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Patriotism and Socialism

Started by Brian Gonzalez9 · · 👁 4 views · 15 replies

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Participants Brian Gonzalez9Edward Flores4hollowtinker18Casey Campbellelectricdriver93Sandra Wilson68Carl Anderson76Brenda Lopez5crimsonjackal63Steven Cooper13bluebison70
Brian Gonzalez9 Brian Gonzalez9 NewcomerOP
3 messages
joined Nov 2008
#1 ·
I’m not entirely sure which category this falls under, since it feels more like deep philosophical inquiry than mere politics 🤷.
If I’ve wandered into the wrong corner of the forum, would someone be so kind as to point me toward the right one?
Anyway, moving on... regarding my own ideology, I’m still trying to pin it down. I find myself drawn to patriotism—there’s something fundamentally right about respecting one's own country, people, and culture without harboring prejudices against anyone else—yet at the same time, I lean toward socialism (meaning we should all be equal, even if we’re all broke). So, is it actually possible to be both a patriot and a socialist simultaneously?? I would truly appreciate some clarity on this matter.
thanks.
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 Regular
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#2 ·
I honestly don't get how you expect to just pivot your entire worldview based on what everyone else thinks.

I mean, who even has the authority to sit there and decide whether someone can be both a patriot and a socialist at the same time?

Regardless, if we’re looking at this through a philosophical lens, you really can't be both. You can try to follow certain ideologies—if you absolutely have to—but calling discrimination against outsiders "patriotism" is just using Orwellian doublethink.

Personally, I’m not a fan of socialism, mostly because let's face it: we aren't all equal. To me, socialism acts as a shield for those who contribute nothing, while basically slapping hardworking people in the face by devaluing their effort under the guise of "equality." In my view, lazy people, the ignorant, the crude, and the aggressive *must* be properly identified and held accountable—that's the only way a society can actually be "fair."

And that brings us right back to the issue of patriotism and this weird concept of "respecting" the slackers, the fools, and the criminals just because we happen to share the same nationality. Real respect should be earned on an individual basis, not handed out based on where you were born. I’d swap ten local idiots for one hardworking, honest person from a different country in a heartbeat. I know, I know—it's a caricature, but you get my point.

At the end of the day, patriotism and nationalism are just symptoms of a broken society; they tend to flare up when things aren't functioning correctly. Nationality is the one thing you're stuck with from birth... everything else requires actual effort.
hollowtinker18 hollowtinker18 Active Member
120 messages
joined Sep 2011
#3 ·
If you ask me, try being a patriot first if there's any way you can 😁. I don't see anything wrong or negative with that... respecting and loving your own land, no matter what kind of place it is... it's yours...

And honestly, what's a person without a backbone and their own opinion🤷?

(just like those guys like Smith from Big Brother😂)..

As for this whole socialism thing, I'm not buying it... because we aren't, and we can't all be, equal or identical...
Brian Gonzalez9 Brian Gonzalez9 NewcomerOP
3 messages
joined Nov 2008
#4 ·
It’s truly refreshing when we actually find common ground on something.

Regarding socialism... isn't there something inherently nauseating about watching hardworking Americans get fleeced across the country? Think about the struggles at Huntington Ingalls Industries, U.S. Steel, or even the folks working at Walmart and similar places. I view those workers as my equals because they actually put in the effort, and frankly, they don't deserve to be trampled underfoot by those above them.

The lazy opportunists and thieves? I couldn't care less about them; unfortunately, they've managed to carve out quite a comfortable niche within socialism and are exploiting it to its fullest extent.
Casey Campbell Casey Campbell Member
10 messages
joined Nov 2008
#5 ·
Brian Gonzalez9 said:I’m not entirely sure which category this falls under, since it feels more like deep philosophical inquiry than mere politics 🤷.
If I’ve wandered into the wrong corner of the forum, would someone be so kind as to point me toward the right one?
Anyway, moving on... regarding my own ideology, I’m still trying to pin it down. I find myself drawn to patriotism—there’s something fundamentally right about respecting one's own country, people, and culture without harboring prejudices against anyone else—yet at the same time, I lean toward socialism (meaning we should all be equal, even if we’re all broke). So, is it actually possible to be both a patriot and a socialist simultaneously?? I would truly appreciate some clarity on this matter.
thanks.

Sure, it's possible. If you're a true patriot, then you have to be a socialist too. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Patriotism usually means loving the country itself, not necessarily every single person living in it. If you take the narrow view, maybe you don't need both. But if you take the broader view—where it isn't just about love for the land, but also love for the people—then you kind of have to be a socialist. I mean, someone who wants people to be slaves crushed under a capitalist boot probably doesn't actually love them.

I don't really have the energy for a massive debate here, but all this negativity toward socialism you see in the media, and even on this thread, it just seems like a huge misunderstanding of what socialism actually is. To me, socialism is a historical necessity. You can't have democracy without socialism, and you can't have socialism without democracy. It's either socialism or barbarism.
Casey Campbell Casey Campbell Member
10 messages
joined Nov 2008
#6 ·
Edward Flores4: I’m totally with you on that negative take regarding patriotism. At the same time, though, I can't say I agree with how you feel about socialism.

I think you’re capable of logic, but when it comes to socialism, you seem pretty stuck in your own biases. With the whole patriotism thing, your premises were solid, so your conclusion actually made sense. But with socialism? Your starting points were off, so even if your reasoning was sound, the final conclusion ended up being wrong.
Casey Campbell Casey Campbell Member
10 messages
joined Nov 2008
#7 ·
Quinn:
Personally, I don't back socialism. Not everyone is equal, I guess.
Socialism doesn't actually claim everyone is equal.

Quinn:
Socialism is just a cover for the less capable. It’s basically a slap in the face to anyone actually working hard, all under the guise of "equality."
Actually, it's the other way around. Capitalism is the cover for the unmotivated. It slaps the faces of high achievers by devaluing their effort through "inequality."

Quinn:
The lazy, the ignorant, the primitives, and the aggressors HAVE to be identified and sidelined. That's the only way a society can be "fair."
Sure. And only socialism can pull that off. Capitalism just protects them. Just look at how many "lazy, ignorant, primitive, and aggressive" types thrive under American capitalism while the smart, hardworking people struggle just to stay afloat.

Quinn:
And that brings us to the issue of patriotism—this idea of "respecting" the lazy, the ignorant, the thugs, and the thieves just because we share a nationality. People should be respected for who they are individually, not based on where they were born.
True enough.

Quinn:
Patriotism and nationalism are just symptoms of a broken society. They show up when things aren't functioning properly.
I guess I agree.
electricdriver93 electricdriver93 Member
24 messages
joined Aug 2007
#8 ·
Edward Flores4 said:I honestly don't get how you expect to just pivot your entire worldview based on what everyone else thinks.

I mean, who even has the authority to sit there and decide whether someone can be both a patriot and a socialist at the same time?

Regardless, if we’re looking at this through a philosophical lens, you really can't be both. You can try to follow certain ideologies—if you absolutely have to—but calling discrimination against outsiders "patriotism" is just using Orwellian doublethink.

Personally, I’m not a fan of socialism, mostly because let's face it: we aren't all equal. To me, socialism acts as a shield for those who contribute nothing, while basically slapping hardworking people in the face by devaluing their effort under the guise of "equality." In my view, lazy people, the ignorant, the crude, and the aggressive *must* be properly identified and held accountable—that's the only way a society can actually be "fair."

And that brings us right back to the issue of patriotism and this weird concept of "respecting" the slackers, the fools, and the criminals just because we happen to share the same nationality. Real respect should be earned on an individual basis, not handed out based on where you were born. I’d swap ten local idiots for one hardworking, honest person from a different country in a heartbeat. I know, I know—it's a caricature, but you get my point.

At the end of the day, patriotism and nationalism are just symptoms of a broken society; they tend to flare up when things aren't functioning correctly. Nationality is the one thing you're stuck with from birth... everything else requires actual effort.

Wrong.
There is quite a lot of other things we acquire just by being born, whereas nationality, as far as I am aware, is something we acquire through choice.
Isn't that right?
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 Regular
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#9 ·
Casey Campbell said:Quinn:
Personally, I don't back socialism. Not everyone is equal, I guess.
Socialism doesn't actually claim everyone is equal.

Quinn:
Socialism is just a cover for the less capable. It’s basically a slap in the face to anyone actually working hard, all under the guise of "equality."
Actually, it's the other way around. Capitalism is the cover for the unmotivated. It slaps the faces of high achievers by devaluing their effort through "inequality."

Quinn:
The lazy, the ignorant, the primitives, and the aggressors HAVE to be identified and sidelined. That's the only way a society can be "fair."
Sure. And only socialism can pull that off. Capitalism just protects them. Just look at how many "lazy, ignorant, primitive, and aggressive" types thrive under American capitalism while the smart, hardworking people struggle just to stay afloat.

Quinn:
And that brings us to the issue of patriotism—this idea of "respecting" the lazy, the ignorant, the thugs, and the thieves just because we share a nationality. People should be respected for who they are individually, not based on where they were born.
True enough.

Quinn:
Patriotism and nationalism are just symptoms of a broken society. They show up when things aren't functioning properly.
I guess I agree.

socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]

So, at its core, socialism is an economic ideology that plays a dangerous game with the idea of "redistributing wealth" based on need rather than actual productivity. On paper—in theory—that sounds absolutely wonderful, but in the real world? It basically just means the productive people end up dragging the unproductive ones along behind them.

You’re probably thinking of a socially conscious society, which is a completely different beast from socialism as a formal system of governance. Don't get me wrong—I have zero issues with public healthcare, the school system, Social Security, or providing a safety net for the homeless and those less fortunate.

But I don't support the ideology of socialism. Communism is a fine idea, much like civilization itself... unfortunately, we haven't quite managed to put either one into practice yet. 🙂

Quinn:
Actually, it's the exact opposite: Capitalism acts as a shield for those who contribute less, while essentially slapping the face of those who actually provide value by discrediting their hard work under the guise of fighting "inequality."
Look, I wasn't defending capitalism here, but if you think about it, both socialism and capitalism are built on the same cold, mechanistic logic. They both tend to view a human being as nothing more than a replaceable unit on an assembly line—where the "conveyor belt of progress" is the only thing that matters, and people are just secondary afterthoughts.

Capitalism is really just the older brother of socialism. The "triumph" of capitalists over socialists will be short-lived, because the very same systemic flaws that undermined socialism are going to sink capitalism too... and honestly, it’ll likely happen within our lifetime. 🙂

Quinn:
Of course. And the only way to achieve that is through socialism. Capitalism just protects them. Just look at how many "slackers, ignoramuses, and aggressive types" thrive under our capitalist system, while plenty of brilliant, hardworking individuals can't even get a foot in the door because they're stuck in a constant fight just to survive.
A truly just society will be one that moves away from the accumulation of wealth and an economic system built entirely on scarcity—which, if you really dig into it, means a society that finally does away with money, or rather, debt!
Casey Campbell Casey Campbell Member
10 messages
joined Nov 2008
#10 ·
electricdriver93 said:Wrong.
There is quite a lot of other things we acquire just by being born, whereas nationality, as far as I am aware, is something we acquire through choice.
Isn't that right?

I guess that’s true. You're born with your gender, eye color, intelligence, personality traits—even your wealth or social standing. It kind of breaks those typical capitalist arguments like "the capable should have everything and the incapable should have nothing." Because if you happen to be born a total moron with massive capital, you’ll just end up being a capitalist while the actual geniuses are stuck working for you because they were born into poverty. So, yeah, nationality is really just a matter of identification.

Edward Flores4 is probably right, though, in a way. Most people’s sense of identity is pretty much dictated by whatever environment they grew up in.
Sandra Wilson68 Sandra Wilson68 Active Member
75 messages
joined Mar 2004
#11 ·
Brian Gonzalez9,

You can't be a patriot and a socialist at the same time. It makes zero sense. Socialism is built on equality. Like you said yourself: "let's all be equal, even if we're all broke." So, socialism implies this kind of uniformity—this oneness where everything is undivided. Patriotism doesn't work like that. Patriotism thrives on division and inequality. It relies on being split up so an individual can actually make choices—saying, "I like this more than that" or "I prefer this over what they're doing." In socialism, you basically say everything is equal to me, everything is part of me, and I love it all as much as I love myself. But with patriotism? You can't think like that. There’s always a divide between "us" and "them," "ours" and "theirs," where "ours" is always loved more—if not outright hated.

The reality we live in, where we're split into "us" versus "them," isn't the true, natural way things should be. It's artificial. It's unnatural and distorted. These political, national, and religious divides aren't organic; they're manufactured, and they don't serve anyone. They exist only to cause harm, which is why they're so twisted. There’s no logical reason to love something evil or to be a patriot for it. We should love everyone on this planet equally, because all people are ONE. You should even love the ones who hate us, those who feel separated from us or think they're somehow different when they clearly don't realize we're all one. We're all just cookies made from the exact same dough. Eventually, everything gets crumbled, eaten, and folded back into the same dough again. Even plants, animals, and the entire inorganic world are equal to us. Organic life rises from inorganic matter, only to eventually return to it.

When you step back and look at the big picture, patriotism—just like nationalism or religious fanaticism—is usually just a product of ignorance and primitivism. All of it is the root cause of every kind of evil. And who needs evil? NOBODY!

Later.
Carl Anderson76 Carl Anderson76 Member
46 messages
joined Dec 2008
#12 ·
Is it actually possible to be both a patriot and a cosmopolite at the same time? Or am I just overthinking it—maybe they’re basically the same thing, just that cosmopolitanism feels like a "bigger" label compared to patriotism? If that's the case, does that mean you could also be a nationalist and a cosmopolite simultaneously?🤷
Brenda Lopez5 Brenda Lopez5 Member
12 messages
joined Oct 2008
#13 ·
Quinn:
I haven't heard much from Carl Anderson76 lately. It’s fine, I suppose. Just sitting here, thinking about how everything seems to be drifting toward that specific kind of socialism again. It’s messy. Everything feels fragmented. I tend to overthink these things—maybe too much, if I'm being honest—but there's a certain heaviness in the air regarding how we organize ourselves. It’s all just... much. Anyway. The user says:
Is it actually possible to be a patriot and a cosmopolitan at the same time? Or am I just overthinking this... maybe they’re essentially the same thing, just that cosmopolitanism acts as a sort of "wider lens" version of patriotism? If that's the case, then the question becomes even more tangled: could one realistically be a nationalist and a cosmopolitan simultaneously?🤷
It’s entirely possible to be both a patriot and a socialist at the same time. But honestly, people who try to bridge that gap usually end up being labeled as national socialists. I suppose it all just depends on how you personally define "socialism."
I honestly don't think you can be both a patriot and a cosmopolitan at the same time. It just doesn't track. Nationalism and cosmopolitanism... they're mutually exclusive. You pick one or the other. Now, you could be a liberal and a cosmopolitan? Sure. That actually makes sense. Those two things sort of go hand in hand.
crimsonjackal63 crimsonjackal63 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2012
#14 ·
You’ve got patriots who are total morons.
Then you’ve got morons who think they’re patriots.

There are people with a heart for social justice who are true patriots.
And there are just plain old idiots who happen to be socialists.

At the end of the day—it's entirely possible to love your country and actually give a damn about social welfare at the same time.
Philosophy shouldn't be some rigid, cookie-cutter discipline where you have to pick a pre-packaged box to live in.
Steven Cooper13 Steven Cooper13 Newcomer
1 message
joined Nov 2008
#15 ·
Here’s my take... it’s not that I hate America, but honestly? Life was way better back in the days of America. Deep down, I’m a leftist—a socialist through and through. I can't stand capitalism and all that nonsense. There's just something about communism and socialism; those eras have this mystique and charisma that really draws me in.
Bottom line: you can be a patriot and a socialist at the same time. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just that in today's world, with all these twisted values and warped morals, people hear the word SOCIALIST and immediately act like you're some enemy of the state or whatever.

Side note: people in the States have way too much time on their hands if they're spending it yapping about politics and history... there's a massive crisis happening and nobody has any money, yet everyone just☕☕☕
bluebison70 bluebison70 Active Member
50 messages
joined Nov 2007
#16 ·
rodinik;17115585 said:I'm not sure how to categorize this... I mean, it doesn't feel strictly political because there's so much philosophy baked into it 🤷.QUOTE]

Patriotism... it's really just a sentiment, I guess. A complex feeling tied to one's homeland, nation, or roots. But honestly, patriotism—or whatever you want to call it—is often this vague, hazy emotion used to mask a whole lot of self-deception, lies, manipulation, and pure political pragmatism.

Take an American soldier serving in Iraq, for instance. They go over there because of "patriotism." It's almost funny, if you think about it. They’ve been fed all sorts of rhetoric, and now they're risking everything for some abstract idea of home. For a homeland located in Iraq?

"We have America!" people used to shout in those feverish moments. Sure, maybe some really do have it. But what about everyone else? Do they actually have America? (I mean, look at the retirees living in subpar housing, or the unemployed struggling through poverty, hopelessness, and total resignation).
Patriotism? It's just a fairy tale for the naive, I suppose.

socialism doesn't actually result in equality, neither in theory nor in practice. Fighting for equality is basically fighting for an illusion. Equality isn't even an idealism to me; it feels more like idiocy. I mean, in what way are we actually equal? In our knowledge, our intelligence, our looks, our social standing, our wealth, our capacity to love, or our talents? How could you ever equalize those things? Maybe, but only by destroying anyone who stands out from the crowd, until eventually, you're left with nothing but mediocrity. We are only equal in very abstract terms: if you strip away every single difference, then I guess you could say we're all equal simply because we're all human. An emperor and a pauper are both humans. That's where any real sense of equality ends.

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