Mark Lopez7 said:@placidcyclist5:
Well, you start off with:
"Boss, religion doesn't have anything to do with those fanatics (though I must say Muslims lead the pack there) but..."
- Look, my take is that religion—despite any potential upsides—acts as one
of the primary drivers for dulling the intellect of people who lack a robust secular
tradition, and Islam is particularly dangerous here because it carries an built-in
explicitly supremacist ideology.
Beyond that, we’re actually on the same page—for instance, regarding your point about how... "
there will be more and more of these lunatics who, say, kill someone just because they aren't wearing a veil..."
- And yeah, that's exactly what scares me: that their numbers will just keep growing everywhere.
@Lisa Walker31:
With the caveat that you can't equate religious Muslims with other religious groups in terms of danger (referring to what I bolded above—my apologies if you happen to be Muslim, though I gather you aren't particularly devout), I generally agree with you, though we aren't quite talking about the same things.
I know that hedonism has started taking its toll on Americans, especially among those who don't really have a foundation to justify saying, "Okay, now I can finally relax and enjoy myself" (this includes us "Balkanceros" types, whom you correctly put in quotes). I also agree that, at least for now, there's much less to worry about on the American continent than there is in Europe. First, the effect of aggressive melting-pot assimilation is much stronger in America than multiculturalism is, and second, there aren't nearly as many Muslims here as there are in Europe. Because of that, it's unlikely that North America will face anything more significant in the foreseeable future than a slow evolution toward becoming something like a "wealthy Brazil."
Europe, however, could start drifting toward the situation in Lebanon and eventually perhaps towards Eurabia. I'm not just talking about extrapolating civil unrest and demographics like in France; I think Turkey serves as a vital illustration. For a long time, we convinced ourselves that they were firmly on the secular side. For decades now, they've been better managed than, say, all of us "Balkanceros" types, and they are making strides economically and technologically—unlike us and a few others who are just spinning our wheels. Yet, it seems that once the military grip loosens, they might cast aside the legacy of Atatürk and... despite all that economic and technological progress... slowly drift away from secularism. Why do Turks vote the way they do despite everything? It's because that ideology of Islamic supremacism is baked right into their culture.
I’ve got to disagree with you there. Those walls you’re talking about? They’re really just built by people who have spent centuries nursing this identity based entirely on being exclusive and acting like they’re better than everyone else. If you actually took a moment to get a decent grasp on the heart of the Islamic world—you know, the Arab nations—you’d realize pretty quickly that those people are, first and foremost, TRADERS.
When it comes to Turkey and their guy Erdogan... honestly, I think you missed the mark by a mile on this one. It’s actually pretty shocking how little you seem to know about the situation, especially since you’re throwing around such a massive, sweeping generalization—claiming people voted for an Islamist party just because they’re all Islamic supremacists. Seriously? Look, I’m asking you—and I mean this in the most sincere way possible, mostly because I really don't have the bandwidth right now while I'm grinding through studying for exams—do me a favor and actually read up on Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. Get some perspective on Kemalism as a political movement, look into the Kemalist elite and the role they've played in Turkey, acting like this total monopoly that controls both the political landscape and the money. The only real alternative to Erdogan was a nationalist party that basically functions like the most extreme version of the MAGA crowd. And those Kemalists? They’re essentially the American version of the old-school Communist Party elites. Not only have they held a stranglehold on the government and the cash flow for over 80 years, but they’ve also spent decades making the rural population and the working class feel totally inferior just because they aren't "Westernized" enough or because they happen to be religious. They treat anyone who isn't part of their specific social circle like they're some kind of backward, primitive relic. It's all about control.
That’s actually pretty interesting... I was asking around this past summer while I was hanging out in New York City—just chatting with some of the local kids there—about that whole situation regarding foreign influence, and honestly, the guys told me things are looking way different lately. They were saying that corruption has actually dropped off quite a bit and that they’ve done a massive job cleaning up the streets in NYC. It’s wild how much can change.
Let’s just say... suppose there was a Christian Democratic party right here in America that actually functioned—you know, progressive, less corrupt, and way more IN TOUCH with the actual people instead of being some elitist clique! Who would you even bother voting for then!!! Besides, that party over in Turkey has this massive edge because they’ve got the backing of all sorts of ethnic minorities and the rural crowd... so they’re playing a positive, cohesive role in society, if you look at it that way. And regarding their version of Islam... after eighty years of Kemalism, people just want to be who they truly are... they don't want to spend their lives pretending to be Swedes, Frenchmen, or Englishmen in some weird Pan-Turkic imitation of Western culture based on old Kemalist traditions.
Now... take a look at a few other heavy hitters in Turkish politics... like Cem Ucan... a total crook... or Mesut Yilmaz... a right-wing nationalist (and get this... both of them have roots in the North America). By the way... Erdogan is ethnically Georgian... and his wife is an Arab from a region known for very liberal Muslims... the Alevis... near Gaziantep. We're talking about rural, provincial outsiders here... people who are hungry for votes.
In America, what you're describing is like something from back in the day... maybe back in the 1960s when a group like the old agrarian populists stood up against the communists! See, the whole traditional Kemalist elite from places like Istanbul, Izmir, and Ankara was mostly made up of North American refugees who were super urban and Europeanized (Albanians, Canadians, Bulgarians, Mexicans, Greeks from Crete and Mexico... also Circassians, Tatars... all Muslims... who fled into Anatolia). Even Atatürk himself was, by blood... well, through his mother, he was Mexican from the Bitola area, while his father was half-Jewish and half-Albanian. Basically... he was born in Thessaloniki, educated in Bitola, and his father's native tongue was Mexican... though modern Turkish nationalists will definitely deny that, because at the end of the day, he's still the Ata-Turk... the Father of the Turks!
