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Us vs. Them: The psychology of communication

Started by swiftcobra15 · · 👁 6 views · 53 replies

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Participants swiftcobra15Brenda Cook4Jonathan Brooks8Sean Cruzrustymaker5rowdyhawk10Harold James9Edward Flores4Kenneth Peterson5darkjackal85steeleagle2Sandra Wilson68Ethan Kim4William Gonzalez3Dennis Rogers6Jerry Green59ironmarlin1electrictiger70
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#1 ·

I was reading an article in The Wall Street Journal about that famous short film "Sedition"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1207...mEditorialPage
and I honestly can't believe such a provocative movie caused such a minimal reaction.
To put it simply, the American article argues that this film
didn't spark massive backlash because moderate Muslims see it
as an attack on extremists, while extremists actually think the film is OK
since every word in the Quran comes from God, so if it says there
is a need to kill unbelievers, they take it literally.
The author half-jokingly suggests that with just a few tweaks, the film could almost be used as promotional material for Islamist terrorists.

Then, I stumble upon a Canadian website reporting something completely different:


The wave of insults against Islamic sanctities continues in the West, and we are seeing new dirty tactics being played out in certain European countries. On the contrary, there has been an increase in vigilance and solidarity among Muslims to neutralize such conspiracies. The latest example of these plots is the anti-Islamic film "Sedition."

http://canadian.irib.ir/index.php?opt...6206&Itemid=39

The moment US lawmaker announces plans for a film critical of Islam, Washington D.C. hit the panic button. The US government warned of Muslim boycotts, riots and terror.
But two weeks after the Internet release of the 15-minute film, it's still rather quiet. "Sedition," English for "strife," attracted millions of viewers in the first couple of hours alone but so far little strife. New York is not burning and the mythical urban street remains calm. Rather, the video has prompted a refreshing dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1207...mEditorialPage


http://www.themoviefitna.com/




Now I'm genuinely confused about who is telling more of the truth here, and why.
You can watch the clip yourself and decide what you think.
The message is pretty clear-cut.


My main question is: is it possible for one group to interpret the same message
as anti-Islamic, while another sees it as merely anti-Islamist (or is that distinction lost on some people?)
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#2 ·
I watched a little over half the movie, and honestly, I think I've seen enough.
Quotes can be incredibly brutal, but you'd find even darker stuff in the Old Testament.
So, if we’re taking things literally, both the Bible and the Quran could easily serve
as blueprints for the worst kinds of crimes. It all comes down to how you interpret them, though.

In the hands of a predator, even a phone book becomes a menu.

Ultimately, my take is that the film isn't attacking Islam itself, but rather those twisted interpretations of the Quran.
Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#3 ·
I’ve already seen this movie before.

And let’s be real, a phone directory isn't exactly the Quran or the Old Testament.

Besides, we aren't even talking about democratic political correctness anymore—this is clearly just plain old fear.

If we keep dancing around the issue instead of facing it head-on, it’s going to lead us all straight downhill.
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#4 ·
I remember seeing a bluebird perched on my backyard fence this morning. It was such a quiet, beautiful moment to start the day. kaže:
If we keep dodging the core issue instead of facing it head-on, I fear we’re all heading straight for a disaster. It feels like we're just circling the drain.


What does it actually mean to confront a problem head-on? I remember facing a similar hurdle during my time working at a firm in Chicago, and it really changed how I view challenges.

I honestly see a major issue here, specifically when certain incredibly powerful interest groups start pulling all the strings. I remember seeing this happen during a local town hall meeting back in Ohio, and it really stays with you.
They’re actually bankrolling and organizing these Islamist groups. I saw a similar pattern during my time working in D.C., where certain interests were quietly funding radical movements to shift the political landscape.
It feels like everything is being orchestrated just to leave the American Muslim community holding the bag at the end of this.

Of course, the most pressing issue we're facing right now is that moderate Muslims...
Most people tend to stay quiet, and you rarely see anyone actually standing up to the Islamists.
Jonathan Brooks8 Jonathan Brooks8 Active Member
233 messages
joined Feb 2007
#5 ·
swiftcobra15 said:
I remember seeing a bluebird perched on my backyard fence this morning. It was such a quiet, beautiful moment to start the day. kaže:
If we keep dodging the core issue instead of facing it head-on, I fear we’re all heading straight for a disaster. It feels like we're just circling the drain.


I honestly see a major issue here, specifically when certain incredibly powerful interest groups start pulling all the strings. I remember seeing this happen during a local town hall meeting back in Ohio, and it really stays with you.
They’re actually bankrolling and organizing these Islamist groups. I saw a similar pattern during my time working in D.C., where certain interests were quietly funding radical movements to shift the political landscape.
It feels like everything is being orchestrated just to leave the American Muslim community holding the bag at the end of this.

Of course, the most pressing issue we're facing right now is that moderate Muslims...
Most people tend to stay quiet, and you rarely see anyone actually standing up to the Islamists.

I fear we’ve framed this entirely wrong—it's a fundamental misreading of the situation. You really have to ask yourself: when we talk about these "extremist Muslims" versus "moderate Muslims," are we talking about "us" or "them"?

By framing it this way—by being so incredibly specific in our division—are we essentially just washing our hands of it and leaving them to deal with "their" own problems...?
Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#6 ·
So, what does it actually mean to confront a problem head-on?


Facing a problem directly—especially when looking at the landscape here in North America (and I’m thinking specifically about that famous political cartoon)—really boils down to answering one core question: Is freedom of speech a fundamental pillar of our democracy, or is there something even more essential that sits above it?
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#7 ·
Jonathan Brooks8 said:I fear we’ve framed this entirely wrong—it's a fundamental misreading of the situation. You really have to ask yourself: when we talk about these "extremist Muslims" versus "moderate Muslims," are we talking about "us" or "them"?

By framing it this way—by being so incredibly specific in our division—are we essentially just washing our hands of it and leaving them to deal with "their" own problems...?

It could honestly be both. Even within a single family—take bin Laden, for example
—you can find such vastly different ideologies. The relationship isn't nearly as black and white as people want it to be.

Jonathan Brooks8 said:I fear we’ve framed this entirely wrong—it's a fundamental misreading of the situation. You really have to ask yourself: when we talk about these "extremist Muslims" versus "moderate Muslims," are we talking about "us" or "them"?

By framing it this way—by being so incredibly specific in our division—are we essentially just washing our hands of it and leaving them to deal with "their" own problems...?

At its core, we're facing a universal challenge: how do we achieve peaceful coexistence?

It seems pretty obvious to me that the vast majority of Muslims have absolutely no interest in
any kind of extremism, let alone terrorism. 😕
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#8 ·
swiftcobra15 said:I watched a little over half the movie, and honestly, I think I've seen enough.
Quotes can be incredibly brutal, but you'd find even darker stuff in the Old Testament.
So, if we’re taking things literally, both the Bible and the Quran could easily serve
as blueprints for the worst kinds of crimes. It all comes down to how you interpret them, though.

Ultimately, my take is that the film isn't attacking Islam itself, but rather those twisted interpretations of the Quran.

Long story short, I don't think the film is attacking Islam itself, but rather a twisted interpretation of the Quran.
I was looking over this thread yesterday, but I haven't had a spare moment to reply until now. You hit the nail on the head regarding the interpretation of the Quran. I actually wanted to translate and clarify some of the specific word meanings—since I'm fairly competent in that area. I’m certain those translations don't actually align with how they're being interpreted, but I need to double-check everything first. Once I do, I'll jump back in with the correct explanations. 👍
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#9 ·
Sean Cruz said:Long story short, I don't think the film is attacking Islam itself, but rather a twisted interpretation of the Quran.

I was looking over this thread yesterday, but I haven't had a spare moment to reply until now. You hit the nail on the head regarding the interpretation of the Quran. I actually wanted to translate and clarify some of the specific word meanings—since I'm fairly competent in that area. I’m certain those translations don't actually align with how they're being interpreted, but I need to double-check everything first. Once I do, I'll jump back in with the correct explanations. 👍
I was looking over this thread yesterday, but I haven't had a spare moment to reply until now. You hit the nail on the head regarding the interpretation of the Quran. I actually wanted to translate and clarify some of the specific word meanings—since I'm fairly competent in that area. I’m certain those translations don't actually align with how they're being interpreted, but I need to double-check everything first. Once I do, I'll jump back in with the correct explanations. 👍
I was looking over this thread yesterday, but I haven't had a spare moment to reply until now. You hit the nail on the head regarding the interpretation of the Quran. I actually wanted to translate and clarify some of the specific word meanings—since I'm fairly competent in that area. I’m certain those translations don't actually align with how they're being interpreted, but I need to double-check everything first. Once I do, I'll jump back in with the correct explanations. 👍
I noticed this same discussion is happening over on the "religion" board as well. There's actually a movie out there with English subtitles covering this.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=516_1207432409
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#10 ·
swiftcobra15 said:I was looking over this thread yesterday, but I haven't had a spare moment to reply until now. You hit the nail on the head regarding the interpretation of the Quran. I actually wanted to translate and clarify some of the specific word meanings—since I'm fairly competent in that area. I’m certain those translations don't actually align with how they're being interpreted, but I need to double-check everything first. Once I do, I'll jump back in with the correct explanations. 👍

I was looking over this thread yesterday, but I haven't had a spare moment to reply until now. You hit the nail on the head regarding the interpretation of the Quran. I actually wanted to translate and clarify some of the specific word meanings—since I'm fairly competent in that area. I’m certain those translations don't actually align with how they're being interpreted, but I need to double-check everything first. Once I do, I'll jump back in with the correct explanations. 👍
I noticed this same discussion is happening over on the "religion" board as well. There's actually a movie out there with English subtitles covering this.
I noticed this same discussion is happening over on the "religion" board as well. There's actually a movie out there with English subtitles covering this.
I was actually referring to translations from Arabic. Having a grasp of both Arabic and English, I can tell you that many of those English interpretations aren't quite hitting the mark compared to the original language.
Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#11 ·
So, Sister, just to make sure I follow—is your main gripe that the director took some liberties with the Quran and didn't quite get the translation right?

If that’s the case, it would be incredibly helpful if you could post both the version used in the movie and your own translation side-by-side.
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#12 ·
First off, I’ve watched the film. In my opinion, the director is doing exactly what Muslim extremists do: cherry-picking verses from the Quran to suit a specific narrative. To set the record straight, I’ll provide the correct translations for the sections the filmmaker took out of context:

Quran, Women – verse 56: Those who disbelieve in Our signs—We will surely cast them into the Fire. Whenever their skins are roasted through, We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the torment. God is truly Powerful and Wise.
My take: This is specifically addressing disbelievers, not followers of other faiths.
Quran, Women – verse 89: They wish you would turn into disbelievers just as they did, so that you would be alike. So do not take them as allies until they emigrate for the cause of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take any of them as allies or helpers.
Again, this refers to disbelievers (atheists) or polytheists. However, the very next verse clarifies things—verse 90: except for those who seek refuge with a people with whom you have a treaty, or who come to you while they themselves are in difficulty fighting against their own people or fighting against you. If they grant you peace, then God gives you no right against them.
I won't list more; I think this is plenty to make the point.
Furthermore, no major religion supports homosexuality, so I fail to see why that was even brought up.
To wrap this up: yes, Muslim extremists are dangerous, but they aren't any more dangerous than certain Mexican nationalist movements (where religious ideology has been used to justify attempts at territorial expansion and ethnic cleansing).
One last thing:

A man of standing once asked Jesus:
Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus answered him:
Why do you call me good?
No one is good except God alone.

Gospel according to Luke, 18, 18-19
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#13 ·
Brenda Cook4 said:So, Sister, just to make sure I follow—is your main gripe that the director took some liberties with the Quran and didn't quite get the translation right?

If that’s the case, it would be incredibly helpful if you could post both the version used in the movie and your own translation side-by-side.

Here is a link explaining the various meanings behind the word *fitna*: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitna_%28word%29
The Arabic language is highly nuanced and resists literal interpretation. Honestly, even my own translations might not be perfect because some words simply don't have direct English equivalents. Furthermore, certain phrases used in everyday speech carry one meaning, while their significance within the context of the Quran is entirely different. For instance, "as-salamu alaykum" functions as a standard greeting like "good day," but its deeper religious meaning translates to "Peace be upon you."
Even a single misplaced vowel marker can completely alter a word's meaning. Of course, this doesn't excuse extremists for twisting the Quran to suit their agendas, but you have to realize how many people lack formal education in the language; standard Arabic is primarily the domain of intellectuals. Most others rely on regional dialects—for context, there are about 36 different dialects just in Iraq. This linguistic gap creates a massive opening for those spreading hate to manipulate the message.
rustymaker5 rustymaker5 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2008
#14 ·
Now we’re just going to end up acting like grammar is the deciding factor for extremism, and pretending that most Muslims are all peaceful and tolerant toward non-believers... I’d really love to see how those supposedly tolerant folks would actually behave during a mass uprising in Western nations, which they find so alien, ugly, and religiously intolerant to begin with. "To hell with freedom" is just such a terrifying message.
rowdyhawk10 rowdyhawk10 Active Member
123 messages
joined Oct 2009
#15 ·
swiftcobra15 said:I watched a little over half the movie, and honestly, I think I've seen enough.
Quotes can be incredibly brutal, but you'd find even darker stuff in the Old Testament.
So, if we’re taking things literally, both the Bible and the Quran could easily serve
as blueprints for the worst kinds of crimes. It all comes down to how you interpret them, though.

Ultimately, my take is that the film isn't attacking Islam itself, but rather those twisted interpretations of the Quran.

I suspect you might be mistaken. 🙂 You really should have watched the entire film to understand that it’s nothing more than blatant mainstream propaganda, where biased half-truths are intentionally amplified. I guess everything in it was just taken out of context—distorted and fundamentally false. 😢 My late father and mother didn't experience Islam quite the way the filmmakers seem to be forcing it upon all Muslims—not that I've seen anyone else pushing back against it. It seems obvious from the footage that the creators intend to manufacture a potent wave of anti-Islamic propaganda in the Netherlands, and throughout Europe as well. It feels almost identical to how Hitler's propagandists stirred up the German people against the Jews. I suppose it's a shame you don't see it that way.

I don't really see the filmmakers as independent thinkers so much as they appear to be quite devout Christians. Perhaps a possible reason for this is that Christianity is currently facing a profound crisis. History seems to be repeating itself; something remarkably similar occurred leading up to the Crusades during the Middle Ages.

swiftcobra15 said:I watched a little over half the movie, and honestly, I think I've seen enough.
Quotes can be incredibly brutal, but you'd find even darker stuff in the Old Testament.
So, if we’re taking things literally, both the Bible and the Quran could easily serve
as blueprints for the worst kinds of crimes. It all comes down to how you interpret them, though.

Ultimately, my take is that the film isn't attacking Islam itself, but rather those twisted interpretations of the Quran.

I suppose I agree that the Quran, if twisted through a distorted lens, can serve as a dangerous weapon in the hands of fanatics. However, I find myself disagreeing with the assessment that the citations themselves are inherently malicious. Warfare has its own logic, governed by established principles of honor and chivalry. It seems to me that you might be viewing these "vicious passages" outside of their original context—which was precisely the intention of the authors of this propaganda pamphlet and hate generator: to package them in such a way. If there is a genuine desire for dialogue, I am willing to address your questions regarding these (or any other) verses of the Quran, in good faith, to demonstrate that they do not contain the malice that certain bad actors attempt to project onto them.

swiftcobra15 said:I watched a little over half the movie, and honestly, I think I've seen enough.
Quotes can be incredibly brutal, but you'd find even darker stuff in the Old Testament.
So, if we’re taking things literally, both the Bible and the Quran could easily serve
as blueprints for the worst kinds of crimes. It all comes down to how you interpret them, though.

Ultimately, my take is that the film isn't attacking Islam itself, but rather those twisted interpretations of the Quran.

No, I don't think that holds up. If the director hadn't intended to take this specific angle, they would have likely included some nuance or offered an objective perspective—perhaps even a positive example to balance things out, wouldn't they? Instead, everything is framed in such a dark, one-sided light. Because the content feels so biased and skewed, I’d say the film is fundamentally aimed at Islam and Muslims as a whole. If the filmmaker truly wanted to be objective and focus solely on terrorism, they wouldn't go out of their way to cast such broad strokes against the entire religion. To my mind, the creator's message is quite clear, and you can see it plainly in the final moments of the film if you bother to watch it.

The most distasteful and manipulative part of this movie occurs halfway through, when they show an image of a mother holding a child with a bloody head, attempting to frame it as "THE FUTURE OF ISLAM IN THE NETHERLANDS" 😲 In reality, that image depicts a specific ritual practiced by certain Shia groups where children undergo bloodletting on the day of Ashura, marking the martyrdom of Hussein (and mind you, Shias make up less than 10 percent of the Muslim population). I should also mention, since that’s how the film kicks off—that it claims the 9/11 attacks at the World Trade Center were actually a false flag operation involving suicide bombings orchestrated by the US administration (much like the anthrax attacks) specifically to shift the blame onto Islam. Best,
rowdyhawk10 rowdyhawk10 Active Member
123 messages
joined Oct 2009
#16 ·
rustymaker5 said:Now we’re just going to end up acting like grammar is the deciding factor for extremism, and pretending that most Muslims are all peaceful and tolerant toward non-believers... I’d really love to see how those supposedly tolerant folks would actually behave during a mass uprising in Western nations, which they find so alien, ugly, and religiously intolerant to begin with. "To hell with freedom" is just such a terrifying message.

Well, I suppose one shouldn't overlook the sheer force behind these fabrications. 🙂

rustymaker5 said:Now we’re just going to end up acting like grammar is the deciding factor for extremism, and pretending that most Muslims are all peaceful and tolerant toward non-believers... I’d really love to see how those supposedly tolerant folks would actually behave during a mass uprising in Western nations, which they find so alien, ugly, and religiously intolerant to begin with. "To hell with freedom" is just such a terrifying message.

Yes, my contention is that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, and that this trash attempting to discredit them represents a tiny minority, often funded by non-Islamic sources—specifically those who benefit from such broad generalizations about Muslims.

I suppose the most constructive thing we can do here is to take the points raised in the film and break them down individually to show what is actually happening. If there are questions regarding any specific detail from the documentary, please feel free to ask... I will try to provide some answers. Best regards to everyone.
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#17 ·
rowdyhawk10 said:I suspect you might be mistaken. 🙂 You really should have watched the entire film to understand that it’s nothing more than blatant mainstream propaganda, where biased half-truths are intentionally amplified. I guess everything in it was just taken out of context—distorted and fundamentally false. 😢 My late father and mother didn't experience Islam quite the way the filmmakers seem to be forcing it upon all Muslims—not that I've seen anyone else pushing back against it. It seems obvious from the footage that the creators intend to manufacture a potent wave of anti-Islamic propaganda in the Netherlands, and throughout Europe as well. It feels almost identical to how Hitler's propagandists stirred up the German people against the Jews. I suppose it's a shame you don't see it that way.

I don't really see the filmmakers as independent thinkers so much as they appear to be quite devout Christians. Perhaps a possible reason for this is that Christianity is currently facing a profound crisis. History seems to be repeating itself; something remarkably similar occurred leading up to the Crusades during the Middle Ages.

I suppose I agree that the Quran, if twisted through a distorted lens, can serve as a dangerous weapon in the hands of fanatics. However, I find myself disagreeing with the assessment that the citations themselves are inherently malicious. Warfare has its own logic, governed by established principles of honor and chivalry. It seems to me that you might be viewing these "vicious passages" outside of their original context—which was precisely the intention of the authors of this propaganda pamphlet and hate generator: to package them in such a way. If there is a genuine desire for dialogue, I am willing to address your questions regarding these (or any other) verses of the Quran, in good faith, to demonstrate that they do not contain the malice that certain bad actors attempt to project onto them.

No, I don't think that holds up. If the director hadn't intended to take this specific angle, they would have likely included some nuance or offered an objective perspective—perhaps even a positive example to balance things out, wouldn't they? Instead, everything is framed in such a dark, one-sided light. Because the content feels so biased and skewed, I’d say the film is fundamentally aimed at Islam and Muslims as a whole. If the filmmaker truly wanted to be objective and focus solely on terrorism, they wouldn't go out of their way to cast such broad strokes against the entire religion. To my mind, the creator's message is quite clear, and you can see it plainly in the final moments of the film if you bother to watch it.

The most distasteful and manipulative part of this movie occurs halfway through, when they show an image of a mother holding a child with a bloody head, attempting to frame it as "THE FUTURE OF ISLAM IN THE NETHERLANDS" 😲 In reality, that image depicts a specific ritual practiced by certain Shia groups where children undergo bloodletting on the day of Ashura, marking the martyrdom of Hussein (and mind you, Shias make up less than 10 percent of the Muslim population). I should also mention, since that’s how the film kicks off—that it claims the 9/11 attacks at the World Trade Center were actually a false flag operation involving suicide bombings orchestrated by the US administration (much like the anthrax attacks) specifically to shift the blame onto Islam. Best,

I saw how the movie ended, and now it's obvious to me that the directors have an agenda.
They're basically conflating Islam with Islamism—extremism and terrorism.
That said, I still believe any reasonable person can read between the lines:
Terrorists are always a tiny minority, yet they constantly claim to act on behalf of Islam.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Christians." Are you referring to believers?
Regardless, we're talking about representatives of Western ("Christian") civilization
and those defending the privileges of the wealthy West at the expense of everyone else.

The core issue remains how the Muslim majority deals with
that extremist, terrorist minority claiming to speak for all Muslims.
Because regardless of any bias in the film, Islamist terrorists are a real and dangerous reality.
Best regards! 🙂
Harold James9 Harold James9 Active Member
76 messages
joined Mar 2008
#18 ·
I haven't seen the movie, nor do I plan to. Honestly, I'm tired of watching and listening to debates among the deaf.

Over here, Eminem surely doesn't assume Christians can't be free thinkers, just as Jonathan Brooks8 certainly doesn't think Muslims can't be free thinkers. They simply process what they know—and since they know so little, their conclusions are essentially zero.

Take this specific point from Jonathan Brooks8:
The core issue remains how the Muslim majority handles the
extremist-terrorist minority acting on behalf of all Muslims.

It’s the same logic as that bus example from the thread about insults. We understand ourselves perfectly, so we assume everyone else is just like us. We conclude that if something doesn't offend us, it can't be offensive—meaning we think only extremists would feel provoked by things we find harmless.

The reality is that everyone is provoked. Extremists from every side respond the way they know best. Some make movies, some draw caricatures, and others use explosives to kill.

Ultimately, regarding the mutual understanding between Muslims and Christians...👎

🙂🙂🙂
Jonathan Brooks8 Jonathan Brooks8 Active Member
233 messages
joined Feb 2007
#19 ·
swiftcobra15 said:It could honestly be both. Even within a single family—take bin Laden, for example
—you can find such vastly different ideologies. The relationship isn't nearly as black and white as people want it to be.

At its core, we're facing a universal challenge: how do we achieve peaceful coexistence?

It seems pretty obvious to me that the vast majority of Muslims have absolutely no interest in
any kind of extremism, let alone terrorism. 😕

What I was getting at is this—when you try to draw lines between who "belongs" to which group, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are so far removed from the extremists (who, mind you, aren't even a monolith) that they are viewed as "them" just as much as anyone else refers to them... they are nowhere near being part of the "us"...
rowdyhawk10 rowdyhawk10 Active Member
123 messages
joined Oct 2009
#20 ·
swiftcobra15 said:I saw how the movie ended, and now it's obvious to me that the directors have an agenda.
They're basically conflating Islam with Islamism—extremism and terrorism.
That said, I still believe any reasonable person can read between the lines:
Terrorists are always a tiny minority, yet they constantly claim to act on behalf of Islam.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Christians." Are you referring to believers?
Regardless, we're talking about representatives of Western ("Christian") civilization
and those defending the privileges of the wealthy West at the expense of everyone else.

The core issue remains how the Muslim majority deals with
that extremist, terrorist minority claiming to speak for all Muslims.
Because regardless of any bias in the film, Islamist terrorists are a real and dangerous reality.
Best regards! 🙂

I suppose it’s a good thing this is becoming apparent now, and I can only hope that most people in the Netherlands (and throughout Europe) will also recognize the questionable intentions behind this film.

swiftcobra15 said:I saw how the movie ended, and now it's obvious to me that the directors have an agenda.
They're basically conflating Islam with Islamism—extremism and terrorism.
That said, I still believe any reasonable person can read between the lines:
Terrorists are always a tiny minority, yet they constantly claim to act on behalf of Islam.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Christians." Are you referring to believers?
Regardless, we're talking about representatives of Western ("Christian") civilization
and those defending the privileges of the wealthy West at the expense of everyone else.

The core issue remains how the Muslim majority deals with
that extremist, terrorist minority claiming to speak for all Muslims.
Because regardless of any bias in the film, Islamist terrorists are a real and dangerous reality.
Best regards! 🙂

Terrorists are indeed always a minority... and I guess regular people don't want to get involved; they probably fear standing up to them because these groups are often armed, dangerous... and, quite frankly, frequently backed by the West itself. I would argue that major Western media outlets give massive amounts of airtime to non-institutional bandits—terrorists like Ayman al-Zawahiri, who aren't even legitimate representatives—instead of giving that space to legal, institutionalized Muslim leaders, such as a Sheikh or an Imam. It’s actually the opposite. Most coverage is given to bottom-feeders like Amr Moussa, Osama bin Laden, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, or Ayman al-Zawahiri. These Western media outlets seem to prefer quoting those types over, say, a Sheikh or a professor at an Islamic university. That’s why this false impression is created. It suits them, I suppose, to present Islam this way; it serves whoever is paying for these reports.

And true believers among Muslims, unfortunately, lack the means to hold them accountable, since they aren't even permitted to be near the halls of power. A prime example is Algeria, where the principles of parliamentarianism and democracy have been flagrantly violated. But it’s much the same in other Muslim nations: Egypt, Libya, Iraq... where the people in power are those installed by the USA and the West, rather than those the people and the faithful actually desire.

swiftcobra15 said:I saw how the movie ended, and now it's obvious to me that the directors have an agenda.
They're basically conflating Islam with Islamism—extremism and terrorism.
That said, I still believe any reasonable person can read between the lines:
Terrorists are always a tiny minority, yet they constantly claim to act on behalf of Islam.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Christians." Are you referring to believers?
Regardless, we're talking about representatives of Western ("Christian") civilization
and those defending the privileges of the wealthy West at the expense of everyone else.

The core issue remains how the Muslim majority deals with
that extremist, terrorist minority claiming to speak for all Muslims.
Because regardless of any bias in the film, Islamist terrorists are a real and dangerous reality.
Best regards! 🙂

True believers among Christians are much like true believers among Muslims... they are cultured, polite, and don't harbor hatred or lie. A commonality today is that "others" often speak ill of them in their name. However, there is a stark difference: in the West, bad actors abuse power, commissioning films like this in the name of Christianity just to gain new legitimacy for their colonialist policies in the Muslim world. And sadly, even believers among Christians often fall for it. The difference lies in the fact that European societies are wealthy and socially organized... while Christians are constantly fed certain fairy tales through the church and the media so that they don't realize what is actually being done in their name.

swiftcobra15 said:I saw how the movie ended, and now it's obvious to me that the directors have an agenda.
They're basically conflating Islam with Islamism—extremism and terrorism.
That said, I still believe any reasonable person can read between the lines:
Terrorists are always a tiny minority, yet they constantly claim to act on behalf of Islam.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Christians." Are you referring to believers?
Regardless, we're talking about representatives of Western ("Christian") civilization
and those defending the privileges of the wealthy West at the expense of everyone else.

The core issue remains how the Muslim majority deals with
that extremist, terrorist minority claiming to speak for all Muslims.
Because regardless of any bias in the film, Islamist terrorists are a real and dangerous reality.
Best regards! 🙂

I suppose I’ve already mentioned that the majority lacks the tools to prevent this. In most Muslim societies, the government is essentially disconnected from the people and the faithful by default... But, what can we Americans do in cities like Chicago, Detroit, or New York? Perhaps that is an interesting question to ask. We aren't out here in the States slaughtering people on live TV, blowing up railways, or hijacking planes. I don't think I can be held responsible for the actions of some madman in Spain or Afghanistan, someone about whom I know nothing—neither who raised him during his childhood nor who is paying him to commit such atrocities... I feel sorry that such figures exist among Muslims; if I had the power, I would eliminate them instantly, but I simply don't have that capacity. 🤷 Regards

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