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The Absolute Truth

Started by wearyowl29 · · 👁 9 views · 62 replies

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Participants wearyowl29Gregory Nelsongranitebadger30Charles Flores23ASean CastilloBetty Stewart59Dennis Rogers6dustyskipper3Mark Torres14rustymaker5Bradley Myers63gentleharbor52wanderinggull35steelridge58swiftbadger27Sandra Wilson68Nancy Chase2neonscout5Sarah Jones3Jacob Johnson56William King12
Bradley Myers63 Bradley Myers63 Member
41 messages
joined Feb 2010
#41 ·
The dots are here to provide light—not through that abstract concept of love you think you understand, but through a truth that doesn't deal in abstractions. You don't know the kind of love that actually exists. Just tell yourself you know nothing, exist in that zero point of eternal balance, synchronicity, and harmony. That’s how you move forward without even knowing—whatever He says to you, speaking through me, will simply be, because it already is within the Unity of one God... or you can learn humility, look toward the heavens, and say Amen and Amen. Amen, I know I know nothing; I don't know that I know everything, and Amen, I want to work on that... either learn, or start trembling. Truth is singular; anyone who knows Her through the zero point and fully realizes the ego aspects of Satan isn't really Satan anymore, even if they still are... they realize they know nothing, and you don't realize that you know... and through that, they can give light and receive. It's up to you to pour in and drink from that knowledge, though you might misinterpret it through your dreams and end up discovering the wrong parts of yourself... or you'll fear the fear spoken by a body that doesn't truly exist, trembling because fear is just the body talking, trying to shake you... Truth is One... the Unity of all people, of God who is love, and of our consciousness—which, for some, is currently just an unconscious plan... accept it or don't, it's your free will. In every sense, through the eternal zero, His Truth is One, the Unity with Everything... either learn to say Amen or Amen and accept His harmony, or tremble—either way, Truth speaks while you recognize it, until you face that awe-inspiring sorrow in the expanse... the equality of all with Everything... greetings from the light... Amen and Amen... learn to say it consciously or don't... you're saying it all the time anyway, just too weakly for Him to find you through the weak love someone needs to pour in... many have begun... just believe... not in me, but in one God... the Almighty Father, Creator of heaven and earth, of everything visible and invisible... as long as you split one truth of heaven and earth, visible and invisible, you won't see through the spiritual eye... MAN, learn to walk humbly while looking at the stars; it isn't hard, it's actually incredibly simple... AMEN AMEN... SO IT IS, AND SO IT SHALL BE!!!!!!!!!!!
Betty Stewart59 Betty Stewart59 Member
22 messages
joined Mar 2010
#42 ·
Anonymous said:Oh, come on. Nobody can actually define Truth. Like I said, all I can really do is describe what it *isn't*, right?

What do you mean it doesn't need to be sought after? I don't mean you should be running around frantically looking for it. It’s more about realizing that truth exists, and sometimes you just need a nudge to remember you have to go find it.

I'm a guy 🙂

Too bad, I prefer women. 🤣

I had to get one more thing off my chest—the devil wouldn't leave me alone, and now neither will you.
As for this "philosophizing," the Truth usually finds you. It follows you like a shadow.
Try catching a shadow. See how that works out.
Let's stop playing word games about what the Truth is or isn't; sometimes, negation is the only way to find your footing.
Waiting can be seen as its own kind of search. The trouble starts when someone goes on a feverish hunt for the Truth, especially when you pointed out so perfectly that the Truth should be lived, not chased.
But I did say you can try describing it to spark some resonance in someone else. You can! It's not a matter of whether you'll succeed, but whether you'll try.
Betty Stewart59 Betty Stewart59 Member
22 messages
joined Mar 2010
#43 ·
dustyskipper3 said:Well, I suppose that stems from the Goldman Sachs incompleteness theorems. Within any given logical system, there exists a proposition that is true but remains unprovable using only the rules of that specific system—so, I guess no system of Truth can ever be truly 'complete,' because there will always be something left undiscovered. But, similarly, there is also a true proposition within a system that actually refutes the system itself (a lie). This means any system of Truth has to tolerate the 'liar's paradox.' Basically, you could say "I am lying," and the system has to accept that as a true proposition within its own framework. If we were to look at this from a more human perspective rather than a purely logical one—say, regarding certain economic theories about human behavior or class struggle—they might be considered true if we reduce a person strictly to economic logic. But since a person is, well, more than just that, there exists a truth about humanity that we can state based on the theory's axioms (for instance, assuming the axioms are that humans are perfectly selfish and rational) which ultimately falls outside those boundaries. For example, saying "humans are somewhat irrational." Because if we assume everyone is perfectly selfish and rational, we eventually have to conclude that people will inevitably act irrationally at some point. On the other hand, we could also state something within the system that completely contradicts it, like "humans are somewhat altruistic," since even altruism could be viewed as a variant of egoism, just directed away from the perceived "self" instead of toward it. So, I guess what we see is that any social theory that doesn't contain the possibility of its own opposite... well, it just doesn't hold water; it isn't Truth. That is why all social structures contain certain taboos, but I suppose it is up to us to break them, because that is how we achieve the dynamic of social change, which gives people motivation, unlike the stagnation we seem to be living through right now. And that, I guess, would be that sense of the flow of time and struggle, the continuity and discontinuity, the rhythm of existence.

You just love keeping women guessing, don't you? 🙂There are such things as "incomplete truths" that aren't actually lies. It’s a nuance people miss. Like how you aren't necessarily a good person just because you aren't a bad one. Or consider the rules governing social boundaries. You haven't quite broken free yet. Not by a long shot.

dustyskipper3 said:Well, I suppose that stems from the Goldman Sachs incompleteness theorems. Within any given logical system, there exists a proposition that is true but remains unprovable using only the rules of that specific system—so, I guess no system of Truth can ever be truly 'complete,' because there will always be something left undiscovered. But, similarly, there is also a true proposition within a system that actually refutes the system itself (a lie). This means any system of Truth has to tolerate the 'liar's paradox.' Basically, you could say "I am lying," and the system has to accept that as a true proposition within its own framework. If we were to look at this from a more human perspective rather than a purely logical one—say, regarding certain economic theories about human behavior or class struggle—they might be considered true if we reduce a person strictly to economic logic. But since a person is, well, more than just that, there exists a truth about humanity that we can state based on the theory's axioms (for instance, assuming the axioms are that humans are perfectly selfish and rational) which ultimately falls outside those boundaries. For example, saying "humans are somewhat irrational." Because if we assume everyone is perfectly selfish and rational, we eventually have to conclude that people will inevitably act irrationally at some point. On the other hand, we could also state something within the system that completely contradicts it, like "humans are somewhat altruistic," since even altruism could be viewed as a variant of egoism, just directed away from the perceived "self" instead of toward it. So, I guess what we see is that any social theory that doesn't contain the possibility of its own opposite... well, it just doesn't hold water; it isn't Truth. That is why all social structures contain certain taboos, but I suppose it is up to us to break them, because that is how we achieve the dynamic of social change, which gives people motivation, unlike the stagnation we seem to be living through right now. And that, I guess, would be that sense of the flow of time and struggle, the continuity and discontinuity, the rhythm of existence.

What’s your take? arna Now.It isn’t all inside us. Not everything resides within.
Betty Stewart59 Betty Stewart59 Member
22 messages
joined Mar 2010
#44 ·
Charles Flores23 said:You can criticize someone for trying to pass off their personal truth as a collective one. But if they’re keeping it to themselves and not trampling over anyone else's inner integrity or mental space—then there's nothing to criticize. At that point, it's my business, not everyone else's.

Basically, Absolute Truth only really exists on an individual level. Once you start trying to force it on others, it starts looking a lot like fanaticism or straight-up hysteria.

That's why zen - zen is inexpressible, just like the Tao.

A quick tangent here—absolute Truth? No. Just Truth. How can you even convey Truth if you aren't hearing it from within first? Without that internal resonance, you have nothing.
Religious rituals are nothing more than cheap substitutes; hollow fabrications.

Well put. Yours?

That is why Zen - Zen, much like the Tao, remains inexpressible.

Incomplete Truth.
Love is all around us, not some entity hovering above us. 🙄
Charles Flores23 Charles Flores23 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Apr 2010
#45 ·
Betty Stewart59 said:A quick tangent here—absolute Truth? No. Just Truth. How can you even convey Truth if you aren't hearing it from within first? Without that internal resonance, you have nothing.
Religious rituals are nothing more than cheap substitutes; hollow fabrications.

Well put. Yours?

That is why Zen - Zen, much like the Tao, remains inexpressible.

Incomplete Truth.
Love is all around us, not some entity hovering above us. 🙄

Self-truth, self-actualization, self-initiation, self...

Sure, you can point out the path or hand over the keys, but you can't actually transfer a revelation or deep insight the way an old-school ritual or formal teaching does. Absolute Truth is terrifying because behind every bit of gnosis or understanding lies that massive, ungraspable abyss—the chaos of individual consciousness, the Pleroma. Rituals and initiations are really just knocking on the very first door; the road to the final Truth is a long one.

Betty Stewart59 said:A quick tangent here—absolute Truth? No. Just Truth. How can you even convey Truth if you aren't hearing it from within first? Without that internal resonance, you have nothing.
Religious rituals are nothing more than cheap substitutes; hollow fabrications.

Well put. Yours?

That is why Zen - Zen, much like the Tao, remains inexpressible.

Incomplete Truth.
Love is all around us, not some entity hovering above us. 🙄

Thanks. Well, mine—if we discount the influence of, uh... everything and anything.🙂
We're all just thieves in the end, right?

Betty Stewart59 said:A quick tangent here—absolute Truth? No. Just Truth. How can you even convey Truth if you aren't hearing it from within first? Without that internal resonance, you have nothing.
Religious rituals are nothing more than cheap substitutes; hollow fabrications.

Well put. Yours?

That is why Zen - Zen, much like the Tao, remains inexpressible.

Incomplete Truth.
Love is all around us, not some entity hovering above us. 🙄

I agree. People often mistake emotional fragments—or even just a brain flooded with chemicals—for love, creating this sweet but totally fake mental construct of earthly romance.

A sublime, altruistic love for the space we inhabit requires sacrifice. The gods aren't bloodthirsty; they just enforce the laws and direct the force. It’s easy enough to play the part down here in the USA, but holding the line is always hard work. The final Truth comes with a price tag.
gentleharbor52 gentleharbor52 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2010
#46 ·
wearyowl29 said:Truth seekers pour out their very souls, their lives, and everything they have just to catch a glimpse of it.
They scramble up mountains and tumble through valleys, doing whatever it takes to grasp it—weathering the dark nights and celebrating the bright mornings along the way.
Some will eventually find it, though never the whole thing, just a fragment. But honestly? Even a tiny sliver can be worth a fortune. Still...

Don't you get the feeling that Truth, with a capital T, isn't looking to be hunted down by everyone? It’s not like it wants to reveal its entire self to the masses, but rather chooses to show us one little piece at a time.

All those seekers, thinkers, and independent souls who push themselves to the limit to find even a shred of what we call the Great Truth—aren't they actually chosen by the Truth itself as it slowly reveals its face to them? 😲😉

The cosmos is pure dynamism, whereas this supposed truth would imply a fixed, decisive definition—essentially, stasis.
Ontological Truth, in any philosophical or theological sense, simply doesn't exist.
The most accurate depiction of truth is found in "The Little Prince," where every individual possesses their own tiny planet—their own personal truth.
The more an individual (or a group) retreats into their own private truth, the further they drift from reality.

There is no one more oblivious than those who believe they have finally grasped the Truth.
wanderinggull35 wanderinggull35 Member
18 messages
joined Apr 2010
#47 ·
Look, I owe you philosophers an apology...

I'll quote Eckhart here (not that I think he's any better than me or you, but he puts this pretty well):

The word reality just boils down to whatever the human mind can wrap itself around, which isn't all that much. Language is built from five basic vowel sounds—a, e, i, o, u. Then you have consonants made by air pressure—s, f, g, and so on. Do you really believe that combining those basic little noises could ever explain who you are, the ultimate purpose of the universe, or even the true essence of a tree or a stone?

It's the same deal with the Truth. What even is the Truth anyway? Not when we don't know who we are or where we're heading. We can make guesses, I guess. 🙂

It's all a waste of breath for the musicians... and for me, too...

So, maybe we should just take all that energy and focus on helping people who aren't happy...

I get the feeling that the people asking these kinds of questions don't actually know who they are...

Most philosophers don't know who they are either... that's why they're always obsessed with questions about the Truth or the Truth of Power. They're really just asking: Who am I? Who am I? Where is the Truth? What's my purpose?

Don't take this as an insult... it's just my opinion. I respect yours... so just respect mine... and we'll get along fine...

If I offended anyone, my bad...

I just want to point out that we aren't going to get anything out of philosophy... but if we help someone else, we'll end up with a better community. Helping can be material or it can be internal... like giving someone peace or understanding...

Don't get me wrong... seriously... everything I'm saying is coming from a good place.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#48 ·
wanderinggull35 said:Look, I owe you philosophers an apology...

I'll quote Eckhart here (not that I think he's any better than me or you, but he puts this pretty well):

The word reality just boils down to whatever the human mind can wrap itself around, which isn't all that much. Language is built from five basic vowel sounds—a, e, i, o, u. Then you have consonants made by air pressure—s, f, g, and so on. Do you really believe that combining those basic little noises could ever explain who you are, the ultimate purpose of the universe, or even the true essence of a tree or a stone?

It's the same deal with the Truth. What even is the Truth anyway? Not when we don't know who we are or where we're heading. We can make guesses, I guess. 🙂

It's all a waste of breath for the musicians... and for me, too...

So, maybe we should just take all that energy and focus on helping people who aren't happy...

I get the feeling that the people asking these kinds of questions don't actually know who they are...

Most philosophers don't know who they are either... that's why they're always obsessed with questions about the Truth or the Truth of Power. They're really just asking: Who am I? Who am I? Where is the Truth? What's my purpose?

Don't take this as an insult... it's just my opinion. I respect yours... so just respect mine... and we'll get along fine...

If I offended anyone, my bad...

I just want to point out that we aren't going to get anything out of philosophy... but if we help someone else, we'll end up with a better community. Helping can be material or it can be internal... like giving someone peace or understanding...

Don't get me wrong... seriously... everything I'm saying is coming from a good place.

Don't make me laugh, the stone replies, because I am made of stone and I have to maintain my dignity. I don't exactly have the muscles for laughing.
You might be able to recognize me, but you'll never truly know me. You're missing the sense of participation.
No other sense can take the place of that sense of participation. (I'm paraphrasing the thoughts of a poet, Wislava, and I hope she’d agree with how I'm using this here).

And if you don't believe me, the stone says, just ask a leaf, and it will tell you the exact same thing.
Ask a raindrop, and it will say the same thing as the leaf. Ask even your own hair!

Laughter tears at me—this massive, overwhelming laughter that I simply don't know how to join.

I knock on the stone's door: It's me; let me in!
I have no door, says the stone.

So, I think Eckhart was actually right when he suggested that reality is reduced to something the human mind can grasp, which isn't much, rather than saying reality reduces to something the human mind can grasp, and so on... because, even if it was just a slip of the pen, the way you wrote it actually shifts the whole meaning of what's being communicated.

As for that poetic paraphrase of "Conversation with a Stone" above, it seems to be using words to describe a reality that the human mind is capable of grasping, which, in its own way, is actually quite a lot.
wearyowl29 wearyowl29 RegularOP
715 messages
joined Feb 2014
#49 ·
gentleharbor52 said:The cosmos is pure dynamism, whereas this supposed truth would imply a fixed, decisive definition—essentially, stasis.
Ontological Truth, in any philosophical or theological sense, simply doesn't exist.
The most accurate depiction of truth is found in "The Little Prince," where every individual possesses their own tiny planet—their own personal truth.
The more an individual (or a group) retreats into their own private truth, the further they drift from reality.

There is no one more oblivious than those who believe they have finally grasped the Truth.

But wait! Could the Truth itself actually contain its own internal dynamics? If so, then *that* would be the Truth.🙏

And can an ordinary person possess their own Great Truth?

The more an individual (or a group) stays stuck in their own subjective truth, the more detached they become from what's actually happening.

Spot on! And yet, here we are, everyone searching for it—even during the Potjeh....
swiftbadger27 swiftbadger27 Newcomer
1 message
joined Apr 2010
#50 ·
“ People occasionally stumble over the Truth,
but most just brush themselves off and rush forward—acting as if nothing ever happened. “
Churchill
Sandra Wilson68 Sandra Wilson68 Active Member
75 messages
joined Mar 2004
#51 ·
The Truth with a capital "T" boils down to answering three core existential questions:

1. WHAT EXISTS?

2. HOW DOES THAT STUFF EXIST?

3. WHY DOES ANY OF IT EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE?

We actually already know the answers to these three questions. That means we already hold the Truth with a capital "T." Our only problem is that we haven't been smart enough to actually ask them yet. And obviously, since we haven't asked, we haven't even bothered trying to find the answers.

Give it a shot and see for yourself.
Gregory Nelson Gregory Nelson Newcomer
9 messages
joined May 2008
#52 ·
Sandra Wilson68 said:The Truth with a capital "T" boils down to answering three core existential questions:

1. WHAT EXISTS?

2. HOW DOES THAT STUFF EXIST?

3. WHY DOES ANY OF IT EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE?

We actually already know the answers to these three questions. That means we already hold the Truth with a capital "T." Our only problem is that we haven't been smart enough to actually ask them yet. And obviously, since we haven't asked, we haven't even bothered trying to find the answers.

Give it a shot and see for yourself.

Everything, though I should point out that there is a specific subset of "everything" that exists simply because we are conscious of it. That particular "everything" possesses a double existence.

2. HOW DOES THAT WHICH EXISTS, EXIST?

Every possible "how," though I must admit that for certain things, I am quite lost as to how they function at all...

3. WHY DOES THAT WHICH EXISTS, EXIST?

For every "why"—for all reasons—it seems to boil down to mutual interpolation. Most philosophers, for instance, seem to exist merely to provide tedious answers to such tiresome questions.

And I suppose that is where the ultimate Truth resides.
Sandra Wilson68 Sandra Wilson68 Active Member
75 messages
joined Mar 2004
#53 ·
Gregory Nelson

Whatever. Just keep in mind that there's a specific kind of "whatever" we’re talking about—the stuff we actually know exists. That kind of whatever? It exists twice over.

The single biggest blunder in philosophy—honestly, maybe even in how we process reality itself—is this delusional assumption that "everything" actually exists.

There’s no such thing as "everything"!

There is only ONE existence. Everything else—all this "stuff" we see around us—is just that ONE thing transforming itself through a long, grueling process we call "evolution." Why do we still act like there's more than one thing? All this "stuff" is just how that ONE thing manifests itself physically. These things pop in and out of existence all the time. They are nothing more than the physical, synchronized movements and actions of that ONE entity. Because they are just actions, they can start and stop whenever they feel like it. And because they are just movements, they don't actually possess "existence" on their own. Only that ONE thing has the capacity to move and perform those actions. Think about it: a runner sprinting down a track in New York City isn't the same thing as the act of running. The run is just an action; the runner is the reality. This rule applies to the entire universe and everything you can touch or see—from subatomic particles and atoms to planets, cells, plants, animals, or humans. They are all just different, rhythmic movements of that ONE thing. They cycle through beginnings and endings, but they don't hold the weight of existence. Only that ONE thing, acting from the core of everything, actually exists. That ONE thing never changes; it’s eternal. Only its movements change. It's simple: the ONE is the cause, and everything else is just the effect.

Even Hegel gets this right when he dives into his logic of existence. Here’s the gist: if something exists as a FIRST state and then evolves into something ELSE, that "else" isn't actually a new thing. It still exists—it’s just the FIRST thing shifting its shape or moving into a different phase.

Physics is basically trying to tackle the exact same headache, though they haven't cracked it yet. The only real difference is the angle. They aren't asking "What exists?" instead, they're obsessing over "What is the universe actually made of?" The current takeaway is that matter isn't even a thing—it’s just energy. Everything is built from energy, which, if you strip it down, is nothing more than movement and work. But here’s the kicker: physics still hasn't answered what that fundamental "thing" is—the entity that actually *exists* and possesses the capacity to move and work, thereby building the entire universe and everything in it. All we know is that this thing—this core existence—has the power to move and act. When it’s at rest, it has no physical properties, no shape, and to any observer, it looks like empty space or a field. It looks like nothing. It’s only when it starts moving and doing its thing that it takes on objective, physical, perceptible qualities. But there's a massive catch. That physical, energetic stuff we can actually see and feel? That isn't the actual entity that started moving. That's just the byproduct of its action. We're seeing the work, not the worker. The "He" at the heart of that action remains invisible and unknown to everyone else. He stays known only to Himself and to the action He is performing.

How does philosophy even run into this mess? It happens when people try to hunt down the Truth—the big "T" Truth—aka "the thing-in-itself." Basically, you realize that if we could actually grasp the Truth, we’d finally understand what everything in the universe actually *is* on its own. Not just how things look to us observers, but what they truly are in their own skin. Because let's face it: what we see is always just a projection. To an outsider, things are always something different than what they are deep down. I think Schopenhauer spent the most time banging his head against this "thing-in-itself" problem. And honestly? He failed. He just slapped the label "transcendental" on the whole area of knowledge and called it a day, without ever giving a straight answer as to what "transcendental" even means.

In this light, if we actually want to uncover the "Truth with a capital T," our first move should be asking WHAT EXISTS? We need to tackle "things as they are" head-on. Without answering that, we’re just spinning our wheels—we won't ever truly grasp what actually exists or what the "Truth with a capital T" really looks like.

Look, I’m convinced we already have all the individual pieces of this massive puzzle called the "Truth with a capital T." What we're missing is the big picture itself. You don't see the whole mosaic until every single piece is snapped into its rightful place. Honestly, I don't think it's that hard. If there are people here actually interested in chasing the "Truth with a capital T," we can finish this if we follow the path I'm laying out right now.
Gregory Nelson Gregory Nelson Newcomer
9 messages
joined May 2008
#54 ·
Sandra Wilson68 said:Gregory Nelson

Whatever. Just keep in mind that there's a specific kind of "whatever" we’re talking about—the stuff we actually know exists. That kind of whatever? It exists twice over.

The single biggest blunder in philosophy—honestly, maybe even in how we process reality itself—is this delusional assumption that "everything" actually exists.

There’s no such thing as "everything"!

There is only ONE existence. Everything else—all this "stuff" we see around us—is just that ONE thing transforming itself through a long, grueling process we call "evolution." Why do we still act like there's more than one thing? All this "stuff" is just how that ONE thing manifests itself physically. These things pop in and out of existence all the time. They are nothing more than the physical, synchronized movements and actions of that ONE entity. Because they are just actions, they can start and stop whenever they feel like it. And because they are just movements, they don't actually possess "existence" on their own. Only that ONE thing has the capacity to move and perform those actions. Think about it: a runner sprinting down a track in New York City isn't the same thing as the act of running. The run is just an action; the runner is the reality. This rule applies to the entire universe and everything you can touch or see—from subatomic particles and atoms to planets, cells, plants, animals, or humans. They are all just different, rhythmic movements of that ONE thing. They cycle through beginnings and endings, but they don't hold the weight of existence. Only that ONE thing, acting from the core of everything, actually exists. That ONE thing never changes; it’s eternal. Only its movements change. It's simple: the ONE is the cause, and everything else is just the effect.

Even Hegel gets this right when he dives into his logic of existence. Here’s the gist: if something exists as a FIRST state and then evolves into something ELSE, that "else" isn't actually a new thing. It still exists—it’s just the FIRST thing shifting its shape or moving into a different phase.

Physics is basically trying to tackle the exact same headache, though they haven't cracked it yet. The only real difference is the angle. They aren't asking "What exists?" instead, they're obsessing over "What is the universe actually made of?" The current takeaway is that matter isn't even a thing—it’s just energy. Everything is built from energy, which, if you strip it down, is nothing more than movement and work. But here’s the kicker: physics still hasn't answered what that fundamental "thing" is—the entity that actually *exists* and possesses the capacity to move and work, thereby building the entire universe and everything in it. All we know is that this thing—this core existence—has the power to move and act. When it’s at rest, it has no physical properties, no shape, and to any observer, it looks like empty space or a field. It looks like nothing. It’s only when it starts moving and doing its thing that it takes on objective, physical, perceptible qualities. But there's a massive catch. That physical, energetic stuff we can actually see and feel? That isn't the actual entity that started moving. That's just the byproduct of its action. We're seeing the work, not the worker. The "He" at the heart of that action remains invisible and unknown to everyone else. He stays known only to Himself and to the action He is performing.

How does philosophy even run into this mess? It happens when people try to hunt down the Truth—the big "T" Truth—aka "the thing-in-itself." Basically, you realize that if we could actually grasp the Truth, we’d finally understand what everything in the universe actually *is* on its own. Not just how things look to us observers, but what they truly are in their own skin. Because let's face it: what we see is always just a projection. To an outsider, things are always something different than what they are deep down. I think Schopenhauer spent the most time banging his head against this "thing-in-itself" problem. And honestly? He failed. He just slapped the label "transcendental" on the whole area of knowledge and called it a day, without ever giving a straight answer as to what "transcendental" even means.

In this light, if we actually want to uncover the "Truth with a capital T," our first move should be asking WHAT EXISTS? We need to tackle "things as they are" head-on. Without answering that, we’re just spinning our wheels—we won't ever truly grasp what actually exists or what the "Truth with a capital T" really looks like.

Look, I’m convinced we already have all the individual pieces of this massive puzzle called the "Truth with a capital T." What we're missing is the big picture itself. You don't see the whole mosaic until every single piece is snapped into its rightful place. Honestly, I don't think it's that hard. If there are people here actually interested in chasing the "Truth with a capital T," we can finish this if we follow the path I'm laying out right now.

This brings to mind Plato’s Parmenides—a rather exhausting logical exercise, if one has the patience for it—which grapples with the concept of the ONE. The general conclusion drawn from the two primary premises (if the One is, and if the One is not) essentially suggests that that single thing, whether it exists or not, and both it and the other, in relation to themselves and to each other, in every conceivable way, both are and are not, and seem to be and seem not to be (as all things do). Plotinus leaned more heavily into Plato's concept of the ONE. Besides, even if we were to grasp this "one," what would we actually do with it? In this fragmented world of ours, the ONE serves little purpose. Even God is understood to divide into three divine persons.

I suspect Schopenhauer dealt most extensively with the problem of the "thing-in-itself" in philosophy.

No, that was Kant; Schopenhauer portrayed the thing-in-itself as Will.
Nancy Chase2 Nancy Chase2 Member
17 messages
joined Dec 2002
#55 ·
Sandra Wilson68 said:Gregory Nelson

Whatever. Just keep in mind that there's a specific kind of "whatever" we’re talking about—the stuff we actually know exists. That kind of whatever? It exists twice over.

The single biggest blunder in philosophy—honestly, maybe even in how we process reality itself—is this delusional assumption that "everything" actually exists.

There’s no such thing as "everything"!

There is only ONE existence. Everything else—all this "stuff" we see around us—is just that ONE thing transforming itself through a long, grueling process we call "evolution." Why do we still act like there's more than one thing? All this "stuff" is just how that ONE thing manifests itself physically. These things pop in and out of existence all the time. They are nothing more than the physical, synchronized movements and actions of that ONE entity. Because they are just actions, they can start and stop whenever they feel like it. And because they are just movements, they don't actually possess "existence" on their own. Only that ONE thing has the capacity to move and perform those actions. Think about it: a runner sprinting down a track in New York City isn't the same thing as the act of running. The run is just an action; the runner is the reality. This rule applies to the entire universe and everything you can touch or see—from subatomic particles and atoms to planets, cells, plants, animals, or humans. They are all just different, rhythmic movements of that ONE thing. They cycle through beginnings and endings, but they don't hold the weight of existence. Only that ONE thing, acting from the core of everything, actually exists. That ONE thing never changes; it’s eternal. Only its movements change. It's simple: the ONE is the cause, and everything else is just the effect.

Even Hegel gets this right when he dives into his logic of existence. Here’s the gist: if something exists as a FIRST state and then evolves into something ELSE, that "else" isn't actually a new thing. It still exists—it’s just the FIRST thing shifting its shape or moving into a different phase.

Physics is basically trying to tackle the exact same headache, though they haven't cracked it yet. The only real difference is the angle. They aren't asking "What exists?" instead, they're obsessing over "What is the universe actually made of?" The current takeaway is that matter isn't even a thing—it’s just energy. Everything is built from energy, which, if you strip it down, is nothing more than movement and work. But here’s the kicker: physics still hasn't answered what that fundamental "thing" is—the entity that actually *exists* and possesses the capacity to move and work, thereby building the entire universe and everything in it. All we know is that this thing—this core existence—has the power to move and act. When it’s at rest, it has no physical properties, no shape, and to any observer, it looks like empty space or a field. It looks like nothing. It’s only when it starts moving and doing its thing that it takes on objective, physical, perceptible qualities. But there's a massive catch. That physical, energetic stuff we can actually see and feel? That isn't the actual entity that started moving. That's just the byproduct of its action. We're seeing the work, not the worker. The "He" at the heart of that action remains invisible and unknown to everyone else. He stays known only to Himself and to the action He is performing.

How does philosophy even run into this mess? It happens when people try to hunt down the Truth—the big "T" Truth—aka "the thing-in-itself." Basically, you realize that if we could actually grasp the Truth, we’d finally understand what everything in the universe actually *is* on its own. Not just how things look to us observers, but what they truly are in their own skin. Because let's face it: what we see is always just a projection. To an outsider, things are always something different than what they are deep down. I think Schopenhauer spent the most time banging his head against this "thing-in-itself" problem. And honestly? He failed. He just slapped the label "transcendental" on the whole area of knowledge and called it a day, without ever giving a straight answer as to what "transcendental" even means.

In this light, if we actually want to uncover the "Truth with a capital T," our first move should be asking WHAT EXISTS? We need to tackle "things as they are" head-on. Without answering that, we’re just spinning our wheels—we won't ever truly grasp what actually exists or what the "Truth with a capital T" really looks like.

Look, I’m convinced we already have all the individual pieces of this massive puzzle called the "Truth with a capital T." What we're missing is the big picture itself. You don't see the whole mosaic until every single piece is snapped into its rightful place. Honestly, I don't think it's that hard. If there are people here actually interested in chasing the "Truth with a capital T," we can finish this if we follow the path I'm laying out right now.

Asking "Who or what am I?" is essentially an attempt to engage with the "thing-in-itself." Our physical manifestation serves as one part of the answer to that inquiry, wrapping up the whole process of trying to figure out who or what we really are.
Sandra Wilson68 Sandra Wilson68 Active Member
75 messages
joined Mar 2004
#56 ·
Gregory Nelson
This kind of thing reminds me of Plato’s *Parmenides*—which, let's be honest, is a total brain-melter if you try to read it for fun. It basically obsesses over the concept of "The One." The whole argument boils down to two main premises: if the One exists, or if it doesn't. From there, it spirals into this madness where everything is simultaneously existing and not existing, appearing and not appearing, all at once. Total headache. Plotinus leaned much harder into Plato’s idea of The One, but even if we actually wrap our heads around it, what's the point? What are we supposed to do with "The One"? In this messy, chaotic world we live in, that singular unity isn't even useful. Even the concept of God involves a split into three distinct persons. So yeah, one single thing just doesn't cut it.

My take on "THE ONE" isn't some flimsy philosophical concept you can compare to anything else out there. I’m not basing this on some abstract logic puzzles or endless mental gymnastics. This is grounded in actual scientific experience. When I talk about THE ONE, I’m talking about something concrete: SPACE-VACUUM-NOTHINGNESS. We’re talking about that specific void where empirical science can't prove there are any particles or objective properties at all. It’s called "ONE" because it isn't divided into twos, threes, or anything else. There’s nothing inside it to distinguish one part from another. In terms of both quantum physics and philosophy, this Space is everything. It's the source code. Out of this void, the entire Universe emerges—all those physical things with actual shapes and properties. It’s the origin of all that "stuff" we can actually count, moving from the singular One into the plurality of two, three, four, five, and so on.
This entire space defined by the ONE is what matters when we talk about the "Truth" with a capital T. Why? Because it’s the only thing that actually EXISTS. It’s the only real answer to the question of what's actually out there. Everything else—all that objective, physical, energetic, or material junk that pops out of this space—can't even be called "existent." They're just tiny fragments of that same self-moving space. Even when it starts moving, it’s still just the ONE that exists. The only difference is that once it gets going, it takes on physical shapes and properties. When it's sitting still, all those "objective" traits just vanish. It’s like running—once the runner stops, the act of running is gone. All you're left with is the CAPACITY of that space to exert itself and move. That’s the line between the SPACE itself and the "stuff" it spits out. The space doesn't have physical traits or a shape; it just has the CAPACITY to move, and through that movement, it creates its own form. Those forms can be infinitely diverse, so honestly, wasting time trying to find some Big Truth in them is pointless. You gotta focus on the space itself and its CAPABILITIES.
To kick things off, we’ve already pinpointed one of his GREAT ABILITIES—that knack he has for actually stepping up and making things happen. We can pretty much chalk that ability up as a core piece of the "Truth of Power."
Look, this ability isn't the only thing Space has up its sleeve. It’s definitely not enough on its own to just morph everything into the Universe—all those physical shapes like subatomic particles, atoms, stars, cells, plants, animals, people, you name it. Space has more tricks than that. If you're actually interested in this stuff, try to dig deep and figure out what else it might be capable of. I’m talking about abilities you might know from science or even just your own life experience. We need to wrap our heads around these powers if we ever want to answer the two big questions that make up the core of the "Truth" with a capital T: HOW does this ONE thing exist, and WHY does it exist?
Sandra Wilson68 Sandra Wilson68 Active Member
75 messages
joined Mar 2004
#57 ·
Nancy Chase2,
Quincy:
"Who am I?" is basically just wrestling with things as they actually are. Your physical existence is nothing more than the answer to that question—it’s the result of constantly asking it.
I don't buy the idea that our physical presence or what we actually do defines who we are. Our physical shape, the way we move, the stuff we get done—that isn't "us." We’re something else entirely. We are the ones who possess the CAPACITY to move and act, using that movement to basically sculpt a physical persona. Think about it: running isn't the runner. The runner is the entity that exists and possesses the CAPACITY to run. You can study the mechanics of a sprint all day long, but you aren't going to learn anything about the runner by looking at the run. It's the same deal with science. You can study the material space through empirical observation all you want, but you'll never grasp the actual cause behind it.

Look, physical shape and how something acts? That’s just an "attribute" or a "property." We can observe that stuff through our senses or run scientific tests on it, but it doesn't touch the level of what we call the "thing-in-itself." If you want to talk about the actual "thing-in-itself," you have to look at CAPABILITIES. Those are the underlying powers a thing must possess just to be able to manifest any kind of physical shape or property in the first place.

Look, I'm not saying you can't stumble onto those abilities through empirical means, but let's be real—it’s never going to be direct. You're only ever getting there indirectly.
What does "indirectly" even mean?

So, what you're saying is we can only really prove someone else can think by looking at them and comparing their actions to our own. We see ourselves thinking and creating, then we watch someone else act, draw a parallel, and go, "Okay, they must have that same mental gear running too." It’s all indirect. You can't just peer into someone else's brain and verify their consciousness. You can only experience your own physical and mental abilities as a "thing in itself" directly. Everything else? It's just an educated guess based on observation.

It’s the exact same deal with space—it's the only thing that actually exists. We can basically hack our way into understanding its true capabilities by looking inward. If we study ourselves as a "thing in itself" until we hit the limit, we find a shortcut. Since we're just tiny pieces of this massive cosmic puzzle, we can compare our own patterns to how the universe acts. If we conclude that the universe behaves just like we do, then we've cracked the code on what it truly is. It's how we uncover the big "Truth."

Just a heads-up for our research: let's stop blurring the lines between "properties" and "abilities." They aren't the same thing. Properties can be infinitely diverse—it’s what makes everything in space unique and what actually builds the whole mess of reality. But abilities? There are only a handful of those, and every single thing in space has to possess them. Even space itself has to have them; otherwise, it couldn't even separate itself from its own existence to create anything at all.

It’s like an alphabet. You take maybe thirty letters, and suddenly you can churn out infinite words, sentences, or entire libraries of science and literature. Same deal with us. With just a handful of core abilities—specifically seven physical and mental ones—you can build basically anything. We're talking endless material forms with endless different properties. If we actually bother to deconstruct and master those seven abilities, answering the big questions becomes easy. What, how, and why does anything even exist? That's how you find the "Truth" with a capital T. It's how you figure out what everything in space actually is at its core.
Nancy Chase2 Nancy Chase2 Member
17 messages
joined Dec 2002
#58 ·
Quincy:
Sandra Wilson68 As Nancy Chase2 points out:
I find myself unable to agree with the notion that our physical presence or our daily activities constitute an answer to the question of "Who am I?" Our physical manifestation—our bodily shape, every movement we make, and every action we perform—is fundamentally distinct from our true selves. We are something entirely separate from the sum of our physical faces and deeds. We are the entity that possesses the capacity to move and act, using that very ability to project a physical persona or shape upon the world. Consider the runner: running itself is not the runner. The runner is the underlying being who exists in relation to the act of running, possessing the inherent capability to run. Consequently, there is no way to learn anything about the runner by merely observing the mechanics of the run; you cannot derive the cause from the effect. It is much like how we can never truly grasp the ultimate cause of our material space through the empirical, scientific study of its consequences.
If there truly exists only a single, unified essence, then how can we reconcile that with the sheer, undeniable weight of our physical reality? I find myself pondering how our tangible manifestations—our actual shapes, the way we move through a room, every singular action we take—can possibly be considered separate from our true selves if everything is fundamentally one. It’s like trying to argue that the ripples on a pond are distinct from the water itself; they are movements of the whole, yet they appear to us as individual events. If we are part of a singular totality, why does the physical world feel so stubbornly independent?

If there truly exists only one singular essence, then how do we justify the illusion of being anything more than the sum of our physical movements and fleeting actions?

How does a runner realize they possess the capacity to run, if running itself isn't the essence of the runner?
Sandra Wilson68 said:Nancy Chase2,
Quincy:
"Who am I?" is basically just wrestling with things as they actually are. Your physical existence is nothing more than the answer to that question—it’s the result of constantly asking it.
I don't buy the idea that our physical presence or what we actually do defines who we are. Our physical shape, the way we move, the stuff we get done—that isn't "us." We’re something else entirely. We are the ones who possess the CAPACITY to move and act, using that movement to basically sculpt a physical persona. Think about it: running isn't the runner. The runner is the entity that exists and possesses the CAPACITY to run. You can study the mechanics of a sprint all day long, but you aren't going to learn anything about the runner by looking at the run. It's the same deal with science. You can study the material space through empirical observation all you want, but you'll never grasp the actual cause behind it.

Look, physical shape and how something acts? That’s just an "attribute" or a "property." We can observe that stuff through our senses or run scientific tests on it, but it doesn't touch the level of what we call the "thing-in-itself." If you want to talk about the actual "thing-in-itself," you have to look at CAPABILITIES. Those are the underlying powers a thing must possess just to be able to manifest any kind of physical shape or property in the first place.

Look, I'm not saying you can't stumble onto those abilities through empirical means, but let's be real—it’s never going to be direct. You're only ever getting there indirectly.
What does "indirectly" even mean?

So, what you're saying is we can only really prove someone else can think by looking at them and comparing their actions to our own. We see ourselves thinking and creating, then we watch someone else act, draw a parallel, and go, "Okay, they must have that same mental gear running too." It’s all indirect. You can't just peer into someone else's brain and verify their consciousness. You can only experience your own physical and mental abilities as a "thing in itself" directly. Everything else? It's just an educated guess based on observation.

It’s the exact same deal with space—it's the only thing that actually exists. We can basically hack our way into understanding its true capabilities by looking inward. If we study ourselves as a "thing in itself" until we hit the limit, we find a shortcut. Since we're just tiny pieces of this massive cosmic puzzle, we can compare our own patterns to how the universe acts. If we conclude that the universe behaves just like we do, then we've cracked the code on what it truly is. It's how we uncover the big "Truth."

Just a heads-up for our research: let's stop blurring the lines between "properties" and "abilities." They aren't the same thing. Properties can be infinitely diverse—it’s what makes everything in space unique and what actually builds the whole mess of reality. But abilities? There are only a handful of those, and every single thing in space has to possess them. Even space itself has to have them; otherwise, it couldn't even separate itself from its own existence to create anything at all.

It’s like an alphabet. You take maybe thirty letters, and suddenly you can churn out infinite words, sentences, or entire libraries of science and literature. Same deal with us. With just a handful of core abilities—specifically seven physical and mental ones—you can build basically anything. We're talking endless material forms with endless different properties. If we actually bother to deconstruct and master those seven abilities, answering the big questions becomes easy. What, how, and why does anything even exist? That's how you find the "Truth" with a capital T. It's how you figure out what everything in space actually is at its core.

But how are we, as "things in ourselves," supposed to actually discover and master those inherent capabilities within us?

Sandra Wilson68 said:Nancy Chase2,
Quincy:
"Who am I?" is basically just wrestling with things as they actually are. Your physical existence is nothing more than the answer to that question—it’s the result of constantly asking it.
I don't buy the idea that our physical presence or what we actually do defines who we are. Our physical shape, the way we move, the stuff we get done—that isn't "us." We’re something else entirely. We are the ones who possess the CAPACITY to move and act, using that movement to basically sculpt a physical persona. Think about it: running isn't the runner. The runner is the entity that exists and possesses the CAPACITY to run. You can study the mechanics of a sprint all day long, but you aren't going to learn anything about the runner by looking at the run. It's the same deal with science. You can study the material space through empirical observation all you want, but you'll never grasp the actual cause behind it.

Look, physical shape and how something acts? That’s just an "attribute" or a "property." We can observe that stuff through our senses or run scientific tests on it, but it doesn't touch the level of what we call the "thing-in-itself." If you want to talk about the actual "thing-in-itself," you have to look at CAPABILITIES. Those are the underlying powers a thing must possess just to be able to manifest any kind of physical shape or property in the first place.

Look, I'm not saying you can't stumble onto those abilities through empirical means, but let's be real—it’s never going to be direct. You're only ever getting there indirectly.
What does "indirectly" even mean?

So, what you're saying is we can only really prove someone else can think by looking at them and comparing their actions to our own. We see ourselves thinking and creating, then we watch someone else act, draw a parallel, and go, "Okay, they must have that same mental gear running too." It’s all indirect. You can't just peer into someone else's brain and verify their consciousness. You can only experience your own physical and mental abilities as a "thing in itself" directly. Everything else? It's just an educated guess based on observation.

It’s the exact same deal with space—it's the only thing that actually exists. We can basically hack our way into understanding its true capabilities by looking inward. If we study ourselves as a "thing in itself" until we hit the limit, we find a shortcut. Since we're just tiny pieces of this massive cosmic puzzle, we can compare our own patterns to how the universe acts. If we conclude that the universe behaves just like we do, then we've cracked the code on what it truly is. It's how we uncover the big "Truth."

Just a heads-up for our research: let's stop blurring the lines between "properties" and "abilities." They aren't the same thing. Properties can be infinitely diverse—it’s what makes everything in space unique and what actually builds the whole mess of reality. But abilities? There are only a handful of those, and every single thing in space has to possess them. Even space itself has to have them; otherwise, it couldn't even separate itself from its own existence to create anything at all.

It’s like an alphabet. You take maybe thirty letters, and suddenly you can churn out infinite words, sentences, or entire libraries of science and literature. Same deal with us. With just a handful of core abilities—specifically seven physical and mental ones—you can build basically anything. We're talking endless material forms with endless different properties. If we actually bother to deconstruct and master those seven abilities, answering the big questions becomes easy. What, how, and why does anything even exist? That's how you find the "Truth" with a capital T. It's how you figure out what everything in space actually is at its core.

fair enough
Sandra Wilson68 Sandra Wilson68 Active Member
75 messages
joined Mar 2004
#59 ·
Nancy Chase2

If our physical manifestation—our actual shape, all our movements and actions—isn't actually "us," then what's going on if there's only one single reality?

How are we anything other than the sum of our physical faces and actions if there's just one thing existing?

How does a runner realize they have the ability to run, if running itself isn't the runner?

Solid questions. Looks like you actually paid attention to my previous posts.

Our physical form and every single physical action we take are ONE. You can't separate an action from the person doing it. But our PERCEPTION of ourselves—and how we perceive all those physical and mental actions—is a different story. We use different methods to know things.

We experience ourselves as the "doer" through non-sensory means, deep inside us (as a "thing-in-itself"). What we find that way is our inner core, our CONSCIOUS SELF. That's the entity driving and causing everything we do. This kind of knowing is called "self-knowledge." This specific type of internal realization—where we experience ourselves within ourselves—is something known only to us and absolutely nobody else.

On the flip side, we experience our actions through our senses, as our outward reality. Anyone can observe those actions through their senses; they are public knowledge.

The problem—the mistake we make when chasing the "Truth" with a capital T—is that we lean too heavily on our senses. We rely on empirical science, treating it like it's all-powerful, but all it does is let us observe the external side of things. We end up seeing space only as a series of actions and consequences, while the actual cause and driver behind those actions remains a total mystery. For the "Truth" with a capital T, that simply doesn't cut it. You need a method to uncover the internal reality of the world and space itself—to understand space as a "thing-in-itself." We need to know what space actually is deep down, rather than just how it appears to some observer looking at it from the outside.

Take science (physics), for example. It's long since been established that "the movement of matter is self-movement." But that's just a statement—a sensory observation of dry facts. You can't call that the "Truth" with a capital T. It lacks the explanation needed to answer the real questions: how is it possible that matter moves by itself, what exactly is inside it that makes it move, and what even *is* matter, or why does it exist at all? You aren't going to get answers to those using empirical methods alone, because the question is about what matter is in its essence, as a "thing-in-itself."

How are we, as a "thing-in-itself," supposed to discover and learn this ability within ourselves?

I've already touched on this in my last two or three posts.

First off, it’s worth noting that Descartes figured out a long time ago which method a person can actually use to prove the existence of their own CONSCIOUS SELF as a "thing-in-itself."

It's possible through the physical and mental actions that our conscious self has the CAPACITY to perform. One of those actions is thinking. That's exactly why Descartes could tell himself, "I think, therefore I am," effectively proving his conscious self exists within him.

Our conscious self, as a "thing-in-itself," possesses seven distinct physical and mental abilities. They are: exertion, movement, perception, feeling, memory, thought, and understanding.

These abilities of the self are more than enough for our self to exist entirely on its own—eternally, without any outside help, not even divine intervention—acting as both its own cause and its own effect. No person on Earth should have any trouble discovering, proving, or realizing these abilities within themselves.

But what about discovering, proving, and actually grasping how all that "stuff" outside of us even exists? Does the material, physical world we can touch—and everything it’s made of—possess those same faculties humans have? And does it exist independently, just like we do, through those same actions and abilities?

Answering this isn't rocket science. You just need to look at matter and space through a scientific, empirical lens. We have to determine if matter and the universe, much like humans, engage in acts of tension, movement, perception, sensation, memory, and reasoning. If we find they do, then it’s proof they hold those same capacities required to exist independently, just like people. Because if we establish that these actions "exist"—meaning they play out as physical and psychological processes—then it proves the CAPABILITIES to perform them exist, along with an actor who wields those abilities as the cause of it all. At the end of the day, humans aren't some special exception to the rest of the stuff making up space; we're built from the exact same building blocks. So, if a human has the tools to exist on their own, why wouldn't the universe?

Modern science already shows us that what we call energy or matter has the capacity to carry out all seven of these physical and mental actions—actions like tension, movement, perception, sensation, memory, thought, and reasoning (if that weren't true, our computers and all the tech based on electronics wouldn't even function), and there's really no need to prove it further. Therefore, it's a known fact that matter and space possess these same capabilities and exist as "things in themselves," just like we do.

And that would be it—the "Truth with a capital T." A truth rooted in experience, easy to prove, and completely logical and understandable.

It becomes especially easy to wrap your head around when you use your own experience of existing—your self-preservation and your sense of self—to analyze the link between physical and mental actions. That's when you easily uncover the LAW by which this SELF-PRESERVATION eternally unfolds. But hey, that's a whole other conversation.
neonscout5 neonscout5 Member
23 messages
joined Apr 2010
#60 ·
Truth remains universal for any seeker, regardless of the path they take to find it.
Like all true insights, it arrives through feeling—though we often rely on blunt instruments like language and words to try and describe it.

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