Let's make a plan...

velvetpilot212 said:I’ve always had this nagging feeling—ever since I can remember—that I pretty much have the answer to every single question. I can try to argue against it or make excuses, but the truth is, I just know. There isn't really any other way to put it.
So you're telling me you don't?

Look, maybe I don't have a definitive answer for every little thing, but I definitely have this internal compass, this gut feeling that tells me when something is off, or fake, or just plain wrong. It’s hard to put a finger on exactly what it is, but it’s this unshakable sense of certainty about whether something is true or not.
And honestly, sometimes that intuition is completely at odds with how I actually behave.
If we're being totally real here, that's just how it goes. 🙄

So, yeah. Basically, I know. 🙂

Roger Hall15 said:Look, they actually do know. 🙂

I mean, 👍 everyone knows. They just cook up all these excuses and ridiculous little justifications to tell themselves, "Oh, please, it’s not my fault because I didn't realize," or maybe "I'm not being lazy, I just don't know how to do it"...

Everyone’s got their own version of the truth, I suppose. But that isn't really what we're getting at here.

Maybe they actually do know, and they’re just playing dumb, or perhaps they simply have no desire to find out. It’s possible they’re avoiding the facts so aggressively that they’ve managed to convince themselves they’re truly in the dark.
Sometimes the weight of it all is just too much, and the idea of knowing becomes something they physically can't stomach.
Honestly, who cares. It’s much easier to live in the fog.
🙄

So, where does that leave us? 😢

Roger Hall15 said:Are we actually chasing lies? 😲

.................................................. ........

We end up wasting all our mental energy just trying to manufacture a version of the truth that makes us feel comfortable.

😢

Roger Hall15, how are we even supposed to grasp an absolute, universal truth? If my "truth" clashes with yours, it could mean one of us is wrong, sure—but it could also mean we’re both right. What feels true or right for me might be totally different for you.

I might not have a logical answer for every single question, but I definitely have this internal compass—this gut feeling that tells me when something feels off, fake, or just plain wrong. It's hard to put into words, but it's that deep-seated certainty that something simply is or isn't the way it seems.

True, but that's just your intuition. And it only applies to you. How can that possibly apply to anyone else? In the exact same situation, my gut might be screaming "Go for it," while the person standing next to me feels a gut instinct saying "Don't do it." And honestly? Both of us could be right. 😉

Everyone has their own personal truth. But that’s not what we’re discussing here.

Then what exactly are we talking about?

(I'm interested in the topic, but I feel like I'm missing the core point, so a little clarification would go a long way. 😉 )

Enchantress said:Roger Hall15, but how can we ever actually grasp an absolute truth?

If my version of the truth clashes with yours, sure, maybe one of us is just plain wrong, but there's also the possibility that we're both right in our own way. What holds true or feels right for me isn't necessarily going to be the same thing for you.

What exactly are we getting at here?

(I'm interested in the topic, but I feel like I'm missing the core point, so a little more context would probably help me out. 😉 )

I didn't actually use the words absolute or universal.
😲
I left them out on purpose, really, just to leave some breathing room for interpretation—you know, where one person hears "my" truth while another hears "absolute" truth.
Or maybe just that "something" we're all trying to grasp at. 😉

Fair enough. 🙂 It could also mean that we're both completely off base.

Just think about it. 🙂
We're talking about ourselves. 🙂

Everything seems so black and white when you're a kid. You're taught there's a specific way to tell the truth, a list of things you should or shouldn't do, a clear line between good and bad.
Then you grow up and see... well, you see what you see... 😉

Roger Hall15 said:Everything feels so black and white when you’re a kid. You’re taught the rules: tell the truth, do this, don't do that. Right vs. wrong. It's simple.
But then life happens... and you see things for what they really are... 😉

You start noticing that not everyone plays by the rules, and honestly, sometimes you realize you shouldn't always be brutally honest either—it’s practically an unwritten social contract in America that a little white lie is better than a harsh reality. 😉 And that's how it starts. One small lie today, another tomorrow, then it's just a pattern, and eventually, you're even lying to yourself. One morning you wake up and realize you're so tangled up in your own fabrications that you can't even recognize your own truth anymore. That’s when the long process of untangling begins...

Enchantress said:It’s pretty obvious that not everyone is being honest, and honestly, you can't always afford to be either; there's this unspoken social contract where a little white lie is considered much more polite than some harsh, brutal truth. 😉 You tell one small lie today, another tomorrow, and before you know it, you're just weaving them together—first deceiving others, then eventually deceiving yourself... until one morning you wake up so tangled in your own fabrications that you can't even recognize your own inner truth anymore. That's when the whole process of untangling begins.

Exactly. 😢

And we’re also talking about that messy period of untangling where you find yourself back in the habit of deception simply because you've lost all sense of what's actually real.

The moment we start searching for answers, we just end up getting caught in the web all over again. 😲
It isn't even true that "spirituality" starts during that phase; it actually kicks in long before your memory even catches up, right at the moment you first realize there are multiple versions of the same story, and you start to suspect that maybe things aren't quite what those untouchable authorities told us—the ones we rely on for absolutely everything.

We tend to run headlong into certain "mysteries" much, much earlier than people realize. 😉

Roger Hall15 said:Exactly. 😢

We’re also talking about that process of untangling ourselves—where we find opportunities to drift back into old patterns because we honestly haven't a clue what we're doing.

The moment we start searching, we just end up more lost. 😲
And it isn't like some lofty "spirituality" kicks in later; it starts long before memory even functions. It begins the very first time you realize there might be multiple versions of the same story, making you wonder if those untouchable authorities we rely on for everything aren't actually telling us the whole truth.

We run headfirst into these "mysteries" much sooner than we think. 😉

True. I feel like we already know everything we need to know, but that knowledge is buried under so many layers of false teachings that it takes forever to dig back down to that core part of ourselves that just *knows*. 😉 What’s the worst part? While we're trying to find our own truth, we're forced to navigate a world built on someone else's version of reality, which just adds to the confusion and keeps us tangled up. I get most frustrated with myself when I ignore my own gut feeling just because I convince myself that others—the experts, the leaders, the ones I view as smarter or more enlightened—must be right. 😢

Roger Hall15 said:So, what now? 😢

And what exactly would you have me do? 😕

velvetpilot212 said:And what would you even do about it? 😕

What would I do—it’s just not possible. 😉

I don't think there's any cure for human blindness and deafness. Except maybe—you know—time.

Roger Hall15 said:If you ask me—it just can't be done. 😉

I don't think there’s any cure for human blindness and deafness. Aside from—well, maybe—time.

Come on, tell me then—what would you do? Why on earth do you think things would actually improve if we somehow cured this human blindness and deafness? And what exactly would be better about it?

Hmm. Well, then we’d basically have to take a massive step back to that point you mentioned—that stage where everyone supposedly knows what's going on and they're just making up excuses to cover it.
I wouldn't go so far as to say everyone knows. But, everyone *could* know. Or maybe everyone will find out eventually. Or, at the very least, most people will catch on.

I honestly think there's a pretty significant gap between being aware and actually "knowing," and that's not even something we can control through sheer willpower.

So, things probably won't get much better. Not by a long shot.

Alright, look. I’m genuinely curious why everyone is constantly obsessing over how things "could" be better. Isn't life actually turning out exactly the way we want it to? Take that thread about those abused kids, for instance. Everyone is absolutely screaming at that mother who let it happen. She’ll probably try to claim she couldn't have known or didn't have any other choice, but we won't let her off the hook. We aren't going to allow her to make excuses, because apparently, excuses don't exist anymore, right?
So, if that's the case, why do we even bother being lazy ourselves? Why do we justify our own failures by claiming we're too busy, or that we have too many responsibilities, or kids, or husbands, or just... whatever else is getting in the way?
The reality is, everything is exactly how we made it, and we're responsible for it.
If you look at it that way, it turns out there isn't really anything left to fight for. Nothing needs to change, because deep down, we're all perfectly fine with the status quo.

velvetpilot212 said:Alright, but I’m genuinely curious why everyone is constantly obsessing over how things could be improved. Isn't everything exactly the way we want it to be? Take that thread about those cases of child abuse—everyone is out there shouting at the mother who let it happen. She’ll inevitably claim she couldn't have known or didn't have a choice, but we won't give her an inch to explain herself. Because excuses aren't allowed, right? There's just no room for them.
So why would we ever allow ourselves any kind of laziness or try to justify things by saying we don't have enough time, or that we're overwhelmed by work, kids, spouses, or just a million other little things...
The truth is, things are exactly how we want them to be, and we own that.
If you look at it that way, it turns out there really isn't anything left to fight for. Nothing needs to change because we're all perfectly content with the status quo.

Aha! I see where you're coming from now. 😵
We were talking past each other. 😲

I’m not actually suggesting that things will get better. 😢

It just felt like the way you described the situation was a bit too laid back, and I didn't quite catch what you were actually getting at. You know—it's almost too easy for people to know the truth but simply refuse to acknowledge it.
And it's not just about whether they decide to put in the effort.
That would be way too simple.

I don't think things are the way we want them to be. Not if we even know what it is we want in the first place.

Everything is being overanalyzed when, in reality, it's pretty straightforward.
We are screwed. 😬

Roger Hall15 said:Aha! I get it now. 😵
We were clearly talking past each other. 😲

I’m not actually suggesting things are going to get better. 😢

It just felt like the way you described the situation was a bit too simplistic, and I didn't quite grasp what you were driving at. You know—it's too obvious for people to admit what they already know.
It isn't just about how much effort they might eventually decide to put in.
That would be far too easy, wouldn't it?

I don't think things work out the way we want them to. If we even truly know what it is we want in the first place.

Everything is overanalyzed, when in reality, it’s quite straightforward.
We are screwed. 😬

Oh, please... of course it's simple. That's exactly the point. You don't need to learn anything, discover anything, or fight for anything... you just have to stop being lazy and quit coddling yourself (which is what most people are most prone to doing), and then all the answers present themselves. Everything becomes clear; the truth reveals itself.
No rituals, no magic, no yoga, no alchemy... just stop indulging yourself.

I'm saying that on some level, everyone knows everything. There's no confusion—there's no "maybe it's this or maybe it's that." Let's say it's on a "subconscious level" (sometimes I feel foolish because I avoid using those terms on purpose, so nobody understands me 😵). Imagine a scenario where your boyfriend asks if you'll marry him. In that moment, you know—you can feel it—that your relationship isn't what a marriage should be. But you don't actually know what a marriage *should* be because all you see around you are the marriages of others, and you've been with this guy for ages, and you're pushing thirty, so what else are you supposed to do besides marry him? See? And you know—you feel it—that it isn't right... and then you spend years lying to yourself, getting angry inside, becoming more and more frustrated until you're just a pathetic shell of a person who can't even look in the mirror without feeling sick. But you stay with him because, well, you already have kids, you've built a house together, and...
In that one specific moment when you silenced the fact that marrying him wasn't actually your greatest life ambition, you missed your chance. You drifted away from yourself. And that's just one example. Once you start down that path, those moments—where you lie to yourself, or flatter yourself thinking you deserve more, or justify your own laziness—they just pile up day after day. By the second act, you're already dead.

And what did you actually achieve?

That's what I'm talking about.

velvetpilot212 said:Look, I think at some fundamental level, we all actually know what's going on, so there isn't really any confusion—it's not like anyone is sitting there wondering, "maybe it's this, maybe it's that." It’s more like it exists on a subconscious level, though I sometimes feel a bit silly because I purposely avoid using those kinds of heavy terms just so people don't look at me like I've lost my mind 😵.

But the real question is, are we all operating on that same frequency? Is anyone actually tuned in to that level?
And honestly, I'm convinced there is something out there... buried deep somewhere. But then you have to wonder if we even need to dig it up, or if it's just hanging out in the heavens😁 waiting to drop onto our heads—because if it's buried, how exactly are we supposed to unearth it, and if it's up in the sky,😁 why haven't we just sent a SpaceX rocket up there to grab it already?😬

Is this just a constant cycle of tinkering and obsessing over details, or is there still some actual, usable knowledge left in this world for us to find?

You made a great point there. I definitely see myself in that. 👍
I suppose I’d start looking for examples from before I hit thirty. 😉
A kid doesn't really distinguish between what's real and what's pure imagination. When does that start to change? When does a person start adjusting themselves to fit in? When does the lying begin? Where is that exact breaking point?
Is there some window of opportunity in a certain stage of life—which one, exactly?—that we're just completely missing?

Roger Hall15 said:"...that from this day forward, we only speak the truth."
(Zvonimir Balog)

Impossible? Absolutely impossible.

Prophets lie, so do the fortune tellers—whether they’re spiritual or just playing pretend, whether they're being funny or dead serious.

Does your soul ache when you tell a lie? What about your spirit? 😉

As if I'd feel anything. It's not her lying, it's me. 😁

Anyway... Zvonkec wasn't really thinking about his wording there. I think he meant to say "from now on, let's just be honest," which would actually be a pretty great idea. 😁
But "truth" is such a tricky concept... either nobody knows what it actually is, or there are a dozen different versions of it floating around, and then you're just left wandering aimlessly... 😁

Mr. Pes said:Truth is such an awkward concept because people either have no clue what it actually means, or they think there are multiple versions of it floating around, so you just end up spinning your wheels trying to find some footing... 😁

That’s exactly my point. You can't really get your bearings when you're stuck in that kind of ambiguity, even if everything being said happens to be true.
😬