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To praise or to criticize?

Started by Brenda Turner · · 👁 5 views · 20 replies

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Participants Brenda TurnerWilliam White2Mark Lee65Carl Hernandez2Daniel Diaz6Jonathan Johnson67Joseph Miller85Douglas Adams5Gerald Rivera60
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#1 ·
Mom is pretty furious with Dad because he took his own life. Should I just let her feel that anger—or should I try to talk sense into her and explain that what he did wasn't "against her" or "against us," but was really about his own internal battle?

What would actually be better for her? How can we help her move through this crisis with less pain? Since I'm his son, I know I'm biased—I can't quite bring myself to be angry at him, nor can I be angry at Mom... especially if they were fighting between themselves... but then again, how can I stay objective enough to point a finger at a "culprit"?
William White2 William White2 Member
47 messages
joined Sep 2005
#2 ·
I went through a pretty similar situation myself, though my mother wasn't particularly angry with him, at least from what I could gather. He was sick, and that’s just a reality of life—something you have to accept and eventually move forward from.
Mark Lee65 Mark Lee65 Member
21 messages
joined Jan 2005
#3 ·
Seriously, how can anyone even find the energy to be mad?
Carl Hernandez2 Carl Hernandez2 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#4 ·
I’ve spent quite a bit of time debating whether I should even bother weighing in on this subject, but frankly, nothing I could muster felt intelligent or meaningful enough to warrant the effort. I can only say—and it feels deeply hypocritical even admitting this—that Dad did "that" to you, both of you, directly. I have absolutely no interest in getting dragged into any debates about it...
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#5 ·
Mark Lee65 said:I mean, how can anyone even be mad about this?

Well, they could. They were both ready to call it quits—just never at the exact same time. 😁

He was the quiet type, and she just couldn't stop talking—it was constant. Honestly, even the smallest thing would spark an argument, and sometimes things got pretty nasty between them. Who knows why they stayed together for so long?
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#6 ·
Carl Hernandez2 said:I wasn't sure if I should even weigh in on this topic—nothing I had to say felt smart or meaningful enough. All I can really say, even if it feels a bit hypocritical, is that Dad did "that" to all of you—to you and Mom. Honestly, I don't even want to get into an argument about it...

Have you actually looked into what depression really entails?

There’s a great brochure on depression over at http://www.mayoclinic.org/, and once you read through some of the personal stories on www.nami.org, you realize just how lucky we actually are.

Just a little quote to illustrate the point:

"If hell exists on earth, you will find it in the heart of a melancholy man!"

Robert Burton
Robert Burton Anatomy of Melancholy, 1621.
Daniel Diaz6 Daniel Diaz6 Member
22 messages
joined Sep 2005
#7 ·
I don't think just agreeing with her is the answer, nor is being overly coddling.
I get where she's coming from, totally, but if you just validate everything, you're basically fueling that fire of anger she has toward him—and that’s not healthy for her. On the flip side, if you start acting like he's always right, she might just shut you out completely. Try helping her work through those feelings instead. If you can see his side of things, help her see his too, so she can finally make peace with what happened. Right now, she's living in a total nightmare. Just talk to her... a lot. It might feel pretty discouraging at first, but it really does help.
Carl Hernandez2 Carl Hernandez2 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#8 ·
Brenda Turner said:Have you actually taken the time to read up on what depression truly entails?

And why on earth would I need to go scouring through textbooks just to understand what I'm already living through?!
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#9 ·
Carl Hernandez2 said:Why on earth would I need to read about her just to know what's going on?!

My bad—I didn't realize I was talking to such a massive genius here.

Yeah, clearly some people are just born with a PhD in neurotransmitters, right? 👋
Carl Hernandez2 Carl Hernandez2 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#10 ·
Brenda Turner said:My apologies; I wasn't aware I was addressing a mastermind among masterminds.

Apparently, one is simply born with an innate, PhD-level understanding of neurotransmitters. 👋

You completely missed the point of what I was trying to say!
Jonathan Johnson67 Jonathan Johnson67 Member
46 messages
joined Aug 2005
#11 ·
I don't even know how to put this...
First off, I am so incredibly sorry you’re going through this.
Usually, when people reach that point, it’s just an explosion of emotion because they feel backed into a corner... or they honestly think things will finally be peaceful on the other side. I really doubt your mom is actually angry at your dad. It sounds more like she's just grieving and completely lost, and right now, that's coming out sideways. She shouldn't be scolding him, but she definitely shouldn't be siding with him either. Moms tend to get overprotective, which is probably why she's taking her frustration out on him.

At the end of the day, all you can really do is try to talk to her.
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#12 ·
Carl Hernandez2 said:I think you missed my point entirely!

Well, apparently I did.
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#13 ·
Jonathan Johnson67 said:It’s crazy to say anything like that.
First off, I am so sorry you're going through this.
People usually reach a breaking point when they feel trapped—like there’s just no other way out—or they mistakenly think things will be better on the other side. Honestly? I don't think your mom is actually angry at your dad; she's probably just grieving and overwhelmed, and right now, she doesn't know how else to process it. She shouldn't be scolding you, either—that's not helping. Mothers tend to get super protective, so I bet that's why she's taking her frustration out on him.

The best thing you can do is just try to talk to her.

Things are even worse today—she's even more heated toward Dad. I actually ended up shouting at her because I refuse to listen to any more negativity about him (I mean, he's gone, isn't he?). When I'm with her, she only drops a few bitter comments here and there, but with everyone else, she won't stop lecturing them about everything she "endured" during their marriage. You'd think after 42 years together, there wasn't a single good moment left.

Whenever I try to say something kind about him, she acts like I never even knew him since I haven't lived with him for the last 16 years. It's just... unbelievable. For every one bad thing I remember, there were a hundred good ones. He was always there whenever we needed him—and Mom was too. How do two people manage to turn a lifelong marriage into such a living hell... and then refuse to let go?
Joseph Miller85 Joseph Miller85 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#14 ·
Let me start with the heavy stuff before I get into the random bits... my folks fought their way into a split and just stopped talking altogether. When my old man passed away, everything was kept super quiet—except for the fact that he was dead. I was just a kid, so I didn't really wrap my head around it. I just felt this massive weight of guilt because he was gone. And honestly, that’s not some psychological cliché, it’s just how it is. Maybe things would've been different if he’d stayed with us? I don't know... who knows. Guilt is a brutal thing, especially when someone's dead and there's no way to fix it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they needed "just a little more time" to talk to a parent or grandparent, but time ran out. There’s no fixing that. If you weren't good enough to someone, even if that person was your own father, all the years of catching up later won't balance those scales. Just accept it as a reality. You gotta deal with guilt fast, otherwise it serves zero purpose except making you suffer... or making everyone around you miserable too. My girlfriend has tried to take her own life a few times, and it's hard to admit, but she did that to herself, not to me. It's true, even if I can't say it out loud... Anyway, moving on to the unimportant stuff. This guy Carl Hernandez2 has been popping up lately—total Linux and car enthusiast, but privately he's just a low-level ignoramus who acts shocked every time someone tries to give him some friendly advice to stop talking nonsense. And Carl Hernandez2 is always like: "Do I seriously need to be an expert to talk about a topic?!"... Yes, honey, yes you do. Look, Carl Hernandez2, I'm no PhD, no Master's, and I didn't go to med school or study psychology. You don't need a course on relaxation techniques or any fancy training to think. You don't even need a high school diploma. None of that matters. All you need is common sense, a little daily reflection, and not too much booze, mindless music, or crappy TV shows. Listen to people who actually have experience and have lived through things. Man, you don't need a degree to listen and think; you just need something cheaper than paper—your own two-cent brain. Also, stay far away from WebMD or those junk health sites, because they post so many idiotic articles about psychiatry and stuff that the sheer consistency of stupidity is actually impressive.
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#15 ·
Joseph Miller85 said:Let me start with the heavy stuff before moving on to the trivialities—my parents split up and just went their separate ways. They stopped talking entirely, and when my dad passed away, everyone just stayed quiet about everything except the fact that he was gone. I was just a kid back then, so I didn't really grasp what was happening, but I definitely felt this crushing sense of guilt over his death. And look, that isn't some psychological cliché—it’s just the truth. Would things have been different if he had stayed with us? Honestly, I don't know. But guilt is a hell of a thing, especially when someone is dead and there's no way to go back and fix it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they just needed a little more time to talk to a parent or a grandparent, only to realize they ran out of time. There’s no fixing that. If you weren't good enough to the person—even if that person was your own father—all those years of trying to make up for it later won't balance the scales. You just have to accept it as a reality. You need to deal with that guilt as fast as possible; otherwise, it serves no purpose other than torturing yourself—or, in worse cases, making life miserable for everyone around you.

Guilt doesn't really weigh on me—honestly, if anything, it’s just this deep sadness about the fact that I won't be hanging out, grabbing drinks, or just working alongside my dad anymore. As for feeling guilty? I answered that question for myself a long time ago once I realized that life is just unpredictable—like, if he hadn't stopped to pick up a newspaper, maybe some stranger wouldn't have run into him later? What can you even do about stuff like that? Nothing. If I had done something differently, maybe my dad would still be here with us today... who knows? Or maybe he wouldn't have been around for years anyway. Who's to say?

Joseph Miller85 said:My girlfriend has tried to take her own life a few times now—and honestly, it’s so hard for me to admit that she did this to herself rather than to me. I mean, it's the truth, isn't it? But I just can't bring myself to say it out loud.

It’s not like she did it *to* you—though I get why it feels that way since you're definitely feeling the impact. But honestly? I bet she would have done the exact same thing even if you weren't around—so, does that really make it about you?

Joseph Miller85 said:You should probably steer clear of those wellness blogs—honestly, just give them a wide berth. They pump out so many mindless articles about psychiatry and mental health that the sheer level of stupidity is almost impressive, isn't it?

Like what, for instance?
Joseph Miller85 Joseph Miller85 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#16 ·
1. "Strattera is the first non-stimulant medication used to treat ADHD. How exactly it works isn't quite clear yet. It's suspected that the drug affects the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, thereby modifying brain activity." (Written by: David Sučić, MD, Source: Abstracts, American Psychiatric Association meeting). So Strattera is a drug, but nobody actually knows how it works... Incredible! Even Josef Mengele wouldn't have missed the mark that badly. What a brilliant medical explanation, major props to those doctors! I mean, who wouldn't just grab a handful of pills and swallow them all, feeling all bright and happy, after hearing such a wonderful explanation?! Who wouldn't just whip up some chocolate milk for their kid and mix in a massive dose of Strattera... Maybe someone at a baby food factory will read this and launch a whole new product line based on Strattera. Like, Strattera-ino. "Strattera-ino, kids love it, you know." "Strattera-ino, let your imagination grow." And it's super important that parents and teachers aren't the cause of ADHD. Really, really vital. The local news covered this with as much hype as if Knoxville had been liberated or a giant flag was being hoisted over Knoxville Castle again. Such huge news because it clears the guilt parents feel in so many situations, whether they're actually at fault or not. You can't cure ADHD; you just manage the symptoms, which basically means treating them blindly... If and when the symptoms fade, I guess that means health is improving...

2. "The guide highlights that medications have shown better efficacy than psychotherapy. Stimulants like methylphenidate (Ritalin) and amphetamines (not registered in America) are used."
Yeah, right. Why bother with talking, therapy, or any of that other crap when you've got drugs where the mechanics are a total mystery?

3. "Professor Eric Taylor from the American Psychiatric Association claims that even in its mildest form, ADHD affects 5% of children worldwide, but it is either overdiagnosed or underdiagnosed."
Man, it would be pretty great if things like gangrene were "overdiagnosed"! Then everyone would be walking around on crutches. Or take testicular cancer, breast cancer, liver cirrhosis, AIDS, typhus, hemorrhoids, leukemia, stomach ulcers, hepatitis, a double compound leg fracture, bladder infections, night blindness, obesity, diabetic coma, rheumatic fever, encephalitis, rabies, yeast infections, uterine tumors... or what if *those* diseases were underdiagnosed?

4. "Most children won't use these medications long-term. By early adolescence, almost half of those treated will no longer need therapy."
Then why even give them those damn meds in the first place if they won't even need them in a few years?! Seriously, who wants to wait years and deal with the chaos with a kid? I don't know if parents realize their kids won't just get kicked out of school, since public education is mandatory in the US and schools HAVE to teach them by law. Parents, don't let them play you! Leave the kids to the people who are actually paid and legally required to educate them...
(these four quotes are from the website www.pfizerhealth.com)
You can find similar nonsense commenting on other "mental health issues" they cover on Pfizer's pages... http://psychoblog.com
Carl Hernandez2 Carl Hernandez2 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#17 ·
Joseph Miller85 said:Now, moving on to something completely irrelevant. For a while now, we've had this guy popping up under the handle Carl Hernandez2—a supposed Linux enthusiast and car buff who, in reality, is just a low-level ignoramus. He’s the type who acts genuinely shocked every time someone tries to kindly suggest he stop blathering about things he clearly doesn't understand. And his response? "Do I really need to be an expert to talk about a topic?!" Yes, for heaven's sake, my little butterfly, my darling, my love. The answer is a resounding "yes." Look, Carl, I don't have a PhD, I don't have a Master's, and I haven't even touched medical school or psychology. You don't need a course in autogenic training or some psychological trickery just to think. You don't even need a high school diploma. None of that matters. All you need is common sense, a bit of daily reflection, and to stay away from too much booze, mindless music, trashy TV shows, and that sort of garbage. Listen to people who actually have experience and have lived through things. Honestly, you don't need a piece of paper to listen and reflect; you just need something far cheaper than a degree—your own two-cent brain. As for sites like WebMD, you should steer clear of them entirely; they publish such a staggering volume of idiotic articles on psychiatry and related nonsense that the sheer consistency of their stupidity is almost impressive.

My friend, you've spent more than half your post dwelling on what you claim is "irrelevant"...
Douglas Adams5 Douglas Adams5 Newcomer
1 message
joined Nov 2005
#18 ·
Brenda Turner said:I wonder if you’ve actually taken the time to consider what depression truly entails.

Just a small illustration, perhaps:

"If there is a hell on earth, it is found within the heart of a melancholy man!"

Robert Burton
Robert Burton Anatomy of Melancholy, 1621.

It's the truth, I suppose—that anger directed at someone who has taken their own life is actually quite a natural reaction. It’s just a phase in the grieving process; it happens even when we aren't dealing with suicide, but rather the sudden passing of a loved one. It’s transient, really, and necessary to move through the stages of mourning.

And most often, the primary driver behind suicide is rooted in exactly what is described in the anatomy of melancholy. Depression is, quite frankly, a living hell—a profoundly heavy illness (clinical depression)—and no one is to blame for it.
it simply happens—a tragedy occurs, something inside a person just breaks, and it ends in such a tragic fashion. And no one should be blamed for that, absolutely no one. I have always felt that in these kinds of tragedies, there is some larger reason that we can't grasp immediately... but I suspect it exists nonetheless.
Brenda Turner Brenda Turner MemberOP
23 messages
joined May 2003
#19 ·
Joseph Miller85 said:(these four quotes come from the website www.mayoclinic.org)
you could probably find similar nonsense regarding other "mental health issues" they cover on those pharma sites. http://psychologytoday.com

I actually went through the whole blog—but I can't recall anything specific about depression. If you happen to spot something that isn't accurate, would you mind posting it here? I'd really appreciate it...
Joseph Miller85 Joseph Miller85 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2005
#20 ·
Alright, a little something about depression... I’ve already mentioned I’m no doctor or anything, just someone who spends way too much time in the local library ($17 / years), surfing the web, and talking things through with my girlfriend. (Now that sounds like a line from Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, right?) She’s told me plenty of times that for her, depression doesn't have some external trigger—though that matters too—it's internal. But hey, even she isn't 100% sure. And man, how many times have I heard someone being called "depri" or whatever they call it these days? Millions. Or two. And honestly, I could tell them every single time that people don't *need* to be "depri," but they feel it as a real problem. No matter what it actually is. And the medical establishment? They aren't doing anything to stop all this chatter about "depri." If anything, they’re cranking it out! They pump out all these brochures on recognizing depression, complete with those little "Do you have depression?" quizzes, all wrapped up in stories about "real people" suffering. These folks accept they have a "disease" because psychiatrists tell them so. And since they're doctors—they're supposed to treat sick people for illnesses. So, they treat depression. It’s that simple. You’re feeling down, you hit up your GP, they write a referral to a psychiatrist who, bursting with expertise, deals with you in like, fifteen minutes. Then the "real person" continues: "It wasn't easy, I didn't get better overnight, don't get me wrong!" And there it is—the perfect excuse for antidepressants, and man, they have them coming out of their ears. You can basically pick your color preference at this point. Oh, and we can't forget therapy! That’s "healing," apparently. Then you have more stories from "real people" who are, poor souls, afraid to live. And they need help so they won't be afraid! But wait, "real people" think they can help themselves! Can you imagine? On their own! What about those of us who spent ten years sweating over textbooks? Do we just smell bad? No, we don't! Luckily, "real people" have "real friends" who say: "Hey, you're acting weird. You're definitely depressed, go see a shrink." The most important thing is realizing it's a "real disease" and nothing to joke about! Just pop a pill, then talk about your family, your childhood, whether your dad was creepy, if your mom breastfed you too long, if your brother used to crawl into your crib, or if your uncle showed you his "toolbox" with all those different tools... and presto, you're healthy! And some nice doctor or specialist will help you. For a long, long time. Even longer than you think you need. But hey, they know best, right? There are even these polished magazines promoting mental health filled with lovely little tests: "Am I sad most of the time? (yes/no)," "Do I lose interest in things I used to love? (yes/no)," "Is it hard to get out of bed? (yes/no)," "Do I lack a partner? (yes/no)," "Is my waistline too big? (yes/no)," "Does life feel meaningless? (yes/no)," "Do I think about death a lot? (yes/no)..." If you check a few boxes, hurry! Before things get messy! We won't even say *that* word—suicide. We don't say it! If it crosses your mind, go straight to the doctor! Otherwise, they might lock you up indefinitely. Look, depression isn't just some trivial thing. It’s about the brain, and that's a big deal. But there’s hope! We're here, the doctors! The guys in white coats. The cause? Brain changes. A messed-up family. Death in a messed-up family. Something unknown. So what does "cured" mean? Nothing. Who says anyone is cured? The psychiatrist. And what does he know? About depression. That it's a disease when someone is depressed and that there are changes in the brain. In a pamphlet titled 'Recognizing and Treating Depression and Anxiety Disorders' (published by a major US medical publisher back in the early 2000s), they even mention the economic component because it costs society so much. And that's not pretty. Depression is problem number one. Not pretty at all. I won't ramble too much about that pamphlet, I'll just quote its summary of the depression pattern: "In conclusion, we can say that it is most likely, just like in other diseases, a combined effect of numerous biopsychosocial factors which ultimately result in illness." (from a popular health site) Wow, incredibly convincing, right? They convinced me, did they convince you? And now, the lie that "medications can solve or at least alleviate the main problem." Meds act on the brain. But where is the root of depression? In the brain or outside of it? "The difficulties in perceiving depression as a brain disease arise from a misunderstanding of brain functions, the least understood of all organs. When we mention the brain, we first think of intelligence, logic, comprehension, learning, memory, spatial awareness, but it's less known that the brain is also the organ of emotions and moods, the most important factors for an individual's quality of life." (from a health website) Again, so convincing! Everyone repeats it: depression is a disease just like any other. Like high blood pressure or diabetes. After reading all that, I'd be pretty unprofessional if I said otherwise. The numbers are relentless, the percentages are huge, everyone is at risk, young and old. The economy, the family... Diagnosis is a hilarious concept in psychiatry because the same person might have one diagnosis with one psychiatrist and a completely different one with another. I know this will annoy some people, but it's just my opinion, formed while living with and talking to my girlfriend, who's been in the psychiatric "system" for almost twenty years. We both enjoy the fruits of what is called science—psychiatry...

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