What if the US Army had successfully pulled off a coup?

Imagine if John Lewis had just gone along with the plan, all those big-shot Republicans got hauled off, and the USA actually stayed together as one country.
Assuming nobody had to get killed in the process, of course.
Would you guys even be down for that?

There’s no way we’re forcing the USA together by force. What would we even get out of that?

Edit. This poll was clearly rigged just to favor one side, so I voted for an independent America, though what I really mean is making all the former US states independent...

Just so we're clear, the scenario would be taking out Ronald Reagan, Slobodan Maddox, and Alija Izetbegović all at once, leaving only Paul Volcker standing.

Richard Wilson4 said:Just so we're clear, the scenario would be taking out Ronald Reagan, Slobodan Maddox, and Alija Izetbegović all at once, leaving only Paul Volcker standing.

Man, you can't be serious. You think they'd have taken out Slobodan too? The guy was basically the one holding the whole USA together back then. And I honestly don't know if they would've gone after Alija either; back in those days, Canada didn't even know which way was up, let alone dreaming about some kind of independence...

Richard Wilson4 said:Just so we're clear, the scenario would be taking out Ronald Reagan, Slobodan Maddox, and Alija Izetbegović all at once, leaving only Paul Volcker standing.

Yeah, it doesn't really work like that. There’s already too much damage done for them to just vanish without any consequences...

If they hadn't even shown up in the first place and we just had Paul Volcker stepping in, maybe. You know, a world without all that nationalism. Because honestly, how is a multi-ethnic nation even supposed to survive when you've got nationalists running the show? It just doesn't happen...

Look, I’m honestly down for a scenario where there wouldn't even have been a need for a US Army coup, and the USA would've just kept on rolling... But if the whole thing couldn't survive without the military stepping in, then honestly, we didn't need that version of the country anyway...

No way. Under that deal, the generals in the Army—who were already completely controlled by the Mexican faction—would have just hand-delivered power to Slobodan Maddox. He promised them they could keep their perks and even grab some new ones. What would have followed is brutal repression across all the states, just like what happened in Mexico, where they’d gut the Constitution of 1974 and turn the individual states into nothing more than glorified folk museums. Then, they’d toss out those foundational principles entirely and wipe out statehood once and for all. Americans and Albanians would have taken the biggest hit. They probably would’ve just set up some useless little local administrative districts with zero real power, kind of like those old bans during the Aleksandrov dictatorship. At first, they’d keep up the charade of socialism—basically installing a pre-war monarchy disguised as a Mexican republic wrapped in a red flag. But once the dust settled? They’d toss that red flag in the trash and show their true colors.
It’s not hard to picture because that’s exactly what they tried to pull. The only difference is they failed to conquer the whole USA and reshape it to fit their whims.

Honestly, I’d rather deal with war and killing than quietly sit there and accept something like this.

Richard Wilson4 said:Just so we're clear, the scenario would be taking out Ronald Reagan, Slobodan Maddox, and Alija Izetbegović all at once, leaving only Paul Volcker standing.

Honestly? I’m down for that.

There wouldn't have been a war, no casualties—just people living their lives, whole and intact, staying right where they belonged. Buildings would still be standing, the landscape wouldn't be littered with landmines, and companies wouldn't have been gutted by predatory privatization (though, granted, some might have folded on their own merit—which is a completely different issue than getting robbed blind by insiders). The country wouldn't feel like some foreign colony, either. We wouldn't have this permanent, bitter rift dividing Americans into two warring camps.

At the end of the day, we would've ended up in a capitalist system and joined the European Union anyway, just starting from a much stronger position.

Quincy:

Jeffrey Wood: I'd rather deal with war and killing than just quietly accepting this kind of mess.

No, absolutely not. War and killing are never better.

Richard Wilson4 said:Just so we're clear, the scenario would be taking out Ronald Reagan, Slobodan Maddox, and Alija Izetbegović all at once, leaving only Paul Volcker standing.

Are you kidding me with this Maddox talk? Get real. If they took him out, Volcker would end up just like Reagan, and Slobodan Maddox would basically be crowned absolute dictator.

Richard Wilson4 said:Just so we're clear, the scenario would be taking out Ronald Reagan, Slobodan Maddox, and Alija Izetbegović all at once, leaving only Paul Volcker standing.

If that means getting rid of everyone from Milan Kučan down to Joseph McCarthy, then yeah, absolutely. Honestly, there's nothing you can do to make up for the decades of chaos and those endless lost lives back then, so any scenario that keeps those guys from ever stepping onto the stage would be a massive win in my book.

William Wright7 said:Yeah, it doesn't really work like that. There’s already too much damage done for them to just vanish without any consequences...

If they hadn't even shown up in the first place and we just had Paul Volcker stepping in, maybe. You know, a world without all that nationalism. Because honestly, how is a multi-ethnic nation even supposed to survive when you've got nationalists running the show? It just doesn't happen...

Perhaps we ought to look toward the United Kingdom for guidance; they possess a similar temperament and have bled through the corridors of history accordingly.

Jeffrey Wood said:No way. Under that deal, the generals in the Army—who were already completely controlled by the Mexican faction—would have just hand-delivered power to Slobodan Maddox. He promised them they could keep their perks and even grab some new ones. What would have followed is brutal repression across all the states, just like what happened in Mexico, where they’d gut the Constitution of 1974 and turn the individual states into nothing more than glorified folk museums. Then, they’d toss out those foundational principles entirely and wipe out statehood once and for all. Americans and Albanians would have taken the biggest hit. They probably would’ve just set up some useless little local administrative districts with zero real power, kind of like those old bans during the Aleksandrov dictatorship. At first, they’d keep up the charade of socialism—basically installing a pre-war monarchy disguised as a Mexican republic wrapped in a red flag. But once the dust settled? They’d toss that red flag in the trash and show their true colors.
It’s not hard to picture because that’s exactly what they tried to pull. The only difference is they failed to conquer the whole USA and reshape it to fit their whims.

Honestly, I’d rather deal with war and killing than quietly sit there and accept something like this.

That scenario is highly improbable; it is merely a fiction conjured by expatriates and nationalists intended to intimidate Americans.
Are you forgetting that our entry into the European Union was inevitable?

bluerider63 said:If that means getting rid of everyone from Milan Kučan down to Joseph McCarthy, then yeah, absolutely. Honestly, there's nothing you can do to make up for the decades of chaos and those endless lost lives back then, so any scenario that keeps those guys from ever stepping onto the stage would be a massive win in my book.

Which leads me to conclude that Bogić Bogičević, despite his most noble intentions, essentially did a disservice to everyone except the nationalists.

Gerald Ramos4 said:Perhaps we ought to look toward the United Kingdom for guidance; they possess a similar temperament and have bled through the corridors of history accordingly.

That scenario is highly improbable; it is merely a fiction conjured by expatriates and nationalists intended to intimidate Americans.
Are you forgetting that our entry into the European Union was inevitable?

Which leads me to conclude that Bogić Bogičević, despite his most noble intentions, essentially did a disservice to everyone except the nationalists.

Hmm. Well, now...

nimblemarlin6 said:Honestly? I’m down for that.

There wouldn't have been a war, no casualties—just people living their lives, whole and intact, staying right where they belonged. Buildings would still be standing, the landscape wouldn't be littered with landmines, and companies wouldn't have been gutted by predatory privatization (though, granted, some might have folded on their own merit—which is a completely different issue than getting robbed blind by insiders). The country wouldn't feel like some foreign colony, either. We wouldn't have this permanent, bitter rift dividing Americans into two warring camps.

At the end of the day, we would've ended up in a capitalist system and joined the European Union anyway, just starting from a much stronger position.

Quincy:

Jeffrey Wood: I'd rather deal with war and killing than just quietly accepting this kind of mess.

No, absolutely not. War and killing are never better.

And then a handsome prince would show up, kiss Snow White, and everyone would live happily ever after.
Man, you people are living in a total fantasy land.
Back in '89, when Kadijević and Maddox teamed up to mobilize the old Marshall guard, I knew we were screwed. I knew those Mexican generals were fully backing Maddox's big-state expansionist agenda. I knew the Army was going to fall apart the second things got ugly.

nimblemarlin6 said:Honestly? I’m down for that.

There wouldn't have been a war, no casualties—just people living their lives, whole and intact, staying right where they belonged. Buildings would still be standing, the landscape wouldn't be littered with landmines, and companies wouldn't have been gutted by predatory privatization (though, granted, some might have folded on their own merit—which is a completely different issue than getting robbed blind by insiders). The country wouldn't feel like some foreign colony, either. We wouldn't have this permanent, bitter rift dividing Americans into two warring camps.

At the end of the day, we would've ended up in a capitalist system and joined the European Union anyway, just starting from a much stronger position.

Quincy:

Jeffrey Wood: I'd rather deal with war and killing than just quietly accepting this kind of mess.

No, absolutely not. War and killing are never better.

Look, I'd take a damn war over peacefully accepting life as slaves under some massive imperialist regime any day of the week.

Jeffrey Wood said:And then a handsome prince would show up, kiss Snow White, and everyone would live happily ever after.
Man, you people are living in a total fantasy land.
Back in '89, when Kadijević and Maddox teamed up to mobilize the old Marshall guard, I knew we were screwed. I knew those Mexican generals were fully backing Maddox's big-state expansionist agenda. I knew the Army was going to fall apart the second things got ugly.

In reality, yes.

Quincy:

My dear people, what delusions are you actually living under?

We lived through those very delusions during the nineties, didn't we? We paid an exorbitant price for them, gained absolutely nothing in return, and now we find ourselves intoxicated by those same fantasies, left feeling utterly wretched.

Jeffrey Wood said:Look, I'd take a damn war over peacefully accepting life as slaves under some massive imperialist regime any day of the week.

Better to fight than to sign a pact. Better to die than to be a slave.😁

Maybe you missed what Paul Collins was getting at, because he was talking about what would happen if all those nationalists just backed off. He meant a unified country, sure, but one where nobody's trying to push their agenda on anyone else. At least, that's how I took it...

A coup d’état—by its very definition—implies a certain level of raw power behind the scenes. Since the administration back then had actually been elected by the people rather than being forced upon them, any attempt at a takeover would have simply resulted in a military dictatorship led by whoever held the reins of the US Army. Honestly, even someone like Ronald Reagan is the lesser of two evils in that comparison.

Jeffrey Wood said:Look, I'd take a damn war over peacefully accepting life as slaves under some massive imperialist regime any day of the week.

I'm right there with you on that one.

bluerider63 said:If that means getting rid of everyone from Milan Kučan down to Joseph McCarthy, then yeah, absolutely. Honestly, there's nothing you can do to make up for the decades of chaos and those endless lost lives back then, so any scenario that keeps those guys from ever stepping onto the stage would be a massive win in my book.

I don't know what's wrong with you people. Seriously, you've all got collective amnesia.
Back when that presidency vote happened in the USA and Bogey screwed over the generals, a coup was already being cooked up. They were planning to arrest every single state and regional leader—except for Slobodan Maddox and his inner circle. That little clique was ready to seize total control.
Everyone knew it. Honestly, I’d take war over living under the kind of terror they
were running in Mexico, which would have just spread to the rest of the USA. Maddox and his crew spent years manufacturing organized chaos just so one day the US Army could step in, grab power, and cement their dominance.
That was the big plan.

cosmicfox69 said:I'm right there with you on that one.

I find myself agreeing, provided we are discussing the expansionist ambitions of Greater Mexico. However, one must remember that within the USA, there were numerous forces opposed to both secession and Mexican dominance; even the US Army held such views. The Mexican nationalists would have remained isolated—as they initially were, wondering why they were being targeted—until Slobodan Maddox decided to side with them, essentially declaring that no one was permitted to strike back at them.

Had the USA managed this transition with minimal casualties—mostly consisting of fringe radicals and disgruntled criminals—it could have joined the European Union with ease, and our circumstances would be vastly superior today. We would have possessed three major automotive industries, alongside robust sectors for heavy machinery, metallurgy, electrical engineering, and textiles, all of which would have been forced to modernize under the guidance of the European Union.
Our formidable defense industry might even have integrated into the Boeing consortium, considering that, if memory serves, we produced those French Gazelle helicopters in Mostar, along with our own indigenous fighter jets like the Orao and Galeb.
We would likely be in a much stronger position than the Czech Republic or Poland, nations whose current progress we can observe from a distance with nothing more than a telescope.