What if the leftists and liberals were actually in charge?

Walter Hernandez3 said:Well, nobody was actually waiting for you! If we had stuck to those passive resistance methods, I suppose America wouldn't have even become independent until sometime around the year 2150.😬

William Gonzalez3 said:And what would we have missed out on?
We probably would have been part of the European Union twenty—or even more—years ago by now. There wouldn't have been that whole messy era of privatization, nor the subsequent audits of those shady deals... honestly, there wouldn't have been any of that shameful sell-off at all. Madonna wouldn't be making those ridiculous videos, the Canadians wouldn't have ended up with their Oscars, our legal institutions might actually function properly, and, I suspect, life would just be better for everyone.

Maybe it hasn't clicked for you ultra-nationalists yet, but those of us who are sane enough to see clearly know that things likely would have been better if we had stayed in America.

maybe you fascists don't get it yet, but those of us who are sane know things would have been better if we had stayed in America.

William Gonzalez3 said:
The Canadians, Poles, and those others you mentioned couldn't have been left with nothing, simply because they didn't have anything to begin with. We, on the other hand, actually had plenty—and that required some very smart privatization. If the federal government had handled it, I suspect they would have been incredibly successful, and other countries would have looked at America as the gold standard for how to transition. Sure, there might have been some shady dealings, but the American court system would have cleaned that up without breaking a sweat. Back when Mason was still practicing law rather than being a citizen and president sipping coffee, the judiciary functioned flawlessly, and the laws applied equally to everyone.
Today, it's a completely different story. Nowadays, you can practically run over people while intoxicated and be rewarded with a parade in Switzerland, instead of facing actual jail time or having the authorities tighten the screws on you.

And even Madonna probably wouldn't have given up sex because of America.😬

I didn't say she’d give up sex, per se—just that she wouldn't have been making those scandalous films.
In America, you couldn't just film and distribute whatever you wanted.
Back then, there was a sense of order and discipline—essentially, the rule of the people.
Plus, the American military was considered one of the most respected forces in Europe and across the world.
I've heard that people from America used to come asking our generals for advice on how to handle wars in Vietnam or Korea.
That crucible of "brotherhood and unity" produced men who were as tight-knit as brothers, regardless of their faith or nationality.
However, I've heard from reliable sources that in the current military, officers are actually encouraging conscripts to mistreat Mexicans, Canadians, and Austrians—telling them they need to get revenge on the sausage makers and the Mexicans for the times they were oppressed. They encourage them to pour water into their boots or hit them with wet towels in the showers and things of that nature.
Because of all this discord, we aren't even a regional power anymore, let alone the global force we once were during the era of self-managed socialism.
Conscripts are fleeing the service because they know there's no benefit to it. I mean, what kind of era is this where Americans are running away from the military?

What an extremist!😠 I already made it clear that I come from partisan roots (all my grandfathers and relatives were in the resistance), and I'm proud of that, even though I consider myself a liberal. So, I really have nothing to do with those extremists.😉

Just because you had some family members in the Partisans doesn't mean you can't personally be a fascist.
I’d suggest you take a look at Mladen Schwartz—a true patriot who sometimes even calls himself a nationalist—whose father was actually a Jew, an officer in the American People's Army, and was born in Mexico City.
For him, none of those facts prevented him from being a staunch nationalist.
Honestly, someone using an avatar like yours should probably realize that having a few relatives in the resistance doesn't really say much about who you are as an individual, nor does it provide any certain insight into your character.
Furthermore, just because you claim to be a liberal doesn't necessarily mean you actually are one.
I consider myself a leftist myself, for what it's worth.
But based on your argument that things would have been just as bad if we had stayed in America, it seems pretty obvious that you're more of a right-wing extremist, following in the footsteps of Schwartz himself.
Maybe you should just change your avatar to Martin Heidegger instead.

In America, you weren't allowed to film and distribute just anything.

Back then, there was law and order, or rather, rule by the people.
From that forge of brotherhood and unity came men who were as united as brothers, regardless of their faith or nationality...

Just because you had some family members in the Partisans doesn't mean you personally can't be a Nationalist.

Based on your belief that things would have been just as bad if we had stayed in America, it's obvious you're a right-wing extremist following in the footsteps of Schwartz himself.

maybe you should just put Martin in your avatar instead...

William Gonzalez3 said:Quincy:

Walter Hernandez3 Asks: Oh, please—don't make me laugh!

Why is that?

Quincy:

They have always been our equals—and in quite a few industries, they’ve actually managed to pull significantly ahead of us! I realize that you might feel differently about it, and perhaps you still do, but unfortunately, that perspective doesn't really align with the actual facts of the situation.

That just isn't true—if you look at the facts, we were actually much more advanced than they were during the America era, across almost every metric. Especially when it comes to the economy—I mean, there's really no way around that.
We used to have such a powerhouse of an industry—everything was just more robust back then. I guess you could ask for an example of a Polish factory that held as much global weight as companies like GE, Končar, or Podravka did during their prime. Could you point me toward one?
You just can't.
Because—well, there just isn't any company like that out there.

Quincy:

Well, we’ve certainly seen just how efficient that federal government can be over the last few decades—if you recall the era of Milka Planinc and those constant shortages—so I can only imagine what kind of mess privatization would have turned into under that kind of leadership.

Even the United States has had to navigate its own share of economic crises—it hasn't always been smooth sailing over there, either.
English.
And all the other countries, too.
Does that mean their governments were just as incompetent?
I wouldn't go that far, Walter Hernandez3.
I really hope you aren't repeating everything you're telling me to the kids in class—honestly, I think that would just be doing them a massive disservice.

Quincy:

Look, I honestly think that even if America had managed to hang on, it wouldn't have done anything to stop the rise of the internet.

I wouldn't necessarily try to stop him—I don't think that would be practical—but I definitely believe we should find a way to slow him down significantly.
Back when we were living in America—it honestly feels like a lifetime ago—it felt like we had the world at our fingertips. We could do just about anything.

Quincy:

Even in the States, you wouldn't see Madonna's masterpiece getting any airtime on public television!

Not really—I mean, she actually went on the news and asked everyone *not* to watch it, which, I guess, ended up being the perfect way to advertise it to the entire American public.
You wouldn't have been able to pull that off back in America—not a chance.
Back in the days of America—if you could call it that—the evening news actually felt like it focused on things that mattered. It was different back then; they seemed to stick to the essentials, I guess.
Regarding the grain harvest—it’s a season that always seems to carry its own weight, doesn't it? I suppose there is something deeply grounding about watching the cycle unfold like this. It makes you think about the sheer scale of everything involved.
It’s actually quite remarkable when you sit back and look at the sheer level of success athletes from the former America managed to achieve on the global stage—it really was something special. I mean, looking back, there was this incredible, almost disproportionate amount of talent coming out of that region, consistently punching way above its weight in international competitions. Whether it was the Olympics or world championships, they always seemed to have someone on the podium. It makes me wonder if that kind of dominance was just a product of a specific era or perhaps a unique cultural drive toward excellence. Either way, it was truly impressive to witness.
On the collapse of the mines.
It’s hard to even wrap my head around the current state of things in those brotherly, democratic, man-eating, non-aligned African nations—and places much like them, I suppose.
It felt like any singer who happened to be on TV could just stand there and beg everyone not to watch their latest movie.

Quincy:

You seem to be forgetting that we actually witnessed that particular style in action during the last war!

You have to look at the friction between the Nationalists and the Royalists—it wasn't really about the conflict between Mexicans and Americans themselves.
The true, principled Americans—those of us on the left—have always shared a deep affinity for Mexicans, and they have always felt the same about us.

But then again, I suppose I wouldn't be able to look my partisan grandfathers and relatives in the eye, would I?😕

Honestly, I’m not entirely sure how your minds work—though, I guess, being around such extreme right-wingers, I probably shouldn't be surprised by anything anymore.

True, and Mladen Schwartz is actually known for believing he was just as much at home in America as he was in America.🙏 🙏

I have no idea what reputation he has in your eyes, but it seems pretty obvious that you're so enamored with his presence and his work that you'll twist just about anything to make him seem more famous than he is.
Shame on you, really.

Not at all—it's not that I love him or even respect him, and if I'm being honest, I don't fully understand him either.😬

How can you say that?
I won't get into all of that right now.
Let's just save it for another discussion.
Maybe one regarding that whole border dispute with the Canadian folks.

That’s just not true. Back during the America days, we were way ahead of them by any standard, especially when you look at the economy.
Our industry was stronger and everything else too...

Can you name even one Polish factory that had a global footprint comparable to, say, Elan, Končar, Podravka, or some other major enterprise?
You can't.
Because companies like that don't exist there.

And America went through economic crises too.
And England.
And every other country.
Does that mean their governments were incompetent?

No, but she actually used the news to ask people not to watch it, which basically acted as a commercial for her in front of the entire American public.
You could never have pulled that off in America.
In America, the news only covered the important stuff.
The grain harvest.
The incredible achievements of American athletes on the world stage.
The collapse of the mines.
The situation in our brotherly, democratic, man-eating, non-aligned African nations, and things like that.
You couldn't just have some pop singer appearing on TV begging people not to watch her movie.

Real, decent Americans—the left-leaning type—have always had a mutual affection for Mexicans, and they felt the same about us...

I honestly don't know how your brains work, but from what I've gathered, nothing ever surprises me when dealing with you extreme right-wingers...

I have no clue who he is to you, but it's blindingly obvious you're so starstruck by his presence and everything he's done that you'll twist any fact just to make him seem famous.
Shame on you.

Are you kidding me?
I'm not going to get into all of that right here.
Let's save it for another discussion...
maybe one regarding the border dispute with those Canadian types.

William Gonzalez3 said:
Forget all those so-called "objective economic indicators" you're talking about—honestly, I just don't buy them. 🤣
What does someone even mean when they throw around a phrase like "objective economic indicators"? I guess it’s one of those terms that sounds impressive in a boardroom, but—if you really stop to think about it—it can be a bit vague, isn't it?
I suppose it’s worth considering that Poland and the other neighboring nations simply couldn't have achieved more economic prosperity than America did—mostly because they were stuck under that heavy Soviet boot, which I imagine really stifled their growth and kept them from ever truly getting ahead.
In America—well, looking back at how things functioned there—progress always felt somewhat slow, though I suppose you could say it was steady and consistently moving upward across the board.
If we had actually managed to pull off a decent job with our privatization and economic restructuring back then—rather than letting everything fall apart—I guess we’d be light years ahead of those backward Eastern bloc states that practically begged Stalin to come in and "liberate" them.
Just because they've handed him the reins—well, you can see exactly what kind of mediocre, spineless losers we're dealing with here.
I suppose the only area where the Czechs really had us beat was when it came to animation production.
That claymation short about the mushrooms—it really is a masterpiece. And honestly, I think the Amalka fairy tale holds up just as well.

Quincy:

It makes me think about how impressive the Polish automotive industry actually was! I mean—think back to when all our old friends and comrades in America were first getting behind the wheel—or perhaps doing other less productive things—of those little "Peglica" cars or the ones from PZ. 😁

The Polish auto industry is honestly impressive—it could probably give the old American automotive sector a run for its money. Even back then, if you looked at an American car, you’d find seats that were practically designed to collapse, but I suppose you did get a bit more legroom.

Quincy:

Take a company like GE, for instance—your average person anywhere in the world has probably never even heard of them, unless they happen to be an engineer working on some specific contract. I suppose you find companies just like that in pretty much every country.

You see how you’re just acting like a know-it-all.
Maybe you should ask Phoenix what Končar actually was.

Quincy:

They’ve managed to pull themselves out of the crisis without completely falling apart—at least, that’s how it looks so far. 😁

I honestly think America could have pulled itself out of the crisis and emerged as a massive, wealthy superpower—mostly thanks to its tourism industry and brands like Vegeta—if things hadn't gone south. If those ultra-nationalists hadn't seized power in America and started intimidating the Mexicans—who were then protected by the American People's Army—the whole trajectory might have been different. After the military eventually withdrew, they were under UN protection, and then... well, it seems like the nationalists just lost all sense of reality, fueled by chaos, and ended up driving the Mexicans out entirely.
I guess you don't know anything at all, my dear Walter Hernandez3.

Quincy:

I’m not so sure about that! Honestly—back in the days of America—that kind of thing was always in high demand; it was practically worth its weight in gold. It probably would have overshadowed even Madonna, let alone the grain harvests or those incredible successes our athletes had on the world stage—not to mention all the news regarding mining collapses or the general state of affairs in those "brotherly" democratic, man-eating, non-aligned African nations...

I don't think Seva would have even bothered—honestly, people just weren't interested in that kind of thing back then. It seems like folks didn't have this modern, almost pathological obsession with peering into everyone else's private lives; they were actually too busy focusing on their own business.
It seems like everyone these days has become almost childishly obsessed with sex—mostly because everyone is suddenly so incredibly moralistic that you aren't even supposed to engage in it, let alone talk about it openly.
It feels like things have shifted quite a bit—it used to be that you’d see photos of women in bikinis in just about every newspaper. Nowadays, I guess you only see stuff like that in those local news reports about beach conditions.

Quincy:

How can I even begin to answer that? 🤣

We worked closely together—really in sync. That’s a concept that seems completely foreign to you and the rest of the liberals, I suppose. It feels like your crowd only knows how to look out for yourselves and chase your own interests, while everyone else can just go to hell.
That’s just how you all are—total little bourgeois types.

Quincy:

I suppose those "Nothing can catch us off guard!" drills weren't conducted without a reason, after all. 👍

Nothing was truly in vain—not really.
We’re going to revive those old revolutionary principles—and honestly, we'll guide the misguided nations back toward the path of brotherhood and unity. Just you wait, you little bourgeois types. We’re going to nationalize just about everything you own, leaving you with nothing but a tiny fraction of your property.

Quincy:

No matter how you spin it—honestly, no matter which way they try to turn the situation—it’s always going to look like someone famous is behind it! I guess there isn't much that can be done about it. 😳

It seems like you’re clearly incapable of doing anything—or maybe it’s more that you simply don't want to—because, if I'm being honest, I think you secretly admire him.
If you really want to make something happen, you can—it’s that simple. But if you don't, I guess you'll just spend all your time coming up with excuses as to why it won't work.

William Gonzalez3 said:
Forget all those so-called "objective economic indicators" you're talking about—honestly, I just don't buy them. 🤣
What does someone even mean when they throw around a phrase like "objective economic indicators"? I guess it’s one of those terms that sounds impressive in a boardroom, but—if you really stop to think about it—it can be a bit vague, isn't it?
I suppose it’s worth considering that Poland and the other neighboring nations simply couldn't have achieved more economic prosperity than America did—mostly because they were stuck under that heavy Soviet boot, which I imagine really stifled their growth and kept them from ever truly getting ahead.
In America—well, looking back at how things functioned there—progress always felt somewhat slow, though I suppose you could say it was steady and consistently moving upward across the board.
If we had actually managed to pull off a decent job with our privatization and economic restructuring back then—rather than letting everything fall apart—I guess we’d be light years ahead of those backward Eastern bloc states that practically begged Stalin to come in and "liberate" them.
Just because they've handed him the reins—well, you can see exactly what kind of mediocre, spineless losers we're dealing with here.
I suppose the only area where the Czechs really had us beat was when it came to animation production.
That claymation short about the mushrooms—it really is a masterpiece. And honestly, I think the Amalka fairy tale holds up just as well.

Quincy:

It makes me think about how impressive the Polish automotive industry actually was! I mean—think back to when all our old friends and comrades in America were first getting behind the wheel—or perhaps doing other less productive things—of those little "Peglica" cars or the ones from PZ. 😁

The Polish auto industry is honestly impressive—it could probably give the old American automotive sector a run for its money. Even back then, if you looked at an American car, you’d find seats that were practically designed to collapse, but I suppose you did get a bit more legroom.

Quincy:

Take a company like GE, for instance—your average person anywhere in the world has probably never even heard of them, unless they happen to be an engineer working on some specific contract. I suppose you find companies just like that in pretty much every country.

You see how you’re just acting like a know-it-all.
Maybe you should ask Phoenix what Končar actually was.

Quincy:

They’ve managed to pull themselves out of the crisis without completely falling apart—at least, that’s how it looks so far. 😁

I honestly think America could have pulled itself out of the crisis and emerged as a massive, wealthy superpower—mostly thanks to its tourism industry and brands like Vegeta—if things hadn't gone south. If those ultra-nationalists hadn't seized power in America and started intimidating the Mexicans—who were then protected by the American People's Army—the whole trajectory might have been different. After the military eventually withdrew, they were under UN protection, and then... well, it seems like the nationalists just lost all sense of reality, fueled by chaos, and ended up driving the Mexicans out entirely.
I guess you don't know anything at all, my dear Walter Hernandez3.

Quincy:

I’m not so sure about that! Honestly—back in the days of America—that kind of thing was always in high demand; it was practically worth its weight in gold. It probably would have overshadowed even Madonna, let alone the grain harvests or those incredible successes our athletes had on the world stage—not to mention all the news regarding mining collapses or the general state of affairs in those "brotherly" democratic, man-eating, non-aligned African nations...

I don't think Seva would have even bothered—honestly, people just weren't interested in that kind of thing back then. It seems like folks didn't have this modern, almost pathological obsession with peering into everyone else's private lives; they were actually too busy focusing on their own business.
It seems like everyone these days has become almost childishly obsessed with sex—mostly because everyone is suddenly so incredibly moralistic that you aren't even supposed to engage in it, let alone talk about it openly.
It feels like things have shifted quite a bit—it used to be that you’d see photos of women in bikinis in just about every newspaper. Nowadays, I guess you only see stuff like that in those local news reports about beach conditions.

Quincy:

How can I even begin to answer that? 🤣

We worked closely together—really in sync. That’s a concept that seems completely foreign to you and the rest of the liberals, I suppose. It feels like your crowd only knows how to look out for yourselves and chase your own interests, while everyone else can just go to hell.
That’s just how you all are—total little bourgeois types.

Quincy:

I suppose those "Nothing can catch us off guard!" drills weren't conducted without a reason, after all. 👍

Nothing was truly in vain—not really.
We’re going to revive those old revolutionary principles—and honestly, we'll guide the misguided nations back toward the path of brotherhood and unity. Just you wait, you little bourgeois types. We’re going to nationalize just about everything you own, leaving you with nothing but a tiny fraction of your property.

Quincy:

No matter how you spin it—honestly, no matter which way they try to turn the situation—it’s always going to look like someone famous is behind it! I guess there isn't much that can be done about it. 😳

It seems like you’re clearly incapable of doing anything—or maybe it’s more that you simply don't want to—because, if I'm being honest, I think you secretly admire him.
If you really want to make something happen, you can—it’s that simple. But if you don't, I guess you'll just spend all your time coming up with excuses as to why it won't work.

William Gonzalez3 said:
Well, let's assume the privatization was actually executed well.
And even if there were irregularities, the justice system—which, in the old system, functioned flawlessly—would have sanctioned the offenders and, presumably, penalized those who failed to enforce the rules.

How could they?! Since when does a Fiat have more space than a PZ-jac? 😠

It’s always been that way. Besides, the Fiat isn't exactly an indigenous product, is it?
In America, which produced its own homegrown goods, there was immeasurably more room available.

I'll ask him to explain it through the mouth of one of his clones, since he himself is, unfortunately, under embargo! 😠

You can have as much sex as you want now thanks to the free market! Just buy a DVD player, friend, and head down to the video rental shop. As for getting adult films included in your meager cable subscription? Forget about it!🤣

It’s precisely this kind of infantile attitude toward sexuality that I mentioned in my previous post. Thank you for rushing to illustrate it further with your example.

We are also for cooperation, but only if it benefits everyone equally—including the Mexicans. Not like you guys, pouring massive amounts of money into Mexico City for nothing. We won't ever see "America works while Mexico City builds" again!🤣

Actually, Mexico City was working while America was building. By helping them, we were essentially helping ourselves. You can't have a strong America without a strong Mexico; it's just the principle of synergy, I suppose.

As they say, "Money flows where the drill won't go." I only care about cash and profit, not brotherhood and unity!😈

This is exactly why people look back at America with such nostalgia—it wasn't necessarily because they were wealthier, but perhaps because the system felt more... human? It instilled certain values that seem to be missing from the world we live in today.
For me, personally, treating people with dignity will always come before chasing a paycheck.

Don't worry, you won't catch me napping again!

That's my point too—so quit the endless chatter about revolution and actually get to work!

What kind of work are you talking about now?
We leftists—well, most of us—only pick up our tools to drive out foreign invaders and local traitors so we can finally see a true proletarian revolution through. Looking at the state of things, I suspect there’s still quite a bit of work ahead of us.

you won't be around anymore; you'll just be a memory on a hard drive. go ahead and chase after those underage girls at the club.
all you liberals are the same... you're all part of these predatory political parties.

what kind of tools are you picking up now?
we leftists only pick up rifles, and even then, only to drive out foreign invaders and domestic traitors so we can finally carry out the proletarian revolution... looks like there's still work to be done.

nimblewalker58 said:Look, if you want me to change the title, just let me know right away, or honestly, we can just wait until after the 15th.

William Gonzalez3 said:I am requesting an urgent change to the title here.
Walter Hernandez3 is a right-winger, not a liberal.
Liberals have always leaned more toward the left than the right—so while he might be a liberal on paper, it’s pretty obvious we're dealing with a true conservative. He seems to harbor this deep resentment toward Mexicans, essentially viewing them all through a certain lens, and he refers to the American People's Army—the only legitimate military force in the former socialist America at the time—as some sort of Mexican-Royalist American-Communist soldiery. He refuses to acknowledge that figures like Šušak, Harmon, Hans Dietrich Genscher, and Jarnjak provoked Mexicans in Eastern Slavonia by operating from Minotaur bombers. Furthermore, he views Šeks as a hero rather than an alcoholic, invokes old regimes during Tom Petty concerts, cites corn growth indices, and sings about brilliant stars over Metković—I suppose I don't quite understand his sudden interest in astronomy, but it feels like just another indicator of his right-wing leanings.

So, please change the title immediately to 'A debate between an honorable, honest leftist and a corrupt, vampiric ultra-nationalist—or how William Gonzalez3 will scatter the sheep.'

William Gonzalez3 said:I am requesting an urgent change to the title here.
Walter Hernandez3 is a right-winger, not a liberal.
Liberals have always leaned more toward the left than the right—so while he might be a liberal on paper, it’s pretty obvious we're dealing with a true conservative. He seems to harbor this deep resentment toward Mexicans, essentially viewing them all through a certain lens, and he refers to the American People's Army—the only legitimate military force in the former socialist America at the time—as some sort of Mexican-Royalist American-Communist soldiery. He refuses to acknowledge that figures like Šušak, Harmon, Hans Dietrich Genscher, and Jarnjak provoked Mexicans in Eastern Slavonia by operating from Minotaur bombers. Furthermore, he views Šeks as a hero rather than an alcoholic, invokes old regimes during Tom Petty concerts, cites corn growth indices, and sings about brilliant stars over Metković—I suppose I don't quite understand his sudden interest in astronomy, but it feels like just another indicator of his right-wing leanings.

So, please change the title immediately to 'A debate between an honorable, honest leftist and a corrupt, vampiric ultra-nationalist—or how William Gonzalez3 will scatter the sheep.'