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Killing an elephant

Started by Mark Torres14 · · 👁 6 views · 76 replies

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Participants Mark Torres14Drew Morganhollowtinker18Michael Anderson2placidrangerrustymaker5Edward Flores4casualwolf12dustyskipper3hollowpuma762Laura BishopAlexander Evans4Dennis Rogers6mistyscout2Richard Williams7analogsurfer15
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 Regular
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#61 ·
Mark Torres14 said:Quincy : Vance

Following your logic here.
If idiots actually have the power and the money, then the world of idiots is the only reality that matters. They managed to grab both. "Our world" (the non-idiots) is just a fantasy based on ideals. It has zero connection to the actual world run by idiots.
The real question is: can you sit on both sides? Can you actually hold onto power and money while keeping your imagination and principles intact?😉

I mean, it's pretty obvious, isn't it? The world is basically run by empty-headed, overly ambitious morons who would happily sell their own mothers for a single barrel of oil or a shipping container full of weapons.🙄

"Our world" (the world of people who aren't idiots) is built on imagination and desire—it really has nothing to do with the "real" world (the one run by idiots).

But as long as those "non-idiots" are forced to live inside the world created by the "idiots"—we're absolutely tethered to them!

The real question is: can you actually sit on two different chairs at once? Can you possess power and wealth while still holding onto your imagination and your desires?

That's not quite the right way to look at it.

All we really need to do is for the "non-idiots" to simply stop cooperating with the "idiots." See, the problem is that those guys can barely calculate the square root of their own IQ, let alone maintain any kind of power without leaning on the help of the "non-idiots."

The idiots aren't actually the ones at fault... the fault lies with us for letting them get into this position in the first place.😉
hollowtinker18 hollowtinker18 Active Member
120 messages
joined Sep 2011
#62 ·
Edward Flores4 said:I mean, it's pretty obvious, isn't it? The world is basically run by empty-headed, overly ambitious morons who would happily sell their own mothers for a single barrel of oil or a shipping container full of weapons.🙄

"Our world" (the world of people who aren't idiots) is built on imagination and desire—it really has nothing to do with the "real" world (the one run by idiots).

But as long as those "non-idiots" are forced to live inside the world created by the "idiots"—we're absolutely tethered to them!

The real question is: can you actually sit on two different chairs at once? Can you possess power and wealth while still holding onto your imagination and your desires?

That's not quite the right way to look at it.

All we really need to do is for the "non-idiots" to simply stop cooperating with the "idiots." See, the problem is that those guys can barely calculate the square root of their own IQ, let alone maintain any kind of power without leaning on the help of the "non-idiots."

The idiots aren't actually the ones at fault... the fault lies with us for letting them get into this position in the first place.😉


With all due respect, I'm curious who this "we" actually refers to... and what kind of leverage we actually have to block their stupidity if... ?

Best,
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 Regular
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#63 ·
hollowtinker18 said:With all due respect, I'm curious who this "we" actually refers to... and what kind of leverage we actually have to block their stupidity if... ?

Best,

Don't sweat it too much... whoever they're referring to will know exactly who it is. 🙂

Quincy:
...and what kind of ways could they have been blocked from their idiotic antics, if...?
Look, I didn't say we could actually stop "them"... I’m just saying it’s high time we step up, take some responsibility, and quit holding our breath waiting for idiots to suddenly start acting like reasonable, productive adults.

Honestly, it’s an ethical obligation for those of us who actually know what we're doing—we can't just let the incompetent run the show. Knowledge comes with a certain level of duty, you know? And let's face it, idiots are inherently irresponsible.
hollowtinker18 hollowtinker18 Active Member
120 messages
joined Sep 2011
#64 ·
The biggest, most incompetent hypocrites are all sitting right there in Congress. Their debt—even just the interest—is growing at light speed because they’re so damn "efficient" at doing absolutely nothing. Just constantly bowing down to Brussels.👎
hollowpuma762 hollowpuma762 Active Member
190 messages
joined Feb 2015
#65 ·
Drew Morgan said:The vibe is frantic. Kids are being raised on high-octane, hyper-speed media.

But to them, that’s just standard cruising speed. It only feels "fast" to you because you're stuck in the slow lane.
So... what do you think is actually driving that?
hollowpuma762 hollowpuma762 Active Member
190 messages
joined Feb 2015
#66 ·
Mark Torres14 said:It's because this modern lifestyle—where everyone has the so-called "freedom" to own and enjoy everything that used to be reserved strictly for royalty—creates one unavoidable side effect: superficiality.

Who’s going to bother reading when you can get the same thing served up in instant pictures and soundbites? Who’s going to use their imagination when you can just buy a fantasy at any convenience store? Honestly, if we keep going down this road, who’s even going to have kids when you could just rent a surrogate to do the work for you?🙂😉😁

I really doubt that a kid thinking a book is "slow" is actually a sign of being shallow.

Multimedia can actually offer a deeper insight in much less time. Honestly? It's often more precise, way more engaging, and easier to actually remember.

Being superficial is really just about what you care about and what you choose to focus on.
I highly doubt it’s any more prevalent in the "literary" crowd than anywhere else.
Michael Anderson2 Michael Anderson2 Active Member
77 messages
joined Jul 2013
#67 ·
Edward Flores4 said:Don't sweat it too much... whoever they're referring to will know exactly who it is. 🙂

Quincy:
...and what kind of ways could they have been blocked from their idiotic antics, if...?
Look, I didn't say we could actually stop "them"... I’m just saying it’s high time we step up, take some responsibility, and quit holding our breath waiting for idiots to suddenly start acting like reasonable, productive adults.

Honestly, it’s an ethical obligation for those of us who actually know what we're doing—we can't just let the incompetent run the show. Knowledge comes with a certain level of duty, you know? And let's face it, idiots are inherently irresponsible.

Have you ever actually tried getting involved in politics at any level? I have—and let me tell you, the people holding office, regardless of their rank, can be just about anything except incompetent. In fact, they’re often incredibly talented at the specific traits democracy seems to reward most: sycophancy, bullying, manipulation, scheming, gaslighting, bribery, forming alliances with like-minded cronies only to betray them later, brown-nosing, and the list goes on. I wouldn't call these people idiots—I have a much different definition for "idiot"—but that’s a conversation for another time.

The real question is why democracy consistently brings these specific types of characters to the surface. Are we blaming the players when the game itself is rigged? Or is this just a unique problem here in America? Personally, I think democracy is a fundamentally flawed way to govern.
Alexander Evans4 Alexander Evans4 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jun 2009
#68 ·
Edward Flores4 said:Don't sweat it too much... whoever they're referring to will know exactly who it is. 🙂

Quincy:
...and what kind of ways could they have been blocked from their idiotic antics, if...?
Look, I didn't say we could actually stop "them"... I’m just saying it’s high time we step up, take some responsibility, and quit holding our breath waiting for idiots to suddenly start acting like reasonable, productive adults.

Honestly, it’s an ethical obligation for those of us who actually know what we're doing—we can't just let the incompetent run the show. Knowledge comes with a certain level of duty, you know? And let's face it, idiots are inherently irresponsible.

What exactly do you mean by "ability"? Look, I'm not defending these ruling morons, but claiming they lack the capacity to survive is just naive. Running the world takes a certain kind of skill. That's a separate issue from ethics. This whole mess was brought on by the principle of free competition, which practically demands ruthlessness and a total lack of empathy. If the non-idiots can't fit into that logic, well, that's their problem.
Alexander Evans4 Alexander Evans4 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jun 2009
#69 ·
Mark Torres14 said:I guess so. A few of my buddies and old classmates run their own businesses. Most of them are loaded, but they’re still dreaming about actually taking a real vacation.

So, what's your take—has technology made our lives easier, or just made us slaves to it?

I honestly don't know if anything in the real world can help a person if they aren't willing to be helped. It’s the same deal with religion. Since the dawn of time, people have been praying to all sorts of gods, yet the more they pray, the worse they seem to get. Absurd, isn't it? To be blunt, I think it's the exact same thing with technology. In fact, the more advanced it gets, the more it seems to rot the human brain. Back when I was using a landline, I had a massive amount of phone numbers memorized. Nowadays, thanks to smartphones, hardly anyone knows anything. We gained something on one hand, but we lost it on the other. Ask yourself this: how many of these "technologically superior" people would actually survive a planetary catastrophe? I'd say very few. They’d starve almost immediately because their entire support system would vanish. You win some, you lose some.
Alexander Evans4 Alexander Evans4 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jun 2009
#70 ·
Necessity drives tech forward, but the fallout? That’s where the real misuse begins.
Nowadays, it seems we’re way more obsessed with peddling the latest iPhone or beefing up cell towers than actually making sure we don't wipe out the honeybees.
dustyskipper3 dustyskipper3 Active Member
192 messages
joined Dec 2009
#71 ·
Michael Anderson2 said:I have to weigh in here again. To be honest, I’ve noticed that same superficiality in myself, and certainly in my kids. We are being absolutely flooded by a constant stream of information and content; there just isn't any breathing room to actually engage with anything deeply. There is too much noise, and before you can even process one thing, the next thing has already hit you. You lose interest because you simply don't have the time. We aren't really living in the present anymore—we're just bouncing between past data and future plans.

My kids finish one video game and immediately jump to the next, then onto music, Skype, soccer, music videos, skateboarding, social media... they flip through a hundred channels on the TV, grab a quick pizza, and barely even take the time to eat properly.🙄

The other day, I was listening to Bach—specifically his work with organs. I accidentally put the wrong CD in, but once it started playing, I figured I might as well give it a listen. As the piece progressed, I got this sense of playfulness, almost as if Bach himself were playing with the organ pipes—up, down, shifting tones, acting almost like a child at play. It’s as if he’s playing with church organs.

It’s the behavior of a child whose father was an organist. After losing his parent at ten years old, he moved in with his older brother, Johann Christoph Bach (1671-1721), who was also an organist. Of course he’s going to play with organs—what else was there to do in a 17th-century church? He didn't have many options. And given his natural talent, it's no surprise he mastered those instruments completely.

The point of this story is: what are our children going to become? They will become whatever they spend their time playing with. In our case, it's everything and anything, done quickly and shallowly. They have no time. Are we raising a generation of superficial shells? I’d be curious to hear about the experiences in the United States, which is certainly ahead of us in these matters.

Edit:
Toccata and Fugue in D minor! 😬

It took Bach a lifetime to master those organs, but in doing so, he expressed his free will. The systems used for composition back then—polyphony, harmony, progressions, all that—they seemed to align perfectly with his own internal informational entropy as a human being. Even now, when we listen to Bach, it feels like he "pulls" us into his world. We can't always see the foundation upon which he built the music, because it contains more information than we are capable of processing through just a few octaves of a single organ.

Kids on the internet and their phones, downloading games and scrolling endlessly through Facebook... they are in the same position we are in when we listen to Bach. They are pulled into the "game" as passive players by a system whose informational entropy is far greater than their own. The difference, though, is that the information filling them up via the internet isn't the stuff Bach or Mozart would provide; it's mostly, well, junk. Pornography, lies, nonsense... that sort of thing. Here, entropy isn't achieved through quality or organized thought, but through sheer quantity of low-quality noise. But it's still enough to drown an ordinary human mind, to strip away its "free will" and sink it into the Matrix. Apparently, in the US, they try to teach kids in school how to pick out quality content—the top 10%—and distinguish it from the 90% of garbage online, but in my opinion, that's not something you can really teach. Simply put, this bombardment of information leads to a "Brave New World"—a society split into alphas, betas, gammas, deltas, and epsilons; managers, programmers, admins, consumers, and the laborers who just surf porn sites and work as cashiers at a local grocery store. 😬

Quincy:
Have you ever actually tried getting involved in politics at any level? I suppose I have, and I can tell you that people holding positions at any stage... well, they can be anything, really, but I wouldn't call them incompetent. In fact, if I’m being honest, you might even say they are exceptionally talented at the specific traits that democracy seems to favor most: sycophancy, pushing agendas, manipulation, scheming, planting seeds, misrepresentation, bribery, forming alliances with similar types only to betray them later, sucking up to power, and so on... I won't even list them all. I wouldn't go so far as to call those people imbeciles—I think there are other people I'd call that, but maybe that's a different topic.

The question is, why does it seem like people with these exact traits always rise to the surface in a democracy? Is it possible we are blaming the players when the game itself is flawed? Or is this just a localized issue here in the States? Personally, I tend to think that democracy is an extremely inadequate form of governance.
It's also worth noting that maybe only about 13% of people (or perhaps even less) truly decide anything in politics. About a third are just resigned spectators, and then there's roughly half who act like sheep, being led by that 13% through various manipulations designed to toy with them and force them into submission. Democracy is a system where, in reality, about 10% of the people rule and manage things, while 50% live under the illusion that they have a say, and 40% know perfectly well they have no influence at all and just stay home. Actually, even under communism, there was only about 10% membership in the party, right? Except, I guess, those 50% didn't suffer from the illusion of choice, because, as Mark Torres14 already pointed out, in a communist system you could only choose between black bread or white bread—which most people can see is beneath their capacity for actual decision-making. But even though nowadays you have more varieties of bread, you still aren't the one deciding on that bread; you are just placed in the position of a passive consumer who can pick from a palette that someone else has already curated for you.

Does the development of a new version of Windows happen democratically, where even the most casual users are consulted? Or do Gates and his inner circle implement features based on the preferences of the massive corporations they partner with and who pay them? Even Linux and Open Source have limitations, since only those with specific technical know-how participate in its creation, which is once again just a small minority.

Otherwise, the idea that we should ask ordinary people what services they want and what they think, and then decide based on that, is probably a utopia. The "big players" simply have no need for such things. They just sweep the little people away like dust off a sideboard and move on.☕
Mark Torres14 Mark Torres14 RegularOP
279 messages
joined Nov 2008
#72 ·
dustyskipper3 said:It took Bach a lifetime to master those organs, but in doing so, he expressed his free will. The systems used for composition back then—polyphony, harmony, progressions, all that—they seemed to align perfectly with his own internal informational entropy as a human being. Even now, when we listen to Bach, it feels like he "pulls" us into his world. We can't always see the foundation upon which he built the music, because it contains more information than we are capable of processing through just a few octaves of a single organ.

Kids on the internet and their phones, downloading games and scrolling endlessly through Facebook... they are in the same position we are in when we listen to Bach. They are pulled into the "game" as passive players by a system whose informational entropy is far greater than their own. The difference, though, is that the information filling them up via the internet isn't the stuff Bach or Mozart would provide; it's mostly, well, junk. Pornography, lies, nonsense... that sort of thing. Here, entropy isn't achieved through quality or organized thought, but through sheer quantity of low-quality noise. But it's still enough to drown an ordinary human mind, to strip away its "free will" and sink it into the Matrix. Apparently, in the US, they try to teach kids in school how to pick out quality content—the top 10%—and distinguish it from the 90% of garbage online, but in my opinion, that's not something you can really teach. Simply put, this bombardment of information leads to a "Brave New World"—a society split into alphas, betas, gammas, deltas, and epsilons; managers, programmers, admins, consumers, and the laborers who just surf porn sites and work as cashiers at a local grocery store. 😬

Quincy:
Have you ever actually tried getting involved in politics at any level? I suppose I have, and I can tell you that people holding positions at any stage... well, they can be anything, really, but I wouldn't call them incompetent. In fact, if I’m being honest, you might even say they are exceptionally talented at the specific traits that democracy seems to favor most: sycophancy, pushing agendas, manipulation, scheming, planting seeds, misrepresentation, bribery, forming alliances with similar types only to betray them later, sucking up to power, and so on... I won't even list them all. I wouldn't go so far as to call those people imbeciles—I think there are other people I'd call that, but maybe that's a different topic.

The question is, why does it seem like people with these exact traits always rise to the surface in a democracy? Is it possible we are blaming the players when the game itself is flawed? Or is this just a localized issue here in the States? Personally, I tend to think that democracy is an extremely inadequate form of governance.
It's also worth noting that maybe only about 13% of people (or perhaps even less) truly decide anything in politics. About a third are just resigned spectators, and then there's roughly half who act like sheep, being led by that 13% through various manipulations designed to toy with them and force them into submission. Democracy is a system where, in reality, about 10% of the people rule and manage things, while 50% live under the illusion that they have a say, and 40% know perfectly well they have no influence at all and just stay home. Actually, even under communism, there was only about 10% membership in the party, right? Except, I guess, those 50% didn't suffer from the illusion of choice, because, as Mark Torres14 already pointed out, in a communist system you could only choose between black bread or white bread—which most people can see is beneath their capacity for actual decision-making. But even though nowadays you have more varieties of bread, you still aren't the one deciding on that bread; you are just placed in the position of a passive consumer who can pick from a palette that someone else has already curated for you.

Does the development of a new version of Windows happen democratically, where even the most casual users are consulted? Or do Gates and his inner circle implement features based on the preferences of the massive corporations they partner with and who pay them? Even Linux and Open Source have limitations, since only those with specific technical know-how participate in its creation, which is once again just a small minority.

Otherwise, the idea that we should ask ordinary people what services they want and what they think, and then decide based on that, is probably a utopia. The "big players" simply have no need for such things. They just sweep the little people away like dust off a sideboard and move on.☕

Imagine wasting your whole life on just one single thing. Gives me the creeps.
Total specialization. Maybe that's exactly why he actually managed to build something worth something?
I live for information. I crave it. For me, pure specialization is impossible. And maybe that's the reason I haven't created anything remotely comparable to Bach.
What really fascinates me—and why I even started this thread—is how things just hijack our existence. We eat when we aren't hungry, drink when we aren't thirsty, listen when we don't want to listen, sing when we don't feel like singing... it never ends. It's constant, massive consumption. My apartment alone needs its own damn power plant; fifty years ago, an entire small town in the Midwest would have used less electricity a month than I do right now.
Dennis Rogers6 Dennis Rogers6 Member
34 messages
joined Apr 2008
#73 ·
Mark Torres14 said:Imagine wasting your whole life on just one single thing. Gives me the creeps.
Total specialization. Maybe that's exactly why he actually managed to build something worth something?
I live for information. I crave it. For me, pure specialization is impossible. And maybe that's the reason I haven't created anything remotely comparable to Bach.
What really fascinates me—and why I even started this thread—is how things just hijack our existence. We eat when we aren't hungry, drink when we aren't thirsty, listen when we don't want to listen, sing when we don't feel like singing... it never ends. It's constant, massive consumption. My apartment alone needs its own damn power plant; fifty years ago, an entire small town in the Midwest would have used less electricity a month than I do right now.

I wouldn't go so far as to say his brilliance was born from that specific focus; I fail to see how obsessively refining a singular technique correlates to pure creative genius... And while we're on the subject of him...😍

Regarding this whole business of specialization 👍

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."

-Robert A. Heinlein
mistyscout2 mistyscout2 Active Member
197 messages
joined Feb 2007
#74 ·
"The things we own eventually start owning us"
Richard Williams7 Richard Williams7 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Jul 2009
#75 ·
Mark Torres14 said:I guess so. A few of my buddies and old classmates run their own businesses. Most of them are loaded, but they’re still dreaming about actually taking a real vacation.

So, what's your take—has technology made our lives easier, or just made us slaves to it?

Technology is basically just applied knowledge, so on paper, it should have made life easier. Maybe we’re just hardwired for self-destruction. That would explain why things aren't going as planned.
Mark Torres14 Mark Torres14 RegularOP
279 messages
joined Nov 2008
#76 ·
Every time I jump into a debate on this forum, I walk away feeling like a total amateur. It’s like I’m constantly unread and out of the loop when it comes to actual philosophy or specific schools of thought. Someone always drops a book title I’ve never heard of, cites an author I barely recognize, or calls my logic basic compared to, say, the way Žižek's sentences twist and turn to catch you off guard.
If you wanted to build a foundation today—something to read, watch, or listen to—so you could honestly call yourself an intellectual on the level of Ernest Hemingway, where would you even start?
Personally, no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get there.
Just when I think I’ve finally grasped something, some N'dugu or that quiet, spotted user shows up and shuts me right back down to earth.😍
analogsurfer15 analogsurfer15 Member
10 messages
joined Mar 2008
#77 ·
Mark Torres14 said:Every time I jump into a debate on this forum, I walk away feeling like a total amateur. It’s like I’m constantly unread and out of the loop when it comes to actual philosophy or specific schools of thought. Someone always drops a book title I’ve never heard of, cites an author I barely recognize, or calls my logic basic compared to, say, the way Žižek's sentences twist and turn to catch you off guard.
If you wanted to build a foundation today—something to read, watch, or listen to—so you could honestly call yourself an intellectual on the level of Ernest Hemingway, where would you even start?
Personally, no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get there.
Just when I think I’ve finally grasped something, some N'dugu or that quiet, spotted user shows up and shuts me right back down to earth.😍

🙏

That’s easy to say when life is comfortable. Just don't let them drop you in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness or some godforsaken desert where you can't even find enough scraps to boil a decent bowl of soup. Then you'd really get a taste of what it means to truly know nothing...😂

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