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Home › Society › Spirituality › Split Dualism: The Reflexive Subject-Ego vs. the Atavistic Object-Ego

Split Dualism: The Reflexive Subject-Ego vs. the Atavistic Object-Ego

Started by Lisa Morales4 · · 👁 4 views · 23 replies

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Participants Lisa Morales4vividbison9cosmictinker21electrictinker26Ryan Wilson2Larry Wilson5
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#1 ·
Following the "vision" thread, the highly esteemed Lisa Morales4 actually took me out to some endless hunting grounds today to search for an answer, because I just couldn't wrap my head around the qualification of how relevant ego self-reflection really is.

And so, I eventually arrived at an answer that finally feels right.
My only frustration is with those "non-ness" lexemes that make it so hard to articulate what I'm feeling.

But, given how this touches on themes we see all the time here—things like the duality of human nature, the mechanics of thought, free will, the concept of the Divine Child as a Person, original sin, and our primordial, pre-human, non-bio-physiological makeup—I decided to share this with the community. I'm hoping it might spark some healthy debate or lead to further clarification and deeper discussion.

Regarding the linked post above,

I’d honestly rather just use the word "reflection" instead of "self-reflection." To me, every act of reflection already implies a person—a subject who is reflecting on something, regardless of the topic. Regular reflection is becoming an absolute imperative and an essential skill for the 21st century, both for individual growth and for the progress of society as a whole. Every psychologically healthy person is essentially called to reflect, to develop themselves, and to influence those around them by being mindful of their actions—especially their mistakes, which are often the best teachers. Since reflection is a skill, it requires constant practice and lifelong refinement. It's like how every employee undergoes performance management at work, or how children start learning from a very young age through verbal feedback or written journals, then move to their peers, and eventually to family dynamics where everyone shares these reflections with one another, each in their own way.

Anyone who considers themselves a true person and views their existence as an active subject rather than a passive object—anyone aware of their own ego—will naturally recognize other people as distinct subjectivities and separate selves.

Who doesn't possess a reflective ego-consciousness?

Who isn't a person capable of striving to find themselves in order to truly "be"?

Who isn't characterized by a bio-physiological and mental drive toward growth and fulfillment?

Whose ego doesn't crave "being fulfilled"—to be someone, or to be something?

You can't expect an infant to reflect; they aren't yet aware of their ego, they don't demonstrate conscious free will, and they aren't a "person" in this sense. They don't yet know how to consciously say, "No."
>

An idiot isn't a person and cannot reflect; they lack the drive to find themselves or fulfill their identity, and they fail to acknowledge the subjectivity and will of others.

A feral child could hardly be considered a person, and therefore, they aren't called upon to reflect.

Psychopaths and those who are clinically unreachable simply aren't functioning as persons anymore, so we don't expect reflection from them.

Animals and plants also lack a personal-subjective or a consciously reflective ego.

Healthy, bio-physiologically sound individuals—those aware of both their own subjectivity and that of others—develop into responsible human beings. As they mature, they learn to train, control, and discipline their ego. These subjects are people whose egos have the capacity to step outside themselves to participate empathetically in the lives of others through friendship, compassion, and love.

The reflective ego-subject, however much original it may be, is inherently bifurcated. This "split" within its individuality provides endless material for reflection and growth, but also leads to errors, imbalance, self-obstruction, and alienation from the world and the self. Even though the ego knows it EXISTS, it can never fully grasp or integrate itself because its fractal nature makes it nearly impossible to perceive itself as an active, creative subject.

Human beings tend to view the world as a seamless whole—a unified totality where they are an inseparable part. However, because we are born into a legacy of internal division and conflict, there is a constant contradiction within our own sense of self. We struggle with the shadow cast by our ego, which makes it incredibly difficult to feel truly fulfilled or centered. We are fundamentally fractured, both internally and in our relationship to the outside world. We exist simultaneously as the active observer and the mere shadow of

A healthy individual isn't just someone who recognizes their active "self"—that driving force working toward self-actualization, taking ownership of their freedom, and shaping their own destiny. They are also deeply aware of that dormant, passive, pre-conscious object living inside them. This is the part of us that lies hidden, making us nothing more than a conditioned bystander to a predetermined fate, devoid of any real agency or sense of responsibility

While the active ego acts as the catalyst for self-driven action, the atavistic ego remains a hollow, passive fact—a shell of an object. This internal friction is unavoidable

Only through a reflexive consciousness—one that can reconcile these two sides of the ego—can a person attempt to affirm their true self and rise above the inherent misery of the human condition
vividbison9 vividbison9 Member
10 messages
joined Sep 2010
#2 ·
yeah
cosmictinker21 cosmictinker21 Active Member
242 messages
joined Jan 2009
#3 ·
Not really sure if I agree or not. Right now I’ve got five different things simmering on the stove, so I can't exactly focus solely on the whole dualism debate. Once I actually have a free moment, I'll dive back in...

Look, "idiots," toddlers, and people who just sleep through life—they're still people. They possess self-reflection and an ego (well, except for kids under two, obviously). It all comes down to maturity levels, intellectual capacity, and those other various factors that make up a person. When we talk about a lack of self-awareness in certain individuals, we're usually referring to clinical cases of developmental issues—things like microcephaly where survival itself is a miracle, or severe cognitive impairments where someone is basically in a vegetative state...

Anyway, I should probably stop here. Time to go stir the pot.
cosmictinker21 cosmictinker21 Active Member
242 messages
joined Jan 2009
#4 ·
Super Kokuz said:give me 😍

Let's not just mess around with a boring topic. If we're doing this, we need to bring out the heavy artillery and start clashing swords...😍
vividbison9 vividbison9 Member
10 messages
joined Sep 2010
#5 ·
Man, what’s the big deal? Tudejki will be totally fine once some new recipes drop

Wait, why are you prepping five (5) lunches at once?

And honestly, regarding the topic... I haven't quite caught your drift. 🤷 😕
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#6 ·
Yeah, you guys are acting like kids 🙂 and kids actually have this weird ability to reflect on all the things they aren't doing...

I just want the truth here 🙂 Is anyone feeling uncomfortable? If so, what is it? Why?

As far as calves, idiots, and the mentally ill go... they count as people to us, but they don't really exist to themselves.
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#7 ·
vividbison9 said:Man, what’s the big deal? Tudejki will be totally fine once some new recipes drop

Wait, why are you prepping five (5) lunches at once?

And honestly, regarding the topic... I haven't quite caught your drift. 🤷 😕


🤣🤣

Is that what they call reflection-in-action, or reflection-on-action??

As far as the topic goes, I honestly haven't quite grasped it yet. 🤷 😕

I mean, do you have two egos, no ego, or what? Does that hairy little ego ever get tangled up in your business ego?
cosmictinker21 cosmictinker21 Active Member
242 messages
joined Jan 2009
#8 ·
Lisa Morales4 said:Yeah, you guys are acting like kids 🙂 and kids actually have this weird ability to reflect on all the things they aren't doing...

I just want the truth here 🙂 Is anyone feeling uncomfortable? If so, what is it? Why?

As far as calves, idiots, and the mentally ill go... they count as people to us, but they don't really exist to themselves.

They are, just not at the same level of consciousness. Infants and those with an IQ hovering somewhere under 35% don't really recognize themselves as individuals. Mental patients—unless there's significant cognitive impairment involved—usually don't either. Everyone else possesses a sense of self. I know this one guy who's a total sociopath; he's highly educated, yet emotionally he's stuck at the level of a seven-year-old (it's always ego über alles with them).

Anyway, I have to run before my coconut cream sauce burns on the stove...🤣
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#9 ·
cosmictinker21 said:They are, just not at the same level of consciousness. Infants and those with an IQ hovering somewhere under 35% don't really recognize themselves as individuals. Mental patients—unless there's significant cognitive impairment involved—usually don't either. Everyone else possesses a sense of self. I know this one guy who's a total sociopath; he's highly educated, yet emotionally he's stuck at the level of a seven-year-old (it's always ego über alles with them).

Anyway, I have to run before my coconut cream sauce burns on the stove...🤣

My husband has a sense of self too, but that doesn't make him a narcissist.
There are many different facets of ego that actually build the foundation for understanding how emotions work.

In Buddhist philosophy, for instance, the ego is composed of five aggregates: form, sensation, perception, mental formations, and consciousness.
By which of these would your acquaintance be capable of reflecting?
Is he even capable of critical thinking at that seven-year-old level?
Can he actually solve a problem?

There are plenty of creatures in this world, but very few true human beings.
For many, if they possess an ego at all, it’s just that primal, pre-human ego where they view themselves merely as an object—lacking freedom and acting as a passive victim of fate.
cosmictinker21 cosmictinker21 Active Member
242 messages
joined Jan 2009
#10 ·
cosmictinker21 cosmictinker21 Active Member
242 messages
joined Jan 2009
#11 ·
At the end of the day, we’re all just part of the same story... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrBZm...eature=related
electrictinker26 electrictinker26 Active Member
89 messages
joined Apr 2012
#12 ·
What we’re talking about here is draining energy through the ego. The ego is essentially a mental mechanism designed for energy depletion. We have been programmed to siphon energy from one another rather than drawing it "from above."

In my view, enlightenment is the realization that energy is always available. When you reach that point, the ego becomes unnecessary, allowing you to share energy without any individual feeling deprived.

The reality is that if the ego disappears, it will simply resurface the moment we need energy again. Everything within the ego is structured to make us think in ways that force us to extract energy from every possible source. We do this constantly, every single day. When we stop doing it, we fall into depression—we lose our vitality.

For example, I play soccer, and when my team wins, I receive an energy boost. Whether I realize it or not, I’m pulling that energy from both my teammates and the opposing players. Later, when I’m back home, I still feel that high; I replay the process in my mind. Since we are all energetically interconnected, there is a constant exchange. With true love and the act of giving, we draw energy from an infinitely creative source and then pass it on. The sense of duality arises because people crave this energy to sustain a healthy life, but once you become aware of the cycle, you no longer want to "steal" it from others. Yet, you still need that energy.

However, you risk losing out if you don't tap into it. Often, those who undergo fasting achieve enlightenment because they release all their stored energy, only to eventually realize they possess an abundance of it. Essentially, the mental blockage preventing you from receiving free energy is removed.

Personally, I believe it is fine to maintain the old system (the ego) for now. Most people operate on autopilot, taking energy from one another, and they aren't at fault until they reach a state of awareness. Whether that energy flows to you or someone else is ultimately the same thing.

What matters is being mindful of our own energy. If we want to be responsible spiritual students, we shouldn't waste it needlessly; instead, we should look for better alternatives in the meantime.

It works just like fuel. It's a parallel: just as traditional medicine and organized religion function similarly, the fuel we use for external power operates much like how human energy functions today.

I once read *The Divine Spark*, and it touches on these exact themes. But it’s much clearer to me now, especially after hearing what was "discovered"—that the energy was actually being received
from some higher being... If I recall correctly...
Ryan Wilson2 Ryan Wilson2 Regular
387 messages
joined Dec 2002
#13 ·
All your little theories and logic go right out the window the moment an attractive woman walks by.

The ego vanishes, the schedule is forgotten, the energy dissipates, and even your spirituality evaporates into thin air. 😁
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#14 ·
And you just end up getting back exactly as much energy as you put into her 🙂
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#15 ·
Energy is always present; you just have to be plugged in
to the Network, the energetic Circuit, the Body
every form of natural energy is renewable and infinite.
Energy flows constantly, arriving like mother's milk: as soon as it is offered.

that pre-human, passive object-ego which drags behind us like an atavistic tail, still only knows how to take. That’s why it eventually burned out.

this creative subject-ego possesses a Potentiality that drives everything visible and invisible, including waste—meaning our ongoing mistakes and failures.

that is precisely what this topic is about:
about the capacity for critical, constructive reflection on our shortcomings and errors, about the human consciousness desiring to fill its voids, about repairing a severed limb, and about renewable sources.

But until people experience that sudden spark of active, full connection, they will continue to feed greedily on the idea of finding a shortcut—trying to grab God by the beard and circling their prey, hoping to snatch an instant feed for eternal life, trying to charge themselves up with an energy that is supposed to shake them to their very core.

The best example was the Scoundrel, who approached us and honestly said, "I don't understand anything (let's start from scratch and take a few steps back so we can actually move forward)."
...and then he headed back to his corner store to grab the eggs he'd forgotten... just making sure he didn't get lost in the woods on the way. You can't really get lost, because he isn't something meant to be extinguished.

The important thing is that he keeps moving.

🙂
electrictinker26 electrictinker26 Active Member
89 messages
joined Apr 2012
#16 ·
Lisa Morales4 said:And you just end up getting back exactly as much energy as you put into her 🙂

Exactly! Or you just drain all her energy until she loses her spark, and suddenly, you're the one looking better! 🙂
electrictinker26 electrictinker26 Active Member
89 messages
joined Apr 2012
#17 ·
Lisa Morales4 said:Energy is always present; you just have to be plugged in
to the Network, the energetic Circuit, the Body
every form of natural energy is renewable and infinite.
Energy flows constantly, arriving like mother's milk: as soon as it is offered.

that pre-human, passive object-ego which drags behind us like an atavistic tail, still only knows how to take. That’s why it eventually burned out.

this creative subject-ego possesses a Potentiality that drives everything visible and invisible, including waste—meaning our ongoing mistakes and failures.

that is precisely what this topic is about:
about the capacity for critical, constructive reflection on our shortcomings and errors, about the human consciousness desiring to fill its voids, about repairing a severed limb, and about renewable sources.

But until people experience that sudden spark of active, full connection, they will continue to feed greedily on the idea of finding a shortcut—trying to grab God by the beard and circling their prey, hoping to snatch an instant feed for eternal life, trying to charge themselves up with an energy that is supposed to shake them to their very core.

The best example was the Scoundrel, who approached us and honestly said, "I don't understand anything (let's start from scratch and take a few steps back so we can actually move forward)."
...and then he headed back to his corner store to grab the eggs he'd forgotten... just making sure he didn't get lost in the woods on the way. You can't really get lost, because he isn't something meant to be extinguished.

The important thing is that he keeps moving.

🙂

Exactly.
electrictinker26 electrictinker26 Active Member
89 messages
joined Apr 2012
#18 ·
Lisa Morales4 said:Energy is always present; you just have to be plugged in
to the Network, the energetic Circuit, the Body
every form of natural energy is renewable and infinite.
Energy flows constantly, arriving like mother's milk: as soon as it is offered.

that pre-human, passive object-ego which drags behind us like an atavistic tail, still only knows how to take. That’s why it eventually burned out.

this creative subject-ego possesses a Potentiality that drives everything visible and invisible, including waste—meaning our ongoing mistakes and failures.

that is precisely what this topic is about:
about the capacity for critical, constructive reflection on our shortcomings and errors, about the human consciousness desiring to fill its voids, about repairing a severed limb, and about renewable sources.

But until people experience that sudden spark of active, full connection, they will continue to feed greedily on the idea of finding a shortcut—trying to grab God by the beard and circling their prey, hoping to snatch an instant feed for eternal life, trying to charge themselves up with an energy that is supposed to shake them to their very core.

The best example was the Scoundrel, who approached us and honestly said, "I don't understand anything (let's start from scratch and take a few steps back so we can actually move forward)."
...and then he headed back to his corner store to grab the eggs he'd forgotten... just making sure he didn't get lost in the woods on the way. You can't really get lost, because he isn't something meant to be extinguished.

The important thing is that he keeps moving.

🙂

As Bruce Lee once put it:

Many people spend their lives trying to achieve an image of who they think they should be, rather than simply becoming who they are. There is a vital distinction between self-actualization and merely fulfilling a self-image. Most people live solely to satisfy that projected persona.

Where there should be a true self, most people find a void because they are too preoccupied with projecting these various identities. There is also a curse in holding onto ideals. The curse lies in being unable to accept your own reality. Any form of external control—even an internalized version of it—disrupts the healthy functioning of the individual. Only one thing can truly master the situation: if you recognize where you stand and allow your current circumstances to dictate your actions, then you are finally learning how to master life itself.
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#19 ·
electrictinker26 said:Exactly! Or you just drain all her energy until she loses her spark, and suddenly, you're the one looking better! 🙂

Once she realizes she doesn't need to cater to some idiot, she'll get her glow back and find someone who actually deserves her.

And if you're worried about what happens to the idiot, just know that once his little moment of selfish glory passes, he's going to get burned by the very fire he started.
Lisa Morales4 Lisa Morales4 Active MemberOP
205 messages
joined Aug 2010
#20 ·
electrictinker26 said:As Bruce Lee once put it:

Many people spend their lives trying to achieve an image of who they think they should be, rather than simply becoming who they are. There is a vital distinction between self-actualization and merely fulfilling a self-image. Most people live solely to satisfy that projected persona.

Where there should be a true self, most people find a void because they are too preoccupied with projecting these various identities. There is also a curse in holding onto ideals. The curse lies in being unable to accept your own reality. Any form of external control—even an internalized version of it—disrupts the healthy functioning of the individual. Only one thing can truly master the situation: if you recognize where you stand and allow your current circumstances to dictate your actions, then you are finally learning how to master life itself.

Yeah, most people are shaped by their ethico-psychological scaffolding. It’s those patterns that create the preconceived notions about whether an emotional reaction is "right" or "wrong," all based on rational understanding and logical elucidation.

If you can actually grasp the reality of your situation and let that reality dictate your actions, then you're finally learning how to make peace with life.

Are we talking about adaptability here?

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