#1 ·
look.
we gotta nail down a definition first—then we can see where all those rabbit holes actually lead.
we gotta nail down a definition first—then we can see where all those rabbit holes actually lead.
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Willpower
Willpower
Started by Joshua Hernandez9 · · 👁 4 views · 72 replies
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#2 ·
I well, this thing is heading in a few different directions at once 😁
And where the hell is it all actually going?
And where the hell is it all actually going?
#3 ·
Hmm, let me give this a shot.
I wouldn't try to "define" will (not in a strict sense), because it’s too complex a philosophical concept to pin down so easily. In fact, the moment you try to define it, you shut the door on so many other ways of thinking about it. I think we should approach the concept intuitively.
It's pretty clear that the question of will is tied directly to whether that will is actually "free."
It also seems obvious that it can't be "free" if we view will as a material phenomenon—just a manifestation of specific brain functions. Nothing in physics suggests that "freedom" could exist within a system governed by immutable physical laws.
Because of that, I look at it through two different lenses simultaneously: the materialistic and the mystical. (Though, personally, the former feels more convincing to me.)
If we assume a material basis for "will," it becomes easy to conclude that it isn't "free" at all. (The very concept of "freedom" is quite mystical.) From a purely materialistic standpoint, here is how I would define "will": it's the term we use for a certain complex internal *impulse* that we experience as being "our own"—meaning, it's an impulse we accept.
See, there are internal impulses we dislike (again, due to various psychological reasons, mostly shaped by social feedback), and then there are internal impulses we enjoy. We label those latter ones as our "own will." It’s a bit of a nonsense distinction, really, because it still isn't "true will"; it's just an internal drive that we don't feel the need to fight against. (Since we see no reason to.)
Of course, we don't call every single internal impulse "will," just certain ones. Which ones? I’d say the ones directed toward the future—specifically, conscious "goals" that aren't so trivial that we mistake them for basic biological impulses. We recognize basic impulses as "instinct," not as an "expression of will." (I mean, nobody is going to point to an erection as proof of free will, LOL).
To put it simply: will is the term we use to describe a complex need arising from the interplay of instinct, reason, and self-awareness, specifically regarding conscious, imagined future goals.
(That’s from my materialistic perspective, anyway. I'll leave the mystical side to someone else...)
I wouldn't try to "define" will (not in a strict sense), because it’s too complex a philosophical concept to pin down so easily. In fact, the moment you try to define it, you shut the door on so many other ways of thinking about it. I think we should approach the concept intuitively.
It's pretty clear that the question of will is tied directly to whether that will is actually "free."
It also seems obvious that it can't be "free" if we view will as a material phenomenon—just a manifestation of specific brain functions. Nothing in physics suggests that "freedom" could exist within a system governed by immutable physical laws.
Because of that, I look at it through two different lenses simultaneously: the materialistic and the mystical. (Though, personally, the former feels more convincing to me.)
If we assume a material basis for "will," it becomes easy to conclude that it isn't "free" at all. (The very concept of "freedom" is quite mystical.) From a purely materialistic standpoint, here is how I would define "will": it's the term we use for a certain complex internal *impulse* that we experience as being "our own"—meaning, it's an impulse we accept.
See, there are internal impulses we dislike (again, due to various psychological reasons, mostly shaped by social feedback), and then there are internal impulses we enjoy. We label those latter ones as our "own will." It’s a bit of a nonsense distinction, really, because it still isn't "true will"; it's just an internal drive that we don't feel the need to fight against. (Since we see no reason to.)
Of course, we don't call every single internal impulse "will," just certain ones. Which ones? I’d say the ones directed toward the future—specifically, conscious "goals" that aren't so trivial that we mistake them for basic biological impulses. We recognize basic impulses as "instinct," not as an "expression of will." (I mean, nobody is going to point to an erection as proof of free will, LOL).
To put it simply: will is the term we use to describe a complex need arising from the interplay of instinct, reason, and self-awareness, specifically regarding conscious, imagined future goals.
(That’s from my materialistic perspective, anyway. I'll leave the mystical side to someone else...)
#4 ·
Could be about free will—or maybe just what the hell it can actually accomplish.
it’s interesting that you’re framing will as some kind of "need."
(To me, it feels more like a vector. A force pushing in a specific direction.
A need is something that drives you—something you're being pushed by—whereas will is the thing you use to push.
)
(I haven't really organized my thoughts yet, so I'm just throwing out bullet points and letting you guys do the heavy lifting.😁)
it’s interesting that you’re framing will as some kind of "need."
(To me, it feels more like a vector. A force pushing in a specific direction.
A need is something that drives you—something you're being pushed by—whereas will is the thing you use to push.
)
(I haven't really organized my thoughts yet, so I'm just throwing out bullet points and letting you guys do the heavy lifting.😁)
#5 ·
Think about someone struggling with obesity and all the health issues that come with it.
They feel hungry.
Basically, they have this craving for food.
That craving is the trigger—they start plotting how to get their hands on food, focusing on a near-term future where they finally satisfy that urge.
But what actually drives them toward the fridge, the grocery store, or a drive-thru isn't willpower.
Willpower would be the exact thing that stops them from walking to that fridge in the first place.
So, you only really recognize willpower when it's clashing with some intense, primal, or habitual impulse—maybe even a biological one.
Using willpower is basically our way of breaking free from being slaves to whatever we've just accepted as "normal."
They feel hungry.
Basically, they have this craving for food.
That craving is the trigger—they start plotting how to get their hands on food, focusing on a near-term future where they finally satisfy that urge.
But what actually drives them toward the fridge, the grocery store, or a drive-thru isn't willpower.
Willpower would be the exact thing that stops them from walking to that fridge in the first place.
So, you only really recognize willpower when it's clashing with some intense, primal, or habitual impulse—maybe even a biological one.
Using willpower is basically our way of breaking free from being slaves to whatever we've just accepted as "normal."
#6 ·
Joshua Hernandez9 said:Think about someone struggling with obesity and all the health issues that come with it.
They feel hungry.
Basically, they have this craving for food.
That craving is the trigger—they start plotting how to get their hands on food, focusing on a near-term future where they finally satisfy that urge.
But what actually drives them toward the fridge, the grocery store, or a drive-thru isn't willpower.
Willpower would be the exact thing that stops them from walking to that fridge in the first place.
So, you only really recognize willpower when it's clashing with some intense, primal, or habitual impulse—maybe even a biological one.
Using willpower is basically our way of breaking free from being slaves to whatever we've just accepted as "normal."
That’s a bit of a mystical explanation, don't you think? 😬
The materialistic perspective is much more straightforward: that "will" to prevent something is actually the exact same thing as the will to eat. It’s just that the craving for food is incredibly simple and obvious; it’s an innate drive with a clear biological foundation. The willpower behind a diet is a bit more layered. Someone might want to lose weight to look better, to improve their health, or for some other specific reason. But at its core, it’s still that same "inner compulsion"—it's just that this particular impulse isn't quite as one-dimensional as the raw, primal urge to grab a snack.
I have to admit, I’m starting to lean more toward this "mystical" idea of free will myself—it honestly feels more compelling than my old naturalistic explanations. But hey, sometimes you just have to go with whatever makes more sense in the moment. 🤷 😠 😢
#7 ·
Joshua Hernandez9 said:Could be about free will—or maybe just what the hell it can actually accomplish.
it’s interesting that you’re framing will as some kind of "need."
(To me, it feels more like a vector. A force pushing in a specific direction.
A need is something that drives you—something you're being pushed by—whereas will is the thing you use to push.
)
(I haven't really organized my thoughts yet, so I'm just throwing out bullet points and letting you guys do the heavy lifting.😁)
Well, I actually used the word "impulse" rather than "need"—though they’re pretty close. An impulse is essentially an "inclination." A "decision," then, would really just be our "consent" to that inclination; and it's the kind of consent we only become aware of half a second AFTER we've already "decided." This implies that decisions actually happen "on their own" (subconsciously), and we only realize them once the choice is made. From there, it follows that freedom is an illusion, which aligns perfectly with the materialistic view of the world as a collection of matter and energy entirely subject to physical laws—both the ones we know and perhaps some we haven't discovered yet.
By the way, let me reiterate—this whole conclusion triggers some "depressing thoughts" for me, LOL. According to that logic, it simply means my psychological makeup is such that certain ideas produce depressive effects. That's why I say I prefer a mystical explanation, even though I don't actually believe in one. It serves as a sort of "safety valve" so I don't completely lose it.
#9 ·
lonegardener said:Well, I actually used the word "impulse" rather than "need"—though they’re pretty close. An impulse is essentially an "inclination." A "decision," then, would really just be our "consent" to that inclination; and it's the kind of consent we only become aware of half a second AFTER we've already "decided." This implies that decisions actually happen "on their own" (subconsciously), and we only realize them once the choice is made. From there, it follows that freedom is an illusion, which aligns perfectly with the materialistic view of the world as a collection of matter and energy entirely subject to physical laws—both the ones we know and perhaps some we haven't discovered yet.
By the way, let me reiterate—this whole conclusion triggers some "depressing thoughts" for me, LOL. According to that logic, it simply means my psychological makeup is such that certain ideas produce depressive effects. That's why I say I prefer a mystical explanation, even though I don't actually believe in one. It serves as a sort of "safety valve" so I don't completely lose it.
Hmm.
If you look at it like willpower is some kind of internal force—kind of like an engine just forcing itself to turn—then everything changes. you tooIt’s just like drive—that "vector" that kicks in when you're feeling a need and starts pointing straight toward getting satisfied. How does that even work?
Look—you can't find a single person out there who isn't driven by their own basic needs and urges. It's just how it works.
Hardly anyone actually shows any real willpower—you know, that whole thing where you actually fight your own impulses instead of just letting them run the show? Most people are just slaves to their instincts.
lonegardener said:Well, I actually used the word "impulse" rather than "need"—though they’re pretty close. An impulse is essentially an "inclination." A "decision," then, would really just be our "consent" to that inclination; and it's the kind of consent we only become aware of half a second AFTER we've already "decided." This implies that decisions actually happen "on their own" (subconsciously), and we only realize them once the choice is made. From there, it follows that freedom is an illusion, which aligns perfectly with the materialistic view of the world as a collection of matter and energy entirely subject to physical laws—both the ones we know and perhaps some we haven't discovered yet.
By the way, let me reiterate—this whole conclusion triggers some "depressing thoughts" for me, LOL. According to that logic, it simply means my psychological makeup is such that certain ideas produce depressive effects. That's why I say I prefer a mystical explanation, even though I don't actually believe in one. It serves as a sort of "safety valve" so I don't completely lose it.
Hey!
I dig that slant angle idea—it works.
I actually had a dream pretty much like that last night—weird coincidence. 😁
Look, satisfying those primal drives is basically like a steep hill—you drop a marble at the top and it’s rolling down whether you like it or not.
Will would be like trying to roll a marble uphill—basically a losing battle. 😁
lonegardener said:Well, I actually used the word "impulse" rather than "need"—though they’re pretty close. An impulse is essentially an "inclination." A "decision," then, would really just be our "consent" to that inclination; and it's the kind of consent we only become aware of half a second AFTER we've already "decided." This implies that decisions actually happen "on their own" (subconsciously), and we only realize them once the choice is made. From there, it follows that freedom is an illusion, which aligns perfectly with the materialistic view of the world as a collection of matter and energy entirely subject to physical laws—both the ones we know and perhaps some we haven't discovered yet.
By the way, let me reiterate—this whole conclusion triggers some "depressing thoughts" for me, LOL. According to that logic, it simply means my psychological makeup is such that certain ideas produce depressive effects. That's why I say I prefer a mystical explanation, even though I don't actually believe in one. It serves as a sort of "safety valve" so I don't completely lose it.
You just don't have the drive to be a believer—it's like trying to run a marathon without even putting on your sneakers. 😁
I'm not totally sold on the whole "free will" thing—don't know if we actually have total control—but I do think you can use your own willpower to claw back a bit more freedom than where you started.
lonegardener said:Well, I actually used the word "impulse" rather than "need"—though they’re pretty close. An impulse is essentially an "inclination." A "decision," then, would really just be our "consent" to that inclination; and it's the kind of consent we only become aware of half a second AFTER we've already "decided." This implies that decisions actually happen "on their own" (subconsciously), and we only realize them once the choice is made. From there, it follows that freedom is an illusion, which aligns perfectly with the materialistic view of the world as a collection of matter and energy entirely subject to physical laws—both the ones we know and perhaps some we haven't discovered yet.
By the way, let me reiterate—this whole conclusion triggers some "depressing thoughts" for me, LOL. According to that logic, it simply means my psychological makeup is such that certain ideas produce depressive effects. That's why I say I prefer a mystical explanation, even though I don't actually believe in one. It serves as a sort of "safety valve" so I don't completely lose it.
Let’s say the woman isn't even overweight—let's just say she thinks the whole concept of "hunger" is totally blown out of proportion and mostly manufactured by society.😁
Maybe she just wants to see how far she can push her ability to go without eating anything at all.😁
Willpower is basically just self-force, but if you ask me, unlike an instinct, willpower feels like a civil war inside your own head—like a better version of you is bullying your weaker self into doing something.
I’ve honestly never heard anyone talk about having a "will for food."
Have you ever actually heard someone use the word "will" in that context?
I think there's a massive difference between how we use "willpower" versus "instinct."
Do you even see the distinction? (And if you do, why do you think that is?)
Can we please focus on the things that are actually *of the same nature* for once?
#10 ·
Mark Torres14 said:Let's give this a shot.
The whole idea is just about trying to bring some order to the chaos.
What kind of order though?
#11 ·
Joshua Hernandez9 said:What kind of order though?
Anywhere.
You don't need to add anything to chaos.
If you want to make order, you actually have to work for it.
#12 ·
.. that urge pulling you toward the fridge... it’s actually the exact same force that keeps you away from it—the one telling you that if you just hold steady, you'll end up fit and healthy enough to make the neighbors jealous..
.. the first impulse is biological.. the second is social.. but there’s a third kind of will altogether.. let's call it.. the will for self-construction..
.. honestly.. "will" is just a word, much like "need," and "need" is just a word, similar to "aspiration".. and "aspiration" is just a word, much like "intent".. so, really, the first mistake is forgetting that will is merely a linguistic label..
.. the primary rule of science is to call things by their true names—not just to dress them up in fancy suits to present them better, but so that the name actually captures the very heart of the thing.. you follow me?
.. so now.. a will for what, exactly?
.. philosophers exist for this very reason.. Nietzsche asked it himself.. a will for what?.. a will to power.. but power over what? To be the boss, perhaps.. or to have the power to turn water into wine..
.. see?.. it's that simple..
.. look, you aren't framing your topics properly.. (.. I know how to do it, but these guys I deal with just don't get it..) .. because the way you pose a question shows you're just spinning your wheels in circles—going nowhere fast—and in the end? You end up with absolutely nothing..
.. I wish I could frame both the questions and the answers more effectively.. damn it..
.. the first impulse is biological.. the second is social.. but there’s a third kind of will altogether.. let's call it.. the will for self-construction..
.. honestly.. "will" is just a word, much like "need," and "need" is just a word, similar to "aspiration".. and "aspiration" is just a word, much like "intent".. so, really, the first mistake is forgetting that will is merely a linguistic label..
.. the primary rule of science is to call things by their true names—not just to dress them up in fancy suits to present them better, but so that the name actually captures the very heart of the thing.. you follow me?
.. so now.. a will for what, exactly?
.. philosophers exist for this very reason.. Nietzsche asked it himself.. a will for what?.. a will to power.. but power over what? To be the boss, perhaps.. or to have the power to turn water into wine..
.. see?.. it's that simple..
.. look, you aren't framing your topics properly.. (.. I know how to do it, but these guys I deal with just don't get it..) .. because the way you pose a question shows you're just spinning your wheels in circles—going nowhere fast—and in the end? You end up with absolutely nothing..
.. I wish I could frame both the questions and the answers more effectively.. damn it..
#13 ·
Alright.
Picture someone dealing with OCD—someone who gets this uncontrollable, internal itch to "organize everything."
An urge they just can't switch off.
In a case like that, would you say their "will" is actually baked into the disorder itself, or is it found in the struggle to resist that drive to make everything perfect?
Picture someone dealing with OCD—someone who gets this uncontrollable, internal itch to "organize everything."
An urge they just can't switch off.
In a case like that, would you say their "will" is actually baked into the disorder itself, or is it found in the struggle to resist that drive to make everything perfect?
#14 ·
redtinker36 said:.. that urge pulling you toward the fridge... it’s actually the exact same force that keeps you away from it—the one telling you that if you just hold steady, you'll end up fit and healthy enough to make the neighbors jealous..
.. the first impulse is biological.. the second is social.. but there’s a third kind of will altogether.. let's call it.. the will for self-construction..
.. honestly.. "will" is just a word, much like "need," and "need" is just a word, similar to "aspiration".. and "aspiration" is just a word, much like "intent".. so, really, the first mistake is forgetting that will is merely a linguistic label..
.. the primary rule of science is to call things by their true names—not just to dress them up in fancy suits to present them better, but so that the name actually captures the very heart of the thing.. you follow me?
.. so now.. a will for what, exactly?
.. philosophers exist for this very reason.. Nietzsche asked it himself.. a will for what?.. a will to power.. but power over what? To be the boss, perhaps.. or to have the power to turn water into wine..
.. see?.. it's that simple..
.. look, you aren't framing your topics properly.. (.. I know how to do it, but these guys I deal with just don't get it..) .. because the way you pose a question shows you're just spinning your wheels in circles—going nowhere fast—and in the end? You end up with absolutely nothing..
.. I wish I could frame both the questions and the answers more effectively.. damn it..
.. then just post it ..
(.. I actually opened this whole thing for the people .. so everyone could step up ..
.. and for myself .. so I could clear up some bullshit that was totally muddled ..
.. honestly .. other people will slap the truth into you way harder than you'd ever do to yourself)
.. so you think this drive I have is just a power trip ..?
#15 ·
Joshua Hernandez9 said:Alright.
Picture someone dealing with OCD—someone who gets this uncontrollable, internal itch to "organize everything."
An urge they just can't switch off.
In a case like that, would you say their "will" is actually baked into the disorder itself, or is it found in the struggle to resist that drive to make everything perfect?
You missed the point.
I'm talking about the broadest possible definition of will. It applies to everything—humans and viruses alike.
Will is clearly a hallmark of life. Everything else just follows the laws of physics.
Every living thing is its own version of order.
To even stay alive, you have to constantly maintain your own internal order.
That’s exactly why will is the necessity of maintaining that order.
#16 ·
.. No.. I’d say you aren't even attempting to exert any real willpower.. so.. fine.. let me give you a few examples to work with..
.. maybe your will is what drives your actual output..
.. or perhaps your will is the tool you use to shake things up in the neighborhood.. in a way..
.. or maybe your will is simply.. well.. what gives you lift..
.. or it's the thing that lets you turn water into wine..
.. or it's the sheer grit used to keep eating.. or drinking.. or singing songs..
.. you pick.. which type of willpower you want to pivot toward.. then we can actually get down to business.. discussing how to tackle things and reach our goals.. (.. that was a bit of Mexican there.. a beautiful, melodic language..)
.. maybe your will is what drives your actual output..
.. or perhaps your will is the tool you use to shake things up in the neighborhood.. in a way..
.. or maybe your will is simply.. well.. what gives you lift..
.. or it's the thing that lets you turn water into wine..
.. or it's the sheer grit used to keep eating.. or drinking.. or singing songs..
.. you pick.. which type of willpower you want to pivot toward.. then we can actually get down to business.. discussing how to tackle things and reach our goals.. (.. that was a bit of Mexican there.. a beautiful, melodic language..)
#17 ·
.. look, you know I get pretty worked up about how people word things..
.. basically..
.. seriously.. you know I'm sensitive about this whole language thing..
.. it’s not about the goals themselves.. it’s about actually hitting those targets..
.. here..
.. I'm sticking with the wind at my back and just going where the current takes me..
.. basically..
.. seriously.. you know I'm sensitive about this whole language thing..
.. it’s not about the goals themselves.. it’s about actually hitting those targets..
.. here..
.. I'm sticking with the wind at my back and just going where the current takes me..
#18 ·
.. tell me about it... honestly, what a joke... why on earth would you waste your time on something you don't even care about? .. whether it's some local landscape painting .. or just staring at the ocean .. damn it..
#19 ·
.. stop dodging the question .. you said you’d walk me through it .. so let's go .. explain it now ..
#20 ·
.. what am I even supposed to do.. damn.. as much as I can..
.. so..
.. a human being is just an event.. a sequence.. an existence.. moving in a circle..
.. and that kind of existence isn't meant to fly.. honestly..
.. to fly, you’d need to be a different kind of existence entirely.. and which one that is.. nobody knows..
.. you're asking it this way..
.. whether this current version of existence—who you are right now—can spark that other existence.. the one capable of flight..
.. it feels unlikely, because no one else in the neighborhood can pull it off.. it feels more like there's simply no will capable of shifting you into that next lane—because if there were, someone.. maybe by accident.. would have shifted.. over there..
.. if it actually is possible, then whatever force is keeping you stuck in this lane must be.. powerful enough.. to ensure that any capacity for shifting is.. neutralized before it ever manifests..
.. what the hell does "will" even represent here? .. what can you actually achieve with your own will?
.. so..
.. a human being is just an event.. a sequence.. an existence.. moving in a circle..
.. and that kind of existence isn't meant to fly.. honestly..
.. to fly, you’d need to be a different kind of existence entirely.. and which one that is.. nobody knows..
.. you're asking it this way..
.. whether this current version of existence—who you are right now—can spark that other existence.. the one capable of flight..
.. it feels unlikely, because no one else in the neighborhood can pull it off.. it feels more like there's simply no will capable of shifting you into that next lane—because if there were, someone.. maybe by accident.. would have shifted.. over there..
.. if it actually is possible, then whatever force is keeping you stuck in this lane must be.. powerful enough.. to ensure that any capacity for shifting is.. neutralized before it ever manifests..
.. what the hell does "will" even represent here? .. what can you actually achieve with your own will?