Started by lonegardener · · 👁 6 views · 43 replies
Samuel Miller21 said:👍
I find myself hoping that it remains just as volatile. When I reflect on it, I begin to suspect that this might be the very essence of all destructiveness—the desperate urge to tear down a flawed periphery.
Charles Thomas70 said:lonegardener, I wonder if you grew up in an environment like this—with a father who constantly lectured everyone, and still does, and a mother who thought, and still thinks, that her kid is the smartest and most wonderful person on the planet?
Samuel Miller21 said:I find myself deeply frustrated by these reflexive behaviors of mine—those moments when I find myself entangling myself in matters that hold absolutely no purpose or significance, driven solely by a surge of narcissism or mere habit. In those moments, it feels as though I am trampling over everything I actually value in life. It is as if some temporary persona, shaped entirely by my environment and completely disconnected from my true self, takes control, causing me to speak or think things that don't matter to me in the slightest.
It weighs on me because these episodes are such a waste of time; they tend to cloud my vision, making me lose sight of all the beautiful, interesting, and exhilarating aspects of existence.
Ultimately, these impulses lead toward a dull mire of exhausted ideas that are endlessly recycled—worn out and hollow, yet always delivered with the misplaced conviction that something profound has been said. As Kundera once observed: many people, very few ideas.
To be fair, I am specifically referring to those reflexive reactions where one acts out of compulsion rather than genuine interest. Not all philosophical inquiry needs to be this way; discourse fueled by actual passion is always far more engaging and inspiring.
But what is the problem with that?
Lately, what haunts me most is the notion that we might be entirely undeterministic—that we could shift in any direction at any given moment. It isn't that I am suddenly overflowing with self-satisfaction in every aspect of my life, but rather this question: if no part of me is determined, then what am I? Am I merely a collection of characteristics that happened to coincide in time and space, and am I supposed to accept that accidental cluster as my "self"?
Just as much as the idea of absolute determinism terrifies me, so does the idea of ultimate indeterminism. Imagine if everything rested solely upon human will and choice... something so precarious, volatile, and unstable. 😲
Total indeterminism shatters my concept of an individual core. If I am defined by nothing, then I can believe in neither a purpose for my existence nor a necessity for my presence in the natural order. 🤷
Unless, of course, nature is nothing more than a statistician managing random events. 😁
Samuel Miller21 said:I find myself deeply frustrated by these reflexive behaviors of mine—those moments when I find myself entangling myself in matters that hold absolutely no purpose or significance, driven solely by a surge of narcissism or mere habit. In those moments, it feels as though I am trampling over everything I actually value in life. It is as if some temporary persona, shaped entirely by my environment and completely disconnected from my true self, takes control, causing me to speak or think things that don't matter to me in the slightest.
It weighs on me because these episodes are such a waste of time; they tend to cloud my vision, making me lose sight of all the beautiful, interesting, and exhilarating aspects of existence.
Ultimately, these impulses lead toward a dull mire of exhausted ideas that are endlessly recycled—worn out and hollow, yet always delivered with the misplaced conviction that something profound has been said. As Kundera once observed: many people, very few ideas.
To be fair, I am specifically referring to those reflexive reactions where one acts out of compulsion rather than genuine interest. Not all philosophical inquiry needs to be this way; discourse fueled by actual passion is always far more engaging and inspiring.
But what is the problem with that?
Lately, what haunts me most is the notion that we might be entirely undeterministic—that we could shift in any direction at any given moment. It isn't that I am suddenly overflowing with self-satisfaction in every aspect of my life, but rather this question: if no part of me is determined, then what am I? Am I merely a collection of characteristics that happened to coincide in time and space, and am I supposed to accept that accidental cluster as my "self"?
Just as much as the idea of absolute determinism terrifies me, so does the idea of ultimate indeterminism. Imagine if everything rested solely upon human will and choice... something so precarious, volatile, and unstable. 😲
Total indeterminism shatters my concept of an individual core. If I am defined by nothing, then I can believe in neither a purpose for my existence nor a necessity for my presence in the natural order. 🤷
Unless, of course, nature is nothing more than a statistician managing random events. 😁
Samuel Miller21 said:I find myself deeply frustrated by these reflexive behaviors of mine—those moments when I find myself entangling myself in matters that hold absolutely no purpose or significance, driven solely by a surge of narcissism or mere habit. In those moments, it feels as though I am trampling over everything I actually value in life. It is as if some temporary persona, shaped entirely by my environment and completely disconnected from my true self, takes control, causing me to speak or think things that don't matter to me in the slightest.
It weighs on me because these episodes are such a waste of time; they tend to cloud my vision, making me lose sight of all the beautiful, interesting, and exhilarating aspects of existence.
Ultimately, these impulses lead toward a dull mire of exhausted ideas that are endlessly recycled—worn out and hollow, yet always delivered with the misplaced conviction that something profound has been said. As Kundera once observed: many people, very few ideas.
To be fair, I am specifically referring to those reflexive reactions where one acts out of compulsion rather than genuine interest. Not all philosophical inquiry needs to be this way; discourse fueled by actual passion is always far more engaging and inspiring.
But what is the problem with that?
Lately, what haunts me most is the notion that we might be entirely undeterministic—that we could shift in any direction at any given moment. It isn't that I am suddenly overflowing with self-satisfaction in every aspect of my life, but rather this question: if no part of me is determined, then what am I? Am I merely a collection of characteristics that happened to coincide in time and space, and am I supposed to accept that accidental cluster as my "self"?
Just as much as the idea of absolute determinism terrifies me, so does the idea of ultimate indeterminism. Imagine if everything rested solely upon human will and choice... something so precarious, volatile, and unstable. 😲
Total indeterminism shatters my concept of an individual core. If I am defined by nothing, then I can believe in neither a purpose for my existence nor a necessity for my presence in the natural order. 🤷
Unless, of course, nature is nothing more than a statistician managing random events. 😁
Amanda Roberts21 said:That thing that stays CONSTANT and cannot be CHANGED
isn't the SOURCE of your frustration.
That is your CENTER.
It's the PERIPHERY that gets to you.
You don't need to fix the periphery—it’s so inherently unstable that it’ll change on its own eventually. Just make sure you don't TRUST it in the meantime.🙂
lonegardener said:I know why...
I get frustrated with myself because I honestly feel like I'm brilliant, even though every single day I prove to myself that I'm actually as clueless as they come. It's strange how an intelligent person can be so hopelessly dense. 😲
I mean, I can go maybe five days without feeling the need to lecture someone, and then that's it... I can't hold out any longer. Is that some kind of obsessive-compulsive thing? Maybe an addiction? 😱
How should I put this... I realize that I don't know anything, yet somehow everything still feels crystal clear to me. 😬 And I just can't help it... the realization that I am completely unversed in so many fields of human knowledge doesn't actually instill any sense of respect or humility in me regarding the fact that other people know a massive amount about those subjects (different people knowing different things).
To be completely honest (at least on this subject, not generally 😈)—I think I first noticed this trait in other people, and it drove me absolutely crazy; then I realized I was exactly the same way. In fact, I probably get annoyed with those same people precisely because they are just like me. (It’s like those two goats fighting on a narrow ridge in one of those old fables).
I would love for someone to thoroughly prove to me that I have no idea what I'm talking about—but they'd have to do it impartially, neutrally, and with pure logic. Because if they get emotionally involved, I'll just dismiss it as their own ego trip or their own desperate need to act smart, or whatever. Just vanity, really. Vanitas vanitatum, etoga vanitas. Even when someone tries to convince me that it's perfectly fine to be vain, that it's normal and something I should just accept and make peace with... even doing that is usually driven by that same vanity, for themselves rather than for me. They say a dog doesn't bark for the sake of the village... and I see that clearly in myself. I'm the dog, and I'm not barking for the village; I'm barking for myself. And even the desire I have to bark for the village for just one day—even that is just another selfish wish. Damn. 😠 😠 😠
Thinking like this leaves me with this feeling of hopeless lack of freedom... sure, I can do whatever I want, but I can only want what I want and nothing else. When it comes to my own desires, I am totally conditioned and determined. I can't "want to want" something different than what I actually want. Well, I technically can—I'm doing it right now 😬—but then I fall into a total paradox and a logical loop that gives me a headache. Better go to sleep...
lonegardener said:Is there such a thing as a "different" kind of family? 😲 🤣
All jokes aside... seriously though, I think you could find traces of what he’s talking about pretty much anywhere, whether it's subtle or glaringly obvious. At least, that's my take on it. 😲
Exactly... what Americans would call a "knee-jerk reaction." I just can't resist that kind of hollow philosophizing. At the end of the day, it all boils down to a handful of recurring motives circling the drain: motivation, selfishness, purpose, meaning... just endless combinations and variations of the same thing. Throw in a little politics and sociology, and wow—what a massive, messy pile of nonsense you get! 😠
Honestly, I always love the actual process of philosophizing—it’s great while it's happening—but that "after-taste" is just awful. You end up feeling like you haven't actually become any smarter, nor have you helped anyone else in the slightest. Though, I suppose if enough time passes, maybe it eventually becomes useful.
Exactly. That whole identity crisis issue 😢 ... IBM, when I remember high school, back when they had those psychology classes talking about an 'identity crisis'—it felt so ridiculous. What kind of dark crisis was that? Seriously, WTF? 🙄 😍
So, what would you say instead? Who or what are you, really?
IBM.. but this sounds a bit 'too good to be true,' almost overly positive. For instance, how would you answer these:
1. Are you certain that's actually the case, or rather, how can you possibly know?
2. How do I know you truly believe that, and aren't just trying to comfort yourself by repeating it because maybe you're dealing with the exact same thing?
3. Even if I assume you know and that it really is true—in that scenario, what is my center versus my periphery, and how do I tell them apart? 😕
The actual philosophizing is always fun, but the aftertaste is terrible... I don't end up smarter, and I certainly haven't helped anyone. Though, perhaps enough time passing makes it worthwhile.
lonegardener said:Is there such a thing as a "different" kind of family? 😲 🤣
All jokes aside... seriously though, I think you could find traces of what he’s talking about pretty much anywhere, whether it's subtle or glaringly obvious. At least, that's my take on it. 😲
Exactly... what Americans would call a "knee-jerk reaction." I just can't resist that kind of hollow philosophizing. At the end of the day, it all boils down to a handful of recurring motives circling the drain: motivation, selfishness, purpose, meaning... just endless combinations and variations of the same thing. Throw in a little politics and sociology, and wow—what a massive, messy pile of nonsense you get! 😠
Honestly, I always love the actual process of philosophizing—it’s great while it's happening—but that "after-taste" is just awful. You end up feeling like you haven't actually become any smarter, nor have you helped anyone else in the slightest. Though, I suppose if enough time passes, maybe it eventually becomes useful.
Exactly. That whole identity crisis issue 😢 ... IBM, when I remember high school, back when they had those psychology classes talking about an 'identity crisis'—it felt so ridiculous. What kind of dark crisis was that? Seriously, WTF? 🙄 😍
So, what would you say instead? Who or what are you, really?
IBM.. but this sounds a bit 'too good to be true,' almost overly positive. For instance, how would you answer these:
1. Are you certain that's actually the case, or rather, how can you possibly know?
2. How do I know you truly believe that, and aren't just trying to comfort yourself by repeating it because maybe you're dealing with the exact same thing?
3. Even if I assume you know and that it really is true—in that scenario, what is my center versus my periphery, and how do I tell them apart? 😕
lonegardener said:What should I do when I'm starting to lose my cool? 😲 🤷
Amanda Roberts21 said:1. I know. I've lived it.
2. You can't.
3. Your center is you—your own consciousness, that raw sense of "I am." The periphery is merely the mind identifying itself with whatever your senses happen to touch. The first part is always constant; the second is in a state of perpetual flux.
Amanda Roberts21 said:1. I know. I've lived it.
2. You can't.
3. Your center is you—your own consciousness, that raw sense of "I am." The periphery is merely the mind identifying itself with whatever your senses happen to touch. The first part is always constant; the second is in a state of perpetual flux.
Amanda Roberts21 said:1. I know. I've lived it.
2. You can't.
3. Your center is you—your own consciousness, that raw sense of "I am." The periphery is merely the mind identifying itself with whatever your senses happen to touch. The first part is always constant; the second is in a state of perpetual flux.
Ronald Rogers27 said:That's a dead giveaway that you aren't happy with yourself. You're frustrated because you feel weak in certain areas, and those weaknesses are driving you crazy since you can't seem to get a grip on them.
You need to sit down, look yourself straight in the eye in a mental mirror, and pinpoint exactly where you're losing control. Once you do that, perform some damage control. Then, after a bit of time passes, sit down and have another heart-to-heart with yourself. From there, you take corrective action to regain ironclad control over your mind and body.
You have to keep working on yourself, moving in a spiral that leads toward one central point: Progress. That’s the only way to reach a state where you'll feel relatively satisfied with who you are. 👍
(relatively satisfied...) 🙂
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:That's a dead giveaway that you aren't happy with yourself. You're frustrated because you feel weak in certain areas, and those weaknesses are driving you crazy since you can't seem to get a grip on them.
You need to sit down, look yourself straight in the eye in a mental mirror, and pinpoint exactly where you're losing control. Once you do that, perform some damage control. Then, after a bit of time passes, sit down and have another heart-to-heart with yourself. From there, you take corrective action to regain ironclad control over your mind and body.
You have to keep working on yourself, moving in a spiral that leads toward one central point: Progress. That’s the only way to reach a state where you'll feel relatively satisfied with who you are. 👍
(relatively satisfied...) 🙂
Ronald Rogers27
lonegardener said:Is there such a thing as a "different" kind of family? 😲 🤣
All jokes aside... seriously though, I think you could find traces of what he’s talking about pretty much anywhere, whether it's subtle or glaringly obvious. At least, that's my take on it. 😲
Exactly... what Americans would call a "knee-jerk reaction." I just can't resist that kind of hollow philosophizing. At the end of the day, it all boils down to a handful of recurring motives circling the drain: motivation, selfishness, purpose, meaning... just endless combinations and variations of the same thing. Throw in a little politics and sociology, and wow—what a massive, messy pile of nonsense you get! 😠
Honestly, I always love the actual process of philosophizing—it’s great while it's happening—but that "after-taste" is just awful. You end up feeling like you haven't actually become any smarter, nor have you helped anyone else in the slightest. Though, I suppose if enough time passes, maybe it eventually becomes useful.
Exactly. That whole identity crisis issue 😢 ... IBM, when I remember high school, back when they had those psychology classes talking about an 'identity crisis'—it felt so ridiculous. What kind of dark crisis was that? Seriously, WTF? 🙄 😍
So, what would you say instead? Who or what are you, really?
IBM.. but this sounds a bit 'too good to be true,' almost overly positive. For instance, how would you answer these:
1. Are you certain that's actually the case, or rather, how can you possibly know?
2. How do I know you truly believe that, and aren't just trying to comfort yourself by repeating it because maybe you're dealing with the exact same thing?
3. Even if I assume you know and that it really is true—in that scenario, what is my center versus my periphery, and how do I tell them apart? 😕
In truth, one ought to strive toward something entirely selfless. If you succeed, perhaps a sense of self-satisfaction will emerge as a mere side effect. However, I believe we should attempt to hammer such self-satisfaction out of our minds—though these tendencies have a frustrating habit of rooting themselves deeper the harder you strike at them. I find myself under the distinct impression that the more intently I contemplate the concept of altruism, the more of a selfish piece of work I actually become.
The real question remains: will I ever truly break free from this cycle?
lonegardener said:Exactly.
Ahem... the diagnosis was spot on, but the therapy is—as usual—much more problematic. Would I want to be satisfied with myself? Well, on some level, definitely... however, the issue is that I can't even imagine it. You see, I can't wrap my head around who I would need to be or what I would need to do to actually reach that satisfaction. So, I don't see any clear course of action. Besides, I can't help but think it might be impossible. If you do something solely to satisfy yourself, then by some paradoxical logic, you can never truly achieve it. Honestly, a person should strive for something entirely selfless, and then perhaps, as a side effect, find satisfaction. But that kind of self-satisfaction is something you should try to hammer out of your head—except such things have a nasty habit of rooting themselves deeper the harder you strike them. I get the impression that the more I think about being unselfish, the more selfishly wretched I become. The question is whether I'll ever break free from this loop.
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, if you’re really saying you can't find a way to be happy with yourself, that points to a few different issues...
Numero uno: You're being too selfish. You think the whole world revolves around you, so you don't see any reason to change. That leads to the conclusion that you *don't need* to change because you're living a pretty comfortable life just the way you are. You're privileged. People accept you because they benefit from the status quo—you're high enough up the ladder that they let you stay exactly where you are without lifting a finger.
Numero duo: A person should strive for something else entirely—some kind of meaningful work or a craft to master. If you don't have that drive, it means you're spoiled. You're expecting the world to bend to your skills rather than bending your skills to meet the needs of the world.
The bottom line: In the movie "gladiator," you're basically playing the role of "Commodus." Just map that movie onto your own life, and you'll have a perfect description of the very problem you're asking us to solve... 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, if you’re really saying you can't find a way to be happy with yourself, that points to a few different issues...
Numero uno: You're being too selfish. You think the whole world revolves around you, so you don't see any reason to change. That leads to the conclusion that you *don't need* to change because you're living a pretty comfortable life just the way you are. You're privileged. People accept you because they benefit from the status quo—you're high enough up the ladder that they let you stay exactly where you are without lifting a finger.
Numero duo: A person should strive for something else entirely—some kind of meaningful work or a craft to master. If you don't have that drive, it means you're spoiled. You're expecting the world to bend to your skills rather than bending your skills to meet the needs of the world.
The bottom line: In the movie "gladiator," you're basically playing the role of "Commodus." Just map that movie onto your own life, and you'll have a perfect description of the very problem you're asking us to solve... 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, if you’re really saying you can't find a way to be happy with yourself, that points to a few different issues...
Numero uno: You're being too selfish. You think the whole world revolves around you, so you don't see any reason to change. That leads to the conclusion that you *don't need* to change because you're living a pretty comfortable life just the way you are. You're privileged. People accept you because they benefit from the status quo—you're high enough up the ladder that they let you stay exactly where you are without lifting a finger.
Numero duo: A person should strive for something else entirely—some kind of meaningful work or a craft to master. If you don't have that drive, it means you're spoiled. You're expecting the world to bend to your skills rather than bending your skills to meet the needs of the world.
The bottom line: In the movie "gladiator," you're basically playing the role of "Commodus." Just map that movie onto your own life, and you'll have a perfect description of the very problem you're asking us to solve... 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, I’m totally with you. If I could afford to be lazy, I’d be lazy. If I could be selfish, I’d be incredibly selfish. I’d have 33 girlfriends if I could... 😂
But the thing is, I CAN'T. To survive this desperation—I actually wrote about this two months ago in my philosophy class, where we had two prompts describing my struggles in the American *gladiator* arena—I had to adapt aggressively. Life is fundamentally unfair. But to stay alive, I simply don't have the luxury of being self-pitying or selfish. I can't waste energy threatening the winners after I lose a fight, because I need every ounce of strength for the next battle. Besides, those winners can come back and take my head off, or at least put me in a cage...
What I'm getting at is this: you become unselfish out of necessity. You build emotional depth out of necessity. You learn how life works out of necessity. Necessity forces selfless behavior and a real understanding of your own limits...
The end result? I'm actually pretty happy with myself. Necessity forced me to level up. It pushed me to grow mentally and physically over the years just so I COULD endure the brutal fight against American alligators that show no mercy... So, through sheer necessity, I reached a level that satisfies me...
(And necessity taught me a lot of life lessons, most importantly, that *everything changes except the stones*) 🤣
_______
So you say you're unhappy because you're selfish? Well, clearly you have the capacity for it, but try framing the problem differently: *strip away* your defenses and just be selfish. Then you'll see how people really react to you. It's not just that you're unhappy because society rejects you; it's that, implicitly, people don't actually like you. They just hide it to serve their own interests, but you feel it, and that's why you're feeling this dissatisfaction. People don't just accept selfishness as normal.
If you take away everyone's selfish motives, some people will throw your selfishness right back in your face, while most will just avoid you. I mean, who wants a selfish *friend* when they're already dealing with enough problems in this harsh world?
(Necessity changes things, but you aren't under any forced pressure—others are, because they depend on you. That's why this will just end in your endless frustration) 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, I’m totally with you. If I could afford to be lazy, I’d be lazy. If I could be selfish, I’d be incredibly selfish. I’d have 33 girlfriends if I could... 😂
But the thing is, I CAN'T. To survive this desperation—I actually wrote about this two months ago in my philosophy class, where we had two prompts describing my struggles in the American *gladiator* arena—I had to adapt aggressively. Life is fundamentally unfair. But to stay alive, I simply don't have the luxury of being self-pitying or selfish. I can't waste energy threatening the winners after I lose a fight, because I need every ounce of strength for the next battle. Besides, those winners can come back and take my head off, or at least put me in a cage...
What I'm getting at is this: you become unselfish out of necessity. You build emotional depth out of necessity. You learn how life works out of necessity. Necessity forces selfless behavior and a real understanding of your own limits...
The end result? I'm actually pretty happy with myself. Necessity forced me to level up. It pushed me to grow mentally and physically over the years just so I COULD endure the brutal fight against American alligators that show no mercy... So, through sheer necessity, I reached a level that satisfies me...
(And necessity taught me a lot of life lessons, most importantly, that *everything changes except the stones*) 🤣
_______
So you say you're unhappy because you're selfish? Well, clearly you have the capacity for it, but try framing the problem differently: *strip away* your defenses and just be selfish. Then you'll see how people really react to you. It's not just that you're unhappy because society rejects you; it's that, implicitly, people don't actually like you. They just hide it to serve their own interests, but you feel it, and that's why you're feeling this dissatisfaction. People don't just accept selfishness as normal.
If you take away everyone's selfish motives, some people will throw your selfishness right back in your face, while most will just avoid you. I mean, who wants a selfish *friend* when they're already dealing with enough problems in this harsh world?
(Necessity changes things, but you aren't under any forced pressure—others are, because they depend on you. That's why this will just end in your endless frustration) 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, I’m totally with you. If I could afford to be lazy, I’d be lazy. If I could be selfish, I’d be incredibly selfish. I’d have 33 girlfriends if I could... 😂
But the thing is, I CAN'T. To survive this desperation—I actually wrote about this two months ago in my philosophy class, where we had two prompts describing my struggles in the American *gladiator* arena—I had to adapt aggressively. Life is fundamentally unfair. But to stay alive, I simply don't have the luxury of being self-pitying or selfish. I can't waste energy threatening the winners after I lose a fight, because I need every ounce of strength for the next battle. Besides, those winners can come back and take my head off, or at least put me in a cage...
What I'm getting at is this: you become unselfish out of necessity. You build emotional depth out of necessity. You learn how life works out of necessity. Necessity forces selfless behavior and a real understanding of your own limits...
The end result? I'm actually pretty happy with myself. Necessity forced me to level up. It pushed me to grow mentally and physically over the years just so I COULD endure the brutal fight against American alligators that show no mercy... So, through sheer necessity, I reached a level that satisfies me...
(And necessity taught me a lot of life lessons, most importantly, that *everything changes except the stones*) 🤣
_______
So you say you're unhappy because you're selfish? Well, clearly you have the capacity for it, but try framing the problem differently: *strip away* your defenses and just be selfish. Then you'll see how people really react to you. It's not just that you're unhappy because society rejects you; it's that, implicitly, people don't actually like you. They just hide it to serve their own interests, but you feel it, and that's why you're feeling this dissatisfaction. People don't just accept selfishness as normal.
If you take away everyone's selfish motives, some people will throw your selfishness right back in your face, while most will just avoid you. I mean, who wants a selfish *friend* when they're already dealing with enough problems in this harsh world?
(Necessity changes things, but you aren't under any forced pressure—others are, because they depend on you. That's why this will just end in your endless frustration) 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, I’m totally with you. If I could afford to be lazy, I’d be lazy. If I could be selfish, I’d be incredibly selfish. I’d have 33 girlfriends if I could... 😂
But the thing is, I CAN'T. To survive this desperation—I actually wrote about this two months ago in my philosophy class, where we had two prompts describing my struggles in the American *gladiator* arena—I had to adapt aggressively. Life is fundamentally unfair. But to stay alive, I simply don't have the luxury of being self-pitying or selfish. I can't waste energy threatening the winners after I lose a fight, because I need every ounce of strength for the next battle. Besides, those winners can come back and take my head off, or at least put me in a cage...
What I'm getting at is this: you become unselfish out of necessity. You build emotional depth out of necessity. You learn how life works out of necessity. Necessity forces selfless behavior and a real understanding of your own limits...
The end result? I'm actually pretty happy with myself. Necessity forced me to level up. It pushed me to grow mentally and physically over the years just so I COULD endure the brutal fight against American alligators that show no mercy... So, through sheer necessity, I reached a level that satisfies me...
(And necessity taught me a lot of life lessons, most importantly, that *everything changes except the stones*) 🤣
_______
So you say you're unhappy because you're selfish? Well, clearly you have the capacity for it, but try framing the problem differently: *strip away* your defenses and just be selfish. Then you'll see how people really react to you. It's not just that you're unhappy because society rejects you; it's that, implicitly, people don't actually like you. They just hide it to serve their own interests, but you feel it, and that's why you're feeling this dissatisfaction. People don't just accept selfishness as normal.
If you take away everyone's selfish motives, some people will throw your selfishness right back in your face, while most will just avoid you. I mean, who wants a selfish *friend* when they're already dealing with enough problems in this harsh world?
(Necessity changes things, but you aren't under any forced pressure—others are, because they depend on you. That's why this will just end in your endless frustration) 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:Look, I’m totally with you. If I could afford to be lazy, I’d be lazy. If I could be selfish, I’d be incredibly selfish. I’d have 33 girlfriends if I could... 😂
But the thing is, I CAN'T. To survive this desperation—I actually wrote about this two months ago in my philosophy class, where we had two prompts describing my struggles in the American *gladiator* arena—I had to adapt aggressively. Life is fundamentally unfair. But to stay alive, I simply don't have the luxury of being self-pitying or selfish. I can't waste energy threatening the winners after I lose a fight, because I need every ounce of strength for the next battle. Besides, those winners can come back and take my head off, or at least put me in a cage...
What I'm getting at is this: you become unselfish out of necessity. You build emotional depth out of necessity. You learn how life works out of necessity. Necessity forces selfless behavior and a real understanding of your own limits...
The end result? I'm actually pretty happy with myself. Necessity forced me to level up. It pushed me to grow mentally and physically over the years just so I COULD endure the brutal fight against American alligators that show no mercy... So, through sheer necessity, I reached a level that satisfies me...
(And necessity taught me a lot of life lessons, most importantly, that *everything changes except the stones*) 🤣
_______
So you say you're unhappy because you're selfish? Well, clearly you have the capacity for it, but try framing the problem differently: *strip away* your defenses and just be selfish. Then you'll see how people really react to you. It's not just that you're unhappy because society rejects you; it's that, implicitly, people don't actually like you. They just hide it to serve their own interests, but you feel it, and that's why you're feeling this dissatisfaction. People don't just accept selfishness as normal.
If you take away everyone's selfish motives, some people will throw your selfishness right back in your face, while most will just avoid you. I mean, who wants a selfish *friend* when they're already dealing with enough problems in this harsh world?
(Necessity changes things, but you aren't under any forced pressure—others are, because they depend on you. That's why this will just end in your endless frustration) 🤷
Ronald Rogers27
lonegardener said:😲 It has always fascinated me about you guys from the "Eastern Bloc" (don't take that the wrong way)—you seem to have this capacity for being brutally honest with yourselves. How does that song go from *Better Call Saul*?
I want life, a better life
to grab it like a tiger
life isn't child's play
I want more, I want even better
I want it all, come what may
but what's the point if I don't belong to that breed
because life demands better people.
Now, as far as I'm concerned—it's possible that I've actually been somewhat privileged, as you suggest. I haven't (yet 😲) ever been in a situation where I had to fight tooth and nail just to stay alive. But then again, that's relative. I don't believe you were forced to move to the USA solely for basic survival. You can live on bread and water... you don't necessarily need ice cream... or enough hot water so you aren't worrying about the utility bill. To me, I'd rather be a guy living on the streets than live the kind of life you're describing ("tooth and nail"). I realize this might sound like I'm acting like a spoiled, pampered mama's boy—and maybe I am giving off that impression—but if you knew my actual living conditions, how I live, my actual needs, and my relationship with luxury or comfort, I don't think you'd still think that.
No, that isn't unselfishness... I don't accept that kind of "unselfishness," and I don't believe any amount of necessity would force me into it.
How will they react? Probably not well. It’s similar to how I feel about that "selflessness" born out of necessity that you mentioned—it just doesn't sit right with me. To be honest, I have no appreciation for "selflessness" when it's driven by impulse, let alone when it's forced by circumstance.
Well, you make a fair point—who actually needs a selfish "friend"? I’d frame it differently: who really needs an "unselfish" friend out of pure necessity? What's the real difference there? Because if that "unselfish" friend happens to find themselves in a position where they no longer *need* anything from you, they'll likely turn selfish pretty quickly. Wouldn't you agree?
If you frame it like that, friendship becomes an impossibility. It turns into either a massive ego trip or nothing more than raw necessity—or, if you’re being generous, just a transaction. At that point, friendship is basically a contract where both sides trade assets just to get something else in return. And the moment one side can't pay up anymore, the whole obligation vanishes like it never existed. Is that really all there is to it? Are you saying that sheer desperation is what forced you to accept a situation like that?
Ha—I think you're right about that. But honestly, I don't think I’d be any happier even if I did have a massive circle of friends just out of necessity. There's no real fulfillment in being "friends" with people simply because it serves an ego trip or a business deal. To be truthful, I'm pretty sure I'd still be just as unhappy.
Basically, you keep bringing up "necessity" like it’s the only thing that matters. But look at it this way: when someone is being impaled on a stake, they certainly feel a "necessity" to get off it, right? My point is, simply feeling a need doesn't define anything if there isn't a clear course of action available to actually fix the situation. The same goes for me. I don't believe life's pressures will ever force my hand, mostly because I won't necessarily know *how* to satisfy those demands. Think of it like this: imagine I'm stranded in the middle of the Mojave Desert with almost no water left. Once that last drop is gone, I might fall into total despair—but since there isn't a single source of water for miles, what exactly is that desperation going to force me to do? What would you do if you were alone in the desert without water? Would you start digging frantically in the sand, hoping against hope that you'd find a spring? Would you just start running in a random direction, praying it leads you out of the dunes? Or would you do something else entirely?
lonegardener said:😲 It has always fascinated me about you guys from the "Eastern Bloc" (don't take that the wrong way)—you seem to have this capacity for being brutally honest with yourselves. How does that song go from *Better Call Saul*?
I want life, a better life
to grab it like a tiger
life isn't child's play
I want more, I want even better
I want it all, come what may
but what's the point if I don't belong to that breed
because life demands better people.
Now, as far as I'm concerned—it's possible that I've actually been somewhat privileged, as you suggest. I haven't (yet 😲) ever been in a situation where I had to fight tooth and nail just to stay alive. But then again, that's relative. I don't believe you were forced to move to the USA solely for basic survival. You can live on bread and water... you don't necessarily need ice cream... or enough hot water so you aren't worrying about the utility bill. To me, I'd rather be a guy living on the streets than live the kind of life you're describing ("tooth and nail"). I realize this might sound like I'm acting like a spoiled, pampered mama's boy—and maybe I am giving off that impression—but if you knew my actual living conditions, how I live, my actual needs, and my relationship with luxury or comfort, I don't think you'd still think that.
No, that isn't unselfishness... I don't accept that kind of "unselfishness," and I don't believe any amount of necessity would force me into it.
How will they react? Probably not well. It’s similar to how I feel about that "selflessness" born out of necessity that you mentioned—it just doesn't sit right with me. To be honest, I have no appreciation for "selflessness" when it's driven by impulse, let alone when it's forced by circumstance.
Well, you make a fair point—who actually needs a selfish "friend"? I’d frame it differently: who really needs an "unselfish" friend out of pure necessity? What's the real difference there? Because if that "unselfish" friend happens to find themselves in a position where they no longer *need* anything from you, they'll likely turn selfish pretty quickly. Wouldn't you agree?
If you frame it like that, friendship becomes an impossibility. It turns into either a massive ego trip or nothing more than raw necessity—or, if you’re being generous, just a transaction. At that point, friendship is basically a contract where both sides trade assets just to get something else in return. And the moment one side can't pay up anymore, the whole obligation vanishes like it never existed. Is that really all there is to it? Are you saying that sheer desperation is what forced you to accept a situation like that?
Ha—I think you're right about that. But honestly, I don't think I’d be any happier even if I did have a massive circle of friends just out of necessity. There's no real fulfillment in being "friends" with people simply because it serves an ego trip or a business deal. To be truthful, I'm pretty sure I'd still be just as unhappy.
Basically, you keep bringing up "necessity" like it’s the only thing that matters. But look at it this way: when someone is being impaled on a stake, they certainly feel a "necessity" to get off it, right? My point is, simply feeling a need doesn't define anything if there isn't a clear course of action available to actually fix the situation. The same goes for me. I don't believe life's pressures will ever force my hand, mostly because I won't necessarily know *how* to satisfy those demands. Think of it like this: imagine I'm stranded in the middle of the Mojave Desert with almost no water left. Once that last drop is gone, I might fall into total despair—but since there isn't a single source of water for miles, what exactly is that desperation going to force me to do? What would you do if you were alone in the desert without water? Would you start digging frantically in the sand, hoping against hope that you'd find a spring? Would you just start running in a random direction, praying it leads you out of the dunes? Or would you do something else entirely?
Ronald Rogers27 said:I don't have the time or space to reply to everything you wrote, but I'll try to give you some answers...
You think so? Let’s bet money that if you sit on a hot stove burner and someone cranks it to max, you’re going to jump off almost instantly—or your skin is gonna sizzle. We can also bet that if a crazed guy with a club starts charging at you, you WON'T just stay calm. You’ll react—you'll grab a rock, duck, run, or scramble toward someone else. You'll know exactly how to meet that need, because if you don't, things are going to get ugly, fast.😲
Well, the outlook isn't great. But maybe you could take a second to remember how you ended up in this mess? And why were you careless enough to let it happen in the first place?
If I were stuck in the desert, I'd start thinking. Where am I? Exactly where am I located? Can I figure out North, South, East, or West by looking at the shadows and the sun? What does the terrain look like—is it nothing but sand dunes for miles, or is there something different on the horizon? Are there birds nearby? If so, what kind? Is there any wildlife—snakes, lizards, scorpions—that I could use for food? Are there cacti, and if so, how can I get moisture out of them? I'd focus on conserving energy, finding shade to hide from the sun, and moving at night while resting during the day...
Like you see, it's not nothing; I've got plenty of ideas. I definitely wouldn't act like a headless chicken (I wouldn't just run around aimlessly or dig holes in the sand for no reason). I'd do exactly what I just described. 👍
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:I don't have the time or space to reply to everything you wrote, but I'll try to give you some answers...
You think so? Let’s bet money that if you sit on a hot stove burner and someone cranks it to max, you’re going to jump off almost instantly—or your skin is gonna sizzle. We can also bet that if a crazed guy with a club starts charging at you, you WON'T just stay calm. You’ll react—you'll grab a rock, duck, run, or scramble toward someone else. You'll know exactly how to meet that need, because if you don't, things are going to get ugly, fast.😲
Well, the outlook isn't great. But maybe you could take a second to remember how you ended up in this mess? And why were you careless enough to let it happen in the first place?
If I were stuck in the desert, I'd start thinking. Where am I? Exactly where am I located? Can I figure out North, South, East, or West by looking at the shadows and the sun? What does the terrain look like—is it nothing but sand dunes for miles, or is there something different on the horizon? Are there birds nearby? If so, what kind? Is there any wildlife—snakes, lizards, scorpions—that I could use for food? Are there cacti, and if so, how can I get moisture out of them? I'd focus on conserving energy, finding shade to hide from the sun, and moving at night while resting during the day...
Like you see, it's not nothing; I've got plenty of ideas. I definitely wouldn't act like a headless chicken (I wouldn't just run around aimlessly or dig holes in the sand for no reason). I'd do exactly what I just described. 👍
Ronald Rogers27
Ronald Rogers27 said:I don't have the time or space to reply to everything you wrote, but I'll try to give you some answers...
You think so? Let’s bet money that if you sit on a hot stove burner and someone cranks it to max, you’re going to jump off almost instantly—or your skin is gonna sizzle. We can also bet that if a crazed guy with a club starts charging at you, you WON'T just stay calm. You’ll react—you'll grab a rock, duck, run, or scramble toward someone else. You'll know exactly how to meet that need, because if you don't, things are going to get ugly, fast.😲
Well, the outlook isn't great. But maybe you could take a second to remember how you ended up in this mess? And why were you careless enough to let it happen in the first place?
If I were stuck in the desert, I'd start thinking. Where am I? Exactly where am I located? Can I figure out North, South, East, or West by looking at the shadows and the sun? What does the terrain look like—is it nothing but sand dunes for miles, or is there something different on the horizon? Are there birds nearby? If so, what kind? Is there any wildlife—snakes, lizards, scorpions—that I could use for food? Are there cacti, and if so, how can I get moisture out of them? I'd focus on conserving energy, finding shade to hide from the sun, and moving at night while resting during the day...
Like you see, it's not nothing; I've got plenty of ideas. I definitely wouldn't act like a headless chicken (I wouldn't just run around aimlessly or dig holes in the sand for no reason). I'd do exactly what I just described. 👍
Ronald Rogers27
Samuel Miller21 said:I suspect your primary issue lies in an almost infantile psychological framework, 😁
(which I am essentially diagnosing within yourself, so please don't mistake my intention for a mere attempt at insult)
Looking back through your contributions to these discussions where our paths cross, I notice a recurring set of themes: mortality (the question of why we should assign value to life if everything is transient), selfishness (your various proofs for its existence and why this effectively strips human relationships of any foundation for beauty), and the inherent limitations of human willpower, among others.
To be fair, much of what you say is accurate; life is fleeting, insignificant when viewed against the backdrop of eternity, humans are inherently self-interested, and absolute altruism is a biological impossibility... things a mature adult should be capable of accepting.
Instead, you seem to react to life like an offended child who realizes they didn't get the toy they wanted—because their brother was lent it instead—throwing a tantrum and refusing to settle until someone steps in to tell them that life isn't actually that fleeting, or that altruism can be achieved through some specific formula just to make them feel better.
It feels as though you became stuck at some point during your childhood, and now you are attempting to use intellect to solve existential puzzles that simply cannot be solved, at least not from your current vantage point.
The reality is that you "simply" need to grow up and reach a stage where the truths your mind presents—such as the fact that absolute selflessness does not exist in humans—are both recognized as true and simultaneously bearable, allowing you to still find value, interest, and warmth in human connection despite those facts.
As for how one actually grows up... well, that is quite another matter entirely. 😁
Samuel Miller21 said:I suspect your primary issue lies in an almost infantile psychological framework, 😁
(which I am essentially diagnosing within yourself, so please don't mistake my intention for a mere attempt at insult)
Looking back through your contributions to these discussions where our paths cross, I notice a recurring set of themes: mortality (the question of why we should assign value to life if everything is transient), selfishness (your various proofs for its existence and why this effectively strips human relationships of any foundation for beauty), and the inherent limitations of human willpower, among others.
To be fair, much of what you say is accurate; life is fleeting, insignificant when viewed against the backdrop of eternity, humans are inherently self-interested, and absolute altruism is a biological impossibility... things a mature adult should be capable of accepting.
Instead, you seem to react to life like an offended child who realizes they didn't get the toy they wanted—because their brother was lent it instead—throwing a tantrum and refusing to settle until someone steps in to tell them that life isn't actually that fleeting, or that altruism can be achieved through some specific formula just to make them feel better.
It feels as though you became stuck at some point during your childhood, and now you are attempting to use intellect to solve existential puzzles that simply cannot be solved, at least not from your current vantage point.
The reality is that you "simply" need to grow up and reach a stage where the truths your mind presents—such as the fact that absolute selflessness does not exist in humans—are both recognized as true and simultaneously bearable, allowing you to still find value, interest, and warmth in human connection despite those facts.
As for how one actually grows up... well, that is quite another matter entirely. 😁
Samuel Miller21 said:I suspect your primary issue lies in an almost infantile psychological framework, 😁
(which I am essentially diagnosing within yourself, so please don't mistake my intention for a mere attempt at insult)
Looking back through your contributions to these discussions where our paths cross, I notice a recurring set of themes: mortality (the question of why we should assign value to life if everything is transient), selfishness (your various proofs for its existence and why this effectively strips human relationships of any foundation for beauty), and the inherent limitations of human willpower, among others.
To be fair, much of what you say is accurate; life is fleeting, insignificant when viewed against the backdrop of eternity, humans are inherently self-interested, and absolute altruism is a biological impossibility... things a mature adult should be capable of accepting.
Instead, you seem to react to life like an offended child who realizes they didn't get the toy they wanted—because their brother was lent it instead—throwing a tantrum and refusing to settle until someone steps in to tell them that life isn't actually that fleeting, or that altruism can be achieved through some specific formula just to make them feel better.
It feels as though you became stuck at some point during your childhood, and now you are attempting to use intellect to solve existential puzzles that simply cannot be solved, at least not from your current vantage point.
The reality is that you "simply" need to grow up and reach a stage where the truths your mind presents—such as the fact that absolute selflessness does not exist in humans—are both recognized as true and simultaneously bearable, allowing you to still find value, interest, and warmth in human connection despite those facts.
As for how one actually grows up... well, that is quite another matter entirely. 😁
lonegardener said:Well, now. 😍
Well, look, I’ll take the hit here—it's my own fault for being vague. I honestly thought we were on the same page and weren't talking about these kinds of trivial cases. You know how it goes with Fermat's Last Theorem: $x^n + y^n = z^n$ has no integer solutions for any $n > 2$... *except* for the trivial ones. I tend to gloss over that "except for the trivial ones" part because, in my head, it feels like a given.
Look, of course I’m going to open an umbrella if it starts pouring. That’s just common sense. But were you actually *forced* to move to the States under circumstances that are logically identical to that? I don't think so. Most real-life situations aren't nearly as trivial as the example you're using. In the real world, life almost always presents a set of pros and cons. The actual problem arises when you're unable to weigh those conflicting sides against each other. In the examples you provided, there is only a "pro" and absolutely no "con." There's no hesitation and no doubt, so naturally, there isn't a problem to solve.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately... seriously, a lot. So, tell me—are you absolutely certain this all comes down to my own negligence? Why couldn't you consider that this might just be a string of bad luck, something completely out of my control? Is there some unwritten rule I'm missing here? That a person is always, inherently, the architect of their own misfortune?
Spot on—that’s pretty much how I’d approach it too. But let’s broaden the perspective a bit. Imagine you wake up naked in the middle of the Mojave Desert, and next to you is a canteen of water that you estimate will last about five days. You realize you’re a rational being, but you also notice you have total amnesia. You don't even know your own name, let alone how you ended up out there. Was someone placed here intentionally? Is this some kind of experiment? Did a natural disaster strike? There are simply no answers.
Now, regarding those mechanisms you described above. To be honest, I'm not an expert on the actual survival odds deep in the desert... whether one can actually find water the way you suggest. Maybe there aren't any cacti anywhere, maybe there isn't any other life... anyway, that's beside the point. The whole thing hinges on those five days; the desert is just a mental image. You KNOW that five days is roughly the window you have left. Pick whatever imagery works for you; if the desert doesn't fit, imagine you're drifting in the middle of the Pacific with no way to desalinate the water, and no rain is coming for at least five days. It really doesn't matter.
If you haven't caught my drift yet—though it seems obvious to me—I am clearly describing that existential state of "thrownness into the world." For me personally, it triggers the exact feeling Jean-Paul Sartre captured in Nausea. You could argue that I'm "reducing" reality or ignoring "important" details, but I don't see it that way. Someone could look at this desert scenario and say, "It's not all bad; you could collect grains of sand and marvel at their shapes; you could doodle art in the dunes; you could watch the stunning shades of blue in the sky shift throughout the day; when night falls, you could gaze at the stars and wonder if there's life on other planets," and so on. Of course, one can always find a distraction, no argument there... I certainly always find some way to keep myself busy, even if it's just writing nonsense on a forum 😬
lonegardener said:Well, now. 😍
Well, look, I’ll take the hit here—it's my own fault for being vague. I honestly thought we were on the same page and weren't talking about these kinds of trivial cases. You know how it goes with Fermat's Last Theorem: $x^n + y^n = z^n$ has no integer solutions for any $n > 2$... *except* for the trivial ones. I tend to gloss over that "except for the trivial ones" part because, in my head, it feels like a given.
Look, of course I’m going to open an umbrella if it starts pouring. That’s just common sense. But were you actually *forced* to move to the States under circumstances that are logically identical to that? I don't think so. Most real-life situations aren't nearly as trivial as the example you're using. In the real world, life almost always presents a set of pros and cons. The actual problem arises when you're unable to weigh those conflicting sides against each other. In the examples you provided, there is only a "pro" and absolutely no "con." There's no hesitation and no doubt, so naturally, there isn't a problem to solve.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately... seriously, a lot. So, tell me—are you absolutely certain this all comes down to my own negligence? Why couldn't you consider that this might just be a string of bad luck, something completely out of my control? Is there some unwritten rule I'm missing here? That a person is always, inherently, the architect of their own misfortune?
Spot on—that’s pretty much how I’d approach it too. But let’s broaden the perspective a bit. Imagine you wake up naked in the middle of the Mojave Desert, and next to you is a canteen of water that you estimate will last about five days. You realize you’re a rational being, but you also notice you have total amnesia. You don't even know your own name, let alone how you ended up out there. Was someone placed here intentionally? Is this some kind of experiment? Did a natural disaster strike? There are simply no answers.
Now, regarding those mechanisms you described above. To be honest, I'm not an expert on the actual survival odds deep in the desert... whether one can actually find water the way you suggest. Maybe there aren't any cacti anywhere, maybe there isn't any other life... anyway, that's beside the point. The whole thing hinges on those five days; the desert is just a mental image. You KNOW that five days is roughly the window you have left. Pick whatever imagery works for you; if the desert doesn't fit, imagine you're drifting in the middle of the Pacific with no way to desalinate the water, and no rain is coming for at least five days. It really doesn't matter.
If you haven't caught my drift yet—though it seems obvious to me—I am clearly describing that existential state of "thrownness into the world." For me personally, it triggers the exact feeling Jean-Paul Sartre captured in Nausea. You could argue that I'm "reducing" reality or ignoring "important" details, but I don't see it that way. Someone could look at this desert scenario and say, "It's not all bad; you could collect grains of sand and marvel at their shapes; you could doodle art in the dunes; you could watch the stunning shades of blue in the sky shift throughout the day; when night falls, you could gaze at the stars and wonder if there's life on other planets," and so on. Of course, one can always find a distraction, no argument there... I certainly always find some way to keep myself busy, even if it's just writing nonsense on a forum 😬
lonegardener said:Well, now. 😍
Well, look, I’ll take the hit here—it's my own fault for being vague. I honestly thought we were on the same page and weren't talking about these kinds of trivial cases. You know how it goes with Fermat's Last Theorem: $x^n + y^n = z^n$ has no integer solutions for any $n > 2$... *except* for the trivial ones. I tend to gloss over that "except for the trivial ones" part because, in my head, it feels like a given.
Look, of course I’m going to open an umbrella if it starts pouring. That’s just common sense. But were you actually *forced* to move to the States under circumstances that are logically identical to that? I don't think so. Most real-life situations aren't nearly as trivial as the example you're using. In the real world, life almost always presents a set of pros and cons. The actual problem arises when you're unable to weigh those conflicting sides against each other. In the examples you provided, there is only a "pro" and absolutely no "con." There's no hesitation and no doubt, so naturally, there isn't a problem to solve.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking lately... seriously, a lot. So, tell me—are you absolutely certain this all comes down to my own negligence? Why couldn't you consider that this might just be a string of bad luck, something completely out of my control? Is there some unwritten rule I'm missing here? That a person is always, inherently, the architect of their own misfortune?
Spot on—that’s pretty much how I’d approach it too. But let’s broaden the perspective a bit. Imagine you wake up naked in the middle of the Mojave Desert, and next to you is a canteen of water that you estimate will last about five days. You realize you’re a rational being, but you also notice you have total amnesia. You don't even know your own name, let alone how you ended up out there. Was someone placed here intentionally? Is this some kind of experiment? Did a natural disaster strike? There are simply no answers.
Now, regarding those mechanisms you described above. To be honest, I'm not an expert on the actual survival odds deep in the desert... whether one can actually find water the way you suggest. Maybe there aren't any cacti anywhere, maybe there isn't any other life... anyway, that's beside the point. The whole thing hinges on those five days; the desert is just a mental image. You KNOW that five days is roughly the window you have left. Pick whatever imagery works for you; if the desert doesn't fit, imagine you're drifting in the middle of the Pacific with no way to desalinate the water, and no rain is coming for at least five days. It really doesn't matter.
If you haven't caught my drift yet—though it seems obvious to me—I am clearly describing that existential state of "thrownness into the world." For me personally, it triggers the exact feeling Jean-Paul Sartre captured in Nausea. You could argue that I'm "reducing" reality or ignoring "important" details, but I don't see it that way. Someone could look at this desert scenario and say, "It's not all bad; you could collect grains of sand and marvel at their shapes; you could doodle art in the dunes; you could watch the stunning shades of blue in the sky shift throughout the day; when night falls, you could gaze at the stars and wonder if there's life on other planets," and so on. Of course, one can always find a distraction, no argument there... I certainly always find some way to keep myself busy, even if it's just writing nonsense on a forum 😬
lonegardener said:What should I do when I'm starting to lose my cool? 😲 🤷
Sandra Parker3 said:getting a whole new identity
Sandra Parker3 said:Honestly, it was a completely serious response. 🙂
You basically have to start everything from scratch... if you can even figure out how to apply that to a situation where you're already stuck.
An accident only counts if you actually screw up so badly that you have to start the whole thing over from scratch.
So you end up with a few different versions of your unfinished self, and honestly, that’s just a mess.
Quincy:I honestly can't tell if you've genuinely mixed things up here, though there's a fair chance you actually have. 🙄
lonegardener Asks:
Seriously though—when someone actually undergoes a change (and I mean a deliberate choice, not just some passive thing that happens to you because life throws you a curveball), what is it *inside* us that actually drives that shift? And more importantly, can that core mechanism itself be changed?
It feels like everything just stays exactly the same to me... like, even when you're actively trying to change, that core part of you driving the transformation remains untouched. Or am I just overthinking this?
I think—and I could be wrong here—that THAT shouldn't change, though I won't actually name THAT because I have my own specific way of referring to it. 🤣
Why do you even care? Are you trying to change who you are, or are you just looking to tear everything down? (Watch out, this could get dangerous.)
Jesse Harris5 said:hmmm
So, I’m jumping in here to respond to that absolute mountain of a post from APEMANTA
.
Look, I'm not trying to argue that vanity or selfishness are actually "good"—I won't go there—but I will say this: true altruism? It just doesn't exist...
...there really are only three flavors of selfishness:
1. When you do something purely for yourself and nobody else, and you're fully aware of that fact (that's what society calls plain old "selfishness").
2. When you do something for others because you genuinely get a kick out of it (this is what people call "selflessness").
3. When you do things for others, but not actually *for* them—you do it because you feel guilty and just want to ease your own conscience. This is honestly the worst kind of selfishness, because it ends up undermining people. You end up doing things for them that they really ought to be doing for themselves to grow, so by "helping," you're actually stopping them from becoming better versions of themselves!
I've spent some time analyzing my own head lately and realized I totally see what you were getting at in your post (sorry, I can't quite tell if you're a guy or a girl from your profile right now... 😁), and I definitely notice all these different types of selfishness cycling through me depending on whatever mood I'm in.
As far as I'm concerned, there isn't any other type of selfishness out there—at least not one I've stumbled upon yet—and "selflessness" (if we're being honest with ourselves for once) is basically an illusion.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I have to tell you that this is perfectly normal. It's just how things work; that's just the way the world is, and that's just how people are built.
The only thing you can really do is keep a close eye on that third category—type 3. Just try to stay mindful of it constantly, and when you catch yourself slipping into that mode, do everything in your power to pivot back to one of the other categories. If you don't, you might accidentally stunt the growth of everyone around you.
Just remember, the only way to truly understand the world is to first understand yourself.
I'm still pretty much a novice at all this, but the more I learn about myself, the more I realize that everyone else operates on this same principle—they just lie to themselves about being perfect little saints. 😁.
By engaging in this kind of "self-analysis," you're actually on the right path to stripping away the masks and seeing who you really are, which lets you show your true self to the world too. Everyone who refuses to think about this is honestly just missing out!
Etoga, enjoy the journey!!!
Samuel Miller21 said:I find myself deeply frustrated by these reflexive behaviors of mine—those moments when I find myself entangling myself in matters that hold absolutely no purpose or significance, driven solely by a surge of narcissism or mere habit. In those moments, it feels as though I am trampling over everything I actually value in life. It is as if some temporary persona, shaped entirely by my environment and completely disconnected from my true self, takes control, causing me to speak or think things that don't matter to me in the slightest.
It weighs on me because these episodes are such a waste of time; they tend to cloud my vision, making me lose sight of all the beautiful, interesting, and exhilarating aspects of existence.
Ultimately, these impulses lead toward a dull mire of exhausted ideas that are endlessly recycled—worn out and hollow, yet always delivered with the misplaced conviction that something profound has been said. As Kundera once observed: many people, very few ideas.
To be fair, I am specifically referring to those reflexive reactions where one acts out of compulsion rather than genuine interest. Not all philosophical inquiry needs to be this way; discourse fueled by actual passion is always far more engaging and inspiring.
But what is the problem with that?
Lately, what haunts me most is the notion that we might be entirely undeterministic—that we could shift in any direction at any given moment. It isn't that I am suddenly overflowing with self-satisfaction in every aspect of my life, but rather this question: if no part of me is determined, then what am I? Am I merely a collection of characteristics that happened to coincide in time and space, and am I supposed to accept that accidental cluster as my "self"?
Just as much as the idea of absolute determinism terrifies me, so does the idea of ultimate indeterminism. Imagine if everything rested solely upon human will and choice... something so precarious, volatile, and unstable. 😲
Total indeterminism shatters my concept of an individual core. If I am defined by nothing, then I can believe in neither a purpose for my existence nor a necessity for my presence in the natural order. 🤷
Unless, of course, nature is nothing more than a statistician managing random events. 😁
Samuel Miller21 said:I find myself deeply frustrated by these reflexive behaviors of mine—those moments when I find myself entangling myself in matters that hold absolutely no purpose or significance, driven solely by a surge of narcissism or mere habit. In those moments, it feels as though I am trampling over everything I actually value in life. It is as if some temporary persona, shaped entirely by my environment and completely disconnected from my true self, takes control, causing me to speak or think things that don't matter to me in the slightest.
It weighs on me because these episodes are such a waste of time; they tend to cloud my vision, making me lose sight of all the beautiful, interesting, and exhilarating aspects of existence.
Ultimately, these impulses lead toward a dull mire of exhausted ideas that are endlessly recycled—worn out and hollow, yet always delivered with the misplaced conviction that something profound has been said. As Kundera once observed: many people, very few ideas.
To be fair, I am specifically referring to those reflexive reactions where one acts out of compulsion rather than genuine interest. Not all philosophical inquiry needs to be this way; discourse fueled by actual passion is always far more engaging and inspiring.
But what is the problem with that?
Lately, what haunts me most is the notion that we might be entirely undeterministic—that we could shift in any direction at any given moment. It isn't that I am suddenly overflowing with self-satisfaction in every aspect of my life, but rather this question: if no part of me is determined, then what am I? Am I merely a collection of characteristics that happened to coincide in time and space, and am I supposed to accept that accidental cluster as my "self"?
Just as much as the idea of absolute determinism terrifies me, so does the idea of ultimate indeterminism. Imagine if everything rested solely upon human will and choice... something so precarious, volatile, and unstable. 😲
Total indeterminism shatters my concept of an individual core. If I am defined by nothing, then I can believe in neither a purpose for my existence nor a necessity for my presence in the natural order. 🤷
Unless, of course, nature is nothing more than a statistician managing random events. 😁
By early November 1915, I had already grasped the fundamental tenets of G.'s system regarding the human condition. The primary pillar he emphasized was the ABSENCE OF UNITY WITHIN A PERSON.
- He argued that our greatest fallacy is believing that a person remains a singular, constant entity. A person is never the same for long. They rarely maintain consistency for even half an hour; they are in a state of perpetual flux. We operate under the delusion that if a man is named John, he remains John indefinitely. That is far from the truth. One moment he is John, the next he is Peter, and a minute later he has morphed into Nicholas, Sergei, Matthew, or Simon. Yet, we persist in thinking we are dealing with the same John. You might believe John is incapable of a certain act—say, lying. Then, suddenly, you find him caught in a lie, utterly stunned that such a thing was possible. In reality, John doesn't lie; it was Nicholas who lied. When the opportunity arises, Nicholas CANNOT RESIST LYING. You would be genuinely shocked if you realized how many versions of John and Nicholas are multiplying within a single individual. If you ever learn to observe them, you won't need to go to the movies.
- I asked him, "Does this have anything to do with the consciousness of separate parts and organs within the body?" I understood the concept, as I often felt the reality of these distinct consciousnesses. I know that it isn't just isolated organs; every part of the body possesses its own functions and its own localized awareness. The right hand has one consciousness, while the left has another. Do you give that any thought?
- Not quite, G. replied. These biological consciousnesses exist, but they are essentially harmless. Each knows its place and its duty. Hands know they must work; feet know they must walk. But these characters—these Johns, Nicholases, and Peters—are a different breed entirely. Every single one of them claims the title of 'I.' They all view themselves as the protagonist, and none of them care to recognize the others. Each one acts as a dictator for a brief hour, doing exactly as they please, while the others foot the bill later. There is no order among them. Whichever one rises to power becomes the master; he lashes everyone else about indiscriminately without a second thought. Then, in the very next moment, someone else grabs the whip and strikes him. And so it continues throughout a lifetime. Imagine a country where anyone can be king for five minutes, and during those five minutes, they can wreak havoc on the entire nation at will. That is the essence of our lives.
...
When discussing evolution, one must grasp from the outset that mechanical evolution is an impossibility. Human evolution is the evolution of consciousness. And 'CONSCIOUSNESS CANNOT DEVELOP UNCONSCIOUSLY.' The evolution of a human being is the evolution of their will, and 'will' cannot develop unconsciously. Human evolution is the evolution of one's capacity to act, and 'acting' cannot be the byproduct of things simply 'happening.'
...
In nearly every conversation, G. would circle back to the lack of unity in man.
He noted that one of the most profound errors humans make—one we must internalize—is the illusion of the 'self.'
The person as we commonly understand them—the 'human-machine,' the individual who cannot truly 'act' but rather has things 'happen' to them—cannot possess a stable, unified 'I.' Their sense of self shifts as rapidly as their thoughts, emotions, and moods. They commit a massive error by assuming they are a consistent person; in reality, they are ALWAYS A DIFFERENT PERSON than they were just a moment ago.
»MAN HAS NO PERMANENT OR UNCHANGING SELF. Every thought, every mood, every desire, and every sensation proclaims 'I.' In every instance, we take it for granted that this 'I' belongs to the WHOLE, to the entire person, and that the thought, desire, or aversion is an expression of that Whole. There is actually no basis for such a claim. Every human thought and desire emerges and exists entirely independently of the Whole. Furthermore, the Whole never expresses itself, simply because it exists only as a physical entity or an abstract idea. A person does not have an individual 'I.' Instead, there exist hundreds or thousands of distinct, tiny 'I's, often completely unknown to one another, sometimes even hostile toward one another—all unique and incompatible. Every minute, every single moment, a person thinks or says 'I.' And at each of those moments, that 'I' is different. Right now, it might be a thought, then a desire, then a feeling, then a thought again, in an endless cycle. MAN IS A MULTITUDE. A person's name is a legion.«
The constant tug-of-war between those countless little "I's" within us—that frantic struggle for dominance—is actually orchestrated by nothing more than random external triggers. It’s quite absurd when you think about it. A sudden burst of warmth from the sun or a beautiful afternoon can instantly stir up one specific group of "I's," while a cold, foggy morning or a heavy downpour will summon an entirely different set of identities, triggering a completely different cascade of associations and impulses. The tragedy is that there is virtually nothing within a person capable of actually controlling these various "I's," primarily because we are blissfully unaware they even exist; most people simply drift through life riding on the coattails of whichever "I" happened to be in charge at that exact moment. Now, some of these "I's" are certainly more forceful than others, but don't mistake that for conscious strength. That power isn't earned; it’s merely a byproduct of chance or some mechanical stimulus from the outside world. Things like our education, the urge to mimic others, what we read, religious indoctrination, social hierarchies, or even the flashy allure of modern political slogans all serve to forge incredibly potent "I's" within the human psyche—identities so dominant they effectively steamroll over the weaker ones. Ultimately, this entire mosaic of "I's" that constitutes a human personality is just the end result of external pressures. A person lacks true individuality. There is no single, unified, grand "I." Instead, a human being is merely a fractured collection of many tiny, competing "I's."
And here is the kicker: every single one of those isolated little "I's" feels entitled to call itself "Jane," to act in the name of "Jane," to agree or disagree, to make promises, and to make decisions that some other "I"—or perhaps the collective "Jane"—will eventually have to deal with. This perfectly explains why people are so notoriously good at making resolutions and so spectacularly bad at following through. A person decides, with great conviction, that they will start waking up early tomorrow morning. One "I," or perhaps a small faction of "I's," made that executive decision. However, the actual physical act of getting out of bed is a task that falls to a *different* "I," one who likely has absolutely no idea the decision was ever made and certainly doesn't care to cooperate. Naturally, the person stays asleep, only to wake up in the evening and decide once again to become an early riser. In certain circumstances, this internal fragmentation can lead to devastating consequences. A minor, accidental "I" might make a promise—not to oneself, mind you, but to someone else—simply out of vanity or a fleeting sense of satisfaction. Then that "I" vanishes, leaving the rest of the person—this complex assembly of other "I's" who are entirely innocent of the crime—to pay the price for a lifetime. It is the fundamental tragedy of the human condition that any random, insignificant "I" has the authority to sign checks and issue promises, while the actual person, the "Jane" in question, is left holding the bag. Sometimes, a whole human life is nothing more than a long, weary process of settling debts incurred by these tiny, accidental "I's."
Eastern teachings often employ various allegorical metaphors to paint this picture of the human soul.
For instance, one teaching compares a human being to a large house filled with a massive staff of servants, yet there is no master and no manager in sight. The servants have completely forgotten their duties; nobody wants to perform the work they were meant to do; everyone is busy trying to play the boss, if only for a fleeting moment; and in such a state of total anarchy, the household is in constant peril. The only hope would be for a group of the more sensible servants to band together and appoint a TEMPORARY manager—essentially a DEPUTY MANAGER. This DEPUTY MANAGER could then step in, put every servant back in their proper place, and ensure everyone performs their specific role: the cook returns to the kitchen, the driver to the stables, the gardener to the garden, and so on. In this way, the "house" can be organized and prepared for the arrival of the true manager, who will ultimately prepare the estate for the Master's arrival.
This comparison between a person and a house waiting for its master appears frequently in Eastern traditions that have preserved traces of ancient wisdom, and, as far as I am aware, it echoes through various forms in numerous Gospel parables as well.