Are schools killing critical thinking?

Donna Campbell6 said:Every kind of school out there basically works the same way—they just hand students these pre-packaged bundles of info, like it's some finished product from a factory. It’s all based on what we think we know right now in a specific field, which is usually already a little bit outdated, let's be real.
But honestly? It feels like schools are actually working against what knowledge is supposed to be. Real knowledge isn't something you can just "freeze" in place like that. Its whole vibe is to constantly question everything... and even to doubt itself. Or, well... more like seeing itself as just a temporary stepping stone toward something better and deeper down the road.
Instead, schools treat knowledge like it's set in stone, serving it up to students as this absolute truth you're just supposed to swallow whole without question. So where does that leave critical thinking? Nowhere, really.
I mean, it's hard to imagine a school functioning any other way. But doesn't that make them almost anti-scientific? They take something inherently dynamic and turn it into something totally static. And by teaching like that... aren't they just making people less sharp? What do you guys think?

Schools aren't scientific institutions; they are educational ones. Taking a strictly "scientific" approach in a K-12 setting probably wouldn't make much sense, nor would it yield many results—except maybe for the top 1% of geniuses.

Universities, on the other hand, are research institutions, and they operate with more flexibility. It isn't just about memorizing finished products. In my view, that's how they work better—and I'm not talking about commerce or economics here. 😁

steelridge58 said:Honestly, I think we should focus more on teaching logic to elementary schoolers—but specifically *their* logic! We need to nurture that natural curiosity they have and use it as a bridge to introduce them to the actual world of knowledge. In that sense, I think the "step-by-step" programs some of our local public schools implement through fourth grade are actually quite wonderful for developing various skills, though the real headache starts when they move up because the curriculum stops supporting that creative, hands-on approach. It can make it pretty tough for kids to adjust to the rigid, traditional way things are done later on, but hey, I suppose that’s still better than overwhelming them with heavy-duty requirements that are way too advanced for their age right out of the gate.

Wait, are we really talking about servantes? Like, the actual concept? Because if we are... oh man... that opens up such a massive rabbit hole! I honestly could go on about this for hours... just thinking about how it all ties together... it's wild! Seriously though, let's dive in... kaže:
Man, I still remember back in '66 when I started first grade... we spent the entire year just grinding away at uppercase and lowercase letters. That was it! Just ABCs all day long...

When I say logic, I’m not talking about some boring math equation, okay? I mean the actual game of it! You gotta use simple little games to show them basic concepts first. Then, you slowly layer on the complexity, getting more and more precise until they finally land on the actual definition. Because honestly, what is a kid even going to do with a textbook definition? My brother was stuck in third grade being forced to memorize these super technical definitions for things like "media," "television," and "the TV set." Like, seriously? Do you even know the difference between a television and the concept of television? By the time you're 30 or 40, sure, you get it. But at nine years old? It’s just exhausting... and totally boring...

So, think about it... from elementary all the way through high school, they basically throw a massive pile of subjects at you, just hoping one of them actually sticks. But honestly, is that even the right way to do things? Ever since my freshman year, I knew math was the only thing that actually clicked for me. Everything else? Total snooze fest. But I still had to grind out those grades and waste so much precious time mastering stuff I’m probably never going to use in the real world. It feels like such a waste... I know so many bright people who totally burned out trying to chase this "well-rounded education" dream, and because of that, they ended up way less prepared for the careers they actually love. It's such a double-edged sword, though... you could learn everything and maybe find a passion, but man...

How am I even supposed to find the headspace to actually critique my physics experiments when I'm stuck drowning in textbooks about Abraham Lincoln, trying to memorize the US GDP, and reading endless stuff about the Romans... seriously...

Sean Cruz said:School principals are mostly micromanaged by the Department of Education, which trickles down to the teachers. That’s just how it works here, according to sources I trust. Essentially, if you want to keep your job, be grateful you have a paycheck, stay quiet, and get to work. That’s the reality. Even when specialized schools receive donations, the Department decides how to distribute those funds at their own discretion. I’m not sure if you remember that case involving the school for the visually impaired. The principal received a donation from a Frenchwoman specifically intended to buy a van for student transport. He fought for over a year to access those funds, only for the Department to decide they didn't actually need a van and refused to release the money. Eventually, the woman requested her money back since it wouldn't be used for its intended purpose. They bought the van in the end, but the principal lost his job. You see similar patterns in almost every other school.

Don't worry, I won't go picking a fight with the shaman. 🤣

Well, the future is already manifesting in our "now"... and it isn't looking pretty. It's something we should be changing for the sake of what's to come.

My father shared a sobering thought with me recently: my generation might very well be the last one before humanity fades out. The little "robots" following us will largely be indoctrinated with various ideologies, and through them, true humanity will perish. It's not far from the truth—we can see it right now in our own backyard through things like religious segregation in public schools and such. I won't dwell on the darkest examples from our recent history...

It’s such a shame. I know they’re often under immense pressure, and that deviating from the Department's "recommendations"—though let's be honest, they're actually mandates—can cost them their careers. But, thank goodness there are still people out there who try, despite everything... In the meantime, the kids are always happiest when there's no school!

Sean Cruz said:School principals are mostly micromanaged by the Department of Education, which trickles down to the teachers. That’s just how it works here, according to sources I trust. Essentially, if you want to keep your job, be grateful you have a paycheck, stay quiet, and get to work. That’s the reality. Even when specialized schools receive donations, the Department decides how to distribute those funds at their own discretion. I’m not sure if you remember that case involving the school for the visually impaired. The principal received a donation from a Frenchwoman specifically intended to buy a van for student transport. He fought for over a year to access those funds, only for the Department to decide they didn't actually need a van and refused to release the money. Eventually, the woman requested her money back since it wouldn't be used for its intended purpose. They bought the van in the end, but the principal lost his job. You see similar patterns in almost every other school.

Don't worry, I won't go picking a fight with the shaman. 🤣

Well, the future is already manifesting in our "now"... and it isn't looking pretty. It's something we should be changing for the sake of what's to come.

My father shared a sobering thought with me recently: my generation might very well be the last one before humanity fades out. The little "robots" following us will largely be indoctrinated with various ideologies, and through them, true humanity will perish. It's not far from the truth—we can see it right now in our own backyard through things like religious segregation in public schools and such. I won't dwell on the darkest examples from our recent history...

Now you've actually reminded me of those poems found in the prologue and at the end of the book "elementary particle," so if you ever get the chance, you really should read them (they're quite long, and if I tried to type them all out here, I'd be here forever, but here is just a snippet...) and they actually offer a sense of hope, which is almost the exact opposite of what you're feeling:

... And so today we can listen to that tale of the materialistic age
As an old story about people.
It is a sorrowful tale, yet it won't truly grieve us
Because we no longer resemble those people.
Though we grew from their bodies and their desires, we cast aside
Their divisions and their loyalties
We never knew their joys, nor were we acquainted with their pains,
We cast them off with indifference
And without any effort
Their world of death.
Those centuries of pain are our heritage,
Today we can pull them from oblivion
Something like a second parting has occurred,
And now we have the right to live our own lives.

🙂

p.s. personally, I'm much more terrified of those robots in business suits, looking as though humanity died out a long time ago.

Olivia Evans8 said:

Wait, are we really talking about servantes? Like, the actual concept? Because if we are... oh man... that opens up such a massive rabbit hole! I honestly could go on about this for hours... just thinking about how it all ties together... it's wild! Seriously though, let's dive in... kaže:
Man, I still remember back in '66 when I started first grade... we spent the entire year just grinding away at uppercase and lowercase letters. That was it! Just ABCs all day long...

When I say logic, I’m not talking about some boring math equation, okay? I mean the actual game of it! You gotta use simple little games to show them basic concepts first. Then, you slowly layer on the complexity, getting more and more precise until they finally land on the actual definition. Because honestly, what is a kid even going to do with a textbook definition? My brother was stuck in third grade being forced to memorize these super technical definitions for things like "media," "television," and "the TV set." Like, seriously? Do you even know the difference between a television and the concept of television? By the time you're 30 or 40, sure, you get it. But at nine years old? It’s just exhausting... and totally boring...

So, think about it... from elementary all the way through high school, they basically throw a massive pile of subjects at you, just hoping one of them actually sticks. But honestly, is that even the right way to do things? Ever since my freshman year, I knew math was the only thing that actually clicked for me. Everything else? Total snooze fest. But I still had to grind out those grades and waste so much precious time mastering stuff I’m probably never going to use in the real world. It feels like such a waste... I know so many bright people who totally burned out trying to chase this "well-rounded education" dream, and because of that, they ended up way less prepared for the careers they actually love. It's such a double-edged sword, though... you could learn everything and maybe find a passion, but man...

How am I even supposed to find the headspace to actually critique my physics experiments when I'm stuck drowning in textbooks about Abraham Lincoln, trying to memorize the US GDP, and reading endless stuff about the Romans... seriously...

🙂 Yeah, and that's exactly the heart of the issue—it feels imposed on you, like you have no choice but to comply. I don't know, I suspect there must be different educational models out there somewhere that start from a completely different premise and actually pay attention to a child's specific needs and interests. I've heard from some friends of mine living in Sweden that their kids actually look forward to going to school, almost like they're heading over to a friend's house or somewhere they genuinely enjoy being.

Olivia Evans8 said:

Wait, are we really talking about servantes? Like, the actual concept? Because if we are... oh man... that opens up such a massive rabbit hole! I honestly could go on about this for hours... just thinking about how it all ties together... it's wild! Seriously though, let's dive in... kaže:
Man, I still remember back in '66 when I started first grade... we spent the entire year just grinding away at uppercase and lowercase letters. That was it! Just ABCs all day long...

When I say logic, I’m not talking about some boring math equation, okay? I mean the actual game of it! You gotta use simple little games to show them basic concepts first. Then, you slowly layer on the complexity, getting more and more precise until they finally land on the actual definition. Because honestly, what is a kid even going to do with a textbook definition? My brother was stuck in third grade being forced to memorize these super technical definitions for things like "media," "television," and "the TV set." Like, seriously? Do you even know the difference between a television and the concept of television? By the time you're 30 or 40, sure, you get it. But at nine years old? It’s just exhausting... and totally boring...

So, think about it... from elementary all the way through high school, they basically throw a massive pile of subjects at you, just hoping one of them actually sticks. But honestly, is that even the right way to do things? Ever since my freshman year, I knew math was the only thing that actually clicked for me. Everything else? Total snooze fest. But I still had to grind out those grades and waste so much precious time mastering stuff I’m probably never going to use in the real world. It feels like such a waste... I know so many bright people who totally burned out trying to chase this "well-rounded education" dream, and because of that, they ended up way less prepared for the careers they actually love. It's such a double-edged sword, though... you could learn everything and maybe find a passion, but man...

How am I even supposed to find the headspace to actually critique my physics experiments when I'm stuck drowning in textbooks about Abraham Lincoln, trying to memorize the US GDP, and reading endless stuff about the Romans... seriously...

It’s a shame nobody else bothered to respond to my post except you.
The whole point is that our approach to education is fundamentally different from how today's younger generations are taught. On one hand, things used to be stricter—call it "brutal" if you want—but on the other, we weren't bogged down by a mountain of useless definitions or pressured by frustrated parents and a society trying to manufacture a "finished product" overnight. I know I might sound like one of those people claiming "the old days were better," but after surviving the grind of high school, I truly believe our elementary schools and my classical prep school—with all the Latin and Greek—were much better than what we have now.
For example, it surprised me that little Swedish kids don't learn a foreign language at all until the fourth grade. They don't start until something like our fifth grade. Interestingly enough, more than half of the Swedes speak perfect English.

Mark Torres14 said:It’s a shame nobody else bothered to respond to my post except you.
The whole point is that our approach to education is fundamentally different from how today's younger generations are taught. On one hand, things used to be stricter—call it "brutal" if you want—but on the other, we weren't bogged down by a mountain of useless definitions or pressured by frustrated parents and a society trying to manufacture a "finished product" overnight. I know I might sound like one of those people claiming "the old days were better," but after surviving the grind of high school, I truly believe our elementary schools and my classical prep school—with all the Latin and Greek—were much better than what we have now.
For example, it surprised me that little Swedish kids don't learn a foreign language at all until the fourth grade. They don't start until something like our fifth grade. Interestingly enough, more than half of the Swedes speak perfect English.

I don't think that's all that surprising, honestly, especially when you consider that both English and Swedish are Germanic languages. They share so many common word roots, and since the syntax isn't drastically different, I imagine a Swede wouldn't have much trouble picking up English.

steelridge58 said:It’s such a shame. I know they’re often under immense pressure, and that deviating from the Department's "recommendations"—though let's be honest, they're actually mandates—can cost them their careers. But, thank goodness there are still people out there who try, despite everything... In the meantime, the kids are always happiest when there's no school!

Now you've actually reminded me of those poems found in the prologue and at the end of the book "elementary particle," so if you ever get the chance, you really should read them (they're quite long, and if I tried to type them all out here, I'd be here forever, but here is just a snippet...) and they actually offer a sense of hope, which is almost the exact opposite of what you're feeling:

... And so today we can listen to that tale of the materialistic age
As an old story about people.
It is a sorrowful tale, yet it won't truly grieve us
Because we no longer resemble those people.
Though we grew from their bodies and their desires, we cast aside
Their divisions and their loyalties
We never knew their joys, nor were we acquainted with their pains,
We cast them off with indifference
And without any effort
Their world of death.
Those centuries of pain are our heritage,
Today we can pull them from oblivion
Something like a second parting has occurred,
And now we have the right to live our own lives.

🙂

p.s. personally, I'm much more terrified of those robots in business suits, looking as though humanity died out a long time ago.

Exactly. 😁 My daughter once wrote in an English assignment that she loves playing with her friends because it's fun, but she hates school because it's boring. 🤣

You've reminded me of the poems at the start and end of "Mažuranić"... wait, no, the book "elementary particle". If you get the chance, read them (they are too long to post here, but here is one excerpt...) which offer a glimmer of hope, quite the opposite:

... And so today we can listen to that tale of the materialistic age
Like an old story about people.
It is a sad story, yet it won't truly sadden us
Because we no longer resemble those people.
Though grown from their bodies and desires, we have cast off
Their divisions and affiliations
We haven't known their joys nor are we acquainted with their pains,
We cast them aside with indifference
And without any effort
Their world of death.
Those centuries of pain are our heritage,
Today we can pull from oblivion
Something akin to a second parting,
And now we have the right to live our own lives.

🙂

I haven't read that book, but I'll look for it. Perhaps it will provide a small dose of hope. 🙂

p.s. personally, I'm more terrified of those robots in lab coats, looking as if humanity died out long ago.

They are a whole other issue entirely.

mistyscout2 said:I don't think that's all that surprising, honestly, especially when you consider that both English and Swedish are Germanic languages. They share so many common word roots, and since the syntax isn't drastically different, I imagine a Swede wouldn't have much trouble picking up English.

I'm with you on that. But look, American and Russian are both Slavic languages and share plenty of roots too, yet you still have to actually sit down and learn it.

Mark Torres14 said:I'm with you on that. But look, American and Russian are both Slavic languages and share plenty of roots too, yet you still have to actually sit down and learn it.

Trust me, it isn't nearly as hard as people make it out to be. I picked up the basics of Russian in no time at all, mostly because I was translating Persian using a Persian-Russian dictionary—back when there wasn't a single better resource available. When you're forced to learn quickly, picking up the fundamentals of a related language becomes much easier.

Sean Cruz said:Exactly. 😁 My daughter once wrote in an English assignment that she loves playing with her friends because it's fun, but she hates school because it's boring. 🤣

You've reminded me of the poems at the start and end of "Mažuranić"... wait, no, the book "elementary particle". If you get the chance, read them (they are too long to post here, but here is one excerpt...) which offer a glimmer of hope, quite the opposite:

... And so today we can listen to that tale of the materialistic age
Like an old story about people.
It is a sad story, yet it won't truly sadden us
Because we no longer resemble those people.
Though grown from their bodies and desires, we have cast off
Their divisions and affiliations
We haven't known their joys nor are we acquainted with their pains,
We cast them aside with indifference
And without any effort
Their world of death.
Those centuries of pain are our heritage,
Today we can pull from oblivion
Something akin to a second parting,
And now we have the right to live our own lives.

🙂

I haven't read that book, but I'll look for it. Perhaps it will provide a small dose of hope. 🙂

p.s. personally, I'm more terrified of those robots in lab coats, looking as if humanity died out long ago.

They are a whole other issue entirely.

Man, if you think those folks are something else, just wait until you realize the book itself is its own thing, and don't even get me started on the poems... they are really something else entirely. 🙂

steelridge58 said:Man, if you think those folks are something else, just wait until you realize the book itself is its own thing, and don't even get me started on the poems... they are really something else entirely. 🙂

In that case, I need to grab a copy immediately. Even if a day had 36 hours, it still wouldn't be enough time to get through my reading list. Thanks for the tip. 🙂

I guess our schools just don't focus enough on actually applying what you learn to real-world scenarios. It’s more about rote memorization than actual critical thinking, I suppose. You can't really foster the kind of minds needed for serious scientific advancement if they aren't taught how to think.

Another issue, maybe, is this collective delusion where we convince ourselves we're incredibly brilliant and don't actually need a robust education system. We tell ourselves that because some outlier always wins a global coding competition or makes a breakthrough in genetic sequencing, we're doing fine. But then those people come back home, and they just face constant criticism. Our school system... well, while it might not completely crush a true genius—though it certainly tries its best in that regard—it tends to stifle the average student, or even the bright ones. Instead of becoming top-tier scientists, they end up as mere assistants, professors, or high school teachers. A truly great school system, like they have in Finland, seems to work hard even with the most difficult students; that's probably why about 69% of their youth go on to university and finish. Here, I think only about 10% of people the same age reach that level. And within that group, maybe 7% are elite, whereas we might only see 2%. So, I guess we end up with 3.5 times fewer elites and seven times fewer highly educated professionals to actually drive a "knowledge economy." 😁

They have roughly 20 universities and 29 technical colleges per capita. And us? We just have Washington, D.C., Cleveland, Indianapolis, Miami, San Diego, and Key West.

http://www.transworldeducation.com/europe/nfineduc.htm

The worst part, I suppose, is that they achieved all of this in just the last twenty years or so. We could have been right there with them if we had started moving in that direction back in 1990. They basically excel at the same things we do—working with raw materials, paper, design, tech—but they also managed to incorporate a bit of California's tourism, Denmark's approach to human rights and food production, and Ireland's success in IT services and foreign investment. We didn't have to be quite so frugal like they were, because every year, tourists pour money into our coastal areas simply because the scenery is beautiful, without us having to lift a finger. But, I guess, we just lacked the will to think. 😵

It all starts with education, but instead, we have people making foolish decisions for the sake of pennies. 😍

Mark Torres14 said:I'm with you on that. But look, American and Russian are both Slavic languages and share plenty of roots too, yet you still have to actually sit down and learn it.

Well, I suppose a Swede has to learn English too, right? 😉But I think I get what you’re getting at—that it requires more effort. Personally, I don't think it's necessarily a much bigger hurdle. It really just comes down to how motivated you are, if you actually love the language, how much you'�re exposed to it, and how intensely you use it. For instance, most people from the Midwest or the South wouldn't understand a lick of Canadian, whereas to me, Canadian feels almost like my mother tongue. I mean, not quite right this second since I'm not hearing it much lately, but I remember years ago when I used to watch a lot of movies on TV—specifically from Canada—that if I wasn't paying close attention, I could hardly tell if I was watching an American or a Canadian program. That said, you can't exactly say the languages are *that* similar (like maybe certain dialects within the US). At the end of the day, it's mostly just a matter of habit.

Sean Cruz said:@Nepostojeći: Reading your take, I’d say things aren't all that different here, except for the whole affirmative action policy issue, which really feels like the icing on a very bitter cake. That said, I’m not one for sweeping generalizations. You’re starting to sound a bit like lastan with those broad strokes about patriots. 😁
I honestly have no clue how things operate on your side of the pond, but over here, watching old cartoons on Disney+ is a much better bedtime story than the reality of our education system.
To give you an idea of what I mean by the state of our schools:



I should probably add—rest his soul. 😁

🙄Did I not emphasize enough that I am strictly speaking from my own experience? 😉
I truly hope that things are different in Washington, D.C., Mexico City, Ottawa... maybe I neglected to mention that, statistically speaking, only half of those who enroll actually finish their degree—and of those, maybe a third or a quarter find work in their field. This means it's not just a matter of having plenty of capable and "driven" Americans; unfortunately, even some of them won't manage to land a job in their profession.

Admittedly, I have no clue how things work in your neck of the woods, but over here, Fear on Brijestov Street is practically a bedtime story compared to the actual state of our education system.

I hold out hope for better times, but they aren't coming as long as society (all of US!)—and consequently, the government—fails to recognize just how vital educators are for long-term economic stability, civic awareness, environmental consciousness, entrepreneurship, and so on. (Education, indirectly, touches everything, of course). We need to start acting accordingly.

Olivia Evans8 said:

Wait, are we really talking about servantes? Like, the actual concept? Because if we are... oh man... that opens up such a massive rabbit hole! I honestly could go on about this for hours... just thinking about how it all ties together... it's wild! Seriously though, let's dive in... kaže:
Man, I still remember back in '66 when I started first grade... we spent the entire year just grinding away at uppercase and lowercase letters. That was it! Just ABCs all day long...

When I say logic, I’m not talking about some boring math equation, okay? I mean the actual game of it! You gotta use simple little games to show them basic concepts first. Then, you slowly layer on the complexity, getting more and more precise until they finally land on the actual definition. Because honestly, what is a kid even going to do with a textbook definition? My brother was stuck in third grade being forced to memorize these super technical definitions for things like "media," "television," and "the TV set." Like, seriously? Do you even know the difference between a television and the concept of television? By the time you're 30 or 40, sure, you get it. But at nine years old? It’s just exhausting... and totally boring...

So, think about it... from elementary all the way through high school, they basically throw a massive pile of subjects at you, just hoping one of them actually sticks. But honestly, is that even the right way to do things? Ever since my freshman year, I knew math was the only thing that actually clicked for me. Everything else? Total snooze fest. But I still had to grind out those grades and waste so much precious time mastering stuff I’m probably never going to use in the real world. It feels like such a waste... I know so many bright people who totally burned out trying to chase this "well-rounded education" dream, and because of that, they ended up way less prepared for the careers they actually love. It's such a double-edged sword, though... you could learn everything and maybe find a passion, but man...

How am I even supposed to find the headspace to actually critique my physics experiments when I'm stuck drowning in textbooks about Abraham Lincoln, trying to memorize the US GDP, and reading endless stuff about the Romans... seriously...

Man, I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with you.

Furthermore, through elementary and high school, they throw a massive pile of subjects at you in the hope that one might actually stick. But is that really the right way to do things? Ever since freshman year of high school, I knew nothing but math would ever interest me—yet I still had to maintain my GPA, wasting precious time mastering things I was never going to use. I know plenty of bright kids who wasted their potential on this "well-rounded education" nonsense, leaving them significantly less capable of pursuing the one field they actually love. It's a double-edged sword: you learn everything just in case something catches your eye.

How am I supposed to find the time to critically analyze physics experiments when I'm forced to memorize Mažuranić, the US GDP, or random facts about the Romans?

You certainly have a point there. However, how are kids supposed to choose a career if they aren't even aware of what professions exist in the first place?
That's why subject selection starts in high school (thankfully) and becomes much more focused in college.

Mind you, in my case, it's a single major. Computer science students end up taking sociology, intro to philosophy, physics, and all sorts of similar nonsense—mostly because there aren't enough specialized courses, so they try to "fill the gaps."🙄 It's ridiculous. I'm not saying that knowledge isn't beautiful, but if someone enrolled to study CS, it's unlikely they'll care about those topics, and they certainly won't ever need them in their professional life.😁
(Personally, I find all of it interesting, so I educate myself outside of class—for instance, right here on this forum, haha. I'll likely end up being more broadly educated, even if it makes me a slightly less efficient computer scientist.😁)

mistyscout2 said:Well, I suppose a Swede has to learn English too, right? 😉But I think I get what you’re getting at—that it requires more effort. Personally, I don't think it's necessarily a much bigger hurdle. It really just comes down to how motivated you are, if you actually love the language, how much you'�re exposed to it, and how intensely you use it. For instance, most people from the Midwest or the South wouldn't understand a lick of Canadian, whereas to me, Canadian feels almost like my mother tongue. I mean, not quite right this second since I'm not hearing it much lately, but I remember years ago when I used to watch a lot of movies on TV—specifically from Canada—that if I wasn't paying close attention, I could hardly tell if I was watching an American or a Canadian program. That said, you can't exactly say the languages are *that* similar (like maybe certain dialects within the US). At the end of the day, it's mostly just a matter of habit.

Fine. You and Soul are both right. But I wasn't bringing up language just for the sake of linguistics or how easy it is to pick up. It was just a comparison. In the US, kids start learning foreign languages in preschool. In Sweden, they don't start until they're ten. Why? Is the Swedish school system more primitive than ours, or are our kids just geniuses compared to theirs?😁
We're talking about the education system here, aren't we?🤷

By the way, back when I was in college, I used to "translate" for a buddy of mine from Indianapolis who was studying literature in the "Group"

Zachary Turner6 said:Man, I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with you.

Furthermore, through elementary and high school, they throw a massive pile of subjects at you in the hope that one might actually stick. But is that really the right way to do things? Ever since freshman year of high school, I knew nothing but math would ever interest me—yet I still had to maintain my GPA, wasting precious time mastering things I was never going to use. I know plenty of bright kids who wasted their potential on this "well-rounded education" nonsense, leaving them significantly less capable of pursuing the one field they actually love. It's a double-edged sword: you learn everything just in case something catches your eye.

How am I supposed to find the time to critically analyze physics experiments when I'm forced to memorize Mažuranić, the US GDP, or random facts about the Romans?

You certainly have a point there. However, how are kids supposed to choose a career if they aren't even aware of what professions exist in the first place?
That's why subject selection starts in high school (thankfully) and becomes much more focused in college.

Mind you, in my case, it's a single major. Computer science students end up taking sociology, intro to philosophy, physics, and all sorts of similar nonsense—mostly because there aren't enough specialized courses, so they try to "fill the gaps."🙄 It's ridiculous. I'm not saying that knowledge isn't beautiful, but if someone enrolled to study CS, it's unlikely they'll care about those topics, and they certainly won't ever need them in their professional life.😁
(Personally, I find all of it interesting, so I educate myself outside of class—for instance, right here on this forum, haha. I'll likely end up being more broadly educated, even if it makes me a slightly less efficient computer scientist.😁)

It feels like😉, looking through your posts in this thread, there's this underlying misunderstanding that you keep trying to pin on everyone else.
You could really use a little logic to see the contradiction in what you're saying and realize how much you actually need to weed out the idiots.
I mean, don't you see you're just walking in circles here?

Furthermore, I totally agree that we're lagging behind when it comes to implementing new educational methods based on what we actually know about cognitive science. Why? Probably because people prioritize political correctness, profit, or just nepotism over actual psycho-physical needs. (And obviously, I'm talking about the vibe prevalent in America and other non-liberal countries)
But honestly, things aren't as bleak as half these posts make it seem (some people are just going off-topic, so I'm ignoring them).
I think it'll be obvious enough to anyone who actually bothers to pick up the books listed below regarding the direction needed for real improvement, so I don't feel the need to keep typing out my opinions.

If anyone is still interested in this topic, I'd recommend two books:
Carla Hannaford - Smart movement (from a psychological perspective on childhood education);
Konrad Paul Liessmann - Konrad Paul Liessmann - theory - delusion society knowledge (it's a current, controversial, and brilliantly articulated critique of the whole "knowledge society" concept—that's basically what's on the cover; this book is at a university level).
That should give you a solid look into what "complete" formal education looks like, both through the first book and via your own self-education.

Peter Phillips32 said:It feels like😉, looking through your posts in this thread, there's this underlying misunderstanding that you keep trying to pin on everyone else.
You could really use a little logic to see the contradiction in what you're saying and realize how much you actually need to weed out the idiots.
I mean, don't you see you're just walking in circles here?

Furthermore, I totally agree that we're lagging behind when it comes to implementing new educational methods based on what we actually know about cognitive science. Why? Probably because people prioritize political correctness, profit, or just nepotism over actual psycho-physical needs. (And obviously, I'm talking about the vibe prevalent in America and other non-liberal countries)
But honestly, things aren't as bleak as half these posts make it seem (some people are just going off-topic, so I'm ignoring them).
I think it'll be obvious enough to anyone who actually bothers to pick up the books listed below regarding the direction needed for real improvement, so I don't feel the need to keep typing out my opinions.

If anyone is still interested in this topic, I'd recommend two books:
Carla Hannaford - Smart movement (from a psychological perspective on childhood education);
Konrad Paul Liessmann - Konrad Paul Liessmann - theory - delusion society knowledge (it's a current, controversial, and brilliantly articulated critique of the whole "knowledge society" concept—that's basically what's on the cover; this book is at a university level).
That should give you a solid look into what "complete" formal education looks like, both through the first book and via your own self-education.

Look: I’m all for providing at least a basic foundation of a broad education, because frankly, society doesn't need more idiots. But the way people want to enforce it is just ridiculous. You can't force someone to learn something they have zero interest in; the real solution is to offer them choices and point out the actual benefits a well-rounded education provides.

Basic sociology (for example) is necessary for developing civic awareness—even for software engineers—but since most of us came from solid prep schools, we already have those basics down. We usually exceed the bare minimum (meaning a functional understanding of social phenomena and common sociological terms). Personally, I don't think it's strictly necessary for a programmer to be able to write a high-level paper comparing the frameworks of Max Weber and Emile Durkheim, pen two books on Marx, or memorize exactly which year Auguste Comte learned to walk.
The same logic applies to pretty much any other subject.

You seem to forget that kids (young adults) spend twelve years—eight in elementary and four in high school—soaking up "general knowledge." It’s essential to spend a few years just figuring things out before pivoting toward the specific skills they'll actually need for their careers. That’s what the last few years of college or vocational training are for. If we don't balance it, we'll end up with the exact opposite of the problem you're worried about (which is a valid concern, by the way): a mass of over-educated people who can solve any crossword puzzle and ace 90% of a TV quiz show, yet have absolutely no clue about their own profession—the very thing they'll rely on to put food on the table and the expertise that clients will depend on.
Furthermore, I agree that we're lagging behind when it comes to implementing new educational methods based on modern cognitive science. Why? Probably because people prioritize political correctness, profit margins, or nepotism over actual psycho-physical aptitude. (And yes, I'm referring to the general state of affairs in America and other non-liberal nations).
But the situation isn't quite as bleak as half these posts make it out to be (some are just off-topic, so let's not count them).
I believe it will be clear enough to anyone willing to pick up the books mentioned below regarding the direction needed for meaningful change, so I don't feel the need to go on rambling about my views.

Edward Flores4 said:Publishers basically send out these sales reps to woo teachers—they drop off little gifts, sponsor all these weekend trips... it’s a whole production. And then, once they’ve built that rapport, the teachers are the ones actually deciding which textbooks our kids end up using. 😉

It’s totally true, they send over little gifts right before the book orders roll in, or stuff for Christmas, I’ve even heard people say they’re getting laptops now... though apparently, the religion teachers are the only ones left out because they only have one publisher to work with so there isn't any competition, poor things😁... but honestly, if I’m being real, you can see so many changes happening in elementary schools lately, I have a kid in grade school now and I had one ten years ago too, and there is just so much more hands-on work being done with the students, like them actually working through lessons themselves in groups, and so much more field trips for subjects that allow for it, it’s definitely not like the old days where it was just mindless rote memorization of data under the HNOS system

Zachary Turner6 said:🙄Did I not emphasize enough that I am strictly speaking from my own experience? 😉
I truly hope that things are different in Washington, D.C., Mexico City, Ottawa... maybe I neglected to mention that, statistically speaking, only half of those who enroll actually finish their degree—and of those, maybe a third or a quarter find work in their field. This means it's not just a matter of having plenty of capable and "driven" Americans; unfortunately, even some of them won't manage to land a job in their profession.

Admittedly, I have no clue how things work in your neck of the woods, but over here, Fear on Brijestov Street is practically a bedtime story compared to the actual state of our education system.

I hold out hope for better times, but they aren't coming as long as society (all of US!)—and consequently, the government—fails to recognize just how vital educators are for long-term economic stability, civic awareness, environmental consciousness, entrepreneurship, and so on. (Education, indirectly, touches everything, of course). We need to start acting accordingly.

Man, what a blow to the male ego. 😍

I sincerely hope that things are different in New York, Chicago, or even Ottawa. Perhaps I neglected to mention the reality of the numbers: statistically speaking, only about half of the students who enroll actually graduate. Of those graduates, maybe a third or a quarter will actually land a job in their field. This means that while there is certainly no shortage of talented and driven Americans out there, the unfortunate truth is that some simply won't find work in their profession.

In Ottawa, you don't even see a quarter of the students actually finish their degrees, and honestly, I won't even get into the rest of the statistics. I agree that plenty of talented, capable people can't find work—it’s all about who you know or how deep your pockets are. It comes down to connections and political ties. In this country, actual knowledge and skill rarely matter.

I’m holding out hope for better days ahead.But she isn't going to show up until society—all of us—demands it. Right now, our leaders aren't acknowledging how vital educators are to long-term economic growth, civic engagement, environmental awareness, or even entrepreneurship. Education is the backbone of all those things, yet the government refuses to act accordingly. Until we start treating the teaching profession with the weight it deserves, nothing changes.

I used to be an optimist, but lately, I’ve found myself drifting toward a darker outlook. Honestly, I’m hoping someone can talk me out of my pessimism regarding one specific question: where to turn in this world?