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Ukraine VII

Started by Kate Gonzalez11 · · 👁 4 views · 18 replies

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Participants Kate Gonzalez11driftingtinkergoldenowl73rustydrifter10Charles Fox10Jerry Rogers6slybison8William Bennett53
Kate Gonzalez11 Kate Gonzalez11 MemberOP
17 messages
joined Nov 2023
#1 ·
I’m requesting that the supermoderators take a look at posts
1937 and 1053. I'd like some clarification on why the original author hasn't faced any sanctions, given that the posts were simply deleted rather than penalized.
Thank you.
driftingtinker driftingtinker Regular
372 messages
joined Jan 2019
#2 ·
I don't want to start a whole new thread here, so I'm just gonna drop a comment regarding the mod—who, by the way, has already racked up a pretty decent pile of complaints from other users right in this specific topic.

The mod himself says in his opening post:

Ladies and gentlemen, you aren't gonna believe this, but this thread is about Ukraine, not about Mexico, the US, Germany, or the Baltic states and whatever else.

Stick strictly to the topic. We've been somewhat tolerant up until now, but let's not push it anymore.

Forget about throwing around terms like fascism, Nazism, Chetniks, and all that nonsense without any rhyme or reason.

Mocking the fallen or calling for war crimes will result in sanctions.

We won't be giving you any more warnings about labeling people or accusing each other of being trolls.

Thanks for listening. Go ahead and carry on.


Those are the rules, and here is today's masterpiece from our most beloved moderator:


goldenowl73 said:They look great. If only Strelkov, an old war buddy who learned the ropes with his Chetnik pals back in Canada 1992 and is now sharing his "extensive" combat experience by playing Ratko Mladić and trying to build a new Republika Srpska out of Donetsk, showed up, the picture would be complete. Maybe driftingtinker has some old military caps lying around for Mr. Strelkov 🤷 or they could sure sing something from Kusturica’s orchestra, which is apparently huge over there.


goldenowl73 said:The US Army in Afghanistan was training Afghans. I have a few buddies who served over there, and I can personally guarantee they didn't commit any crimes. ISAF, which includes our guys, operates under a UN mandate cited in Security Council resolutions 1386, 1413, 1444, 1510, 1563, 1623, 1707, 1776, 1833... and they were invited by the legitimate Afghan Government.

I honestly find it hard to believe you're actually trying to blame the US Army for crimes in Afghanistan just to justify these Chetnik types posing with guns in Donbas and claiming they're already in the thick of it.😲😲

Thanks for your attention.
goldenowl73 goldenowl73 Active Member
206 messages
joined Dec 2005
#3 ·
driftingtinker;50701925 said:I really don't want to start a whole new thread here, but I feel like I need to call out a certain moderator—you know the one, the guy who’s already racked up a pretty hefty pile of complaints from everyone else in this specific discussion.

So, if you look at what the mod himself laid out in the opening post:

Those were the official guidelines, but check out today's little masterpiece from our favorite moderator:

Thanks for listening.

Look, did those paramilitary units show up in Ukraine? Yeah, they did. Did the separatist commander fight in Canada 1992? You bet he did. That has everything to do with what's happening in Ukraine right now. Are we just going to pretend those aren't cold, hard facts? Because if we do, then I guess some people on this forum are going to jump to the ridiculous conclusion that the US Army commits crimes in Afghanistan. But hey, if that's the kind of logic you're comfortable with, be my guest.
driftingtinker driftingtinker Regular
372 messages
joined Jan 2019
#4 ·
Hey, mod, could you maybe drop a link to the specific post or quote where I supposedly said this comparison was okay? Because if not, I’m gonna have to call this out as some pretty blatant, disrespectful baiting that definitely deserves a ban.
If it’s not too much trouble, I’d love to see some actual evidence regarding these "Mexican militias," unless by that you just mean those three clowns over there. Honestly, I still don't see what any of this has to do with the topic at hand.

Also, I'm still waiting on the moderation team to weigh in or say something about a biased moderator.
rustydrifter10 rustydrifter10 Regular
693 messages
joined Apr 2011
#5 ·
Henry Rodriguez45 said:I’d really appreciate it if the supermods could take a look at posts
1937 and 1053. I'm just trying to understand how the author of those posts hasn't been sanctioned yet—it seems like they were just deleted without any actual consequences for the user.
Thanks.

Well, if the posts were actually deleted, they wouldn't even have those numbers anymore, and something else would be sitting in their place. Can you provide a link to the specific page where these deleted posts are supposedly located?
goldenowl73 goldenowl73 Active Member
206 messages
joined Dec 2005
#6 ·
driftingtinker said:Hey, I’m asking the moderator nicely—could you point me to the specific post or quote where it says my comparison was okay? Because if not, I’m gonna have to call this out as a total bad-faith move designed to get me flagged, which honestly deserves a warning card.
If it's not too much trouble, I'd love to see some actual evidence regarding these "Mexican paramilitary units," unless by that you mean those three clowns over there, though I still don't see how any of that even relates to what we're talking about here.

Also, I’m still waiting on the moderation team to weigh in or say something about this biased moderator situation.

Wait, who even said you were claiming that in the first place? You haven't actually asserted anything like that; you're just trying to drag this whole debate down into the gutter of the PZK forums.

The latest field report is right here in plain English that all of us can actually understand, instead of that Russian stuff that keeps getting linked everywhere, and it shows that the assessment isn't just coming from some random clowns, but is legit. 🤷
driftingtinker driftingtinker Regular
372 messages
joined Jan 2019
#7 ·
goldenowl73 said:I mean, who even said you were claiming that? You weren't talking about eating onions or smelling them... you're just dragging this whole debate over to the PZK forums.

Exactly. I’m actively avoiding any comparisons to Ex-Yugoslavia, so I have no clue why you think it's okay for me to support whatever you're talking about—just because I won't debate Mexicans on a thread about Ukraine?

The reason we're over at PZK is that every single time someone mentions Mexicans, you start dancing around the rules I laid out at the very beginning of this thread... and you're handing out red cards like crazy, even when you're probably just imagining things.

the latest field report, in a language we actually understand instead of all this Russian stuff being linked constantly, shows their take on the situation—some clown here, some other guy there... 🤷


All I see is one lone clown, nothing resembling organized units. It’s like how we saw Svedan on the Ukrainian side with his sniper fetish, or yesterday seeing an Austrian on the separatist side—I didn't hear anyone talking about Swedish or Austrian units, but sure, let's act like the Mexicans are everywhere.

But they aren't the issue here; it's the bias from the moderators who clearly aren't following the rules, so yeah, I'm asking for a review.
goldenowl73 goldenowl73 Active Member
206 messages
joined Dec 2005
#8 ·
Man, if I have to draw these parallels again... this whole warning is basically about how you keep trying to drag in those historical comparisons between Mexicans and Americans, stretching it out for three pages until we hit the Stone Age just to derail the thread. You can post your latest "boots on the ground" update where you try to paint me as some radical extremist while you act like a hero, but honestly, nobody’s going to stop you from rambling about those Austrian volunteers you're so obsessed with—which, by the way, I've never even heard of. This isn't making a comparison; these are literal photos of a sniper from the Donetsk-based Mexican forces in the Donbas.

And hey, look, even a moderator is allowed to have an opinion, right?
driftingtinker driftingtinker Regular
372 messages
joined Jan 2019
#9 ·
goldenowl73 said:If I have to start drawing parallels, we’ll end up dragging this through historical comparisons between Mexicans and Americans, then spiraling through three pages of nonsense all the way back to the 7th century, which would just derail the whole thread.

Why so worked up? Look, if you're really going to try and draw those lines, I’d actually love to see the specific part where you claim I’m supporting anything. I'm genuinely curious about that logic.

Fresh news from the frontlines here—where this guy is some kind of clown to you and a total extremist to me—is basically whatever you want it to be. It seems like nobody can stop you from bringing up those Austrian volunteers I've never even heard of. This isn't about drawing parallels; these are actual photos of snipers in the Donbas.

Notice how I wrote "Svedan" or "Austrian" in the singular? Just like how you twisted the units into "photos of snipers." Honestly, feel free to just throw on some traditional folk gear and head down to Donetsk; I bet you'd get a starring role in their news reports and probably half this forum's attention too. You can try to relativize this or turn it into some internal debate if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious what's actually happening here.

Yeah, even a moderator can have an opinion.


Sure, as long as it stays within the rules and you don't go handing out bans to anyone with a different view at the first (even if imaginary) opportunity.
Charles Fox10 Charles Fox10 Regular
352 messages
joined Mar 2009
#10 ·
Henry Rodriguez45 said:I’d appreciate it if the senior mods could take a look at posts
1937 and 1053. I'm curious how the author wasn't sanctioned, given that the posts were deleted.
Thanks.

I see one but not the other. Don't worry, if it was missed, the head mods will handle it. Personally, I tend to avoid retroactive moderation calls—I leave those to the higher-ups.

Not to clog things up, but there's been a flood of off-topic posts here today despite the moderation. If you spot anything else needing attention, please just use the report button.
Kate Gonzalez11 Kate Gonzalez11 MemberOP
17 messages
joined Nov 2023
#11 ·
rustydrifter10 said:If posts were deleted, they wouldn't have a number, and other content would just take their place. Is there a link to a page where the deleted posts can still be found?

I don't have a direct link to a specific page, but I do have screenshots. Would those be acceptable instead?
rustydrifter10 rustydrifter10 Regular
693 messages
joined Apr 2011
#12 ·
Henry Rodriguez45 said:I don't really have the direct link to the page, but I do have some screenshots. Is that still okay?

Honestly, having the actual links is way more helpful for me, so next time try saving those instead of just taking screenshots. 🙂 Even if a post gets deleted and you can't see it anymore, the link might still point me right to it. Or, at the very least, just make a note of which page it was on. It’s a massive pain to try and hunt down a specific post using nothing but a screenshot, though you could always jot down who wrote it, when it was posted, and a key snippet of the content itself.
Jerry Rogers6 Jerry Rogers6 Active Member
223 messages
joined Feb 2014
#13 ·
It’s honestly staggering how far this goes—and how openly the haters of Mother Russia are starting to use these tactics
goldenowl73, what you're doing here isn't just shameless bias anymore; this is straight-up, malicious, bottom-of-the-barrel manipulation
And then people wonder why, for years now, if you want to find anyone on political threads worth actually debating, you have to hunt through a magnifying glass—because everything is choked out by mindless, scripted spam that makes it impossible to break through
To make matters worse, whether we’re talking about the NATO/Russia conflict or our own internal dealings with bad actors, you’ll always run into massive amounts of this single-minded, brain-numbing spam because apparently, we are the center of the universe, right?

Basically, the moment those extremists showed up in Crimea, you went on a crusade regarding this topic—a topic you refuse to let go of even though the guidelines, for us mere mortals, are clearly laid out
Meanwhile, I still remember those "eyewitness" posts you used to drop about the grim, dull-witted Russians you supposedly encountered while you were staying in the underground during your time there
That was just brilliant

And here is a fresh one—just another example of how there truly is no limit to your disgusting manipulations

goldenowl73 said:The Secretary of Defense says the operation continues until Ukraine is fully liberated http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...on-354856.html

And I also found an interesting tweet from Boris Filatov, who is obviously involved in the liberation operation, stating that he spoke today with Americans who fought alongside Ante Gotovina, and they advised him not to stop but to push forward https://twitter.com/euromaidan/statu...966400/photo/1

So now you're dragging Gotovina into the narrative, just so any casual reader can finally understand exactly what kind of extremist mob the poor Ukrainians are dealing with

In conclusion, I think the Morning Post and Buzin are total amateurs when it comes to tracking this crisis, and personally, I think you should have been kicked off this platform ages ago because, more than once, you've shown that you are a disgrace to this administration
goldenowl73 goldenowl73 Active Member
206 messages
joined Dec 2005
#14 ·
Emily Patel64 said:It’s honestly wild seeing how far this goes and how the haters who basically worship Russia are starting to show their faces more openly.
goldenowl73, what you’re doing here isn't even just shameless bias anymore; it’s straight-up, malicious, bottom-of-the-barrel manipulation.
And then people wonder why, when it comes to politics, you have to hunt through a magnifying glass for anyone on these boards you can actually have a decent debate with, because everything is just choked out by mindless, repetitive spam that makes it impossible to get a word in edgewise.
To make matters worse, whether we're talking about the NATO/Russia conflict or our own deep dives into dealing with bad actors, you're always going to run into massive amounts of this one-sided, brain-numbing garbage just because, hey, we’re clearly the center of the universe, right?

Basically, ever since those aggressors showed up in Crimea, you’ve been on this relentless crusade regarding this topic, even though the guidelines—for us mere mortals—have been crystal clear from the start.
In the meantime, I still remember those "eyewitness" posts about the gloomy, vacant looks on Russians' faces that you used to post so regularly during your time over there.
That was just brilliant.

And here’s a fresh one, just another example of how there’s truly no limit to your disgusting manipulations.

Now you're even dragging Ante Gotovina into the mix just so every casual reader can finally see exactly what kind of aggressive thugs the poor Ukrainians are dealing with.

Honestly, I think the Morning News and the Buzin unit are total amateurs at tracking this crisis, and personally, I think you should have been kicked off the moderation team ages ago because, time and again, you've shown you're a complete embarrassment to this administration.

And what exactly is manipulative about it? There's a direct link to the statement. The gentleman who posted it is the Deputy Governor of the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast.

And what is this constant talk about the Buzin unit? Are you implying that the US Embassy is busy posting on an online forum? First off, who exactly are you casting suspicion on? "USA freedom"... I have to admit, that's a pretty sophisticated approach.😁 Or maybe you mean Michael Collins?😍 So please, show me some actual evidence that this famous Buzin unit exists or tell me about these "paid mercenaries" you keep rambling about.

Even the Scotchman noticed who was being louder on the topic. "Don't be like that. Look, the fact that those advocating for the Russian option are loud, flooding the boards with hundreds of posts and appearing dominant because they act unified (they aren't, but that's how it looks from the outside) is something none of us can change. What are we supposed to do? Have Reddit guarantee a contingent of supporters for the Ukrainian side to create balance? Should we build a bot program to flood the boards with technical random posts for the Ukrainian side?"

Has anyone ever even mentioned a combat unit from Canada?

The way you constantly drag this discussion toward the County Executive is really getting out of hand.

Personal impressions are allowed too—whether it's mine from Moscow or yours from Yakutsk if you ever decide to head over there, where you can report back to us on how picking wildflowers in January works if you even manage to spot any.

And it bothers you when there's a Twitter link to a statement, yet it didn't bother you when a supporter's post was deleted—the one accusing the American Army of crimes in Afghanistan and equating these aggressive volunteers in the Donbas with our guys in Afghanistan.

Best,
Jerry Rogers6 Jerry Rogers6 Active Member
223 messages
joined Feb 2014
#15 ·
By leaning on old arguments about border conflicts and those other massive, overly dramatic analogies, they’ve started priming their readers—specifically the Gipper crowd, the Clonville set, and the rest of that crew (if the Scotchman wants me to list the whole gang, I can do it easily, though I suspect he knows them just as well as you do)—to ensure that these five aggressors they keep pushing since the Crimea situation kicked off are just a continuation of the trolling that’s been carefully stoked for ages.
It fits perfectly with how Ante Gotovina is being used now, just to make it crystal clear—for anyone who hasn't caught on yet—exactly what kind of aggressive mob the poor Ukrainians have been dealing with for months.
Claiming there's a connection between that and the much more complex reality on the ground in Ukraine is something only someone on some heavy drugs would suggest.

I could easily spin a narrative where, say, some newcomer or Biden’s little helpers and their logistics fail, and then the aggressors win out. I could plant Clonville types to repeat the same two or three mantras like it's their only purpose in life, just so the "interested" readers get a "quality" look at what happens when self-righteous democrats suddenly decide to swoop in and save a country from some supposed Red menace, only to lobotomize, devastate, and leave it completely hollowed out in the process.
Can I go on?

I mention your own impressions because they fit right into this grand, ceremonial program of demonizing Russia that we’ve been witnessing for months.

PS. It’s good that the Scotchman noticed who was being louder on the topic back then; kudos to him. My only gripe is that he failed to notice the periods when you couldn't even catch your breath because of all the pro-American spammers.
Kate Gonzalez11 Kate Gonzalez11 MemberOP
17 messages
joined Nov 2023
#16 ·
rustydrifter10 said:I find links much more helpful, so next time please save the actual URLs instead of just taking screenshots. 🙂 Even if a post gets deleted and you can't see it anymore, the link should still lead me right to it. At the very least, try to remember which page it was on. Hunting down a specific post via a screenshot is pretty awkward; it’s much easier if you just note the author, the timestamp, and a key snippet from the content.

Here we go:

Kansas

Post #1
Time: 7/4/2014. 12:28 PM
From the perspective of Ukraine, the EU, and the USA, Crimea belongs to Ukraine, and it's currently occupied by Russian terrorists who need to be eliminated.

Post #2
Time: 7/4/2014. 12:47 PM
I personally think that's being far too generous. We shouldn't allow them to retreat; they should be surrounded and neutralized completely. You don't negotiate with terrorists.

Both posts have been reported through the standard channel (using the triangle icon).
rustydrifter10 rustydrifter10 Regular
693 messages
joined Apr 2011
#17 ·
I could see the first post being taken as just an interpretation of the Ukrainian stance, but that second one? That was an undeniable call for violence, so I went ahead and nuked it with a 500-point penalty. Thanks so much for flagging that!
slybison8 slybison8 Active Member
162 messages
joined Oct 2011
#18 ·
I have to admit that I am feeling a bit confused by the recent turn of events regarding this topic. Ever since the start of the crisis in Ukraine, we have consistently maintained—both through official moderator guidelines and in our private capacity as participants—that parallels should not be drawn to the wars in the former Yugoslavia. I think I have explained on several occasions why such comparisons might lead people toward incorrect conclusions.

So, on one hand, I understand Emily Patel64's confusion, but on the other hand, in defense of goldenowl73, I feel I should mention that he isn't the only one drawing these kinds of comparisons, nor are his specific analogies particularly decisive for the overall quality of the conversation. It hasn't even been twenty-four hours—or perhaps it has, I suppose it's hard to tell—since a user named Igor made some rather bizarre connection suggesting that US military units involved in peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan were somehow part of a global criminal enterprise, linking that mission to the Ukrainian offensive in Donbas in a very strange way.

Emily Patel64 certainly wasn't expected to know about this, as we deleted those posts following the initial shock and sanctioned Igor according to the rules. But now she does know, and my point in coming forward is that I believe we all share some responsibility for how poorly informative this thread on Ukraine has become, which is unusual for a site like Reddit. I guess the reason is that, much like in a few other threads, the world has divided among themselves into "bloodthirsty" camps that haven't really communicated or debated with one another from the start, and lately, they've stopped altogether.

The actual discussion has been replaced by people just dropping links accompanied by short one-liners that don't actually explain anything; they just seem to serve to check a box. The thread is essentially being spammed with links to questionable information from both sides of the argument. Critical thinking has almost entirely vanished, and I honestly think that, collectively, we are all doing a very poor job with this Ukraine thread, and I am not exempt from that responsibility myself.

A Scotchman mentioned earlier in this debate that the moderators alone cannot guarantee the quality of the discussion. We can try to improve things slightly, or perhaps make them worse at times 😁, but not fundamentally. Most of the heavy lifting falls to you, the users. And what you all are doing—though I want to specifically exclude Emily Patel64 from that group, as she is one of the very few who has stubbornly tried to engage quality discussions since day one—is simply not working. You seem divided and primarily interested in pushing propaganda for your own side, without any real interest in hearing opposing views or debating different perspectives.

It feels, I guess, as if everyone here acts as though they hold Ukrainian passports or own property in that currently very unfortunate part of the world.

I would appeal to everyone to take a step back and return to what we actually do well: discussing and informing one another through the clashing of arguments in a way that is both high-quality and objective.

slybison8
William Bennett53 William Bennett53 Regular
491 messages
joined Sep 2016
#19 ·
Well, it is quite refreshing when things unfold this way. 🙏
The administrator responded to the initial report that kicked this thread off, correcting the oversight, and now slybison8 has provided a rather elegant conclusion—one that doubles as an appeal for everyone to try and elevate the quality of our discourse. Consequently, it seems like the perfect moment to put this dispute to rest and return our focus to the actual discussion at hand.

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