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The Wounded Eagle: The Twilight of a System

Started by analogridge312 · · 👁 4 views · 45 replies

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Participants analogridge312Jerry Williams41Joshua Martinez7Carl Foster8Nicole Ramos3Ryan Gomez4Scott Rodriguez19Terry Brookswiredmason19Elizabeth Harris11Harold Martin10goldengull3Anthony Booth4wearytrucker22Timothy Mitchell29nimbleowl10rustywalker82brightfalcon66Joseph Coxplacidgull11
analogridge312 analogridge312 MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jul 2011
#1 ·
Back in 2007, everything looked absolutely pristine. The Dotcom bubble from the turn of the century seemed like ancient history, the US Dollar was being challenged by the Euro, and gold—having started its epic climb in late 2005—was trading at around $650 an ounce by the end of 2006. Some people, clearly seeing the writing on the wall back in 2005, had already started loading up on gold.
Between 2000 and 2003, the Federal Reserve slashed interest rates from 6.5% down to 1%, making money easier to grab than it had been in nearly forty years. The stage was perfectly set for yet another soap bubble, just waiting to burst like all the others before it.
If you look back, the history of market bubbles stretches all the way to the 1600s in the Netherlands, when Tulip Mania hit such a fever pitch that a single top-tier bulb could fetch what amounts to $60,000 today. Then, in the 1920s, the American stock market inflated itself into another massive bubble that popped spectacularly in 1929, triggering the Great Depression. We saw a slightly less dramatic version of that same cycle in 2000 when the Dotcom bubble burst. At the end of the day, the two engines driving these events are always the same: pure greed and paralyzing fear.
It took about six or seven years for that greed to inflate a brand new bubble. During that stretch, real estate prices climbed like crazy; bankers were practically salivating, handing out loans left and right to developers, homebuyers, and everyone else in between because those low Federal Reserve rates made it feel like a free lunch. To the uninitiated, it all looked pretty idyllic.
From mid-2004 to mid-2006, the Federal Reserve hiked rates from 1% up to 5.25%, tightening the money supply. By 2007, the American housing market hit its peak, and the new bubble was primed to pop. But this time, it felt different. It felt like it might be the last one.
The collapse of the American housing market triggered the credit crunch of 2008. The institutions deemed "too big to fail" found themselves under the protection of the government, while those that weren't—think Lehman Brothers or Bear Stearns—were swallowed up by competitors or wiped out entirely. The show was just getting started; we were only witnessing the opening act.
In essence, the first act involved banks, massive corporations like AIG and General Motors, and, of course, the masses on Main Street. The Federal Reserve suddenly realized they were in deep trouble and, between late 2007 and early 2009, dropped rates from 5.25% all the way down to 0.25%!!?!!?? And then our newly elected Mr. Change basically spat in his own face, continuing to shovel hundreds of billions of US Dollars into the hands of the very people who caused the crisis in the first place.
It’s almost as if these guys enjoy trying to put out a fire with gasoline!
For a while, they were just shooting blanks, pouring more fuel on the flames and digging themselves even deeper. All while this virtual financial virus was tearing through the rest of the world. Now, we’re moving into the second round of the crisis.
Then, around 2009, the conversation shifted toward sovereign debt. Bingo. That’s when I knew. Everything we've seen so far is child's play compared to this. Last year, the media started acting like Greece was drowning in debt. Now, the financial noose is tightening around Spain, Portugal, Italy, Belgium, the United Kingdom, Ireland, the United States, Japan... Decades of the widening gap between production and consumption—or rather, debt-fueled spending—are finally coming due. Living on borrowed time is possible, sure, but not indefinitely; eventually, the house of cards built on overextension collapses.
On August 2nd, the US Congress is expected to vote on raising the debt ceiling by another $14.3 trillion.
This feels like a defining historical moment. A negative outcome would mean national bankruptcy, which, if you ask me, would trigger a domino effect capable of completely finishing off an already shaky global economy. Personally, I’m rooting for that outcome, simply because it’s going to happen sooner or later. It’s better it happens now than later. Everything has its seasons, its rises and its falls. Everything is fleeting. We are living in a fascinating era where excess, inefficiency, ruthlessness, and the sheer senselessness and weakness of our current economic model are all being dragged into the light. The eagle is wounded; will it fall?
Jerry Williams41 Jerry Williams41 Member
39 messages
joined Oct 2012
#2 ·
Man, since you actually put in the work to type all this out, it would be pretty ridiculous to let this thread just sink into oblivion without a single response, so I guess I'll step in.

So, which eagle are we talking about?
Joshua Martinez7 Joshua Martinez7 Member
15 messages
joined Apr 2011
#3 ·
It’s really not that simple, though.

At the end of the day, consumption is what drives progress.

Without all that cheap money—you know, those rock-bottom interest rates from the Federal Reserve—there wouldn't be any credit, which means there wouldn't be any spending. The Federal Reserve didn't have much of a choice; they had to slash rates to record lows just to kickstart consumer spending.
Carl Foster8 Carl Foster8 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2014
#4 ·
Joshua Martinez7 said:It’s really not that simple, though.

At the end of the day, consumption is what drives progress.

Without all that cheap money—you know, those rock-bottom interest rates from the Federal Reserve—there wouldn't be any credit, which means there wouldn't be any spending. The Federal Reserve didn't have much of a choice; they had to slash rates to record lows just to kickstart consumer spending.


When money is cheap, its value drops for anyone who already holds it, assuming the expanded money supply isn't backed by actual economic growth.

While consumption might be the engine of progress, in this scenario, it's turning into the worst kind of consumerism where long-term consequences are just ignored. Besides, in the Western World, necessities were met long ago; now, people are mostly just chasing personal desires. During these periods of "prosperity" driven by cheap money, marketing experts find it easy to convince consumers that these things are actually their own desires. I suppose the satisfaction from fulfilling a desire fades quickly, but the debt stays. Meanwhile, new desires are manufactured and the debt just piles up.

Unrealistically low interest rates also mess with investment. They greenlight projects that only look profitable because the rates are so low. It wouldn't be an issue if rates stayed fixed, but they aren't. Since they can't go any lower, they eventually have to rise. Once rates start climbing, those investment projects fall below the profitability threshold, effectively trapping capital in a very inefficient system. With these types of projects, the moment you take on debt with interest higher than your profit margin, you create debt that is impossible to repay unless rates drop again... if they ever do. It's what you'd call unsustainable growth.
analogridge312 analogridge312 MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jul 2011
#5 ·
Had a bit of a frantic moment yesterday, which is how this piece came to be 🙂 😁

Jerry Williams41, you probably just slept through the realization that we’re talking about the American Bald Eagle, the very symbol of the USA...

Joshua Martinez7, I’m with Carl Foster on this one... At their core, things are actually quite simple...
The USA isn't the only player acting like a "drunk Russian" in this scenario. Honestly, we should start by looking at our own backyard...
Nicole Ramos3 Nicole Ramos3 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Aug 2011
#6 ·
Better to address this now than later 😉
analogridge312 analogridge312 MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jul 2011
#7 ·
360 people lurking here and all I get is a handful of comments!

Either I’ve just typed out absolute nonsense, or this is the cold, hard truth that everyone is too stunned to even argue with.😁
All things considered, the next few months are going to be a hell of a ride.🙂
Ryan Gomez4 Ryan Gomez4 Active Member
112 messages
joined Feb 2013
#8 ·
It’s pretty much impossible to collect a debt from someone who has enough firepower to blow up the entire planet.
Scott Rodriguez19 Scott Rodriguez19 Active Member
79 messages
joined Feb 2018
#9 ·
I am genuinely curious—what on earth happens after Tuesday if the Republicans and Democrats can't reach an agreement on raising the debt ceiling? I mean, what does that even look like in practice, and what kind of chaos are we looking at if the US actually defaults next week?
Terry Brooks Terry Brooks Newcomer
1 message
joined Jul 2011
#10 ·
analogridge312 said:360 people lurking here and all I get is a handful of comments!

Either I’ve just typed out absolute nonsense, or this is the cold, hard truth that everyone is too stunned to even argue with.😁
All things considered, the next few months are going to be a hell of a ride.🙂

It's all true. You nailed it, I agree with you... though I almost gave up at first because it's such a mess to read... jumping back and forth through different eras... if it were chronological, it would be easier to follow... maybe just some better spacing. Overall, my only gripes are technical.😁

But better late than never... I don't care about leaving a mess for thirty years after I'm gone. I'm done with the chaos and living life one day at a time.
analogridge312 analogridge312 MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jul 2011
#11 ·
Ryan Gomez4 said:It’s pretty much impossible to collect a debt from someone who has enough firepower to blow up the entire planet.

It’s a hell of a tightrope walk when you're trying not to default on the people holding all the cards—specifically China—especially when those same people have enough "fungus" in their arsenal to split the planet in half a couple of times over.
The "mushroom cloud" scenario remains the absolute worst-case fallout, but honestly, I don't see us ever actually hitting that button.
Personally, I’m rooting for that moment when the average person finally wakes up and realizes just how much they've been screwed over. If we ever hit a total economic collapse, it might actually be the perfect time for everyone to collectively give the establishment a massive middle finger.

Scott Rodriguez19 said:I am genuinely curious—what on earth happens after Tuesday if the Republicans and Democrats can't reach an agreement on raising the debt ceiling? I mean, what does that even look like in practice, and what kind of chaos are we looking at if the US actually defaults next week?

Me too!😁
I suspect this will probably slide through Congress, which would really just be delaying the inevitable. If it doesn't pass, honestly, it’ll only serve to convince me that there are shadows lurking behind the throne, pulling all the strings without a single shred of regard for anyone else. But even if it does go through, I can smell a massive collapse on the horizon.😁

Nothing ever really comes of anything, and honestly, it’s probably best that it doesn't—because if things actually started moving, we wouldn't be able to handle the fallout anyway. 🧐

Terry Brooks
Go ahead and just lose yourself in the Kama Sutra; who cares about tomorrow when you're feeling this way?😁
Carl Foster8 Carl Foster8 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2014
#12 ·
analogridge312 said:It’s a hell of a tightrope walk when you're trying not to default on the people holding all the cards—specifically China—especially when those same people have enough "fungus" in their arsenal to split the planet in half a couple of times over.
The "mushroom cloud" scenario remains the absolute worst-case fallout, but honestly, I don't see us ever actually hitting that button.
Personally, I’m rooting for that moment when the average person finally wakes up and realizes just how much they've been screwed over. If we ever hit a total economic collapse, it might actually be the perfect time for everyone to collectively give the establishment a massive middle finger.

Me too!😁
I suspect this will probably slide through Congress, which would really just be delaying the inevitable. If it doesn't pass, honestly, it’ll only serve to convince me that there are shadows lurking behind the throne, pulling all the strings without a single shred of regard for anyone else. But even if it does go through, I can smell a massive collapse on the horizon.😁

Nothing ever really comes of anything, and honestly, it’s probably best that it doesn't—because if things actually started moving, we wouldn't be able to handle the fallout anyway. 🧐

Terry Brooks
Go ahead and just lose yourself in the Kama Sutra; who cares about tomorrow when you're feeling this way?😁

I think you missed the point here... if we're sitting in the top 20% of the wealthiest people in the world, then we're the ones doing the screwing, and we're the ones who'll eventually get screwed.

The only way you'll feel better about this is if you're part of the group getting crushed. 🙂
analogridge312 analogridge312 MemberOP
11 messages
joined Jul 2011
#13 ·
Carl Foster8 said:I think you missed the point here... if we're sitting in the top 20% of the wealthiest people in the world, then we're the ones doing the screwing, and we're the ones who'll eventually get screwed.

The only way you'll feel better about this is if you're part of the group getting crushed. 🙂

I don't think we're on the same page here. When I said that common folks are being taken for a ride, I was talking on a global scale because this isn't just some isolated local issue. Banks and massive corporations are screwing us all over, regardless of whether we're white, Black, Asian, or any other skin color—some more than others. Even here in the States, you've got people starving and families living right on the edge of total ruin.
A lot of Americans feel absolutely cheated, like when they were saddled with those predatory foreign currency clauses tied to the Swiss Franc. It’s the same story everywhere, locally and globally, and the list goes on forever.
wiredmason19 wiredmason19 Member
19 messages
joined Jun 2009
#14 ·
analogridge312 said:360 people lurking here and all I get is a handful of comments!

Either I’ve just typed out absolute nonsense, or this is the cold, hard truth that everyone is too stunned to even argue with.😁
All things considered, the next few months are going to be a hell of a ride.🙂

I read that too, but since I don't know enough about economics to write a sophisticated analysis, I just sat back, read it, and waited until today to see if anyone had actually started a real conversation about it...🙂

And yeah, I’d much rather have one solid, insightful post than ten mindless ones—though I suppose I might be falling into that second category myself, but whatever...
Joshua Martinez7 Joshua Martinez7 Member
15 messages
joined Apr 2011
#15 ·
Carl Foster8 said:When money is cheap, its value drops for anyone who already holds it, assuming the expanded money supply isn't backed by actual economic growth.

While consumption might be the engine of progress, in this scenario, it's turning into the worst kind of consumerism where long-term consequences are just ignored. Besides, in the Western World, necessities were met long ago; now, people are mostly just chasing personal desires. During these periods of "prosperity" driven by cheap money, marketing experts find it easy to convince consumers that these things are actually their own desires. I suppose the satisfaction from fulfilling a desire fades quickly, but the debt stays. Meanwhile, new desires are manufactured and the debt just piles up.

Unrealistically low interest rates also mess with investment. They greenlight projects that only look profitable because the rates are so low. It wouldn't be an issue if rates stayed fixed, but they aren't. Since they can't go any lower, they eventually have to rise. Once rates start climbing, those investment projects fall below the profitability threshold, effectively trapping capital in a very inefficient system. With these types of projects, the moment you take on debt with interest higher than your profit margin, you create debt that is impossible to repay unless rates drop again... if they ever do. It's what you'd call unsustainable growth.


So, what's your grand recommendation then?

Even in America, this consumerist rot is everywhere. Honestly, the best move would be for the Federal Reserve to devalue the US Dollar and hike interest rates from something like 3% up to 16%. That way, families currently earning $3000 monthly while struggling to cover $2000 mortgage and car payments would suddenly be facing $3333. The banks could just foreclose on the houses and cars, leaving them to fight over space under a bridge.

The USA didn't really have a choice; making money "cheap" to jumpstart spending (and by extension, production and jobs) was the only path forward. Even if it felt like trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it. Raising rates back then would have triggered consequences that were incomparably worse.
Carl Foster8 Carl Foster8 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2014
#16 ·
Joshua Martinez7 said:So, what's your grand recommendation then?

Even in America, this consumerist rot is everywhere. Honestly, the best move would be for the Federal Reserve to devalue the US Dollar and hike interest rates from something like 3% up to 16%. That way, families currently earning $3000 monthly while struggling to cover $2000 mortgage and car payments would suddenly be facing $3333. The banks could just foreclose on the houses and cars, leaving them to fight over space under a bridge.

The USA didn't really have a choice; making money "cheap" to jumpstart spending (and by extension, production and jobs) was the only path forward. Even if it felt like trying to put out a fire by pouring gasoline on it. Raising rates back then would have triggered consequences that were incomparably worse.

Maybe high inflation is the only thing that saves debtors. For me, as a debtor, I guess that works in my favor. But at the same time, I realize it isn't fair to the people who actually saved their money, essentially losing what they sacrificed so I could buy things on credit.

It’s the same moral hazard—or maybe just plain ignorance—that bankers used to start the financial crisis. Debtors did the same thing with $3000 income and $2000 loans. Maybe they weren't even aware, or perhaps they just assumed that if things went south again, everyone would scramble to fix it.

Would you even take out a loan that ate up 60% of your income?
Jerry Williams41 Jerry Williams41 Member
39 messages
joined Oct 2012
#17 ·
See, I told you I’d eventually circle back to that whole eagle thing. Most people don't realize that up in Alaska, you can't even lay a finger on a fallen bald eagle feather without running into legal trouble. Then again, it's not like that bird is some sacred symbol for the USA or anything, though people act like it is.

You really shouldn't lose sleep over what Americans are doing, because this entire situation is basically just a giant game of chicken; eventually, the Chinese will have to cave and let the RMB market find its own level. That’s the heart of this whole crisis, and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the US comes out on top, which would mean they can just trade more iPhones and Boeings for cheap Chinese T-shirts. Here is how it plays out: first the dollar dips, then oil and commodities skyrocket, and when that fails to fix things, American consumer spending tanks, leading straight to a default. None of that works in favor of China, especially since they've already had to aggressively subsidize their own domestic spending, and they'll keep having to do it.

And just to set the record straight on that one inaccurate claim floating around—according to my sources, that bulb didn't go for $60k, it actually went for about €300k. Think of it like someone dropping fifty grand on a single bulb that would be worth that much today.
Elizabeth Harris11 Elizabeth Harris11 Member
22 messages
joined Mar 2012
#18 ·
The idea that Americans are going broke is just plain wrong—I was actually out there just two weeks ago, and you can tell they’re shaking off that recession funk. Construction is everywhere, shopping malls are absolutely packed, and honestly, you can practically smell the money in the air.
All this noise about the debt ceiling? It's nothing more than a smoke screen to distract us from the real fight, which is all about tax burdens. That's where the actual battle lines are being drawn right now.
Joshua Martinez7 Joshua Martinez7 Member
15 messages
joined Apr 2011
#19 ·
Carl Foster8 said:Maybe high inflation is the only thing that saves debtors. For me, as a debtor, I guess that works in my favor. But at the same time, I realize it isn't fair to the people who actually saved their money, essentially losing what they sacrificed so I could buy things on credit.

It’s the same moral hazard—or maybe just plain ignorance—that bankers used to start the financial crisis. Debtors did the same thing with $3000 income and $2000 loans. Maybe they weren't even aware, or perhaps they just assumed that if things went south again, everyone would scramble to fix it.

Would you even take out a loan that ate up 60% of your income?

Actually, most of these loans are pegged to the exchange rate of a foreign currency, like the Euro, so inflation wouldn't even help the debtors here—it might actually make things worse. Plus, interest rates aren't usually fixed anyway.

I wouldn't touch a loan like that with a ten-foot pole, but plenty of people did. And then what? What are we supposed to do with them? Just toss them under a bridge? Do you really think mass evictions and seizing cars from people who took out bad loans is going to jumpstart the economy?
Carl Foster8 Carl Foster8 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2014
#20 ·
Joshua Martinez7 said:Actually, most of these loans are pegged to the exchange rate of a foreign currency, like the Euro, so inflation wouldn't even help the debtors here—it might actually make things worse. Plus, interest rates aren't usually fixed anyway.

I wouldn't touch a loan like that with a ten-foot pole, but plenty of people did. And then what? What are we supposed to do with them? Just toss them under a bridge? Do you really think mass evictions and seizing cars from people who took out bad loans is going to jumpstart the economy?

The bit about inflation was referring to the USA, but that same inflation can hit the Eurozone too.

And do you seriously think banks are going to go around mass-evicting people and sawing off the very branch they're sitting on? That’s why I’m saying this is unconscious moral hazard. If anything, debtors might have the upper hand now, because I wonder which bank could actually survive a massive wave of foreclosures and the resulting crash in property values.

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