Theosophy

Gregory Jackson said:"Notorious"? I don't know, man, we really shouldn't be judging other people's morality like that. I suppose that's a divine privilege.

That isn't a judgment, though. It's just a fact.

By making this post, you're essentially passing judgment yourself. You're picking a side.

casualtiger2 said:What exactly are you basing that on? Saying his "devotion was totally off" and he "wasn't exactly shining morally"—where's the proof?

Look, unlike many other theosophists, Leadbiter actually had genuine insight into the astral plane, which was widely recognized. However, that doesn't apply to Devahan, which operates on an entirely different level.
The astral plane is essentially a realm of images that sit behind reality. Devahan, on the other hand, is a realm of sound behind reality. Even if his description of Devahan isn't perfect, I suspect he would agree with that distinction. Honestly, Devahan can't really be described systematically; you can only approach it through certain outlines or principles.

To recap: Leadbiter was an Anglican priest who joined the Theosophical Society, got kicked out, then got let back in, eventually becoming a bishop for the so-called Free Catholic Church in Australia. He was also initiated into Freemasonry during that time.

He faced accusations regarding teaching boys assigned to him about masturbation. Without passing judgment ourselves, we should look at the consensus of his contemporaries. A significant number of Theosophical Society members, including Annie Besant, pushed for his expulsion. And he was expelled. We won't dwell on the specific accusation from one boy regarding his sexuality, but the fact remains: Besant, who basically ran the Society, eventually changed her mind and allowed him back in.
Aleister Crowley wrote in 'The Equinox' that he was a "senile sexual maniac."

Then there's Krishnamurti, which is a whole different story. As the son of a Theosophical Society member (convenient, right?), he was intended to be the vessel for some sort of Messiah, though nobody was quite sure which one. After a few years, he walked away and headed to Australia. Once Krishnamurti matured, he tried to reject the labels people forced upon him, but it was a losing battle. He practically had no choice. Fortunately, Krishnamurti himself was a decent person, even if his personality was crushed under a massive burden.

Since your avatar is the Ukrainian flag, it suggests that your emotions are driving your logic. That’s not necessarily a catastrophe at your level—that's how most people operate. But it becomes dangerous if those emotions push you toward action (like changing an avatar, for instance), because emotions are the easiest things to manipulate.

Basically, Devon’s whole experience centers on opening the Anat chakra—which ties directly into astral projection. Once you unlock Anat, you gain access to what some call siddhis, specifically astral projection and those internal vibrational sounds. In fact, Draganov’s mentor, Abba Aziz Makaj, built his entire philosophy and teachings on love around Devon’s specific experiences. Back when Leadbiter was talking about Devon, describing astral planes and these out-of-body experiences... man, it was mind-blowing. No one had ever heard anything like it. Looking back from where we are now, though? Those descriptions feel pretty dated—just romanticized Leadbiter nonsense based on books rather than any actual firsthand experience with what Devon or astral projection really entails. Nowadays, Leadbiter’s expertise has basically leveled down to giving foot massages for wellness 🙂

Drew Moore5 said:Look, unlike many other theosophists, Leadbiter actually had genuine insight into the astral plane, which was widely recognized. However, that doesn't apply to Devahan, which operates on an entirely different level.
The astral plane is essentially a realm of images that sit behind reality. Devahan, on the other hand, is a realm of sound behind reality. Even if his description of Devahan isn't perfect, I suspect he would agree with that distinction. Honestly, Devahan can't really be described systematically; you can only approach it through certain outlines or principles.

To recap: Leadbiter was an Anglican priest who joined the Theosophical Society, got kicked out, then got let back in, eventually becoming a bishop for the so-called Free Catholic Church in Australia. He was also initiated into Freemasonry during that time.

He faced accusations regarding teaching boys assigned to him about masturbation. Without passing judgment ourselves, we should look at the consensus of his contemporaries. A significant number of Theosophical Society members, including Annie Besant, pushed for his expulsion. And he was expelled. We won't dwell on the specific accusation from one boy regarding his sexuality, but the fact remains: Besant, who basically ran the Society, eventually changed her mind and allowed him back in.
Aleister Crowley wrote in 'The Equinox' that he was a "senile sexual maniac."

Then there's Krishnamurti, which is a whole different story. As the son of a Theosophical Society member (convenient, right?), he was intended to be the vessel for some sort of Messiah, though nobody was quite sure which one. After a few years, he walked away and headed to Australia. Once Krishnamurti matured, he tried to reject the labels people forced upon him, but it was a losing battle. He practically had no choice. Fortunately, Krishnamurti himself was a decent person, even if his personality was crushed under a massive burden.

Since your avatar is the Ukrainian flag, it suggests that your emotions are driving your logic. That’s not necessarily a catastrophe at your level—that's how most people operate. But it becomes dangerous if those emotions push you toward action (like changing an avatar, for instance), because emotions are the easiest things to manipulate.

Image and sound are inseparable—one is born from the understanding gained through the experience of Devahan, and Devahan carries its own specific description: a sun rising over the mountains accompanied by powerful thunder (from a clear sky)—that image belongs to that sound; the sound is inseparable from the image.

I once started a thread titled is the universe real or unreal—here are some of my insights derived directly from that experience, just passing them along for the sake of clarity;

Is the manifest universe real or unreal?
It is neither real nor unreal.
It can only be real or unreal from a limited perspective.
Take, as a parable, the sight of the sun over the mountains.>
Is it rising or setting?
It is either rising or setting only from the viewpoint of the observer.
In itself, the sun knows nothing of rising or setting.
The sun doesn't even know it is the sun (it simply IS).
Conceptualization begins and ends within the mind.
From the "viewpoint" of the Absolute, there are no sunrises or sunsets.
Nor is there any sun that rises or sets.
The story of rising and setting is merely a fabrication.
Just like the story of reality and unreality.
There is nothing that is real or unreal.
Everything simply *is* as it is, without the narrative attached.
From the standpoint of relative consciousness—the standpoint of the mind—it necessarily must be either rising or setting.
The mind "forces" you to adopt a viewpoint, so depending on where you look from, it is either rising or setting.
By its very nature, the mind lacks the capacity to grasp any idea that does not have its opposite.
For the mind, no absolute category exists; it reduces everything to its own level.
Meaning, it must be either real or unreal, either existing or non-existing.
The mind is the universe.
The mind consists of mental contents.
The mind cannot experience absolute reality directly; instead, it perceives it through concepts and ideas.
What we commonly refer to as reality (the manifest universe) is merely our interpretation—the interpretation of the mind.
Directly experienced reality knows nothing of concepts or minds.
From the "standpoint" of the Absolute, there is no compulsion to conceptually define one's viewpoint (and that is precisely the "freedom from" that spirituality actually strives for).
For the Absolute, there are no concepts.
There is no existence or non-existence.
There is no reality or unreality.
There is no absolute or relative.
There is no me and others.

There is nothing to choose, nor is there anyone to do the choosing.
There is no separation from the so-called supreme reality.
Nor is there anyone striving toward it.
Because there is nothing except the supreme reality.
Except we don't know that.

This game of enlightenment is merely a play of the mind.

Consequently, for the mind, there is no such thing as an absolute, and for the Absolute, there is no such thing as a mind.

What even was that? Lol, just a total stream of consciousness—no paragraphs, no periods, no commas... nothing. 😁

Just kidding... obviously... (now I’m definitely gonna end up in the trash, lol)...

So, does anyone here actually have some firsthand insight into astral planes or any real experience with astral projection? (Just looking for someone who can actually back up or debunk what’s being said)

... because most of these theories coming from "spiritual gurus" are basically just pulled out of thin air—and honestly, every single organization or society has its own specific cosmogony and set of theories that you simply don't have the bandwidth to study all at once. If you tried to soak it all in, your brain would end up feeling like a total mess of half-baked "knowledge"...

Every group looks pretty appealing on the surface, but once you start digging deeper—kind of like with religions—you just start finding a massive pile of holes and nonsense in the whole system..

lonestag15 said:So, does anyone here actually have some firsthand insight into astral planes or any real experience with astral projection? (Just looking for someone who can actually back up or debunk what’s being said)

... because most of these theories coming from "spiritual gurus" are basically just pulled out of thin air—and honestly, every single organization or society has its own specific cosmogony and set of theories that you simply don't have the bandwidth to study all at once. If you tried to soak it all in, your brain would end up feeling like a total mess of half-baked "knowledge"...

Every group looks pretty appealing on the surface, but once you start digging deeper—kind of like with religions—you just start finding a massive pile of holes and nonsense in the whole system..

I've had countless experiences with astral projection and various astral planes—but honestly, it’s just spiritual kindergarten... actually, more like nursery school.🙂

lonestag15 said:What even was that? Lol, just a total stream of consciousness—no paragraphs, no periods, no commas... nothing. 😁

Just kidding... obviously... (now I’m definitely gonna end up in the trash, lol)...

It’s pure concentrate 🤣

But it doesn't matter when everyone else is still stuck on outdated, romanticized Theosophical teachings—like attracts like, after all—clinging to those shallow New Age nonsense trends. That is, except for Motorist, our esteemed moderator, who actually grasps some fundamental principles (huge respect there, without being overly cynical—which is a rare, almost unique occurrence these days). And, heavens, Thor. It actually seems like they both operate on roughly the same level of understanding; it's just that Thor is "a bit" more radical while Motorist takes a more traditional approach. 🙂

Drew Moore5 said:Look, unlike many other theosophists, Leadbiter actually had genuine insight into the astral plane, which was widely recognized. However, that doesn't apply to Devahan, which operates on an entirely different level.
The astral plane is essentially a realm of images that sit behind reality. Devahan, on the other hand, is a realm of sound behind reality. Even if his description of Devahan isn't perfect, I suspect he would agree with that distinction. Honestly, Devahan can't really be described systematically; you can only approach it through certain outlines or principles.

To recap: Leadbiter was an Anglican priest who joined the Theosophical Society, got kicked out, then got let back in, eventually becoming a bishop for the so-called Free Catholic Church in Australia. He was also initiated into Freemasonry during that time.

He faced accusations regarding teaching boys assigned to him about masturbation. Without passing judgment ourselves, we should look at the consensus of his contemporaries. A significant number of Theosophical Society members, including Annie Besant, pushed for his expulsion. And he was expelled. We won't dwell on the specific accusation from one boy regarding his sexuality, but the fact remains: Besant, who basically ran the Society, eventually changed her mind and allowed him back in.
Aleister Crowley wrote in 'The Equinox' that he was a "senile sexual maniac."

Then there's Krishnamurti, which is a whole different story. As the son of a Theosophical Society member (convenient, right?), he was intended to be the vessel for some sort of Messiah, though nobody was quite sure which one. After a few years, he walked away and headed to Australia. Once Krishnamurti matured, he tried to reject the labels people forced upon him, but it was a losing battle. He practically had no choice. Fortunately, Krishnamurti himself was a decent person, even if his personality was crushed under a massive burden.

Since your avatar is the Ukrainian flag, it suggests that your emotions are driving your logic. That’s not necessarily a catastrophe at your level—that's how most people operate. But it becomes dangerous if those emotions push you toward action (like changing an avatar, for instance), because emotions are the easiest things to manipulate.

I’m talking more about para-masonry—groups that borrowed Masonic rituals and structures but weren't part of any legitimate, traditional organizations. They were just doing their own thing.

Honestly, most of them are barely serious. They feel more like low-level social clubs than anything deep. It doesn't seem fair to lump them in with those hallucinogenic, fraud-filled cult circles run by theosophists.😁

Paul Rogers94 said:I've had countless experiences with astral projection and various astral planes—but honestly, it’s just spiritual kindergarten... actually, more like nursery school.🙂

Whatever, it doesn't even matter... honestly, just having something to go on puts me at a neutral starting point—no real experience to speak of. I tend to trust people when they share their stories... I mean, why would they make all that up? And why would there be so many accounts if it wasn't actually happening... Is it basically the "kindergarten" phase of spirituality? Sure, absolutely... but it's still pretty interesting...

The only thing I’ve got going on that even touches on projection is this weird sensation... like my gut just flares up with this intense, overwhelming rush of love, and then I get this premonition—like some part of me is actually detaching through my core and just drifting away. It feels totally autonomous, too. I have zero memory of where that "other self" went or what it was even doing... if it was even doing anything at all...

Astral projection... honestly, nobody ever describes it accurately—not even when they’re talking about lucid dreaming...

lonestag15 said:Whatever, it doesn't even matter... honestly, just having something to go on puts me at a neutral starting point—no real experience to speak of. I tend to trust people when they share their stories... I mean, why would they make all that up? And why would there be so many accounts if it wasn't actually happening... Is it basically the "kindergarten" phase of spirituality? Sure, absolutely... but it's still pretty interesting...

The only thing I’ve got going on that even touches on projection is this weird sensation... like my gut just flares up with this intense, overwhelming rush of love, and then I get this premonition—like some part of me is actually detaching through my core and just drifting away. It feels totally autonomous, too. I have zero memory of where that "other self" went or what it was even doing... if it was even doing anything at all...

Astral projection... honestly, nobody ever describes it accurately—not even when they’re talking about lucid dreaming...

So, here’s my totally amateur-hour experience;

As part of my practice, I’d wake up in the middle of the night every single night, get my business done, and head right back to bed.
One night, I did the exact same thing—got up, finished my tasks, went back to bed—only to realize I’d forgotten to turn off the light.
I stood up and reached for the switch to kill the light, but for some incredibly bizarre reason, I just couldn't make it happen.
Then I turned around and saw myself lying there in bed.
In reality, I had performed the entire midnight ritual without ever actually waking up or getting out of bed.
Being a complete novice at the time, it was... a pretty fascinating experience.

Hopefully, this won't land me in the trash bin. 🙂

bluemason3 said:I’m talking more about para-masonry—groups that borrowed Masonic rituals and structures but weren't part of any legitimate, traditional organizations. They were just doing their own thing.

Honestly, most of them are barely serious. They feel more like low-level social clubs than anything deep. It doesn't seem fair to lump them in with those hallucinogenic, fraud-filled cult circles run by theosophists.😁

Sure, but he still wrote a book providing guidelines for Masons.
Masons are basically generalists; they have a massive reputation, but there isn't much to them. Besides, they're all just sitting around waiting for a Messiah.

Freemasonry traces its lineage from the builder of Hiram’s temple, through Faustian figures like Castor, all the way to Christian Rosenkreuz and his Rosicrucians, the Golden Dawn, and eventually the 33rd degree of the Scottish Rite—which, let's be honest, is just a nod to the 10 sephirot, the 22 paths, and the Deity. Since then, it’s undergone this brutal, progressive dilution until we're left with the hollowed-out shell we see today. Back during the height of the Golden Dawn, Freemasonry was actually a complete system; even those Theosophists and Steiner types were somehow tethered to branches of the Golden Dawn...

The history of Freemasonry summarized in two overly long sentences.

Paul Ross2 said:I have zero ambition to change the masses. I am talking about individuals. We live in an era defined by the shopping mall. People pilgrimage to temples of consumerism, and because they exist entirely outside the realm of the non-material, they aren't capable of grasping anything else. There used to be inventors, spiritual seekers, people genuinely interested in personal growth...
Nowadays, even when someone is an inventor or engages with spirituality, they view it primarily as a business venture that needs to be monetized immediately. I had a friend who actually starved to death because he poured every single cent into the materials needed to build his concepts and models. Today, everyone is just trying to launch some new startup and convinced themselves that this constitutes progress.

Look, I’m certainly no cheerleader for the whole startup culture, but I suppose they represent a slight step up from literal starvation.

Paul Rogers94 said:So, here’s my totally amateur-hour experience;

As part of my practice, I’d wake up in the middle of the night every single night, get my business done, and head right back to bed.
One night, I did the exact same thing—got up, finished my tasks, went back to bed—only to realize I’d forgotten to turn off the light.
I stood up and reached for the switch to kill the light, but for some incredibly bizarre reason, I just couldn't make it happen.
Then I turned around and saw myself lying there in bed.
In reality, I had performed the entire midnight ritual without ever actually waking up or getting out of bed.
Being a complete novice at the time, it was... a pretty fascinating experience.

Hopefully, this won't land me in the trash bin. 🙂

That’s funny, because my own introduction to lucid dreaming also revolved around a light switch. I was lying in bed reading 'Fairy and Elf' and suddenly realized I was dreaming because the text was saying things that simply didn't make sense. I wanted to study that specific passage a bit more closely, and since the room was dim, I decided to flip the light on... and given that I was lucid, I didn't see any reason to actually get out of bed; I just reached out, fiddled with the switch, and adjusted the lighting right there. I was so caught up in the sheer thrill of making it work—treating a standard toggle switch like it was some kind of dimmer—that I jolted awake before I could finish reading what I wanted. (It wasn't until later that I actually understood what lucid dreaming was and why text behaves so strangely within them).

BTW, if you have a moment, take a look at this thread, I'm really curious to hear your take.

Charles Wood73 said:That’s funny, because my own introduction to lucid dreaming also revolved around a light switch. I was lying in bed reading 'Fairy and Elf' and suddenly realized I was dreaming because the text was saying things that simply didn't make sense. I wanted to study that specific passage a bit more closely, and since the room was dim, I decided to flip the light on... and given that I was lucid, I didn't see any reason to actually get out of bed; I just reached out, fiddled with the switch, and adjusted the lighting right there. I was so caught up in the sheer thrill of making it work—treating a standard toggle switch like it was some kind of dimmer—that I jolted awake before I could finish reading what I wanted. (It wasn't until later that I actually understood what lucid dreaming was and why text behaves so strangely within them).

BTW, if you have a moment, take a look at this thread, I'm really curious to hear your take.

Are you kidding me? That thing is still up? It honestly feels like the mods on that sub are straight-up sleeping on the job.
I haven't even glanced at it since my last post went up.

darkraven said:Are you kidding me? That thing is still up? It honestly feels like the mods on that sub are straight-up sleeping on the job.
I haven't even glanced at it since my last post went up.

And besides, what would they even have to lock it for? 🤔

Charles Wood73 said:And besides, what would they even have to lock it for? 🤔

I originally posted this under Psychology, but the mod moved it over to Psychopathology—honestly, no clue why. My best guess is he thought it was tied to some kind of mental health issue. Just out of pure curiosity, I’m playing around with these ideas because I wanted a decent, deep conversation. But when you look at the gems we get from people like Descender or Ass—whose comments basically boil down to "you're crazy" or "you're making stuff up"—it’s just not a great vibe all around.

darkraven said:I originally posted this under Psychology, but the mod moved it over to Psychopathology—honestly, no clue why. My best guess is he thought it was tied to some kind of mental health issue. Just out of pure curiosity, I’m playing around with these ideas because I wanted a decent, deep conversation. But when you look at the gems we get from people like Descender or Ass—whose comments basically boil down to "you're crazy" or "you're making stuff up"—it’s just not a great vibe all around.

If I were in those shoes, I wouldn't take it quite so personally... people can be pretty unwell, you know how it goes. 😬

Any new developments since we last spoke?

Charles Wood73 said:If I were in those shoes, I wouldn't take it quite so personally... people can be pretty unwell, you know how it goes. 😬

Any new developments since we last spoke?

April was honestly a bit of a letdown. I've been digging through my OBE journal lately, and here’s the breakdown:

On April 1st, around 5:10 AM, I hit my 34th OBE, but the whole thing cut out the second I actually managed to "exit the body" and tried to stabilize the experience.

Then on April 2nd, around 6:34 AM, I gave it a shot, but the exit process felt sluggish and heavy—I just couldn't break free.

I drifted off again and then at about 8:02 AM, I had my 35th OBE. I actually managed to get out this time, but it ended just as abruptly as the one before.

On April 4th, I had another attempt. This counts as a success in the sense that I triggered what some folks here call the "astral body," but I just couldn't fully separate.

After falling back asleep, around 6:30 AM, I had my 36th OBE. This one was pretty wild because I didn't feel like I had a physical body at all; I was moving through space differently, just sort of floating... it was tough to control. I even tried flying by just heading straight through the window (I was on the second floor) and glided down the street for a bit, though the scenery looked a little different from how it looks in the real world.

April 5th, at both 5:27 and 6:35 AM, I had attempts... and yeah, I don't think I need to explain why those failed.

April 6th, at 7:13 AM, another attempt.

April 7th, at 6:39 AM, yet another try... couldn't get out.

April 10th at 2:09 AM, April 12th at 3:19 AM and 6:42 AM... nothing but attempts.

On April 13th at 11:31 PM, I had my 37th OBE, but as soon as I tried to steady myself, it was like my legs gave out and the whole experience vanished.

April 15th at 5:46 AM, my 38th OBE. I actually made it out and reached the desk in my 'room.' I was just starting to feel the texture of it under my hands when everything cut to black.

April 18th at 4:17 AM, another attempt... you guys know the drill.

On April 21st at 10:58 PM, I had my 39th OBE. This one was unique because I induced it while trying to fall asleep—basically without the usual pre-sleep phase. But once again, I only made it as far as the desk... the experience ended before I could even really see anything.

April 23rd at 5:07 AM—my 40th OBE. Once again, it died the moment I started trying to stabilize.

And that's pretty much it for the month. I think I need to take a breather from all this during May.

March was actually more interesting since I managed to do a bit of exploring in some of those sessions... but nothing major.