Karma vs. Free Will

Neither one actually exists, at least not in the way most people imagine. If they did, the question of free will wouldn't be the fundamental struggle at the heart of every religion.

some other thread on this forum

If I’ve got one option, I don't have a choice. If I’ve got two, I’ve got a dilemma. If there are three, it’s a trilemma. So, who actually had enough options to even claim they have freedom?

If free will isn't real, how am I supposed to worry about karma? I mean, assuming past lives are a thing, if what I just said is true, then karma is being built under controlled (non-free) conditions. Or maybe there was just one life, back at the beginning, where we all had freedom and just blew it? Or, following Western teachings, it's all Adam and Eve's fault. That would imply freedom doesn't exist, which means karma can't exist either.

If there’s no freedom, then this whole setup is just a prison. Think about it—the only place where nobody is truly free is in jail. And once you start poking at metaphysical questions, you realize exactly what kind of prison this is. In that case, we've all actually lucked out, considering where we are.

It turns out God has a pretty twisted sense of humor, and honestly, I don't get it. I've spent my whole life praying to God and, above all, valuing wit. Now I'm wondering why my own sense of humor is so warped. Don't pray to God for a sense of humor. You'll just end up lost somewhere between karma and free will, concluding that you're living in hell. You're better off just watching Seinfeld.

gentlelynx6 said:Neither one actually exists, at least not in the way most people imagine. If they did, the question of free will wouldn't be the fundamental struggle at the heart of every religion.

some other thread on this forum

If I’ve got one option, I don't have a choice. If I’ve got two, I’ve got a dilemma. If there are three, it’s a trilemma. So, who actually had enough options to even claim they have freedom?

If free will isn't real, how am I supposed to worry about karma? I mean, assuming past lives are a thing, if what I just said is true, then karma is being built under controlled (non-free) conditions. Or maybe there was just one life, back at the beginning, where we all had freedom and just blew it? Or, following Western teachings, it's all Adam and Eve's fault. That would imply freedom doesn't exist, which means karma can't exist either.

If there’s no freedom, then this whole setup is just a prison. Think about it—the only place where nobody is truly free is in jail. And once you start poking at metaphysical questions, you realize exactly what kind of prison this is. In that case, we've all actually lucked out, considering where we are.

It turns out God has a pretty twisted sense of humor, and honestly, I don't get it. I've spent my whole life praying to God and, above all, valuing wit. Now I'm wondering why my own sense of humor is so warped. Don't pray to God for a sense of humor. You'll just end up lost somewhere between karma and free will, concluding that you're living in hell. You're better off just watching Seinfeld.

http://vimeo.com/17356261
Check this out; maybe some things will become clearer to you. I really liked it.

gentlelynx6 said:Neither one actually exists, at least not in the way most people imagine. If they did, the question of free will wouldn't be the fundamental struggle at the heart of every religion.

some other thread on this forum

If I’ve got one option, I don't have a choice. If I’ve got two, I’ve got a dilemma. If there are three, it’s a trilemma. So, who actually had enough options to even claim they have freedom?

If free will isn't real, how am I supposed to worry about karma? I mean, assuming past lives are a thing, if what I just said is true, then karma is being built under controlled (non-free) conditions. Or maybe there was just one life, back at the beginning, where we all had freedom and just blew it? Or, following Western teachings, it's all Adam and Eve's fault. That would imply freedom doesn't exist, which means karma can't exist either.

If there’s no freedom, then this whole setup is just a prison. Think about it—the only place where nobody is truly free is in jail. And once you start poking at metaphysical questions, you realize exactly what kind of prison this is. In that case, we've all actually lucked out, considering where we are.

It turns out God has a pretty twisted sense of humor, and honestly, I don't get it. I've spent my whole life praying to God and, above all, valuing wit. Now I'm wondering why my own sense of humor is so warped. Don't pray to God for a sense of humor. You'll just end up lost somewhere between karma and free will, concluding that you're living in hell. You're better off just watching Seinfeld.

No matter how many choices you're given, there is still no freedom. The issue isn't the quantity of options; it's the very act of choosing itself.

Austin Lee17 said:http://vimeo.com/17356261
Check this out; maybe some things will become clearer to you. I really liked it.

If anyone is interested, here’s a good way to watch them...

http://vimeo.com/17356261

http://vimeo.com/17030568

http://vimeo.com/17235707

http://vimeo.com/17230680

http://vimeo.com/17249826

http://vimeo.com/17105792

http://vimeo.com/17125789

http://www.vimeo.com/17167935

If you're interested, here’s the order I’d suggest watching these...

http://vimeo.com/17356261

http://vimeo.com/17030568

http://vimeo.com/17235707

http://vimeo.com/17230680

http://vimeo.com/17249826

http://vimeo.com/17105792

http://vimeo.com/17125789

http://www.vimeo.com/17167935

Austin Lee17 said:If you're interested, here’s the order I’d suggest watching these...

http://vimeo.com/17356261

http://vimeo.com/17030568

http://vimeo.com/17235707

http://vimeo.com/17230680

http://vimeo.com/17249826

http://vimeo.com/17105792

http://vimeo.com/17125789

http://www.vimeo.com/17167935

Sorry about the double post—made a mistake somewhere. I haven't checked in for months, then suddenly... an error...

If I’ve got one option, I’ve got no choice. If I’ve got two, I’m stuck in a dilemma. Three options and suddenly it’s a trilemma! But seriously, who actually had enough options to even call themselves free?

jademarlin26 said:No matter how many choices you're given, there is still no freedom. The issue isn't the quantity of options; it's the very act of choosing itself.

Honestly, this feels like nothing more than some linguistic gymnastics to me. Isn't freedom literally defined by having choices? Think about it: we become freer in direct proportion to our ability to recognize what drives our behavior, allowing us to pivot and shape our future to match what we actually want. At the end of the day, if you think those choices are stripping away your freedom, you’re still free to just call it quits on life altogether. I really don't think we can ever be "unfree," and if I’m being bold, I’d say freedom is just part of our DNA—it's just that very few people actually have the guts to use that rusty old tool.

Who actually had enough options to claim they were free?

An animal doesn't have options because it isn't even aware of them. It’s "free" to be a snack for a hungry tiger. But the second you gain the ability to build a shelter to hide from that tiger, you've clearly leveled up in the freedom department.

Having zero options—or lacking the awareness to even realize it—means you can't grasp concepts like freedom or any other abstraction. That’s why I think when we talk about freedom, we have to stay within a certain framework. Anything outside that frame is just "absolute," and once you go there, words lose all their power and become totally useless.

If we’re talking about freedom within its own context, then I’d say freedom is the ability to understand the mechanics that drive us and the world around us. Once we get that, we can develop desires that align with the nature of life and eventually fulfill them by simply living out our true selves. If a gazelle is built to master the art of stealth and sharp instincts, it finds fulfillment by leaning into those traits—death only happens if it gets sloppy. Similarly, if humans are designed with the potential to uncover the truth of existence, then our mission should be fulfilling that exact step: following the realization we discover.

Look, I can decide right now to grab a Hershey bar from the aisle and inhale the whole thing in fifteen minutes while I finish my shopping. Or I can just toss my receipt behind some shelves. Am I going to face any kind of TRANSCENDENTAL consequences for that? That’s the kind of cosmic retribution that science doesn't even recognize—science just cares if a security guard catches me and hands me a fine. If nobody saw it, then nothing happened, right? But then you have the religious types claiming I'm going to be punished. What, is someone going to sneak into my backyard and steal a bushel of grapes from my garden just to balance the scales!? 😍
Maybe they'll swipe five pounds of fruit. Or maybe twenty. And honestly, maybe they wouldn't even bother stealing a single grape if I hadn't taken that chocolate in the first place.

wearyhawk83 said:

If I’ve got one option, I’ve got no choice. If I’ve got two, I’m stuck in a dilemma. Three options and suddenly it’s a trilemma! But seriously, who actually had enough options to even call themselves free?

Honestly, this feels like nothing more than some linguistic gymnastics to me. Isn't freedom literally defined by having choices? Think about it: we become freer in direct proportion to our ability to recognize what drives our behavior, allowing us to pivot and shape our future to match what we actually want. At the end of the day, if you think those choices are stripping away your freedom, you’re still free to just call it quits on life altogether. I really don't think we can ever be "unfree," and if I’m being bold, I’d say freedom is just part of our DNA—it's just that very few people actually have the guts to use that rusty old tool.

Who actually had enough options to claim they were free?

An animal doesn't have options because it isn't even aware of them. It’s "free" to be a snack for a hungry tiger. But the second you gain the ability to build a shelter to hide from that tiger, you've clearly leveled up in the freedom department.

Having zero options—or lacking the awareness to even realize it—means you can't grasp concepts like freedom or any other abstraction. That’s why I think when we talk about freedom, we have to stay within a certain framework. Anything outside that frame is just "absolute," and once you go there, words lose all their power and become totally useless.

If we’re talking about freedom within its own context, then I’d say freedom is the ability to understand the mechanics that drive us and the world around us. Once we get that, we can develop desires that align with the nature of life and eventually fulfill them by simply living out our true selves. If a gazelle is built to master the art of stealth and sharp instincts, it finds fulfillment by leaning into those traits—death only happens if it gets sloppy. Similarly, if humans are designed with the potential to uncover the truth of existence, then our mission should be fulfilling that exact step: following the realization we discover.

There is nothing free about making a choice. Being conditioned by options isn't freedom. You move freely when you aren't overthinking it. If you are constantly thinking, "now I'll go left"... "now I'll go right"... "actually, maybe I'll just go straight", you aren't moving freely. One learns best through personal experience, and martial arts serve as an excellent testing ground for many spiritual theories. When you get hit, you realize you’ve imprisoned yourself within your own choices, effectively paralyzing your ability to act. When you act freely, everything flows smoothly. To achieve that flow, there is no left, no right, no up, and no down.

If I am driving to visit a friend on the other side of town and I take that route countless times, there are no intersections, no turns, and no decisions. I simply drive and arrive. However, if you follow me in your car watching my every move, suddenly there are intersections, traffic lights, and turns. In this scenario, you are practicing concentration and observation, while I am practicing free movement.

If a centipede had to contemplate which leg to move next—in other words, if it had to make a choice—it would never move at all.

jademarlin26 said:There is nothing free about making a choice. Being conditioned by options isn't freedom. You move freely when you aren't overthinking it. If you are constantly thinking, "now I'll go left"... "now I'll go right"... "actually, maybe I'll just go straight", you aren't moving freely. One learns best through personal experience, and martial arts serve as an excellent testing ground for many spiritual theories. When you get hit, you realize you’ve imprisoned yourself within your own choices, effectively paralyzing your ability to act. When you act freely, everything flows smoothly. To achieve that flow, there is no left, no right, no up, and no down.

If I am driving to visit a friend on the other side of town and I take that route countless times, there are no intersections, no turns, and no decisions. I simply drive and arrive. However, if you follow me in your car watching my every move, suddenly there are intersections, traffic lights, and turns. In this scenario, you are practicing concentration and observation, while I am practicing free movement.

If a centipede had to contemplate which leg to move next—in other words, if it had to make a choice—it would never move at all.

So, does that mean an animal is more free than us, even though they're stuck in a way worse spot in life?

Benjamin Taylor6 said:Look, I can decide right now to grab a Hershey bar from the aisle and inhale the whole thing in fifteen minutes while I finish my shopping. Or I can just toss my receipt behind some shelves. Am I going to face any kind of TRANSCENDENTAL consequences for that? That’s the kind of cosmic retribution that science doesn't even recognize—science just cares if a security guard catches me and hands me a fine. If nobody saw it, then nothing happened, right? But then you have the religious types claiming I'm going to be punished. What, is someone going to sneak into my backyard and steal a bushel of grapes from my garden just to balance the scales!? 😍
Maybe they'll swipe five pounds of fruit. Or maybe twenty. And honestly, maybe they wouldn't even bother stealing a single grape if I hadn't taken that chocolate in the first place.

You're basically just asking questions and answering them yourself. Maybe it's time you just move on already.

jademarlin26 said:There is nothing free about making a choice. Being conditioned by options isn't freedom. You move freely when you aren't overthinking it. If you are constantly thinking, "now I'll go left"... "now I'll go right"... "actually, maybe I'll just go straight", you aren't moving freely. One learns best through personal experience, and martial arts serve as an excellent testing ground for many spiritual theories. When you get hit, you realize you’ve imprisoned yourself within your own choices, effectively paralyzing your ability to act. When you act freely, everything flows smoothly. To achieve that flow, there is no left, no right, no up, and no down.

If I am driving to visit a friend on the other side of town and I take that route countless times, there are no intersections, no turns, and no decisions. I simply drive and arrive. However, if you follow me in your car watching my every move, suddenly there are intersections, traffic lights, and turns. In this scenario, you are practicing concentration and observation, while I am practicing free movement.

If a centipede had to contemplate which leg to move next—in other words, if it had to make a choice—it would never move at all.

Actually, I'd argue the exact opposite: freedom is found in the choosing.
The more options you have to choose from, the greater your freedom or lack of limits.
What you're describing as "free movement"—moving without thinking where you're going—is something else entirely. That's just muscle memory or acting on autopilot.
The reason you don't have to think when you head over to your friend's place is because you've been there a thousand times already. Everything is programmed into your brain; it's happening automatically. That doesn't have anything to do with the freedom of choice or decision-making.
At the end of the day, you're still the one who decided to go to your friend's house in the first place, not someone else.

wearyhawk83 said:So, does that mean an animal is more free than us, even though they're stuck in a way worse spot in life?

On what basis are we establishing a scale for a "better" or "worse" position regarding the pursuit of life (whatever that implies to you)?

wearyhawk83 said:You're basically just asking questions and answering them yourself. Maybe it's time you just move on already.

DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE WITH ME HERE?

But where is there even to go?

I just hope my answer isn't as blunt as something a janitor might tell a drunk, retired professor. I remember this one guy—completely wasted—standing out on the sidewalk in front of a dive bar late one evening, shouting at the sky about where he was headed, what his path was...
And the janitor just looks at him and goes: "You old fool, and you actually went to college. All roads lead to Arlington National Cemetery."😲😲😂

jademarlin26 said:On what basis are we establishing a scale for a "better" or "worse" position regarding the pursuit of life (whatever that implies to you)?

It’s all about instinct and drive! Every living thing is hardwired to follow the flow of life—you just have to look at the entire animal and plant kingdom to see it in action. Humans are the only ones who actually have to work to wrap their heads around it.

I totally get where you're coming from, but in my posts, I was really trying to emphasize the idea of degrees. I know we're splitting hairs here because if we want to be strictly technical, freedom can only ever be absolute—and if we go down that road, there's honestly nothing left to say. But since we're diving into this, I figured we'd assume a specific context, because there are definitely nuances when you talk about how much someone is "conditioned." Maybe it would have been clearer if I just used terms like "more or less free" or "more or less conditioned."

Benjamin Taylor6 said:DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY DISAGREE WITH ME HERE?

But where is there even to go?

I just hope my answer isn't as blunt as something a janitor might tell a drunk, retired professor. I remember this one guy—completely wasted—standing out on the sidewalk in front of a dive bar late one evening, shouting at the sky about where he was headed, what his path was...
And the janitor just looks at him and goes: "You old fool, and you actually went to college. All roads lead to Arlington National Cemetery."😲😲😂

Plenty of people have tried to help, but in the end, the only answer that actually matters is the one you figure out for yourself.

Where do you even go from here?

That’s the wrong question, and it'll just leave you spinning your wheels. It’s not about *where* to go, it’s about *how* to go.

The idea of having total free will is honestly just a drop in the ocean of our limitations. We're way more shackled by the laws of nature and the whole cause-and-effect grind than anything else. I’m convinced "degree of conditioning" is actually the better way to put it—that’s really what I was getting at in my previous posts. It’s what sets us apart from every other living thing on this planet. As for why we act like beggars when we're actually kings? That’s a whole different rabbit hole, and honestly, that's exactly why this PDF exists.

r0nin said:Talking about freedom without actually doing anything is just noise. Or, as > might call it, just "linguistic gymnastics." It’s like we're pretending intuition exists independently from action. It doesn't. Just because you made a choice based on the best info you had at the time doesn't mean you're suddenly "free."

I'm not really sure what you mean by "noise," because I think I'm being pretty specific here.
Every single decision you make belongs to you; you're the one who pulled the trigger.
If you aren't making a choice, there's honestly no point in debating it—it's just wordplay at that point.
Look, we make hundreds of tiny decisions every single day. Does that make us free?
Probably not, since we're basically forced to make them just to function.
But we still get to choose what we actually want out of life.
That's where the actual freedom lies, I guess.

casualmaker13 said:I'm not really sure what you mean by "noise," because I think I'm being pretty specific here.
Every single decision you make belongs to you; you're the one who pulled the trigger.
If you aren't making a choice, there's honestly no point in debating it—it's just wordplay at that point.
Look, we make hundreds of tiny decisions every single day. Does that make us free?
Probably not, since we're basically forced to make them just to function.
But we still get to choose what we actually want out of life.
That's where the actual freedom lies, I guess.

Keep dreaming sweet dreams, right up until you decide it’s time to wake up. 🙂

Austin Lee17 said:http://vimeo.com/17356261
Check this out; maybe some things will become clearer to you. I really liked it.

Honestly, everyone needs to see this... I've been feeling everything this incredible woman said in her interview deep in my soul for a long time now. And if we just look—just a little bit—with our hearts instead of our minds, which are constantly flooded with more misinformation than actual facts, we can quickly realize that the truth already lives within us. It’s a truth currently locked away by all the social norms and biases they drill into us from the moment we're born... but it's the truth that holds the key to humanity's future!

Olivia Smith9 said:Honestly, everyone needs to see this... I've been feeling everything this incredible woman said in her interview deep in my soul for a long time now. And if we just look—just a little bit—with our hearts instead of our minds, which are constantly flooded with more misinformation than actual facts, we can quickly realize that the truth already lives within us. It’s a truth currently locked away by all the social norms and biases they drill into us from the moment we're born... but it's the truth that holds the key to humanity's future!

Kamala Harris knows exactly what she's talking about. Honestly, let's just grab some tools, head out to the countryside, and get back to basics. Forget the high-tech manufacturing, the massive industrial furnaces, and those endless assembly lines. A simple life in nature—that's where the real comfort is, my 😍
It seems like our Vice President picked up a few ideas from the lady in this video.