Academic performance, IQ, and generational shifts

Sorry, I couldn't think of a title that really captures this, so feel free to edit 😬

This might lean toward pedagogy, but since we don't have a dedicated sub-forum for it here, I'll just drop it in.

Research suggests that IQ scores actually trend upward over time. I won't get bogged down in the specifics of what an IQ test measures or how much it relies on education levels. It’s enough to note that tests are scaled so that 100 remains the average; essentially, today’s average score would have been considered above average decades ago.

On the flip side, there seems to be a noticeable dip in student quality over the last few generations. I'm not citing specific studies for this—or at least, I haven't read them lately—but rather relying on the general consensus among university professors. This isn't just limited to one school or even one country; it seems to be a widespread sentiment across the West. Of course, it's hard to say if this perception is truly objective (subjective biases are common), and if anyone has data to disprove this, I'm all ears. For now, let's just treat it as a working hypothesis. The same might apply to K-12, though I don't have firsthand insight there.

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Failed attempts at large-scale educational reforms, similar to the shifts seen in European systems.

- A higher standard of living leading to more "entitlement" and, consequently, less drive.

- A shift in how we process information following the rise of the internet and computers, where
a - the educational system failed to adapt its methods and criteria to these new realities
or
b - certain cognitive skills have actually suffered due to overexposure to digital tools.

- Excessive liberalization regarding students, who often receive more rights than their experience allows them to use constructively, leaving faculty with very little room to maneuver.

- Increased social pressure to pursue higher education, pushing a larger percentage of people into universities without any genuine interest in the field or actual market demand.

- A lack of motivation or perspective stemming from some other unknown factor.

Those are just some quick thoughts I had while typing this out. Maybe I'll think of something else later.

Do you have other theories on what might be causing this, or perhaps evidence suggesting that the initial premise is flawed?

Also, does anyone know what the situation looks like in non-Western education systems? Just speculating, but it wouldn't surprise me if rising nations like China and India are seeing the exact opposite trend, given that education is becoming more accessible while economic pressure remains intense.

bluemason3 said:Sorry, I couldn't think of a title that really captures this, so feel free to edit 😬

This might lean toward pedagogy, but since we don't have a dedicated sub-forum for it here, I'll just drop it in.

Research suggests that IQ scores actually trend upward over time. I won't get bogged down in the specifics of what an IQ test measures or how much it relies on education levels. It’s enough to note that tests are scaled so that 100 remains the average; essentially, today’s average score would have been considered above average decades ago.

On the flip side, there seems to be a noticeable dip in student quality over the last few generations. I'm not citing specific studies for this—or at least, I haven't read them lately—but rather relying on the general consensus among university professors. This isn't just limited to one school or even one country; it seems to be a widespread sentiment across the West. Of course, it's hard to say if this perception is truly objective (subjective biases are common), and if anyone has data to disprove this, I'm all ears. For now, let's just treat it as a working hypothesis. The same might apply to K-12, though I don't have firsthand insight there.

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Failed attempts at large-scale educational reforms, similar to the shifts seen in European systems.

- A higher standard of living leading to more "entitlement" and, consequently, less drive.

- A shift in how we process information following the rise of the internet and computers, where
a - the educational system failed to adapt its methods and criteria to these new realities
or
b - certain cognitive skills have actually suffered due to overexposure to digital tools.

- Excessive liberalization regarding students, who often receive more rights than their experience allows them to use constructively, leaving faculty with very little room to maneuver.

- Increased social pressure to pursue higher education, pushing a larger percentage of people into universities without any genuine interest in the field or actual market demand.

- A lack of motivation or perspective stemming from some other unknown factor.

Those are just some quick thoughts I had while typing this out. Maybe I'll think of something else later.

Do you have other theories on what might be causing this, or perhaps evidence suggesting that the initial premise is flawed?

Also, does anyone know what the situation looks like in non-Western education systems? Just speculating, but it wouldn't surprise me if rising nations like China and India are seeing the exact opposite trend, given that education is becoming more accessible while economic pressure remains intense.

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote, but I’d highlight these four points specifically. As a college student, I see examples of this all the time. I assume you have plenty of your own, so I won't list them, but if you really want them, I can.

One thing I’d add is how incredibly hard it is for some people to accept that they just aren't cut out for certain majors. It gets absurd. You see someone with average—or even slightly below average—intelligence finish high school and decide *not* to go to college because they realize it might be too tough. Meanwhile, someone significantly below average thinks they can handle it and enrolls anyway (mostly because they aren't self-aware enough to know their limits). For instance, there’s a guy at my university who failed his entire freshman year twice. Even though he clearly tried, he eventually switched to a slightly—and I mean slightly—easier major, and now he's starting his third attempt at year one.

bluemason3 said:Sorry, I couldn't think of a title that really captures this, so feel free to edit 😬

This might lean toward pedagogy, but since we don't have a dedicated sub-forum for it here, I'll just drop it in.

Research suggests that IQ scores actually trend upward over time. I won't get bogged down in the specifics of what an IQ test measures or how much it relies on education levels. It’s enough to note that tests are scaled so that 100 remains the average; essentially, today’s average score would have been considered above average decades ago.

On the flip side, there seems to be a noticeable dip in student quality over the last few generations. I'm not citing specific studies for this—or at least, I haven't read them lately—but rather relying on the general consensus among university professors. This isn't just limited to one school or even one country; it seems to be a widespread sentiment across the West. Of course, it's hard to say if this perception is truly objective (subjective biases are common), and if anyone has data to disprove this, I'm all ears. For now, let's just treat it as a working hypothesis. The same might apply to K-12, though I don't have firsthand insight there.

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Failed attempts at large-scale educational reforms, similar to the shifts seen in European systems.

- A higher standard of living leading to more "entitlement" and, consequently, less drive.

- A shift in how we process information following the rise of the internet and computers, where
a - the educational system failed to adapt its methods and criteria to these new realities
or
b - certain cognitive skills have actually suffered due to overexposure to digital tools.

- Excessive liberalization regarding students, who often receive more rights than their experience allows them to use constructively, leaving faculty with very little room to maneuver.

- Increased social pressure to pursue higher education, pushing a larger percentage of people into universities without any genuine interest in the field or actual market demand.

- A lack of motivation or perspective stemming from some other unknown factor.

Those are just some quick thoughts I had while typing this out. Maybe I'll think of something else later.

Do you have other theories on what might be causing this, or perhaps evidence suggesting that the initial premise is flawed?

Also, does anyone know what the situation looks like in non-Western education systems? Just speculating, but it wouldn't surprise me if rising nations like China and India are seeing the exact opposite trend, given that education is becoming more accessible while economic pressure remains intense.

I don't have many connections outside of the US and neighboring countries, except for one friend studying in Syria (he was born there, just so we aren't confused thinking he's just an exchange student). I don't know if you'd consider them a "non-Western" society. Regardless, the situation there (at least before the war) was similar to ours; most people just enroll in college because it's what you do. So, I don't have much useful to add.

From the end of the draft to the rise of metrosexuality, we’ve watched a systematic decline in our youth—basically just turning people into easy targets for manipulation.
Knowledge? Who needs it when you've got a smartphone and Wikipedia. Physical fitness? Irrelevant, unless you count those weekend warriors who spend more time on their makeup than actually training. It just goes on and on. There’s no discipline left... and honestly, until we move past this entire culture of weakness, we aren't going anywhere.

I stumbled onto an interesting realization during a conversation with my wife earlier.

It turns out that in our generation, certain areas—like where she grew up—had much better school systems than mine did. A lot of it comes down to the environment. She came from a rural background where things were more serious; there was actual respect for teachers and the school itself, plus smaller class sizes that allowed for better learning. I, on the other hand, grew up in a massive, diverse urban sprawl characterized by overcrowded classrooms, zero respect for authority, constant mocking of teachers, and a pervasive "gangsta" culture.

But there’s also an economic angle to this. Back in the eighties, in my coastal hometown, an average waiter could make more money through tips and side hustles than some local business director could—assuming that director wasn't cutting corners. It makes me wonder if that disconnect broke the perceived link between education and actual survival, and if that mindset eventually spread across the entire country.

The sheer amount of info we're drowning in now is just massive

I mean, back when I was a college kid, all I had in my dorm was a radio—nothing else could really distract me from the grind except for the actual textbooks I was studying for finals

But nowadays? You just mention "the internet" and suddenly a computer is an absolute necessity for school. One minute you open your laptop to check one thing, and before you know it, you've fallen down a total rabbit hole🙂

Angela Johnson8 said:From the end of the draft to the rise of metrosexuality, we’ve watched a systematic decline in our youth—basically just turning people into easy targets for manipulation.
Knowledge? Who needs it when you've got a smartphone and Wikipedia. Physical fitness? Irrelevant, unless you count those weekend warriors who spend more time on their makeup than actually training. It just goes on and on. There’s no discipline left... and honestly, until we move past this entire culture of weakness, we aren't going anywhere.

Angela Johnson8, I’m actually the only one in my entire family who didn't serve in the military, and I can tell you right now—I'm easily the most fit person in the house!

Angela Johnson8 said:From the end of the draft to the rise of metrosexuality, we’ve watched a systematic decline in our youth—basically just turning people into easy targets for manipulation.
Knowledge? Who needs it when you've got a smartphone and Wikipedia. Physical fitness? Irrelevant, unless you count those weekend warriors who spend more time on their makeup than actually training. It just goes on and on. There’s no discipline left... and honestly, until we move past this entire culture of weakness, we aren't going anywhere.

That’s just the American model: breeding sheep that stay quiet and don't ask questions. What good is having all that information if nobody actually knows how to think?

The fundamental crisis facing American society today is that everyone is obsessed with demanding their rights, yet absolutely no one is willing to accept their responsibilities. You see it everywhere: the farmer who expects government subsidies regardless of his actual crop yield, the laborer demanding a full paycheck regardless of hours worked, and veterans seeking pensions without meeting the necessary criteria. It is a culture of entitlement without accountability.

When you factor in an irresponsible government that focuses exclusively on short-term pandering to potential voters rather than implementing long-term strategies to improve this nation, you end up with the exact situation we find ourselves in today.

If the United States operated under the logic that children should be taught from elementary school that fulfilling their obligations comes first—before they are even allowed to "demand rights"—our societal trajectory would be significantly better.

Showing up to school without supplies, failing to complete assignments, rampant cheating, disrupting class, and persistent laziness; increasingly, neither students nor parents view these behaviors as serious enough to warrant any disciplinary action. At the same time, everyone insists they "have a right" to attend class without being sent away, or they "have a right" to be tested and have their grades adjusted until the very last bell rings.

After high school, everyone suddenly "demands their right" to a free college education, regardless of their high school GPA or their performance on the SATs. There is a widespread assumption that they "deserve to pass" no matter what their actual results indicate.

Regarding secondary education, practically every complaint made by a student against a teacher is resolved at the teacher's expense. The administration's goal is simply to ensure "parents don't complain further, and you teachers should just be happy you still have a job and a steady paycheck in this economy." 🙂

Take the standardized testing thresholds, for example. If the passing grade is set suspiciously low, the justification provided is often: "Well, we had to do it, otherwise more than 20% of the students would have failed!" Of course, in countries like France or Belgium, such standards wouldn't be an issue, but here in America, we can't afford it because "the students and parents will start making a fuss."