Can spirituality exist without God?

Kenneth Peterson5 said:Look, whether it's logical or not—I don't know, man—but I definitely don't get it.
If I don't actually have free will, then I can't choose anything because everything's already been decided for me... but then how come I keep choosing to "reject" exactly what I'm supposedly stuck with?

That is precisely how the dynamics of existence unfold. 🙂 We wouldn't perceive anything as an event, a progression, or a change if there weren't opposing forces within ourselves and our environment creating that sensation. While you struggle between "I want" and "I don't want," that very dilemma is "given" to maintain the illusion of free will. This sense of choice—as we experience it—is essential for the "self" to exist as something distinct from the rest of the world. It creates the necessary mirror effect for reality to function.

placidharbor7 said:And that right there is exactly how "lack of free will" shows up! It’s this constant tug-of-war that tricks our tiny bit of focus on our inner workings. Poor little humans actually think they’re having these deep "internal debates" with themselves, don't they? But really, they're just acting in the name of some "higher purpose" or those big values you see listed in everyone else's textbooks.

The "I," or the self, is all woven together from that one single strand of "(un)will." Stop trying to split it apart and you'll finally see the whole picture!

But what even are these "internal dramas" anyway?

mistybison said:That is precisely how the dynamics of existence unfold. 🙂 We wouldn't perceive anything as an event, a progression, or a change if there weren't opposing forces within ourselves and our environment creating that sensation. While you struggle between "I want" and "I don't want," that very dilemma is "given" to maintain the illusion of free will. This sense of choice—as we experience it—is essential for the "self" to exist as something distinct from the rest of the world. It creates the necessary mirror effect for reality to function.

So, do we need to feel that conflict just to realize what's actually real?

mistybison said:That is precisely how the dynamics of existence unfold. 🙂 We wouldn't perceive anything as an event, a progression, or a change if there weren't opposing forces within ourselves and our environment creating that sensation. While you struggle between "I want" and "I don't want," that very dilemma is "given" to maintain the illusion of free will. This sense of choice—as we experience it—is essential for the "self" to exist as something distinct from the rest of the world. It creates the necessary mirror effect for reality to function.

I tend to think that free will isn't just some grand illusion, provided we stop looking at life as if we're just uncovering pre-written scripts and start seeing it as an active process of creation...

mistybison said:That is precisely how the dynamics of existence unfold. 🙂 We wouldn't perceive anything as an event, a progression, or a change if there weren't opposing forces within ourselves and our environment creating that sensation. While you struggle between "I want" and "I don't want," that very dilemma is "given" to maintain the illusion of free will. This sense of choice—as we experience it—is essential for the "self" to exist as something distinct from the rest of the world. It creates the necessary mirror effect for reality to function.

I honestly don't follow this logic at all... 🤷

Brenda Cook4 said:There is definitely a bit of a hurdle here, mostly because spirituality has traditionally been framed through this dualistic lens of the natural versus the supernatural. It’s that classic split between spirit and body—a divided existence.

But, if we redefine "spirituality" as our emotional response to simply *being* in this world—that sense of wonder and active exploration of our surroundings, without needing to summon any divine entities—then the answer to your question is a resounding yes.

When we ask those big questions—who are we, where did we come from, where are we headed, what is our purpose, what can we actually know, or what is the true nature of reality?—anyone asking them will inevitably run into God, angels, demons, past lives, adepts, forces, nature, emptiness... everything. Every single answer is just an attempt to transcend the limitations of daily life; it's a search for meaning.

In my spare time, I dabble in amateur astronomy. I’m often out at night with my telescope, observing the stars and jotting down some notes... and honestly, more than once, I've found myself tearing up just from the privilege of being able to witness it all. I am in deep awe. It's that feeling of oneness, that concept in Zen where every new moment is dependent on everything else. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything that appears arises because of something else. In those moments, it isn't even about my perspective or my angle of observation—it's just that intuitive connection to nature... to the universe... a state of total openness. It feels like coming home.

aha, sure... and which part of the US are you living in where you can actually see a clear sky for stargazing?

😁

steeleagle13 said:aha, sure... and which part of the US are you living in where you can actually see a clear sky for stargazing?

😁

NYC😁 is a long way from "clear skies"... but I guess you manage.

mistybison said:Just a few thoughts...

If "spirituality" is defined as self-discovery, then believing in God isn't strictly necessary. In fact, you don't even need to believe in a "soul" or any other concept we can't verify with absolute certainty. It seems to me that when embarking on this journey, one is better off traveling light—stripping away everything that might clutter the mind or lead us astray through preconceived patterns of thought. Nothing more than self-belief is required, and most of us are quite certain of our own existence. 😉

On the other hand, if "spirituality" is a search for God, then faith in God becomes the prerequisite for the journey. Typically, we look for God in the external world first before turning our gaze inward. While the process of self-discovery involves searching for the source of our being and our purpose, seeking God means looking for the entity we believe to be our ultimate origin and meaning. Have you ever noticed how reality seems to reshape itself to align with our convictions? Once we commit to a belief, we suddenly encounter endless evidence supporting it, almost as if the universe is conspiring to confirm we are right, making it incredibly easy to convince ourselves that we have found the absolute TRUTH. However, just as nothing in this world is permanent, our beliefs shift as well. Throughout my life, my understanding of "God" has evolved many times, mirroring my own internal growth.

Who are you searching for—yourself or God?

There are countless paths toward self-knowledge and infinite ways to seek God. Some follow the well-trodden trails left by those before us, while others choose to blaze their own unique path.

Are you still walking the spiritual path, or have you reached its end? Have you truly grasped the essence of yourself or God? Is such a feat even possible? Or is it more practical to simply let go? How can you be sure that what you claim to KNOW isn't merely FAITH in ideas that happen to suit your current stage of personal development? How do we distinguish between FAITH and KNOWLEDGE in a spiritual context?

Man, look at how you view God:

God is a product of the mind
or
God is the mind

Kenneth Peterson5 said:But what even are these "internal dramas" anyway?

So, do we need to feel that conflict just to realize what's actually real?

It’s that strange sensation where you feel like you’re rushing toward some version of yourself that exists "outside."
But honestly, isn't that perspective a bit backwards? Think about it: "YOU" are the core on the inside, while everything else is out there—even that very concept of an "inner life" is just part of the vastness outside of your true self!

Kenneth Peterson5 said:But what even are these "internal dramas" anyway?

So, do we need to feel that conflict just to realize what's actually real?

In what sense?

rustymaker5 said:I tend to think that free will isn't just some grand illusion, provided we stop looking at life as if we're just uncovering pre-written scripts and start seeing it as an active process of creation...

I honestly don't follow this logic at all... 🤷

If we view existence as "the self within the world," where there is a clear divide between "me" and "everything else," then we naturally question whether free will exists. After much thought and searching for evidence, people arrive at various conclusions. From that specific perspective, the concept of free will is a valid subject for discussion. However, if we look through the lens of unity—where the self and the world are one—then questions regarding free will or freedom become unnecessary, as does any further speculation on the matter.

steeleagle13 said:Man, look at how you view God:

God is a product of the mind
or
God is the mind

Are you asking if God is an idea created by our minds, or if our mind is actually God/the creator?

placidharbor7 said:It’s that strange sensation where you feel like you’re rushing toward some version of yourself that exists "outside."
But honestly, isn't that perspective a bit backwards? Think about it: "YOU" are the core on the inside, while everything else is out there—even that very concept of an "inner life" is just part of the vastness outside of your true self!

So if "everything is outside," including our supposed "inner life," does that mean one thing swallows the other up? Like, does "everything external" encompass "everything internal" because, at the end of the day, everything we feel inside is just what builds the world outside?

mistybison said:In what sense?

If we view existence as "the self within the world," where there is a clear divide between "me" and "everything else," then we naturally question whether free will exists. After much thought and searching for evidence, people arrive at various conclusions. From that specific perspective, the concept of free will is a valid subject for discussion. However, if we look through the lens of unity—where the self and the world are one—then questions regarding free will or freedom become unnecessary, as does any further speculation on the matter.

Are you asking if God is an idea created by our minds, or if our mind is actually God/the creator?

You brought up this whole illusion of "free will"—this thing we're supposedly "given" so we can play the game of choosing between opposites, you know? Like "yes vs. no" or "left vs. right."
That’s why I was wondering: do we actually need to experience those contradictions just to realize what's already been set in stone?

Kenneth Peterson5 said:So if "everything is outside," including our supposed "inner life," does that mean one thing swallows the other up? Like, does "everything external" encompass "everything internal" because, at the end of the day, everything we feel inside is just what builds the world outside?

You brought up this whole illusion of "free will"—this thing we're supposedly "given" so we can play the game of choosing between opposites, you know? Like "yes vs. no" or "left vs. right."
That’s why I was wondering: do we actually need to experience those contradictions just to realize what's already been set in stone?

Seriously, what are you doing using those short, telegram-style answers for such deep, philosophical questions?

placidharbor7 said:Seriously, what are you doing using those short, telegram-style answers for such deep, philosophical questions?

I just toss them into a little box labeled "Wisdom" and keep it right next to my pillow—maybe if I stare at it long enough, it'll actually jumpstart some brain cells and fix my circulation.
or
I try to actually talk to people who make big claims, because honestly, I just want to know the logic behind their nonsense; call it curiosity, I guess.

(Look, if you decide to stop answering my questions, you’re basically directly responsible for my descent into progressive dementia, but since this is all just some sort of digital spirituality, I'll let it slide. )

Kenneth Peterson5 said:I just toss them into a little box labeled "Wisdom" and keep it right next to my pillow—maybe if I stare at it long enough, it'll actually jumpstart some brain cells and fix my circulation.
or
I try to actually talk to people who make big claims, because honestly, I just want to know the logic behind their nonsense; call it curiosity, I guess.

(Look, if you decide to stop answering my questions, you’re basically directly responsible for my descent into progressive dementia, but since this is all just some sort of digital spirituality, I'll let it slide. )

Isn't curiosity basically what journalism is all about? To me, spiritual seeking is like breathing—it's the very lifeblood of existence. Do you really think one can chase a daily headline sensation while claiming to be deeply, personally immersed in the soul?

placidharbor7 said:Isn't curiosity basically what journalism is all about? To me, spiritual seeking is like breathing—it's the very lifeblood of existence. Do you really think one can chase a daily headline sensation while claiming to be deeply, personally immersed in the soul?

Look, I’m hitting you with these questions because you’re making big-time claims here. And if you’re gonna make a claim, you better actually back it up and explain yourself.
For instance—if you’re insisting that spiritual seeking is this vital, pulsing life force, then you need to prove you actually get what that means before you start trashing journalism as being less "deeply personal."

If you decide to dodge my questions, I’m gonna take that as a sign that you’ve got zero interest in actually talking this through.

Later,

Kenneth Peterson5 said:Look, I’m hitting you with these questions because you’re making big-time claims here. And if you’re gonna make a claim, you better actually back it up and explain yourself.
For instance—if you’re insisting that spiritual seeking is this vital, pulsing life force, then you need to prove you actually get what that means before you start trashing journalism as being less "deeply personal."

If you decide to dodge my questions, I’m gonna take that as a sign that you’ve got zero interest in actually talking this through.

Later,

Here’s the thing: "explanations" can only take you so far. Extroverted learning is one thing, but true realization is always an intensely introverted, deeply personal journey.
As long as The Seeker keeps chasing external sources, they haven't truly found themselves or even begun to grasp their own essence. Honestly, it sounds like YOU are the one failing to show any real "interest" here, not placidharbor7.

A true master won't settle for a one-sided conversation. Real dialogue requires a natural counter-question: So tell me, Kenneth Peterson5, what have you actually discovered about YOURSELF so far?

Kenneth Peterson5 said:So if "everything is outside," including our supposed "inner life," does that mean one thing swallows the other up? Like, does "everything external" encompass "everything internal" because, at the end of the day, everything we feel inside is just what builds the world outside?

You brought up this whole illusion of "free will"—this thing we're supposedly "given" so we can play the game of choosing between opposites, you know? Like "yes vs. no" or "left vs. right."
That’s why I was wondering: do we actually need to experience those contradictions just to realize what's already been set in stone?

I couldn't say for sure, as I was simply describing how things appear to me. It isn't meant to be an absolute truth you have to accept.