Toxic family dynamics: How do you deal with it?

gentlemaker102 said:I personally believe that men can be extremely tidy and clean, and I don't think it's necessarily a matter of how they were raised—it's more about who they are as individuals. Perhaps, though, it could be a way of showing respect for the effort their parents put into maintaining the home. And really, there shouldn't be such things as "men's chores" or "women's chores." It's perfectly reasonable that a woman might not want to go out and chop wood if there are men in the house, or handle concrete work or moving heavy furniture—those are traditionally masculine tasks—but that doesn't mean a man should live in a pigsty or neglect his responsibilities entirely. On the other hand, I struggle to understand women who allow that to happen either. It feels like it should be part of our nature, somehow. Why wouldn't anyone want to help their mother by tidying up their room or the basement? Or, eventually, their spouse?
Anyway, credit to you for your hard work, but just a word of caution... once you show someone exactly how much you're capable of and how much you know... they will always try to take advantage of you.

Back when I was a sophomore living in the dorms at State University, I definitely got taken advantage of. Especially by my roommates back then. I know how that goes, so I'll follow your advice and stay mindful of that in the future.

Look, Zachary James5, you aren't alone in this. I’m dealing with the exact same mess, except my parents won't stop tearing me down. They won't even let me sleep more than seven hours, they constantly belittle everything I do, call me crazy... honestly, the house is a total pigsty. It’s enough to make you lose your lunch just walking through the door.

They love lecturing me on what and when to eat, which is rich coming from people who are all overweight themselves—me included, sure, but they're the last people on earth who should be handing out diet advice.
As for messy divorces and cheating? Yeah, I've checked those boxes too. I’m grinding through my Master’s degree right now. It’s an uphill battle, but I’ll get there. Honestly, the only reason I’m actually finishing is because I couldn't stand being at Home Depot most of the time; I was always running off somewhere else just so I could find a quiet corner to study.

Some situations, some people, some absolute disasters—you just can't change them, and they're always going to hit you. But your number one priority right now is getting that degree in your hand. Grind through the online classes—just don't screw up your credits—and then start building a life for yourself far away from all of them. My mom has leaned into this dynamic so much that she's beyond help at this point; the best thing she could ever do is just see us succeed and leave it at that.

Keep your head up.

@rapidcobra

Keep your chin up.

I noticed that Zachary James5 was sharing some thoughts earlier, and it really got me thinking about how much our surroundings influence our daily rhythm. It’s funny how a simple change in scenery or even just a different way of organizing our workspace can completely shift your perspective on a project. I remember back when I was working on a renovation project over in Seattle, spending hours at Home Depot picking out materials, and I realized that the small details we often overlook are actually what give a space its soul. There's something quite peaceful about that process, isn't there? Just taking things one step at a time and watching everything come together. kaže:
When I first brought this up, my intention wasn't to be difficult; I was simply trying to frame the conversation in a way that would allow you to tell me exactly what areas you were most interested in exploring. I wanted to pose a question that would act as a guide, helping us pinpoint the specific topics that truly matter to you.
So, what exactly is your end goal here? If you could clarify what you're aiming to achieve, I’ll be able to provide a much more thoughtful and helpful response for you.

I feel like I might not be being quite clear enough in my explanations, and I'm sorry if I've left you feeling a bit muddled or confused by my reasoning. 😁

Zachary James5 said:I’ve got a massive problem with my parents. And honestly, just with my whole family.

For four years, I lived in a boarding school—except for summers and holidays—and it’s only now, right before I head off to college, that I’m realizing just how different we all are.

Let me give you a few examples:

I’m an organized person. Back at school, I had a ton of stuff, so I had to keep everything within reach, but it was all neatly arranged, even if my room felt tiny. I’d clean at least twice a week, take out the trash regularly, and so on. You could say I was almost excessively tidy—a bit of a "nerd" or a "geek," I guess.
But my parents, my sister, and my grandma are my total opposites.

My mom in her own house and my grandma in hers are the only people who actually know where anything is located. For instance, when you go looking for a screwdriver and can’t find it in the garage, so you ask the "bosses" where it went, they’ll tell you it’s in the bathroom! It drives me crazy because it makes zero sense.

Or when I need to put things back that they’ve picked up. Like, say, a piece of wood my dad used for a project, and when I ask him where to put it back, he just says, “Just put it over there.”
Needless to say, I have no idea what "there" actually means. When I take it somewhere I think is appropriate, like the workshop, they just tell me, “Don't blame me, you don't know any better.”

You’d think life would be easier if things were kept in some kind of order, but when you have a hundred items scattered all over the house like this, it’s a total disaster.

Furthermore, I hate it when they tell me what to do. The most banal, irritating example is when they lecture me—a skinny guy—about what I should eat and how much. Aside from my sister, they’re all pretty large.
They’re constantly offering me food. After lunch, they’ll tell me to have more, try a little of this, or ask if I want dessert.
When I was at boarding school, I had a set meal schedule. I’d eat five or six times a day, eating as healthy as possible. Since I was living there, I didn't have the chance to cook for myself. I tried to keep my diet varied and ate plenty of fruits and vegetables because I played sports and stayed active, studying not just for school but researching things I was personally interested in.

I can’t talk about anything with them because they’re stuck in their own weird heads. My father talks to my grandma—his mother—constantly, maybe thirty times a day, and all they ever discuss is what they ate, or something I said once, or blah blah blah... She is the most important person in his life.

One last thing: there was almost a car accident recently. I wasn't there, but my father told me how he nearly got into a physical fight with the other driver. He was furious for a while, and then he came up with the stupidest reason I’ve ever heard: he blamed my mom because she didn't stop him from fighting, even though he didn't actually fight anyone. I immediately thought, how idiotic is that? Why does he need her? Does he need someone to babysit him?
It goes without saying that he blames my mother for everything that goes wrong in his life.

I want to know how to deal with this suffocating feeling of pressure and how to get through these next few months.
I can't live normally; it’s such a strange sensation. They expect me to talk to them, but I won't, because I don't really trust them. During the worst parts of my puberty, they weren't there for me or gave me any support at all.
Things were worse before; I was just a kid, terrified they were going to get a divorce. My father used to threaten my mother with that constantly, ever since we started going on summer vacations together. I didn't have a great childhood, but I don't want to cry about it—that's in the past. Now I have a different problem that I think I can solve. Or maybe I can't. But I want to do something about it.

One last thing I should probably mention: there was almost a serious accident on the road earlier today. I wasn't actually there to witness it firsthand, but my father was driving through the area and told me all about how things nearly went sideways. I almost ended up in a physical altercation with that other driver earlier today. It was one of those incredibly tense moments where things escalated so quickly, though I managed to keep my cool. There was this one time when he was absolutely fuming, acting like the world was ending, only to eventually blurt out the most ridiculous excuse I’ve ever had the displeasure of hearing. He actually tried to pin the blame on his mother, claiming it was all her fault because she didn't step in and stop him from getting into a fight—even though, in reality, no fight ever even took place!

I had been contemplating exactly this kind of thing.

I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on what else specifically bothers you about them; you touched on a few points earlier, but I'd love to hear more about those little things that rub you the wrong way. Also, looking at the bigger picture, does your father have a general tendency toward aggressive or volatile behavior?

Zachary James5 said:Back when I was a sophomore living in the dorms at State University, I definitely got taken advantage of. Especially by my roommates back then. I know how that goes, so I'll follow your advice and stay mindful of that in the future.

I am truly sorry to hear that.

If you wouldn't mind, could you perhaps elaborate on how exactly that would work? I’m curious whether you were thinking in terms of direct material support, or if you had something else in mind—perhaps through providing specific services or professional expertise instead?

@ brightridge59
It’s not like he gets physical, but the psychological stuff? He absolutely lives for it. For instance, if his mother doesn't bring him something right away—like a glass of water—he’ll sulk for the entire day and just refuse to speak to her. He’s also a master at shifting blame. You know how it goes: you listen to him, you follow his lead, and then he turns around and uses that against you. There’s only one way to do things in his world: his way.

He’d actually hit me on the head sometimes, like a "warning." His whole tactic was to intentionally provoke me, mock me, or insult me, and the second I snapped back, he’d shut down and give me the silent treatment. When I asked him why he does it, he’d claim he was just trying to "toughen me up" so I wouldn't have issues with people out there (as if I need that, right?). But if I gave him a taste of his own medicine, he’d lose it.
In his mind, this is how he helps. This is his version of "best practice": psychologically attacking me so I’ll become mentally resilient enough to handle other abusers later.
Personally? It makes zero sense. I could use someone who acts as a support system, not someone constantly holding my growth back.
The other day, he walked into my room while I was working through some math problems. He lost it. Told me I shouldn't be doing that and that I should be resting instead (probably by lying around all day like he does). Honestly, it was insulting.

Back in the dorms, I was always the guy helping everyone out. I’d run out to grab cigarettes for my roommates, tutor them in math, pick up movies or books for them, even lend them money (which, by the way, they never paid back).

You've actually hit your 75-message cap, so I can't send you a PM right now. If you really want to hear back from me, you might need to go ahead and clear out some of those old posts 😉.

Done.

Zachary James5 said:@ brightridge59
It’s not like he gets physical, but the psychological stuff? He absolutely lives for it. For instance, if his mother doesn't bring him something right away—like a glass of water—he’ll sulk for the entire day and just refuse to speak to her. He’s also a master at shifting blame. You know how it goes: you listen to him, you follow his lead, and then he turns around and uses that against you. There’s only one way to do things in his world: his way.

He’d actually hit me on the head sometimes, like a "warning." His whole tactic was to intentionally provoke me, mock me, or insult me, and the second I snapped back, he’d shut down and give me the silent treatment. When I asked him why he does it, he’d claim he was just trying to "toughen me up" so I wouldn't have issues with people out there (as if I need that, right?). But if I gave him a taste of his own medicine, he’d lose it.
In his mind, this is how he helps. This is his version of "best practice": psychologically attacking me so I’ll become mentally resilient enough to handle other abusers later.
Personally? It makes zero sense. I could use someone who acts as a support system, not someone constantly holding my growth back.
The other day, he walked into my room while I was working through some math problems. He lost it. Told me I shouldn't be doing that and that I should be resting instead (probably by lying around all day like he does). Honestly, it was insulting.

Back in the dorms, I was always the guy helping everyone out. I’d run out to grab cigarettes for my roommates, tutor them in math, pick up movies or books for them, even lend them money (which, by the way, they never paid back).

So, we're talking about a psychological manipulator.
How do his comments directed at you and your mother affect you personally?

He’d occasionally give me a little tap on the head as a sort of "warning." The whole thing was designed to intentionally provoke me; he would mock me or insult me, and the moment I stood up for myself, he would fly into a rage and give me the silent treatment. When I eventually asked why he acted that way, he'd claim he was just trying to "toughen me up" and help me handle people better (as if I were somehow lacking in that department), yet if I responded in kind, he would absolutely lose it.
His idea of helping—and what he truly believes is for my own good—is to psychologically attack me so that I'll be mentally fortified against other bullies in the future.

People often describe individuals like this as being old-school, but honestly, they are just straight-up bullies. His approach to guidance is incredibly outdated and rigid, not to mention his tendency toward passive-aggression. 👎

How do you usually deal with people of that nature? (I suspect it isn't always easy for you)

To me, it makes no sense at all; it would be far more helpful if he were a source of support rather than someone constantly holding back my personal growth.
The other day, he walked into my room while I was working through some math problems, and he completely lost it, telling me I shouldn't be doing that and should be resting instead (as if he spends his days just lounging around). It felt quite insulting.

In and of itself, that specific comment might not seem like an insult, but when it becomes a constant pattern, I can certainly see why you'd feel sensitive to every similar remark that follows.

What is your relationship with your mother like?

I used to do favors for my roommates. I'd run out to grab cigarettes for them, tutor them in math, pick up things like movies or books, lend them money (which, predictably, they never paid back), and so on.

Was that something from your past, or is that still how you operate today?

@ brightridge59

So, yesterday he’s screaming at my mom because her laundry was sitting in the tub when he wanted to shower. She asked him why he was yelling, and then he just starts hurling everything from the tub right at her face. I was standing just a foot away, staring him down, wondering why the hell he was even looking at me. Honestly? I was ready to throw hands.

He knows exactly where I stand. I told him straight up once: I don't trust you, and I think you actually want to see me fail.

As for the roommate situation—yeah, it was always like this. Things only started looking up after I finished high school. But before that mess with the roommates? It was constant.
Things with my mom are fine, though we aren't super close. She protects him, but she doesn't pretend he's a saint. She calls him out sometimes, which just makes him blow up and sulk (and honestly, she’s right to do it). She knows he's a psychological bully, but she tells me I have to put up with him if I want to make it through college.

Now that we've laid all this information out on the table, I find myself wondering what your actual endgame is. What is it that you're truly looking for here? Are you hoping to mend these relationships and get things back on track, or is your primary goal to steer clear of them as much as possible?

brightridge59 said:Now that we've laid all this information out on the table, I find myself wondering what your actual endgame is. What is it that you're truly looking for here? Are you hoping to mend these relationships and get things back on track, or is your primary goal to steer clear of them as much as possible?

I don't think fixing these relationships is an option anymore. There's just too much damage, and frankly, they're too wrapped up in themselves to ever change.
Avoiding them isn't really feasible, but acting like none of this matters? That's easier said than done.
My plan was to just let things play out and see how long I can hold out. Still... does focusing solely on my own life and my own future make me selfish?

Zachary James5 said:@ brightridge59

So, yesterday he’s screaming at my mom because her laundry was sitting in the tub when he wanted to shower. She asked him why he was yelling, and then he just starts hurling everything from the tub right at her face. I was standing just a foot away, staring him down, wondering why the hell he was even looking at me. Honestly? I was ready to throw hands.

He knows exactly where I stand. I told him straight up once: I don't trust you, and I think you actually want to see me fail.

As for the roommate situation—yeah, it was always like this. Things only started looking up after I finished high school. But before that mess with the roommates? It was constant.
Things with my mom are fine, though we aren't super close. She protects him, but she doesn't pretend he's a saint. She calls him out sometimes, which just makes him blow up and sulk (and honestly, she’s right to do it). She knows he's a psychological bully, but she tells me I have to put up with him if I want to make it through college.

Look, you aren't getting any support at home, and people can sense that—that’s why your roommates are taking advantage of you. You're likely doing all this just to fit in, or maybe out of fear that if you don't, you'll end up having no one.

You need to sort through two things. I dealt with a worse situation at home, so I recognize the pattern. You're still in that first phase where you're naively trying to make everything seem normal, and they're treating you like a pushover, saying stuff like, "Come on, kid, we fed and clothed you, and now you're talking back?" After that comes the resistance phase. I can see you're close to it—where you just snap and want to fight just to stand up for yourself (even if you're doing it the wrong way because you haven't learned any other way). Eventually, you realize that not even God can change them, not you. Once you accept that, you can move on. So, you need to reach that stage: focus on yourself, get through your degree, and leave them behind. You aren't their parent; they're adults, and they should handle their own issues. You won't expect your kids one day to fix your job or marriage problems, right? Just focus on your studies, find friends, a girlfriend, a social circle, and plan your career and your move. Be grateful to your parents for making college possible, but that doesn't mean they were right or behaving correctly. You'll eventually realize they probably didn't know any better.

The second thing is, toughen up a bit. Show some teeth to those losers at the dorm who are using you. The issue is that you don't know how to stand your ground yet, because you never had to do it with your own family, and you're only just starting to test these boundaries now. Don't worry, it'll come naturally. And honestly, most of the people in the dorm are just losers anyway. Once you get further along in college, you'll see that people mature enough that they stop bothering others and just mind their own business. Start doing that now.

And regarding what your dad said about you needing to "toughen up"—maybe he's not entirely wrong. Once you learn how to stand up to him, you'll be able to handle anyone, including the guys at the dorm. Consider it practice. In a few years, you'll realize your parents are the least of your worries; you'll be on your own path soon enough.

@Nathan Kelly5

It’s been ages since that blowout with my roommates. Two years ago, maybe? Back then, I didn't know how to stand my ground. I think I finally do now.
As for my dad—don't worry, we used to clash all the time. We had our fair share of stupid arguments and heavy blowouts, but nothing ever escalated into a massive disaster.
Then one day, it just clicked: I can't change them.
A while back, I had everything organized for my PC setup in two small bins (cables, USB, stuff like that). A few days later, my dad comes looking for an SD card. I told him it was right there in the bins. He got frustrated, started muttering under his breath... but eventually, he found the card and used it for a bit.
But did he put it back in the bin? No. He just tossed it in a drawer.
He didn't follow the system I set up to keep things tidy.
That was my lightbulb moment. He's actually the messy one. All that talk about everyone else being disorganized? It's just projection. He's just projecting his own flaws onto us.

I realize now I have to move on with my life. Maybe what I'm feeling is just the residue of a childhood spent chasing this dream of a perfect, happy family that never existed. And honestly? I don't regret how things turned out. Even if it was foolish, scary, or depressing. There's no point in staying angry.

Got any more advice?
What's your experience been like? I'd love to hear.

Zachary James5 said:@Nathan Kelly5

It’s been ages since that blowout with my roommates. Two years ago, maybe? Back then, I didn't know how to stand my ground. I think I finally do now.
As for my dad—don't worry, we used to clash all the time. We had our fair share of stupid arguments and heavy blowouts, but nothing ever escalated into a massive disaster.
Then one day, it just clicked: I can't change them.
A while back, I had everything organized for my PC setup in two small bins (cables, USB, stuff like that). A few days later, my dad comes looking for an SD card. I told him it was right there in the bins. He got frustrated, started muttering under his breath... but eventually, he found the card and used it for a bit.
But did he put it back in the bin? No. He just tossed it in a drawer.
He didn't follow the system I set up to keep things tidy.
That was my lightbulb moment. He's actually the messy one. All that talk about everyone else being disorganized? It's just projection. He's just projecting his own flaws onto us.

I realize now I have to move on with my life. Maybe what I'm feeling is just the residue of a childhood spent chasing this dream of a perfect, happy family that never existed. And honestly? I don't regret how things turned out. Even if it was foolish, scary, or depressing. There's no point in staying angry.

Got any more advice?
What's your experience been like? I'd love to hear.

My experience? I left as soon as I possibly could, acting as if I never had parents at all, without ever looking back. I tried unsuccessfully to change things constantly, but it just wouldn't work. My situation was actually worse than yours; my old man was a chronic alcoholic, which brought everything else along with it—psychological abuse, constant "remodeling" of the house, police visits, disastrous relationships, and so on. I don't think he pressured me; I was actually his hero, but still, what I went through during my childhood is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Nowadays... let's just say I eventually found a way to be thankful for it all. Looking back from a different perspective now that everything is settled, I see he was just a sick, addicted man you couldn't help, and my mother didn't know how to do anything other than let herself be treated like a doormat. They aren't bad people, really; they weren't even that terrible as parents. They did the best they could—if they hadn't, my sister probably wouldn't have her Master's today, and I wouldn't have graduated on time. Our relationship is mostly formal now (my dad hasn't touched a drink in 8 or 9 years and is as normal as can be, and even their relationship is stable); we see each other maybe once a month or two, usually sticking to trivial topics so we don't accidentally stumble onto the past and ruin the mood. But there's no point in mourning it now; it was what it was.

So, I can only tell you the same thing: focus on yourself. You won't change them; they can only change themselves. Be grateful they provided you with the chance to finish college, get that degree, become independent, and move on. In the end, both they and you will likely regret that things weren't better, but... try not to view it as a tragedy. Life is a struggle regardless, in every arena. Just keep moving forward; your life is just beginning.

@Nathan Kelly5
It would be foolish of me to say I feel sorry for you. I hope you understand why.

I’m dealing with the exact same struggle when it comes to the clutter.

I’m still living under their roof, though I go away to study in a different city, so I’m really only home for extended stretches during the summer. Ever since I moved out for school, and my parents have started getting older, it feels like absolutely no one cleans anything anymore. They might vacuum once in a blue moon or wash a few dishes—you know, the bare minimum tasks that can't be ignored—but that’s about the extent of it. When I come back for the summer, I end up taking on all the heavy lifting, spending entire days scrubbing and organizing because the house is basically one step away from becoming a breeding ground for pests. Some of the cabinets haven't been touched in years. This summer, my entire existence has been a repetitive loop of clean-cook-wash-rest-repeat; I’ve barely even stepped out for coffee, let alone hit the beach, watched TV, or sat at my computer. My goal is simply to make this place livable and not an absolute embarrassment if I ever wanted to invite guests over, so there’s no "vacation" for me until it's done. I’m not some perfectionist who needs everything to be medically sterile, but the way they live is just unhealthy. There were times when my brother would have old food sitting right next to his bed for weeks without even noticing, much less considering it a problem.

And here is the kicker: "on paper," they claim to support my cleaning efforts and say they’re happy about it (except for my brother, who constantly snaps at me, "Why are you always cleaning?"—typical teenager whose entire universe revolves around Facebook 🙄). In reality, though, the complaining never stops. It’s always, "Where did this specific thing go? You must have lost it while cleaning," or "You threw away stuff that was perfectly fine!" or "Ugh, why did you move things? This new layout is terrible, don't do that." So, I fire back that I cleared out a mountain of junk and it's perfectly normal that a stray item might have gotten swept up in the process, adding that if they're so bothered by it, they could actually pitch in—my brother especially. All I get is an eye roll. We just spin in these endless circles every single day. The only one who is reasonable about this is my dad; he’s actually on my side.

To make matters worse, because they are so disorganized and unaccustomed to any kind of systematic upkeep, the second I finish tidying up, everything reverts to its previous state within half a day. It’s a Sisyphus task. Even when things aren't physically dirty, the lack of organization is maddening because they tend to scatter the same types of items in a thousand different places—books, cleaning supplies, pretty much everything. If I try to implement a logical system, they lose their minds because it doesn't fit their chaotic flow. The house is filled with beautiful furniture they spent good money on, yet it’s all being neglected and ruined because of this lifestyle.

So, what am I supposed to do? Initially, I thought, "Just two or three more years and I’ll be completely independent; I can endure this for now, and once I'm gone, I'll just let them drown in their own mess." But honestly, I can't bring myself to leave them like that; I feel a sense of responsibility to help, and frankly, it's miserable living in a house like this all summer. Besides, if I just let them live this way, they’ll probably end up guilt-tripping me one day, claiming I never help out or that I'm lazy and ungrateful while they "struggle" with the housework. I've heard that rhetoric before.
I'm at a complete loss...

@Maxime

It sounds like we’re dealing with pretty much the same thing. My older sister is a total Facebook addict, too.
Take a look at the advice posted above; maybe some of it will click for you.