If it's just genetics + environment...

... so you're telling me we have zero influence over our own behavior, our thoughts, or our very personalities?

And what, we can only claim to have actually changed the world once we've raised our kids?

I’m honestly struggling to see any connection at all between sentence one and sentence two. 😕 😉

BTW, when you combine genetics with the right environment, you can create some pretty beautiful things... including the illusion of free will.

Anthony Reyes5 said:... so you're saying we have absolutely no control over our own actions, our thoughts, or who we become as people?

And does that mean the only way we can actually claim to have made the world a different place is by raising our children?

I honestly don't believe genetics hold that much sway over us, because at the end of the day, you're the one who builds your own character.

Most people are just products of their environment, whether they realize it or not.

I’ve got this nagging feeling that humans are fundamentally selfish—like, most of our brainpower is just dedicated to ourselves. A few examples:
1. the craving for clout—everyone wants to be famous and noticed.
2. eating disorders,
3. chasing social status,
4. getting obsessed with politics (especially the mess here in the US),
5. ...

Basically, everyone is stuck in their own head, acting on a distorted view of reality that shapes who they become (not as kids, sure, but definitely as adults).

If you look at it from a different angle, you'll see that people who actually become true experts in their fields usually did it because they weren't as self-absorbed as everyone else with the same talent or drive.

Yeah, I'm a regular philosopher.

Later.

And you see what happens when you combine good genes with the right environment... 😁

crimsonjackal8 said:I don't see any connection whatsoever between sentence one and sentence two.😕 😉

What I'm trying to get at is that we're all just products of circumstances beyond our control. Or are we?

Of course it is. 😎

vividmason652 said:most of our surroundings—that's us, or at least our conscious perception of it.

I honestly have this nagging feeling that people are inherently selfish—like, most of their thoughts are just centered entirely on themselves. Here are a few examples:
1. Who doesn't want to be popular? Everyone wants to be noticed and recognized by others.
2. Anorexia.
3. Social status.
4. Getting involved in politics (especially the political landscape here in the States).
5. ...

Basically, everyone is mostly thinking about themselves, and they shape their entire personality based on this distorted view of the world (maybe not as kids, but definitely later on).

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🙄 🙄 😕 😕

You're oversimplifying things way too much.

1. I personally don't care about being popular; I don't need everyone staring at me.
2. What on earth does anorexia have to do with this????!!!!!
If anything, people struggling with anorexia aren't selfish—if anything, they're the exact opposite, constantly "giving, giving, guilty..."
3. Why should the desire for a decent social standing and basic acceptance be labeled as selfishness?
4. Okay, I can actually agree with you on that one. 😁 😁

The second half of your point is interesting, and unfortunately, mostly spot on.

Anthony Reyes5 said:... so we have zero influence over our behavior, our views, our very identity?

And does that mean we can only claim to have changed the world once we've raised our children?

We don't actually "make" children. They arrive already formed; we have little say in the matter. If we merely birth and raise them, we leave the world exactly as we found it. The only way to shift the world is to become different ourselves. It's possible, whether one believes it or not.
The idea that we cannot influence ourselves is false. That is precisely our burden... to evolve. Opinions shift. Behaviors change. Personality shifts. Constantly.
Beyond that, one can become aware of this process—of the flux and instability of the so-called "self"—and consciously alter what feels necessary. Nothing remains static for even a moment. By observing one's own thoughts, this becomes clear. One can decide not to be a slave to every passing impulse, choosing instead to interrupt or redirect the flow of thought. We realize then that our "opinions" are often just habits, much like smoking. We repeat patterns established long ago. If one can quit smoking, one can "change the world."😉
There is a massive delusion in the mainstream mindset. The world is simply what we perceive it to be. If we choose to see it differently, it becomes different. That is the only truth left. 🙂

you're oversimplifying it too much

1. I don't care about being famous or having everyone notice me
2. what does anorexia even have to do with this????!!!!!
If people with anorexia aren't anything else, they certainly aren't selfish; if anything, they're just "giving, giving, guilty...."
3. why should wanting a normal social status and acceptance be seen as selfishness?
4. okay, we can actually agree on that one.

I feel the same way as you do in point 1, but honestly, I'm surprised every single time—your point 2 is directly tied to point 1.

The way society works today (whether it's the state or the whole world), it’s definitely distancing itself from the individual. People aren't individuals anymore; they're just tiny cogs in a massive machine chasing some higher goals. Take America, for example: look at how it's portrayed on TV versus the reality where plenty of people are struggling way more than people here. And it's not just about money; they're missing the basic things that make someone human. Nowadays, "making it" means getting a Master's or a PhD... which is fine if that's your life's purpose, but chasing those just for the status seems pretty selfish to me. Same goes for politicians stepping on others just to grab a title that won't even last them. People are forced to play roles they hate just to fit in and be accepted by society.

Later!

So, what actually happens to the people who refuse to play along with the roles they've been assigned?
Because there are definitely some folks out there who won't budge.

Look, I can actually sleep without nightmares now, feeling what people call actual happiness or just being satisfied with life.

Sure, there are still some folks getting crushed by the machine because they insist on swimming against the tide.

Later!

And then there are those who are just cogs in that machine, still claiming to be "happy"—whatever that’s supposed to mean.
I don't think that's really the point here. The real issue is whether we’re actually "determined" or truly "free." Does it even matter—assuming you aren't religious? As long as you maintain the illusion of free will, it shouldn't matter if you actually possess it or if you're just some incredibly complex machine. Anyhow, it depends on what level of freedom you're talking about—are we talking freedom from the mathematical structure of the universe, or freedom from our genetic and environmental conditioning? If you mean the former, then I'm convinced we're nothing more than "machines"; if you mean the latter, then I suppose you have the freedom to "change."

Tufir II said:By the way, when you mix genetics with the right environment, you can create some pretty beautiful things... including the illusion of free will.

🙂. a down-to-earth perspective