The Big Short trailer? No, it's Vice (2018)

northerncrane4 said:Look, I get it—there are brilliant moments here, the acting is top-tier, and the makeup is honestly mesmerizing, but why does it have to be so damn preachy? At times, the didacticism is almost unbearable. If you feel the need to spoon-feed every single detail to your audience, then you've already failed them—you're basically treating them like they're lost causes. If you're making a movie you don't believe can afford to be subtle because you're terrified the core audience won't "get it," then don't even bother making it in the first place.

quietdriver3 said:But hey, everyone deserves a wake-up call, I suppose. Maybe this could be a stepping stone toward something a bit less preachy? And besides, wars are rarely seen in such an intellectual way; they're usually just messy and ugly. 😉

As for the movie itself—I actually thought it was great. Even if that lecturing vibe is a little exhausting during the first act, since a good chunk of the jokes later on rely on that same energy, I guess it's all forgiven.

It feels pretty well-rounded and fleshed out to me—and I'll probably skip over the praise for the cast, because there's not much else to say there.

northerncrane4 said:Because experience shows us—plain and simple—that being didactic only leads to more didacticism.

BTW, just a thought... why is it a bad thing to support your other daughter in the end—especially considering your wife's own unfulfilled ambitions?

northerncrane4 said:Because experience shows us—plain and simple—that being didactic only leads to more didacticism.

BTW, just a thought... why is it a bad thing to support your other daughter in the end—especially considering your wife's own unfulfilled ambitions?

quietdriver3 said:But then again, looking at how things work, if the wrong side is out there preaching while the right side stays subtle, I guess the loud ones end up winning in the end.

It’s just... well, maybe it's just how we're wired, thanks to evolutionary biology or whatever. It's not the subtle types that get ahead, it's the loud ones.

But I wonder, why should the wife be the only one who gets to chase after everything she ever wanted?

quietdriver3 said:But why should the wife be the only one allowed to chase her ambitions?

northerncrane4 said:People don't say "Might makes right" for nothing, right?

The wife didn't get to fulfill her own ambitions, though. She had to mold this idiot into a man just so she could live vicariously through him. Now, the daughter is in a position to do what her mother couldn't—so it’s perfectly fine if Cheney supports her, just like he supported the other daughter's lifestyle. The movie frames it as being heartless toward the second daughter, which is total bullshit.

northerncrane4 said:People don't say "Might makes right" for nothing, right?

The wife didn't get to fulfill her own ambitions, though. She had to mold this idiot into a man just so she could live vicariously through him. Now, the daughter is in a position to do what her mother couldn't—so it’s perfectly fine if Cheney supports her, just like he supported the other daughter's lifestyle. The movie frames it as being heartless toward the second daughter, which is total bullshit.

quietdriver3 said:People just don't get it, I guess. It’s kind of the usual way things go. Everywhere I look, it seems like the quality of life is way higher for the folks who just jump straight into power, rather than the ones who spent their entire lives actually building up their brains and working hard. Maybe that's just how it works, though.

I mean, she’s definitely checked off a huge chunk of her goals. She’s actually achieved more than 99.9% of people on this planet ever will, I guess. But obviously, you can't just grab everything. Nobody really can—so why would she be any different?

I guess I feel the same way about Dick.

And I guess there's also the older daughter, who seems to be carving out her own path as a career politician.

I guess, at the end of the day, it just feels like the younger generation was tossed onto the altar just so those three people at the top could bump their own achievements up by a tiny fraction of a percent... and honestly, I don't think the price for that kind of success is really okay.

quietdriver3 said:Wherever I look, the standard of living is much higher for those who just ride the wave of power than for those who spent their lives building brains.

quietdriver3 said:The lady fulfilled a good portion of her ambitions—more than 99.9 percent of people on this planet ever will. Of course, she can't have everything. No one can—so why should she?

quietdriver3 said:And then there's the older daughter with a career as a career politician.

quietdriver3 said:At the end of the day, the younger one was sacrificed on the altar just so those three above could boost their achievements by a fraction of a percent—and frankly, the price of that success isn't okay.

northerncrane4 I guess... maybe I should mention what was said...
I guess it’ll get to the point where nobody—not even the old man who originally wrote that line about how sheep are just mindless followers that need driving, while goats actually have some brains and just need a bit of direction—will even remember where it came from. Maybe.

northerncrane4 I guess what they're saying is...
I guess I'm not entirely sure if things actually work that way on a macro level. I mean, the USA is still way more prosperous than Afghanistan. And at the end of the day, it's not like Cheney took office in a way that made him the most powerful guy in Congress when it comes to pulling strings.

northerncrane4 said:It seems even the author of "For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led" wouldn't have a clue either.

I'm not sure things work quite like that on a macro level. The USA is still more prosperous than Afghanistan. Besides, even Cheney didn't take his position just to be the most powerful man in Congress when it came to pulling strings.

Whoa, look at that deep-seated male chauvinism surfacing! So, the lady fulfilled her ambitions by being the wife of a successful politician?!

And then there's the younger daughter—since nobody in the family questioned her sexual orientation at all. Including her sister. Who, having reached a position her mother's generation could only dream of—specifically, a woman in the Senate—voted exactly how the electorate demanded. I haven't seen any follow-up moves regarding gay marriage since she entered the Senate, so I assume she isn't pushing any anti-same-sex-marriage agendas.

Yeah, yeah, "sacrificed" is a bit strong. It's fine for the younger one to deal with a Middle Eastern butcher uncle, but apparently, she can't get past disrespecting the gay marriage community—baa baa.

northerncrane4 said:It seems even the author of "For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led" wouldn't have a clue either.

I'm not sure things work quite like that on a macro level. The USA is still more prosperous than Afghanistan. Besides, even Cheney didn't take his position just to be the most powerful man in Congress when it came to pulling strings.

Whoa, look at that deep-seated male chauvinism surfacing! So, the lady fulfilled her ambitions by being the wife of a successful politician?!

And then there's the younger daughter—since nobody in the family questioned her sexual orientation at all. Including her sister. Who, having reached a position her mother's generation could only dream of—specifically, a woman in the Senate—voted exactly how the electorate demanded. I haven't seen any follow-up moves regarding gay marriage since she entered the Senate, so I assume she isn't pushing any anti-same-sex-marriage agendas.

Yeah, yeah, "sacrificed" is a bit strong. It's fine for the younger one to deal with a Middle Eastern butcher uncle, but apparently, she can't get past disrespecting the gay marriage community—baa baa.

northerncrane4 said:It seems even the author of "For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led" wouldn't have a clue either.

I'm not sure things work quite like that on a macro level. The USA is still more prosperous than Afghanistan. Besides, even Cheney didn't take his position just to be the most powerful man in Congress when it came to pulling strings.

Whoa, look at that deep-seated male chauvinism surfacing! So, the lady fulfilled her ambitions by being the wife of a successful politician?!

And then there's the younger daughter—since nobody in the family questioned her sexual orientation at all. Including her sister. Who, having reached a position her mother's generation could only dream of—specifically, a woman in the Senate—voted exactly how the electorate demanded. I haven't seen any follow-up moves regarding gay marriage since she entered the Senate, so I assume she isn't pushing any anti-same-sex-marriage agendas.

Yeah, yeah, "sacrificed" is a bit strong. It's fine for the younger one to deal with a Middle Eastern butcher uncle, but apparently, she can't get past disrespecting the gay marriage community—baa baa.

quietdriver3 said:

northerncrane4 I guess... maybe I should mention what was said...
I guess it’ll get to the point where nobody—not even the old man who originally wrote that line about how sheep are just mindless followers that need driving, while goats actually have some brains and just need a bit of direction—will even remember where it came from. Maybe.

It’s like one of those old folk riddles, you know? Just super simple. I guess there isn't much of a difference between that little riddle and those preachy, didactic jokes they throw into this movie—they're both just way too simplified. And honestly, life... man, reality just doesn't work like that.

northerncrane4 I guess what they're saying is...
I guess I'm not entirely sure if things actually work that way on a macro level. I mean, the USA is still way more prosperous than Afghanistan. And at the end of the day, it's not like Cheney took office in a way that made him the most powerful guy in Congress when it comes to pulling strings.

I guess... I wonder if Cheney really got inside everyone's heads, you know? And then there’s the guy sitting right above him—what exactly is his deal? Maybe he's just as much of a presence as the other one. I don't know, it's hard to say.

I guess she really managed to reap all those perks that come with being in such a powerful position... without having to, you know, sacrifice her own heart health just to get there. Maybe she just played it smart, I don't know. It seems like she got everything she wanted without the physical toll most people would take. 😉

I mean, if that isn't just deep-seated homophobia, then I honestly don't know what is. Are we really saying that public statements don't carry any weight at all if you're just doing the exact opposite behind closed doors when nobody's looking? I guess it's hard to say, maybe... but it feels off.

People just do what they want, I guess. Like that really wise old guy once said:

"God has given you but one heart
You are not a home for the hearts of your brothers"

northerncrane4 said:And even in a grand American translation, the movie isn't called "woman in the shadows"—it's "Man in the Shadows."

Quote:>

quietdriver3 says: [I]Whoa, if that isn't deep-seated homophobia, I don't know what is. Are you suggesting public words carry no weight if someone acts differently in private? It’s not about being alone in private—it’s about holding a public office that those very words helped you secure. The older sister made her move, which pissed off the younger one, even though the younger one is the one reaping the benefits of her daddy's many specific and shady maneuvers. Quote:> quietdriver3 says: [I]Everyone scratches where they itch. How convenient that it itches there, but it doesn't itch for his father's 600,000 dead in Iraq (if the movie's figure is accurate). But man, this whole idea about dumbing down the crowd is starting to feel like an urban legend. First off, the masses are always going to be uninformed—that’s kind of just the deal. Second, if they let themselves get played, well, maybe they deserved it? I don't know, why should anyone feel responsible for the intelligence of the general public? Maybe they should just look out for themselves, otherwise, they shouldn't expect much respect from the people running the show. Third, the Orange guy isn't actually any stupider than the Vice President, or some B-list actor from the 30s. He’s just more raw material, I guess. It’s all basically the same level of mental capacity. northerncrane4 said:And even in a grand American translation, the movie isn't called "woman in the shadows"—it's "Man in the Shadows." Quote:> quietdriver3 says: [I]Whoa, if that isn't deep-seated homophobia, I don't know what is. Are you suggesting public words carry no weight if someone acts differently in private? It’s not about being alone in private—it’s about holding a public office that those very words helped you secure. The older sister made her move, which pissed off the younger one, even though the younger one is the one reaping the benefits of her daddy's many specific and shady maneuvers. Quote:> quietdriver3 says: [I]Everyone scratches where they itch. How convenient that it itches there, but it doesn't itch for his father's 600,000 dead in Iraq (if the movie's figure is accurate). Well, maybe because a hypothetical movie about her wouldn't have any drama. She already hit all her goals, she’s doing great. Leaked the books, got the respect, held the power... what else is there to give? northerncrane4 said:And even in a grand American translation, the movie isn't called "woman in the shadows"—it's "Man in the Shadows." Quote:> quietdriver3 says: [I]Whoa, if that isn't deep-seated homophobia, I don't know what is. Are you suggesting public words carry no weight if someone acts differently in private? It’s not about being alone in private—it’s about holding a public office that those very words helped you secure. The older sister made her move, which pissed off the younger one, even though the younger one is the one reaping the benefits of her daddy's many specific and shady maneuvers. Quote:> quietdriver3 says: [I]Everyone scratches where they itch. How convenient that it itches there, but it doesn't itch for his father's 600,000 dead in Iraq (if the movie's figure is accurate). Actually, the older one enjoys it too, and she’s even deeper in the mud. I don't really see why only the younger one has to carry the weight of her father's bloody hands. Why was the older one supposed to be rewarded? Or is it just expected that the resident scapegoat always has to hang for society's sins? 🤔

quietdriver3 said:But man, this whole idea about dumbing down the crowd is starting to feel like an urban legend.

First off, the masses are always going to be uninformed—that’s kind of just the deal.
Second, if they let themselves get played, well, maybe they deserved it? I don't know, why should anyone feel responsible for the intelligence of the general public? Maybe they should just look out for themselves, otherwise, they shouldn't expect much respect from the people running the show.
Third, the Orange guy isn't actually any stupider than the Vice President, or some B-list actor from the 30s. He’s just more raw material, I guess. It’s all basically the same level of mental capacity.

Well, maybe because a hypothetical movie about her wouldn't have any drama. She already hit all her goals, she’s doing great. Leaked the books, got the respect, held the power... what else is there to give?

Actually, the older one enjoys it too, and she’s even deeper in the mud. I don't really see why only the younger one has to carry the weight of her father's bloody hands. Why was the older one supposed to be rewarded? Or is it just expected that the resident scapegoat always has to hang for society's sins? 🤔

quietdriver3 said:Second—if people choose to be fools, they deserve the consequences—why should the intelligence of the masses be anyone else's responsibility?
If that mob doesn't start looking out for its own interests—otherwise, they haven't earned a shred of respect from those running the show.

quietdriver3 said:Thirdly—Orange isn't any less dim-witted than Double V, or that B-movie actor from the 30s. He’s just more raw material—which is really just a different way of saying he's equally incompetent. They're all cut from the same cloth.

quietdriver3 said:Because a hypothetical movie about her would be completely devoid of drama. She hit all her marks—she achieved her goals, her life is a success story. She published the books, earned everyone's respect, held actual power—what else is there to give her?

quietdriver3 said:The older one is enjoying herself—and honestly, she’s even deeper in the mud than the rest. I don't get why it’s only the younger one who has to pay for her father's sins. Why should the older one be rewarded? Or is it just expected that the resident deviant always hangs around to shoulder society's mistakes? 🤔

northerncrane4 said:Not necessarily. It’s only an issue if you treat them like a mob—once you start treating them like a real team, the stupidity disappears.

Look, if a woman can't defend herself, then she basically asked for it—why should the perpetrator carry any of the responsibility?

He’s even more foolish because he actually believes he’s the smartest guy in the room. Besides—the market will ultimately decide just how dim he really is—especially since both Ford and the cowboy have already served two terms.

Honestly, the movie about him is pretty straightforward—the drama was mostly manufactured by McKay. Cheney is just a pragmatist; he made that big decision in both the film and real life, but I don't see how it would have actually changed anything for her. The only real drama in the whole thing is Donald Rumsfeld's story, which they handled with way too much authority.

Spinach. It’s not about being soft—it’s about the hypocrisy. Especially coming from McKay—who treats Mary and some random Iraqi dad sitting under a kitchen table as if they’re all on the exact same level of victimhood. Which, as I’ve said before, is even more bullshit.

northerncrane4 said:Not necessarily. It’s only an issue if you treat them like a mob—once you start treating them like a real team, the stupidity disappears.

Look, if a woman can't defend herself, then she basically asked for it—why should the perpetrator carry any of the responsibility?

He’s even more foolish because he actually believes he’s the smartest guy in the room. Besides—the market will ultimately decide just how dim he really is—especially since both Ford and the cowboy have already served two terms.

Honestly, the movie about him is pretty straightforward—the drama was mostly manufactured by McKay. Cheney is just a pragmatist; he made that big decision in both the film and real life, but I don't see how it would have actually changed anything for her. The only real drama in the whole thing is Donald Rumsfeld's story, which they handled with way too much authority.

Spinach. It’s not about being soft—it’s about the hypocrisy. Especially coming from McKay—who treats Mary and some random Iraqi dad sitting under a kitchen table as if they’re all on the exact same level of victimhood. Which, as I’ve said before, is even more bullshit.

northerncrane4 said:Not necessarily. It’s only an issue if you treat them like a mob—once you start treating them like a real team, the stupidity disappears.

Look, if a woman can't defend herself, then she basically asked for it—why should the perpetrator carry any of the responsibility?

He’s even more foolish because he actually believes he’s the smartest guy in the room. Besides—the market will ultimately decide just how dim he really is—especially since both Ford and the cowboy have already served two terms.

Honestly, the movie about him is pretty straightforward—the drama was mostly manufactured by McKay. Cheney is just a pragmatist; he made that big decision in both the film and real life, but I don't see how it would have actually changed anything for her. The only real drama in the whole thing is Donald Rumsfeld's story, which they handled with way too much authority.

Spinach. It’s not about being soft—it’s about the hypocrisy. Especially coming from McKay—who treats Mary and some random Iraqi dad sitting under a kitchen table as if they’re all on the exact same level of victimhood. Which, as I’ve said before, is even more bullshit.

quietdriver3 said:That metaphor isn't really fair, I suppose. A mob is actually stronger than its hypothetical rapist.

Yeah, I mean, if the movie ended right where the credits first roll, maybe that would be true. But it doesn't. There's more left.

I think it's pretty obvious that wasn't the intention. Mary is like the symbol of the final downfall. She can't just be some Iraqi civilian that Dick never cared about. Once he sacrificed his own family, he lost that last little bit of humanity.

quietdriver3 said:If the movie had actually wrapped up right when those first credits rolled—then sure, you'd be right. But it didn't. You've still got more to deal with.

quietdriver3 said:It’s obvious that wasn't the intention. Mary represents the ultimate downfall—it can't just be some civilian from Iraq that Dick never cared about in the first place. Once he sacrificed his own family, he lost whatever sliver of humanity he had left.

northerncrane4 said:It seems even the author of "For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led" wouldn't have a clue either.

I'm not sure things work quite like that on a macro level. The USA is still more prosperous than Afghanistan. Besides, even Cheney didn't take his position just to be the most powerful man in Congress when it came to pulling strings.

Whoa, look at that deep-seated male chauvinism surfacing! So, the lady fulfilled her ambitions by being the wife of a successful politician?!

And then there's the younger daughter—since nobody in the family questioned her sexual orientation at all. Including her sister. Who, having reached a position her mother's generation could only dream of—specifically, a woman in the Senate—voted exactly how the electorate demanded. I haven't seen any follow-up moves regarding gay marriage since she entered the Senate, so I assume she isn't pushing any anti-same-sex-marriage agendas.

Yeah, yeah, "sacrificed" is a bit strong. It's fine for the younger one to deal with a Middle Eastern butcher uncle, but apparently, she can't get past disrespecting the gay marriage community—baa baa.

northerncrane4 said:People don't say "Might makes right" for nothing, right?

The wife didn't get to fulfill her own ambitions, though. She had to mold this idiot into a man just so she could live vicariously through him. Now, the daughter is in a position to do what her mother couldn't—so it’s perfectly fine if Cheney supports her, just like he supported the other daughter's lifestyle. The movie frames it as being heartless toward the second daughter, which is total bullshit.

Morgan Rodriguez57 said:It’s practically an art form to create such a stillborn movie with a lead character who is just... totally hollow.

No clue at all. Sheep just follow along, whereas you really have to manhandle goats to get them moving—it's just how it works. Actually, the whole symbolism of the New Testament is built right on top of that little bit of rural logic...

Jesse Thomas7 said:Honestly, I wasn't expecting to actually enjoy this. I just kind of clicked on it without any real enthusiasm or drive, mostly because I'm so utterly exhausted by American politics and all the endless stream of content—serious or otherwise—that tries to tackle it. It usually starts putting me to sleep within minutes once they start circling the same old drain. Like, for the thousandth time.

But damn if I was wrong, it was actually pretty good. I loved those few "holy crap" moments—you know, those intense shots like that interceptor sequence during the credits? And that dead heart on the table.

How exactly is it portrayed as "cold-hearted"? Because from that scene, I walked away feeling like, "Hey, at least he's being a decent dad by supporting the second daughter after having already supported the first." Is it considered heartless just because she's crying and throwing a fit?

It seems like the scene was intentionally crafted so that everyone walks away with their own take on that decision. I didn't feel like the film was trying to shove a specific opinion down my throat. And even if it was trying, it failed.

Also, I have to give props to the ending. That little, all-encompassing sequence at the end was almost genius. Right after all those montage shots, just when you think the credits are about to roll out...

That whole bit where Republicans and Democrats argue over their takes on the film, paired with what the younger generation thinks (God, I can't wait for the next Fast and Furious 🙏), was such a perfect way to drive the point home. 🙏

The future. Same old story. Check. 🤣

kaya714 said:I have to give credit to the ending, though. That short, all-encompassing sequence was actually a brilliant move—especially those shots right after you thought the credits were about to roll.

northerncrane4 said:That’s exactly what he meant—you’re just being a bit slow on the uptake.

"For sheep are stupid, and have to be driven. But goats are intelligent, and need to be led."

"Because sheep are mindless and need to be herded, whereas goats are smart and just need some guidance."