What are the long-term effects of lack of moderation? Looking for explanations.

Summary:
So, get this—because the PDF side of the forum hasn't been moderated in forever, you can actually end up getting a permanent ban from the entire site just by racking up points! It’s wild. Instead of just getting hit with a ban on a specific section, you get the whole works—no heads-up, no warning, nothing. And the worst part? They don't even care about mitigating circumstances when deciding how hard to drop the hammer. Like, seriously?! Just total overkill without any chance to explain yourself.

Hey admin, I've got a few quick questions for you!
Where’s the justice in all this? Seriously, where's the quality control when it comes to actually doing the job—and more importantly, where's the oversight from the forum admins?
How do we even give a guy like this a fair shake? I mean, seriously—how can we ensure he gets a legit process when you factor in all the mitigating circumstances? We're talking about the sheer negligence from the mods and the admin team... plus, let's not forget the massive contribution he actually made to that PDF! It’s gotta count for something, right?

SUBJECT/CASE
Long story short:
Man, that PDF hasn't been moderated at all for like a month straight! Seriously!

Finally, someone from the admin team stepped up to fix this—thank you!—but man, things got a little messy in the rush. Since they were playing catch-up with all the unmoderated posts, they ended up nuking a specific user's posts so fast that their points just skyrocketed. Instead of getting hit with a standard 1, 3, 7, or even a 30-day ban, the guy ended up getting slapped with an instant permanent ban from the entire forum!

In a sane world, if this guy was actually being moderated properly, he’d have been slapped with a multi-day ban by now—just enough time to go cool off and maybe, I don't know, actually think about his actions so he doesn't keep pulling the same nonsense!
So, this is how you get slapped with a permanent ban from the entire forum—zero warnings, no nothing. Just straight to jail!

It’s kind of like how things work in the real world, too—take a criminal who gets put on probation for a set period. If they go out and commit another crime while they're still under that supervision, they don't get a second chance; they just face the full, unconditional sentence. No questions asked!

Look, when that moment actually hits, the defendant’s got plenty of constitutional backup—we're talking two or even three different legal avenues to mount a defense!

That hasn't been sorted out for that particular forum member yet!
So, basically, you could start by hitting them with an X-day ban—and if they still don't get the hint and keep acting up? Then you step it up to a longer suspension, or even just a "hey, watch it" warning that a permanent ban from that specific PDF or the entire forum is looming right around the corner!

When it comes to sentencing, the court doesn't just pull numbers out of thin air—they actually look at a whole bunch of extra factors too! mitigating circumstances...which could actually help lower the fine—or maybe even get the whole thing tossed out entirely!

That one user is seriously crushing it—they're helping everyone out so much with those specific PDF topics!

Just wanted to jump in and say that @Rorion was actually a top-tier contributor over at Alternative—he consistently dropped some really high-quality posts. This is for anyone else who actually lives and breathes that same Alternative scene.

There’s also this other thing I gotta bring up: if certain individuals (not gonna list them because they’ve already been called out a million times), who are constantly attacking people, being insulting, fueling drama, and contributing absolutely zero value to the discussion, haven't even been hit with a two-day ban, then why did @Rorion get a permanent ban (assuming that's even what happened)?
I’d love to see a coherent explanation for this.

Look, I’m not acting as anyone’s "defense attorney" or anything like that. I’m just genuinely curious—why aren't the rules applied equally to everyone?
@Rorion didn't come anywhere close to insulting or belittling those people, unlike how they treated him (and the rest of us who just happen to have opinions that are diametrically opposed to theirs).
He added so much value to the threads, and honestly, I think this whole situation is just plain unfair and wrong. Not just to him, but to the integrity of the Alternative PDF itself. The guy clearly knows his stuff and has real experience.

Maybe he got too used to the low-level communication and went a bit overboard—in my opinion, anyway. But it wasn't even remotely close to how his opponents acted, and they haven't faced any sanctions at all.

The only way I can make sense of this is one of two things: either whoever banned him fell for the trap set by those 2 or 3 aggressive posts where they were practically begging for him to be banned (without the mods actually looking at how much junk they were posting themselves), or the ban was just pre-programmed.

In just a handful of posts, @Rorion contributed infinitely more than all those characters combined, even with their tens of thousands of posts.

Amanda Hughes5 said:Just wanted to jump in and say that @Rorion was actually a top-tier contributor over at Alternative—he consistently dropped some really high-quality posts. This is for anyone else who actually lives and breathes that same Alternative scene.

There’s also this other thing I gotta bring up: if certain individuals (not gonna list them because they’ve already been called out a million times), who are constantly attacking people, being insulting, fueling drama, and contributing absolutely zero value to the discussion, haven't even been hit with a two-day ban, then why did @Rorion get a permanent ban (assuming that's even what happened)?
I’d love to see a coherent explanation for this.

Look, I’m not acting as anyone’s "defense attorney" or anything like that. I’m just genuinely curious—why aren't the rules applied equally to everyone?
@Rorion didn't come anywhere close to insulting or belittling those people, unlike how they treated him (and the rest of us who just happen to have opinions that are diametrically opposed to theirs).
He added so much value to the threads, and honestly, I think this whole situation is just plain unfair and wrong. Not just to him, but to the integrity of the Alternative PDF itself. The guy clearly knows his stuff and has real experience.

Maybe he got too used to the low-level communication and went a bit overboard—in my opinion, anyway. But it wasn't even remotely close to how his opponents acted, and they haven't faced any sanctions at all.

The only way I can make sense of this is one of two things: either whoever banned him fell for the trap set by those 2 or 3 aggressive posts where they were practically begging for him to be banned (without the mods actually looking at how much junk they were posting themselves), or the ban was just pre-programmed.

In just a handful of posts, @Rorion contributed infinitely more than all those characters combined, even with their tens of thousands of posts.

Let me address just the part regarding NRZ. Out of his nearly 5,000 posts, about 4,000 were nothing but pure trolling, ad hominem attacks, derailment, mocking people, and tasteless comments that have recently turned into blatant insults. Using profanity against parents, telling people "go do chores at home," saying things like "you stink," or calling someone an "idiot"—absolutely NO ONE, and I mean nobody, used that kind of language except him. And he used it constantly and aggressively against anyone who "dared" to disagree with him. Sure, he had a few other forum members backing him up in a similar (though slightly milder) way, but they've all gone quiet now.
I don't want to dive into specific threads I wasn't part of, but it’s really strange that complaints weren't just coming from NRZ, but from basically every corner of the Alternative section.
If you don't believe me, just take a stroll through the NRZ section and look at his old posts... you'll see for yourself exactly what "style" he used when debating.

Also, regarding the eternal defender, Gregory Ramirez2. If he had been hit with just 10 points for every single post that should have been reported... he would have racked up a few thousand. He was dropping maybe thirty insulting posts a day—stuff that would get any moderator on any major US forum to permanently ban him. Here, he was tolerated, given warnings, and we didn't go overboard with moderation, but when someone crosses the line, they cross it. And no, a 5-day cooling-off period wouldn't have helped. Every time he got one of those breaks, he’d come back even harder and even more aggressive.
And don't think it's just my opinion; that's why I'm speaking up now. Even though I only participate in a few specific threads, there was clearly a whole group of users from other sections who were fed up.

And honestly, Gregory Ramirez2, invoking justice and fairness is a little funny coming from someone who constantly cites the forum and sub-forum rules and dreams of becoming a moderator, isn't it, Gregory Ramirez2? The rules are the same for you, for me, and for him. We can debate, but let's keep it civil as much as possible. Anyone who breaks them gets kicked out. It doesn't matter how many great, high-quality posts they've written elsewhere. I could list a ton of users who might be a bit eccentric but write incredibly insightful stuff on many topics. But the rule applies to everyone, regardless.

I haven't even bothered checking out the other PDFs, so I can't really say anything about them.
If that's how it is, then fine by me.
I've got nothing else to add.

Brenda Gonzalez12 said:Let me address just the part regarding NRZ. Out of his nearly 5,000 posts, about 4,000 were nothing but pure trolling, ad hominem attacks, derailment, mocking people, and tasteless comments that have recently turned into blatant insults. Using profanity against parents, telling people "go do chores at home," saying things like "you stink," or calling someone an "idiot"—absolutely NO ONE, and I mean nobody, used that kind of language except him. And he used it constantly and aggressively against anyone who "dared" to disagree with him. Sure, he had a few other forum members backing him up in a similar (though slightly milder) way, but they've all gone quiet now.
I don't want to dive into specific threads I wasn't part of, but it’s really strange that complaints weren't just coming from NRZ, but from basically every corner of the Alternative section.
If you don't believe me, just take a stroll through the NRZ section and look at his old posts... you'll see for yourself exactly what "style" he used when debating.

Also, regarding the eternal defender, Gregory Ramirez2. If he had been hit with just 10 points for every single post that should have been reported... he would have racked up a few thousand. He was dropping maybe thirty insulting posts a day—stuff that would get any moderator on any major US forum to permanently ban him. Here, he was tolerated, given warnings, and we didn't go overboard with moderation, but when someone crosses the line, they cross it. And no, a 5-day cooling-off period wouldn't have helped. Every time he got one of those breaks, he’d come back even harder and even more aggressive.
And don't think it's just my opinion; that's why I'm speaking up now. Even though I only participate in a few specific threads, there was clearly a whole group of users from other sections who were fed up.

And honestly, Gregory Ramirez2, invoking justice and fairness is a little funny coming from someone who constantly cites the forum and sub-forum rules and dreams of becoming a moderator, isn't it, Gregory Ramirez2? The rules are the same for you, for me, and for him. We can debate, but let's keep it civil as much as possible. Anyone who breaks them gets kicked out. It doesn't matter how many great, high-quality posts they've written elsewhere. I could list a ton of users who might be a bit eccentric but write incredibly insightful stuff on many topics. But the rule applies to everyone, regardless.

Who are you even talking about here? And where do we draw the line between just chatting and actually targeting another user?

Brenda Gonzalez12 said:Let me address just the part regarding NRZ. Out of his nearly 5,000 posts, about 4,000 were nothing but pure trolling, ad hominem attacks, derailment, mocking people, and tasteless comments that have recently turned into blatant insults. Using profanity against parents, telling people "go do chores at home," saying things like "you stink," or calling someone an "idiot"—absolutely NO ONE, and I mean nobody, used that kind of language except him. And he used it constantly and aggressively against anyone who "dared" to disagree with him. Sure, he had a few other forum members backing him up in a similar (though slightly milder) way, but they've all gone quiet now.
I don't want to dive into specific threads I wasn't part of, but it’s really strange that complaints weren't just coming from NRZ, but from basically every corner of the Alternative section.
If you don't believe me, just take a stroll through the NRZ section and look at his old posts... you'll see for yourself exactly what "style" he used when debating.

Also, regarding the eternal defender, Gregory Ramirez2. If he had been hit with just 10 points for every single post that should have been reported... he would have racked up a few thousand. He was dropping maybe thirty insulting posts a day—stuff that would get any moderator on any major US forum to permanently ban him. Here, he was tolerated, given warnings, and we didn't go overboard with moderation, but when someone crosses the line, they cross it. And no, a 5-day cooling-off period wouldn't have helped. Every time he got one of those breaks, he’d come back even harder and even more aggressive.
And don't think it's just my opinion; that's why I'm speaking up now. Even though I only participate in a few specific threads, there was clearly a whole group of users from other sections who were fed up.

And honestly, Gregory Ramirez2, invoking justice and fairness is a little funny coming from someone who constantly cites the forum and sub-forum rules and dreams of becoming a moderator, isn't it, Gregory Ramirez2? The rules are the same for you, for me, and for him. We can debate, but let's keep it civil as much as possible. Anyone who breaks them gets kicked out. It doesn't matter how many great, high-quality posts they've written elsewhere. I could list a ton of users who might be a bit eccentric but write incredibly insightful stuff on many topics. But the rule applies to everyone, regardless.

You want the truth?
Over a year ago, I actually wanted to be a moderator for Alternative. Back then, I was desperately trying to find medical help for my best friend's mom. See, before the search tool was opened up to everyone, only the mods and admins had access to it—and when you're trying to find life-saving info fast, every second counts. It was literally a matter of life and death for her. So, I reached out to rustydrifter10 personally about it.
She told me the mods pick their own people, and when I asked if there was a way to pay for access to the search tool, she said no. I'm only sharing this to show you guys I'm being 100% real and coming from a good place.

Lately, a few people have suggested I take on a mod role here, but I just don't have the time or the need anymore (the search tool is available to everyone now—it's not quite as powerful as the mod version, but it works). Good moderation takes a massive amount of time, effort, and serious self-control—like making sure you treat your buddies exactly the same as everyone else. I know this because I spent two years being a really dedicated [and highly praised!] supermod on an international forum. But between work and life, my free time is drying up as the year winds down.
So, I told them that while I'd love to help—mostly to keep the quality high and to protect people looking for help from getting bombarded by junk while they're searching—I just can't do it.

Ever since I was a kid, I've fought against injustice and tried to help whenever I could, but I won't let that fight come at the cost of my own sanity and life.

On the topic:
I really believe we should give people one last chance with a public warning before we basically "execute" or lynch them online—especially if they haven't had a fair shake at defending themselves.

Think about it: imagine if drivers didn't get tickets for minor infractions, but instead, one day they just had their licenses revoked for life. I'm not talking about extreme cases like reckless street racers or killers, obviously.

PS: Just so we're clear, these thoughts apply to all forum members, not just specific people.

It feels like a bit of an ambush, especially since the thread starter, Gregory Ramirez2, hasn't actually specified who we are even talking about ... I honestly don't know myself. 🤷
However, Monty is acting with total certainty, as if this whole thing is just about his personal obsession with Rorion.
If that’s actually the case—though I have no idea how long Rorion was actually banned— how on earth does Monty know that?
And how do the others know??????
Where was this ever officially announced????
How can Monty be so sure?
I'd love to hear Monty's explanation. 🙂

I have to agree with the OP that it was a massive mistake to let the Alternative subforum go without moderation for such a long stretch. We all saw that BAT Kol basically didn't moderate for months; he was effectively non-existent as a moderator, and Behemoth clearly just gave up because she was fed up with the injustice and the endless trolling and disruption caused by a handful of the same users. It seems like she just didn't want to waste any more energy fighting this coordinated, systematic trolling... which is a shame, because she was really the only one doing a good job over at Alternative. 🙏

Amanda Hughes5 said:Just wanted to jump in and say that @Rorion was actually a top-tier contributor over at Alternative—he consistently dropped some really high-quality posts. This is for anyone else who actually lives and breathes that same Alternative scene.

There’s also this other thing I gotta bring up: if certain individuals (not gonna list them because they’ve already been called out a million times), who are constantly attacking people, being insulting, fueling drama, and contributing absolutely zero value to the discussion, haven't even been hit with a two-day ban, then why did @Rorion get a permanent ban (assuming that's even what happened)?
I’d love to see a coherent explanation for this.

Look, I’m not acting as anyone’s "defense attorney" or anything like that. I’m just genuinely curious—why aren't the rules applied equally to everyone?
@Rorion didn't come anywhere close to insulting or belittling those people, unlike how they treated him (and the rest of us who just happen to have opinions that are diametrically opposed to theirs).
He added so much value to the threads, and honestly, I think this whole situation is just plain unfair and wrong. Not just to him, but to the integrity of the Alternative PDF itself. The guy clearly knows his stuff and has real experience.

Maybe he got too used to the low-level communication and went a bit overboard—in my opinion, anyway. But it wasn't even remotely close to how his opponents acted, and they haven't faced any sanctions at all.

The only way I can make sense of this is one of two things: either whoever banned him fell for the trap set by those 2 or 3 aggressive posts where they were practically begging for him to be banned (without the mods actually looking at how much junk they were posting themselves), or the ban was just pre-programmed.

In just a handful of posts, @Rorion contributed infinitely more than all those characters combined, even with their tens of thousands of posts.

A resounding YES!
Very few people contributed posts as constructive as Rorion's—the guy was a literal walking encyclopedia. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum with that much knowledge about plant 112, and I have to admit he helped me quite a bit; I learned a ton from his long, detailed posts.
I'm not saying that he didn't occasionally snap and fire back in kind when pushed by constant, relentless trolling from a certain group, but I believe (assuming he really did receive a permanent ban) that the forum lost a major expert who helped many people, and that it was a huge injustice.
I could probably name about ten other forum members who, by this logic, should have been permanently banned ages ago, and I could back that up with their numerous posts.
It makes it seem like their posts were either overlooked or simply never reported, because I can't think of any other way to explain how Rorion gets a permanent ban while some people don't even get a warning. 🤷

Amanda Hughes5 said:Just wanted to jump in and say that @Rorion was actually a top-tier contributor over at Alternative—he consistently dropped some really high-quality posts. This is for anyone else who actually lives and breathes that same Alternative scene.

There’s also this other thing I gotta bring up: if certain individuals (not gonna list them because they’ve already been called out a million times), who are constantly attacking people, being insulting, fueling drama, and contributing absolutely zero value to the discussion, haven't even been hit with a two-day ban, then why did @Rorion get a permanent ban (assuming that's even what happened)?
I’d love to see a coherent explanation for this.

Look, I’m not acting as anyone’s "defense attorney" or anything like that. I’m just genuinely curious—why aren't the rules applied equally to everyone?
@Rorion didn't come anywhere close to insulting or belittling those people, unlike how they treated him (and the rest of us who just happen to have opinions that are diametrically opposed to theirs).
He added so much value to the threads, and honestly, I think this whole situation is just plain unfair and wrong. Not just to him, but to the integrity of the Alternative PDF itself. The guy clearly knows his stuff and has real experience.

Maybe he got too used to the low-level communication and went a bit overboard—in my opinion, anyway. But it wasn't even remotely close to how his opponents acted, and they haven't faced any sanctions at all.

The only way I can make sense of this is one of two things: either whoever banned him fell for the trap set by those 2 or 3 aggressive posts where they were practically begging for him to be banned (without the mods actually looking at how much junk they were posting themselves), or the ban was just pre-programmed.

In just a handful of posts, @Rorion contributed infinitely more than all those characters combined, even with their tens of thousands of posts.

That's my question too. I've linked dozens of posts from plant 112 (I even sent private messages to higher-ups) where people are being called idiots or complete morons, and they didn't even get a yellow card. 🤷
I honestly don't know what to say.

It’s actually quite fascinating how Monty acts like Bogek—all-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing, and basically omnipresent. 🙏
He never misses an opportunity to jump into a thread where he can take a swing at any forum users he doesn't particularly care for. (Though, I suppose I should probably brace myself for a similar lynch mob directed at me shortly 🥳).
Monty, seriously, if you ever find yourself looking for work, just shoot me a DM. I might be able to help you out, seeing as you clearly have plenty of free time on your hands...

Brenda Gonzalez12 said:Let me address just the part regarding NRZ. Out of his nearly 5,000 posts, about 4,000 were nothing but pure trolling, ad hominem attacks, derailment, mocking people, and tasteless comments that have recently turned into blatant insults. Using profanity against parents, telling people "go do chores at home," saying things like "you stink," or calling someone an "idiot"—absolutely NO ONE, and I mean nobody, used that kind of language except him. And he used it constantly and aggressively against anyone who "dared" to disagree with him. Sure, he had a few other forum members backing him up in a similar (though slightly milder) way, but they've all gone quiet now.
I don't want to dive into specific threads I wasn't part of, but it’s really strange that complaints weren't just coming from NRZ, but from basically every corner of the Alternative section.
If you don't believe me, just take a stroll through the NRZ section and look at his old posts... you'll see for yourself exactly what "style" he used when debating.

Also, regarding the eternal defender, Gregory Ramirez2. If he had been hit with just 10 points for every single post that should have been reported... he would have racked up a few thousand. He was dropping maybe thirty insulting posts a day—stuff that would get any moderator on any major US forum to permanently ban him. Here, he was tolerated, given warnings, and we didn't go overboard with moderation, but when someone crosses the line, they cross it. And no, a 5-day cooling-off period wouldn't have helped. Every time he got one of those breaks, he’d come back even harder and even more aggressive.
And don't think it's just my opinion; that's why I'm speaking up now. Even though I only participate in a few specific threads, there was clearly a whole group of users from other sections who were fed up.

And honestly, Gregory Ramirez2, invoking justice and fairness is a little funny coming from someone who constantly cites the forum and sub-forum rules and dreams of becoming a moderator, isn't it, Gregory Ramirez2? The rules are the same for you, for me, and for him. We can debate, but let's keep it civil as much as possible. Anyone who breaks them gets kicked out. It doesn't matter how many great, high-quality posts they've written elsewhere. I could list a ton of users who might be a bit eccentric but write incredibly insightful stuff on many topics. But the rule applies to everyone, regardless.

🤦
I wonder where Monty got that notion?
I'd love to hear Monty's take on this.

Heaven forbid we end up with a moderator like Gregory Ramirez2...
But honestly, my bigger fear is that they'll force someone on us who has absolutely nothing to do with the Alternative, much like how Mary has nothing to do with a proper courtship...

I totally hear you on the lack of moderators being a massive headache, and I really hope we see some movement on that soon. That said, though, there’s just no excuse for anyone breaking the rules—especially when it comes to insults or more serious violations. We have to go into this assuming that everyone here is a grown adult capable of managing their own posts and taking ownership of what they say. This isn't a daycare, and we shouldn't have to teach people basic manners or how not to lash out at others; honestly, most of you have been around long enough to know better than that. A shortage of mods doesn't mean we should descend into total anarchy, either. If someone gets a permanent ban, they earned it a long time ago—it’s just that, until now, there wasn't much point in protecting them from the consequences.