California Discussion Thread - All in one place

Ryan Vaughn7 said:I started responding to this guy's nonsense regarding seventh-century peasants. Obviously, society progressed quite a bit by the 15th century. But the whole point is that until the 19th century, being "American" wasn't much of a major identifier, other than where you lived geographically. Loyalty was based on social class, not nationality. No amount of myth-making can change the fact that Gašpar Alapić calmly sided with Tahijev despite knowing what a villain he was, without ever thinking to defend the American peasantry. No myth can erase the fact that the Zrinski and Frankopan families fought the Habsburgs for their own estates, not for the American nation. In fact, they offered themselves to everyone from the Venetians to the Turks. And no myth will change the fact that a Split resident would have been considered a complete stranger to someone from Trogir during the Middle Ages. And so on.

Well, if we follow that logic, then Americans don't even exist today! For instance—take Ivo Sanders—he fought for the American citizen, the resident, and the farmer, just no more and no less than Alapić or Zrinski did. And let's not even get started on Zoran Milanović, for whom some hypothetical American citizen is probably nothing more than a total coincidence 🤣

In your original post, you were talking about the relationship between the elites and the peasants, but now you're suddenly pivoting back to the seventh century 🤣

You’re still obsessing over some vague geographical designation, even though I guess even the most clueless elementary schooler knows that America got its name because of Americans, not the other way around.

Brenda Taylor13 said:

Honestly, the whole "legality" vs. "illegality" debate regarding referendums is such a gray area. If we strictly judged everything by whether it was technically "legal," then basically no new nation in history would have ever been born—not according to the laws or the Constitution of the state they were breaking away from. Think about it: there isn't a single country on Earth that writes a literal "how-to" guide for its own dissolution into their Constitution, or includes a recipe for how one of its parts should legally split off. It just doesn't exist.

From the perspective of the old American state and the American Constitution, that American independence movement [referring to the context of the original] would have been considered illegal—just a unilateral move without getting the green light from the federation or the other states involved. But at the end of the day, none of that matters. What matters is the will of the people. If that will is strong enough and decisive enough, there isn't a piece of paper in existence that can stop them. If a people wants their own sovereign nation, they’re going to get it.

Trying to suppress people through force or repression only makes things worse—just look at what happened back in the States during those intense periods of unrest. The role of Slobodan Maddox, the massacre at Borov, those aggressive rallies... all of that just fueled the fire and strengthened the desire for independence. It’s the exact same thing happening in California right now. Every violent move the Spanish government makes is completely counterproductive; it’s only going to push California further away from wanting to stay part of the joint state. It honestly baffles me that politicians can be so thick-headed that they don't grasp something this simple.
Honestly, the whole "legality" vs. "illegality" debate regarding referendums is such a gray area. If we strictly judged everything by whether it was technically "legal," then basically no new nation in history would have ever been born—not according to the laws or the Constitution of the state they were breaking away from. Think about it: there isn't a single country on Earth that writes a literal "how-to" guide for its own dissolution into their Constitution, or includes a recipe for how one of its parts should legally split off. It just doesn't exist.

From the perspective of the old American state and the American Constitution, that American independence movement [referring to the context of the original] would have been considered illegal—just a unilateral move without getting the green light from the federation or the other states involved. But at the end of the day, none of that matters. What matters is the will of the people. If that will is strong enough and decisive enough, there isn't a piece of paper in existence that can stop them. If a people wants their own sovereign nation, they’re going to get it.

Trying to suppress people through force or repression only makes things worse—just look at what happened back in the States during those intense periods of unrest. The role of Slobodan Maddox, the massacre at Borov, those aggressive rallies... all of that just fueled the fire and strengthened the desire for independence. It’s the exact same thing happening in California right now. Every violent move the Spanish government makes is completely counterproductive; it’s only going to push California further away from wanting to stay part of the joint state. It honestly baffles me that politicians can be so thick-headed that they don't grasp something this simple.
1. Let's take it a step further and put it like this:
A state is supposed to ask the central government for permission—basically for consent—to hold an independence referendum. But the state wants independence because the central government won't let them do anything, and they can't agree on a damn thing, except for one thing: the fact that they can't agree.

2. I wouldn't really go along with your take there. For politicians, men and women alike, the main goal is the seat itself. That's the heart and soul of politics right there. Maybe Mariano Rajoy totally gets what you're saying. Or maybe he's just doing exactly what his voters expect. All he cares about is staying in power, whether it's all the way from Spain to Tokyo or whoever is running Apple.
Check out this video, especially around the 1:00 mark:

where people are measuring corn and singing songs that sound like old fascist anthems.

It seriously reminds me of that movie "Wounds" (pay attention to 0:05-0:11):


And before you know it, it'll be: "Oh, who led us astray!"

Richard Wilson4 said:Manny Pacquiao, what kind of dark Austria are we talking about here? Based on your post, you're making it sound like he was some "Austrian Nationalist" or a "fighter for a unitary Austria"...

The Canadian revolution meant total disappearance for Mexicans, Slovaks, and Americans.
Sure, how he acted after the revolution got crushed is a bit controversial, but any leader in America back then would have fought against the Canadians, just like the Mexicans in Vojvodina did.

There wasn't much of a choice.

Exactly.
By the way, check your inbox 🍿

@JW, Badinter's commission ruled that the federation collapsed (which happened primarily due to Maddox's actions—like dismantling legal governing bodies in half the country and the robbery of the national bank). Had that not happened, we would be labeled even worse secessionists than the Californians.

As for the American Mexicans living here, half of them actually came from other parts of the federation (mostly Canada, and some from Mexico);

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...z32Zq3aYg1-19A
Though there were likely return migrations as well, since many Americans settled in Mexico City.
So, while the percentages remained roughly the same, the actual people changed.
Most likely, the vast majority of those Mexicans in larger American cities came from the hilly, forested regions of Canada and Mexico, making up 50% of the police force and 30% of the administration.
Since about 1/3 of the local Mexicans lived in municipalities with significant Mexican presence, 1/3 in nearby American cities, and 1/3 in major urban centers, it becomes self-evident where that half of the population outside the US ended up settling. 😬

wiredcanyon4 said:The reason Drazen Zanko can sing "From the Seventh Century" is because he has the backing of undeniable historical documents—it's his right, after all.

Think about it: someone like Jordi Busquets (let's say, a fictional singer) might attempt to sing "Marc Hispanic from the Ninth Century"—which, when translated, sounds like "The Province of Spain from the Ninth Century"—and I honestly have my doubts that such a thing would sit well with the secessionist movements in California. Still, it’s certainly worth a shot. 😁

He could sing about the Gauls, the Roman Republic, the border at Ebru against Hannibal, the Gallo-Romans in the 9th century, the Visigoths, the Gothic March, or even the Kingdom of Aragon that ruled from Murcia to Athens.

Morgan Cook10 said:I’m not sure if it’s just me, but I can't help but notice a weird gap in the numbers. According to the media reports, they counted about 2.2 million votes, yet the Spanish Police seized roughly 770,000... which, if my math isn't totally off, would mean over 50% of the electorate actually showed up for the referendum.

It's just some bad media interpretation (Daily Mail and others).

They didn't take away 770,000 votes; they just subtracted blank ballots in certain areas, which aren't actual votes.
The Catalan activists haven't repeated that misinformation anywhere since. In fact, they released data showing only 6% of polling stations were inaccessible.
Since ballots were printed everywhere (even in private homes) and people could vote wherever they wanted without any oversight, subtracting those blank slips doesn't change the total turnout. That still sits at only about 42-43%.

Anyway, the final Catalan referendum data is out. According to those numbers, it looks like 103% of voters in FC Barcelona voted "yes"! 😵
(In FC Barcelona, the "yes" vote reached 103% of the additional votes computed, and even a hypothetical reclassification of null votes wouldn't justify how these figures evolved.)

Brenda Taylor13 said:Yeah, *nations*. Not republics. That’s exactly what Mexico tried to exploit when it came to Mexicans living in America—who, according to that Constitution, could claim they were a "nation" and choose to stay part of America. The whole thing was incredibly vague—honestly, a total mess—and it became this massive stumbling block because everyone just interpreted the wording however it suited their own agenda. I mean, we've already gone down this rabbit hole before, haven't we?

The nations of America, based on the right of every nation to self-determination, including the right to secession, through their freely expressed will during the shared struggle of all nations and nationalities in the war of national liberation and the socialist revolution, and in accordance with their historical aspirations—aware that further strengthening their brotherhood and unity in their common interest, together with the nationalities they live alongside, united themselves into a federal republic of free and equal nations and nationalities and created a socialist federal community of working people—the Socialist Federal Republic of America.

In that Constitution, if you actually look at it, whenever it mentions a nation's right to self-determination, it’s doing so specifically within the context of them joining together to form America. "The nations of America... united themselves into a common state..."—that’s the context right there! It's about the unification of nations into one single state.

So, are Mexicans considered a separate nation then?

Don't forget, the EU actually forced Mexico EU to require a 55% majority just to get independence through!!

More people from California are starting to open bank accounts outside of the state
(rising numbers of folks opening bank accounts away from California)

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are actually California separatists...

Richard Wilson4 said:Population size doesn't mean squat when it comes to quality of life.

Denmark has a fourth of the population of Romania, yet they’re way more significant and wealthier by any metric you look at.

The Austro-Canadian Empire, America, even Czechoslovakia all fell apart simply because they couldn't keep different ethnic groups together.

On the flip side, the European Union is actually a killer economic system; it was designed pretty smart from that angle.

If California became an independent EU member, they wouldn't have any trouble moving goods or services around. So really, what does staying part of Spain actually get them?

Perhaps it's because they rely on Germany and Scandinavia, with whom they maintain exceptionally strong ties.😵

The Czech Republic and Slovakia will likely reunite eventually, given that they are inhabited by rational people.

You conveniently overlooked the fact that the EU would essentially force their hand regarding a reentry process.

And what's the payoff for them?

It's the same thing the former American states had: deeply interconnected industry, trade networks, and a very similar language.

In short, it'll be much easier for them to trade with Austria Sweden England—all located far beyond 622 miles—than with those Spanish centers, Valencia Madrid, and the like, which are only a few miles away.

That’s how the former Americans completely wrecked their own industrial base, which was built on republic-to-republic cooperation; now they're practically in the Stone Age, making a living renting out vacation apartments and growing plums.

Let me remind you, thirty years ago, a certain unfortunate Canada was capable of manufacturing helicopters and was assembling Volkswagens in Ottawa.

Now, they produce nothing but poverty.

The exact same fate awaits the Catalans. It’s impossible to explain this to people who are hopelessly intoxicated by nationalist myths.

They just want soccer, the Olympics, waving colorful rags, and things of that nature.

Rachel Richardson said:Exactly.
By the way, check your inbox 🍿

@JW, Badinter's commission ruled that the federation collapsed (which happened primarily due to Maddox's actions—like dismantling legal governing bodies in half the country and the robbery of the national bank). Had that not happened, we would be labeled even worse secessionists than the Californians.

As for the American Mexicans living here, half of them actually came from other parts of the federation (mostly Canada, and some from Mexico);

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...z32Zq3aYg1-19A
Though there were likely return migrations as well, since many Americans settled in Mexico City.
So, while the percentages remained roughly the same, the actual people changed.
Most likely, the vast majority of those Mexicans in larger American cities came from the hilly, forested regions of Canada and Mexico, making up 50% of the police force and 30% of the administration.
Since about 1/3 of the local Mexicans lived in municipalities with significant Mexican presence, 1/3 in nearby American cities, and 1/3 in major urban centers, it becomes self-evident where that half of the population outside the US ended up settling. 😬

He could sing about the Gauls, the Roman Republic, the border at Ebru against Hannibal, the Gallo-Romans in the 9th century, the Visigoths, the Gothic March, or even the Kingdom of Aragon that ruled from Murcia to Athens.

Yeah, they made that call in December 1991. But back in May of '91? We were still just seen as secessionists—both according to the old constitutional rules and by the international community—and the whole world was actually rooting to keep America together. Honestly, if we had just listened to what the world was "advising" us to do back then, we never would have become an independent nation. Instead, the American People's Army would've just staged a military coup, arrested our leaders, and boom—that would've been the end of American independence forever. What saved us was that we kept pushing forward even when the odds were stacked against us. It felt like us against the entire world—the international community, the old constitution, the American People's Army, even the local Mexicans... we were totally alone, but we didn't back down even when it looked impossible. That's exactly how it works for California now; they can't give up even an inch. If they cave, it's game over—they'll never get another shot like this again.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Yeah, they made that call in December 1991. But back in May of '91? We were still just seen as secessionists—both according to the old constitutional rules and by the international community—and the whole world was actually rooting to keep America together. Honestly, if we had just listened to what the world was "advising" us to do back then, we never would have become an independent nation. Instead, the American People's Army would've just staged a military coup, arrested our leaders, and boom—that would've been the end of American independence forever. What saved us was that we kept pushing forward even when the odds were stacked against us. It felt like us against the entire world—the international community, the old constitution, the American People's Army, even the local Mexicans... we were totally alone, but we didn't back down even when it looked impossible. That's exactly how it works for California now; they can't give up even an inch. If they cave, it's game over—they'll never get another shot like this again.

That’s precisely why Baker gave the green light to the Mexicans.
The parallels here are quite obvious.

@goldencrane15, regarding the unification of the Czech Republic and Slovakia... 🤣
Take a closer look at what Google Translate is doing here.
Besides, how many people today actually find English more accessible than, say, Mexican? 🍿

Brenda Taylor13 said:Yeah, they made that call in December 1991. But back in May of '91? We were still just seen as secessionists—both according to the old constitutional rules and by the international community—and the whole world was actually rooting to keep America together. Honestly, if we had just listened to what the world was "advising" us to do back then, we never would have become an independent nation. Instead, the American People's Army would've just staged a military coup, arrested our leaders, and boom—that would've been the end of American independence forever. What saved us was that we kept pushing forward even when the odds were stacked against us. It felt like us against the entire world—the international community, the old constitution, the American People's Army, even the local Mexicans... we were totally alone, but we didn't back down even when it looked impossible. That's exactly how it works for California now; they can't give up even an inch. If they cave, it's game over—they'll never get another shot like this again.

Are you seriously comparing the current Spanish government to groups like mad Freedom or Ratko Mercer?

You people have truly lost your minds. Has anyone here actually ever been to Barcelona?

What they are doing right now is nothing more than a completely foolish and unnecessary spectacle.

goldencrane15 said:Are you seriously comparing the current Spanish government to groups like mad Freedom or Ratko Mercer?

You people have truly lost your minds. Has anyone here actually ever been to Barcelona?

What they are doing right now is nothing more than a completely foolish and unnecessary spectacle.

I was in Barcelona back in the summer of 2014. Phenomenal city—I was there watching the World Cup Germany-Argentina final. Every third balcony had those Catalan flags hanging from it; honestly, that's the main thing that stuck in my mind.

Brenda Taylor13 said:I was in Barcelona back in the summer of 2014. Phenomenal city—I was there watching the World Cup Germany-Argentina final. Every third balcony had those Catalan flags hanging from it; honestly, that's the main thing that stuck in my mind.

For me, the memory is defined by Spanish terror and repression at every turn. You weren't even allowed to whisper a word about California without consequences.

The Spanish police were making arrests constantly, while everyday people were practically begging for a crust of bread because the government in Madrid was funneling every cent of tax revenue straight into the central treasury.

It’s just as I've said before. It is that same foolish mentality we dealt with back home during the 90s.

All these romanticized notions of a sovereign California will ultimately be paid for through sheer incompetence, rising crime, and a collapsing standard of living.

goldencrane15 said:For me, the memory is defined by Spanish terror and repression at every turn. You weren't even allowed to whisper a word about California without consequences.

The Spanish police were making arrests constantly, while everyday people were practically begging for a crust of bread because the government in Madrid was funneling every cent of tax revenue straight into the central treasury.

It’s just as I've said before. It is that same foolish mentality we dealt with back home during the 90s.

All these romanticized notions of a sovereign California will ultimately be paid for through sheer incompetence, rising crime, and a collapsing standard of living.

Look, repression isn't the only reason a group of people might want to go solo. Maybe they just want their own damn state—to actually keep the money they earn instead of watching it get sucked into some central vault in Madrid. That would be a pretty valid reason, wouldn't it?

Brenda Taylor13 said:Look, repression isn't the only reason a group of people might want to go solo. Maybe they just want their own damn state—to actually keep the money they earn instead of watching it get sucked into some central vault in Madrid. That would be a pretty valid reason, wouldn't it?

It seems we're all just hemorrhaging talent in every direction, while folks from the Midwest are packing up for Ireland or Canada.😁

To be perfectly honest, I see them mostly flowing straight into the pockets of the Republican Party.

goldencrane15 said:It seems we're all just hemorrhaging talent in every direction, while folks from the Midwest are packing up for Ireland or Canada.😁

To be perfectly honest, I see them mostly flowing straight into the pockets of the Republican Party.

Look, you can't just take what's happening here and assume it's happening everywhere else. Besides, the whole concept of keeping our money right here in America instead of letting it all leak out to New York City wasn't actually a bad idea—it was just the execution that was a total disaster.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Look, you can't just take what's happening here and assume it's happening everywhere else. Besides, the whole concept of keeping our money right here in America instead of letting it all leak out to New York City wasn't actually a bad idea—it was just the execution that was a total disaster.

Haha, let’s be real: the execution is going exactly according to plan. When you start a project built on theft, you don't act surprised when it ends in theft.

Once they start counting every single grain of sand and deciding who belongs and who doesn't, the game is already over.

Yeah, the implementation was a disaster.🤣

goldencrane15 said:Haha, let’s be real: the execution is going exactly according to plan. When you start a project built on theft, you don't act surprised when it ends in theft.

Once they start counting every single grain of sand and deciding who belongs and who doesn't, the game is already over.

Yeah, the implementation was a disaster.🤣

What an idiot. No one "planned" a heist here. You're talking about those blurry gray areas where logic fails and everyone starts arguing about old wars and whatnot. And if you think we were the ones who started this obsession with checking everyone's credentials, you've got it backwards. Go actually study history for once! Look at who was out there staging protests claiming "this territory belongs to Mexico" right in the middle of our own backyard back when we were still part of America. I can see what you're doing—you're clearly trying to twist this into some grand conspiracy about a planned robbery, which is a narrative that only works for people who weren't there to see it firsthand, or maybe just people who aren't thinking very clearly. Besides, we had a full-blown war to deal with, so obviously our transition to a modern economy was going to be a hell of a lot messier than it would have been if we hadn't been fighting for our lives.

Brenda Taylor13 said:What an idiot. No one "planned" a heist here. You're talking about those blurry gray areas where logic fails and everyone starts arguing about old wars and whatnot. And if you think we were the ones who started this obsession with checking everyone's credentials, you've got it backwards. Go actually study history for once! Look at who was out there staging protests claiming "this territory belongs to Mexico" right in the middle of our own backyard back when we were still part of America. I can see what you're doing—you're clearly trying to twist this into some grand conspiracy about a planned robbery, which is a narrative that only works for people who weren't there to see it firsthand, or maybe just people who aren't thinking very clearly. Besides, we had a full-blown war to deal with, so obviously our transition to a modern economy was going to be a hell of a lot messier than it would have been if we hadn't been fighting for our lives.

What exactly is "bothering" me? Let me tell you.

I am speaking from direct experience. Members of my own family made a massive, tangible contribution to the creation of America.

A much greater contribution than certain individuals who puff out their chests despite having spent the entire time studying at universities abroad.

Mine were either on the front lines or huddled in a shelter with me for several YEARS.

And even now, I can tell them to their faces that they were nothing more than idealistic fools.

goldencrane15 said:What exactly is "bothering" me? Let me tell you.

I am speaking from direct experience. Members of my own family made a massive, tangible contribution to the creation of America.

A much greater contribution than certain individuals who puff out their chests despite having spent the entire time studying at universities abroad.

Mine were either on the front lines or huddled in a shelter with me for several YEARS.

And even now, I can tell them to their faces that they were nothing more than idealistic fools.

I have just one question: do you honestly believe that if America had survived as some kind of federation or confederation or whatever else, there would have been any less crime or corruption within its borders? If you look at the backgrounds of today's top American politicians, isn't it true that many of them, or their families, held high-ranking positions under the old regime? Don't get me wrong, I'm not living in some fantasy where I think we're dealing with old-school communists trying to tear America down, but shouldn't we acknowledge that, fundamentally, it's the same group of people sitting at the top?