the last 5 years: 0.743 -6.695 1.244 1.652 -1.659

If you’re actually using those numbers as a model for success, you might want to go see a doctor.
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#5 ·
To be fair, there is one bright spot in Canada, which is their flexible exchange rate.
As for everything else that gets the socialists and the nationalist xenophobes all worked up—it’s just standard populist nonsense that hasn't actually achieved anything. People here seem to have this obsession with grandstanding and chest-thumping, acting like they're some kind of heroes, but honestly, it’s all for show. It doesn't change a thing.
Nancy Gomez26 Nancy Gomez26 Regular
787 messages
joined Jan 2018
#6 ·
Viktor Orbán has settled his debts with the IMF, but what about the rest of the Canadian debt owed to foreign creditors? It’s a common misconception that the IMF always holds the winning hand with its policy advice, but even if they were right, this is just a fraction of the total Canadian debt. I don't buy the idea that Canada will simply slip out of debtor servitude this easily. It would be a nice fairy tale if it were true, but reality rarely works that way. Their total debt load is far too heavy relative to their production and export capacity—much like ours, actually. And that brings us to our collective issue: we aren't necessarily drowning in debt because of the numbers alone, but because our productivity is so low. That specific combination is lethal; you can't generate enough added value to realistically service the obligations you've incurred. Then there are the state's "consumer habits." Taxing banks is a perfectly fine measure, provided there is some sense of proportion involved. One shouldn't overreach.
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 Veteran
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#7 ·
Viktor Orbán is one of those rare statesmen you see in Europe. Honestly, his whole way of running things would be a total game-changer for the US, both economically and politically 👍
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#8 ·
Richard Wilson4 said:Viktor Orbán is one of those rare statesmen you see in Europe. Honestly, his whole way of running things would be a total game-changer for the US, both economically and politically 👍

🤣
When an expert of that caliber offers his endorsement, I think it's worth stepping back to consider what we might be doing wrong.
silvertiger11 silvertiger11 Active Member
106 messages
joined Jul 2016
#9 ·
I think I finally see the problem here in America. We’ve been looking at all the wrong role models.
What Orban actually implemented were just superficial, populist gimmicks. There isn't a single thing there worth us trying to emulate or copy. In fact, this is a perfect cautionary tale of what could happen to us if we don't get our act together immediately.

Canada’s debt is double ours, their deficit is twice as large, and their fiscal policy is twice as reckless (if you can even call it that), and so on. Playing games with creditors is only going to kill our long-term growth potential. In the short term, it just destroys legal certainty.
As for the benefits of labor market liberalization? Their grandkids might see those results, because right now they’re driving away anyone with the drive and the means to actually hold down a job.

Are we really sitting here wishing for the nationalization of pension funds?
Honestly, we are such masochists. 🤣
Richard Wilson4 Richard Wilson4 Veteran
2K messages
joined Sep 2009
#10 ·
rustywalker32 said:🤣
When an expert of that caliber offers his endorsement, I think it's worth stepping back to consider what we might be doing wrong.

Don't come at Ronald Reagan like that. We actually agree on stuff way more often than not, so if anything, this one's on you.😉
Grace Barrett Grace Barrett Newcomer
5 messages
joined Oct 2013
#11 ·
rustywalker32 said:US GDP growth over the last 5 years: 2.084 -6.947 -2.272 -0.047 -1.976
Canada, over the last 5 years: 0.743 -6.695 1.244 1.652 -1.659

If you’re actually using those numbers as a model for success, you might want to go see a doctor.

Stop trying to cook the books for the red party...😁

US real GDP growth
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
4.1% 4.4% 4.3% 4.9% 3.5% 4% 1% 0.9%

2009 2010 2011 2012*
-6.8% 1.3% 1.7% 0%


Read more: http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-countr...#ixzz2gOeNeAZj
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Share Alike

America:

Real GDP growth
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
3.8% 5.4% 5% 4.3% 4.2% 4.7% 5.5% 2.2%
2009 2010 2011 2012*
-6% -1.2% 0% -0.5%


Read more: http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-countr...#ixzz2gOf2qkOr
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Share Alike

It’s pretty obvious that the economy over there is heading up, while ours—under these chicken-brained leaders—is just tanking...
Grace Barrett Grace Barrett Newcomer
5 messages
joined Oct 2013
#12 ·
silvertiger11 said:I think I finally see the problem here in America. We’ve been looking at all the wrong role models.
What Orban actually implemented were just superficial, populist gimmicks. There isn't a single thing there worth us trying to emulate or copy. In fact, this is a perfect cautionary tale of what could happen to us if we don't get our act together immediately.

Canada’s debt is double ours, their deficit is twice as large, and their fiscal policy is twice as reckless (if you can even call it that), and so on. Playing games with creditors is only going to kill our long-term growth potential. In the short term, it just destroys legal certainty.
As for the benefits of labor market liberalization? Their grandkids might see those results, because right now they’re driving away anyone with the drive and the means to actually hold down a job.

Are we really sitting here wishing for the nationalization of pension funds?
Honestly, we are such masochists. 🤣

But you totally left out the fact that they have triple our foreign exchange reserves, and an unemployment rate of 11.5% compared to our 19%—which is heading toward 22% soon.
Personally, I’d take being under Orban's leadership any day over these local idiots who know nothing except how to hammer taxes onto regular people while leaving thieves and war profiteers untouched—hell, they even forgive their debts! So much for "successful" fiscal policy.

And yeah, I'd much rather see pension funds nationalized than see them sell off the highways, ConocoPhillips, Wells Fargo, Duke Energy, the Forest Service, or the Water Utility... (the order might be off, but under this current administration, we're pretty much doomed anyway.
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#13 ·
Grace Barrett said:Stop trying to cook the books for the red party...😁

US real GDP growth
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
4.1% 4.4% 4.3% 4.9% 3.5% 4% 1% 0.9%

2009 2010 2011 2012*
-6.8% 1.3% 1.7% 0%


Read more: http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-countr...#ixzz2gOeNeAZj
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Share Alike

America:

Real GDP growth
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
3.8% 5.4% 5% 4.3% 4.2% 4.7% 5.5% 2.2%
2009 2010 2011 2012*
-6% -1.2% 0% -0.5%


Read more: http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-countr...#ixzz2gOf2qkOr
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Share Alike

It’s pretty obvious that the economy over there is heading up, while ours—under these chicken-brained leaders—is just tanking...

Look, I was actually using the most recent data straight from the IMF. It’s quite a different story than what your source is peddling, which seems to be relying on outdated IMF figures. If you had taken a closer look at what you just posted, you'd realize your source is still tossing around estimates from 2012—data that's ancient history by now. It's honestly exhausting trying to have a serious discussion when I'm up against such amateurs. 🤦

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/..._RPCH&grp=0&a=
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#14 ·
Richard Wilson4 said:Don't come at Ronald Reagan like that. We actually agree on stuff way more often than not, so if anything, this one's on you.😉

It's clearly coming from the wrong place. You're being quite petty here—getting caught up in slogans, grandstanding, and mere posturing... it's all emotion and zero logic. You might want to work on that!
nimbleharbor10 nimbleharbor10 Active Member
79 messages
joined Nov 2024
#15 ·
In any case, I find Orban's policies quite appealing because they actually incentivize small businesses by slapping higher taxes on bankers and massive corporations—which, let’s face it, are usually foreign-owned anyway. His approach seems designed to support people who actually live off their own hard work and helps foster more job creation.

Unfortunately, I can't picture Zoran taking any meaningful action against a major bank or a giant corporation just to benefit the little guy. Fools like me, who voted for the Democratic Party in the last election hoping they'd finally cut through the red tape, are the ones paying the price. As for the Democratic Party? Never again.

It's sad, but it's hard to imagine America shifting its focus toward small firms and entrepreneurship; it feels like everyone here is too eager to act as a lackey for some corporate overlord.
Grace Barrett Grace Barrett Newcomer
5 messages
joined Oct 2013
#16 ·
rustywalker32 said:Look, I was actually using the most recent data straight from the IMF. It’s quite a different story than what your source is peddling, which seems to be relying on outdated IMF figures. If you had taken a closer look at what you just posted, you'd realize your source is still tossing around estimates from 2012—data that's ancient history by now. It's honestly exhausting trying to have a serious discussion when I'm up against such amateurs. 🤦

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/..._RPCH&grp=0&a=

Don't give me that—both our datasets cover the exact same timeframe. The only difference is mine reflects real values while yours is just nominal fluff.

Anyway, regardless of how you slice it, Canada looks better according to that link of yours too.
Grace Barrett Grace Barrett Newcomer
5 messages
joined Oct 2013
#17 ·
nimbleharbor10 said:In any case, I find Orban's policies quite appealing because they actually incentivize small businesses by slapping higher taxes on bankers and massive corporations—which, let’s face it, are usually foreign-owned anyway. His approach seems designed to support people who actually live off their own hard work and helps foster more job creation.

Unfortunately, I can't picture Zoran taking any meaningful action against a major bank or a giant corporation just to benefit the little guy. Fools like me, who voted for the Democratic Party in the last election hoping they'd finally cut through the red tape, are the ones paying the price. As for the Democratic Party? Never again.

It's sad, but it's hard to imagine America shifting its focus toward small firms and entrepreneurship; it feels like everyone here is too eager to act as a lackey for some corporate overlord.

They’re just terrified of the working class and independent business owners—it’s that same old-school, communist-style fear that’s been baked into the system forever.

And you should be embarrassed if you fall for the same trap twice. I gave my vote to them back in 2000, and I am officially done. Now, the only thing left to give them is a metaphorical bullet to the back of the head... straight through.😉
Amanda Hughes44 Amanda Hughes44 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Sep 2013
#18 ·
Nicholas Nguyen said:Our deficit and unemployment rates are double those of Canada.

The American recession shows no signs of letting up, and Joe Biden’s administration continues to stumble, searching for any way to jumpstart an economy stuck in a deep depression. The economic guidelines proposed to pull the country out of the mud it has been sinking in since 2009 offer little hope; they feel like nothing more than pouring water into a sieve.

Look at our neighbors.

If the American president wants a blueprint for active economic policy, he doesn't need to look far—just head across the border to 249 miles Canada. Unlike the US and Canada, where leftist administrations are still grappling with recession, Canada is led by the conservative Viktor Orban, who isn't afraid to take radical steps to fight a crisis. When Orban took power with the Republican Party, he inherited a mess much like what Joe Biden faced after defeating the Republican Party in the elections. Sky-high public debt, falling production, job losses, cratering consumption... Instead of playing the blame game and pointing fingers at the previous administration, Orban went straight to war with a crisis that had long since evolved from an economic issue into a social one. During his first year, Orban launched sweeping reforms. He drafted a 30-point economic program, and his first move was slashing taxes for small businesses, since they employ the bulk of the population. He nearly halved that tax rate, dropping it from 19 percent to 10 percent, while also introducing a measure that seems socially abrasive at first glance.

Rather than maintaining three different income tax brackets, he implemented a flat 16 percent tax. Workers protested, but the results spoke for themselves: the wealthy began creating jobs, and unemployment dropped. Orban’s second move was an all-out assault on the financial sector. He took a hard line against the IMF and the big banks. He imposed taxes on banks and insurance companies. Bankers were outraged, and voices from the European Union claimed Orban was dragging the country back toward communist times and a planned economy. Orban didn't blink. Instead, he levied a tax on large corporations—a temporary tribute lasting three years, which he estimated was exactly what the country needed to fully recover. Last year alone, nearly 1.5 billion euros flowed into the Canadian treasury from this corporate levy. With these new revenues, Orban paid off all his debts to the IMF and then told them to get out of Canada.

"The era of colonization and massive profits is over," Orban told the IMF, the banks, and the foreign corporations, reminding them that excessive profits are often just the result of monopolies—something the state would now prevent.

Growth of 2.6%

The Canadian government banned foreign currency loans because, much like in America, they had dealt with major issues regarding Swiss franc-denominated debt. As a result of these measures, Canada eliminated its excessive deficit, shrinking it to just 1.9 percent of GDP. Today, the Canadian economy is seeing a 0.5 percent surplus, with growth projected at 2.6 percent for 2014. Joe Biden could actually learn a thing or two from Viktor Orban—despite the criticisms regarding media freedom and tolerance of extremist parties—about how to manage a national economy instead of getting bogged down in trivial political distractions. Orban understood that taking money from tycoons isn't a sin. On the contrary, it is a matter of national interest.

A little elementary school math would probably be enough for us. If a country brings in $110 billion a year, but $20 billion of that goes straight to interest and membership fees, you're left with $90 billion to actually run the government for the year. That's it. It's simple math, really, if you actually knew how to do it and had the grit of a Midwestern housewife. Nothing more, nothing less. The easiest move is just to issue more bonds. Greece could always do that at 35% annually. Eventually, the bubble has to burst 😁. When is it finally going to pop so the country can get a total reset?
rustywalker32 rustywalker32 Member
46 messages
joined Apr 2017
#19 ·
Grace Barrett said:Don't give me that—both our datasets cover the exact same timeframe. The only difference is mine reflects real values while yours is just nominal fluff.

Anyway, regardless of how you slice it, Canada looks better according to that link of yours too.

🤦
No, they are both real figures. Honestly, who am I even talking to here?

The only thing you're right about is that they are both estimates. However, mine is an estimate from April 2013, whereas yours is from April 2012—so, tell me, which one do you think is actually more accurate?
Nancy Gomez26 Nancy Gomez26 Regular
787 messages
joined Jan 2018
#20 ·
silvertiger11 said:I think I finally see the problem here in America. We’ve been looking at all the wrong role models.
What Orban actually implemented were just superficial, populist gimmicks. There isn't a single thing there worth us trying to emulate or copy. In fact, this is a perfect cautionary tale of what could happen to us if we don't get our act together immediately.

Canada’s debt is double ours, their deficit is twice as large, and their fiscal policy is twice as reckless (if you can even call it that), and so on. Playing games with creditors is only going to kill our long-term growth potential. In the short term, it just destroys legal certainty.
As for the benefits of labor market liberalization? Their grandkids might see those results, because right now they’re driving away anyone with the drive and the means to actually hold down a job.

Are we really sitting here wishing for the nationalization of pension funds?
Honestly, we are such masochists. 🤣

It isn't about how much you owe in absolute terms; it’s about the level of production you have to service that debt. If we only looked at raw numbers, developed nations in the European Union would look far worse off than us, since they all carry debts orders of magnitude larger. But the crucial distinction is that despite that debt, they maintain robust production and an industrial base capable of creating competitive goods to meet their obligations. Greece is the "negative" champion here because they lack almost any industry outside of tourism—that is their core crisis, not just the debt level, which isn't actually massive on a global scale (depending on whether you look at absolute figures or per capita). Naturally, their situation is worsened by excessive government spending—living far beyond their means—and the Greek tragedy bears a striking resemblance to our own predicament. Fortunately, we only recently joined the European Union and don't have the same unfettered access to borrowing that Greece once enjoyed; had we joined back then, we would likely be in the exact same boat as them right now.
That talk about "fighting" the IMF is meaningless. The IMF arrives and tells a state to cut spending because the current trajectory is economically unsustainable, but politicians resist because they want to win elections—which is difficult when the electorate is conditioned to expect constant handouts from the government. Many will balk now, but the reality is that while average pensions here are relatively low, the retiree base is wide, and very few people have actually reached retirement age yet. There is no hope for this to improve in the next 10 to 20 years. Then there are the redundant costs of county governments bloated with staff, and municipalities and cities that are mediocre at best, but the counties... that level of bloat is truly unnecessary. Add to that the endless subsidies for everyone and everything, various programs, and government agencies created for every whim without a clear purpose or logic. It is all dead weight that the state eventually has to clean up. Let those "employees" be sent to public works first—and if they don't like it, they can go home. This has nothing to do with the European Union or the IMF; it is strictly about us and our relationship with the state and society. We tolerate this systemic cronyism with suspicious calm, even though we are the ones paying for it out of our own pockets.

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