Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Morgan Williams said:Look, I’m not saying they haven't done plenty of dirty work, but compared to the crews in the Middle East? They aren't even in the same league. My god, even here in the States, we were having massive debates over social issues and traditional values just a couple of years ago—and we're part of this Western movement. Of course, change doesn't happen overnight, but you have to start somewhere. Even Catholic Ireland has moved toward same-sex marriage via referendum; Western nations are slowly "growing up," and frankly, I think these Muslim-majority countries are falling way behind us.

Exactly 100 years ago, Europe was going through the "Belle Époque," which was this era where war seemed almost unthinkable and the continent felt like a peaceful cultural haven. What happened after that is something you probably see all the time on National Geographic documentaries.

Jessica Gonzalez said:Exactly 100 years ago, Europe was going through the "Belle Époque," which was this era where war seemed almost unthinkable and the continent felt like a peaceful cultural haven. What happened after that is something you probably see all the time on National Geographic documentaries.

If we're talking exactly one hundred years ago, that would be 1915, but WWI actually kicked off in 1914.
This whole post is pointless, just like this entire debate. And claiming that war in Europe was once "unthinkable" is a piece of sci-fi more naive than Interstellar; we haven't even seen a single generation pass without some kind of absolute bullshit happening somewhere.

Jessica Gonzalez said:Exactly 100 years ago, Europe was going through the "Belle Époque," which was this era where war seemed almost unthinkable and the continent felt like a peaceful cultural haven. What happened after that is something you probably see all the time on National Geographic documentaries.

So you're implying we aren't all that different from those folks in the Middle East?
I’ll admit, we’ve still got a long way to go to meet my standards, and things could turn volatile fast. But honestly, I find it hard to argue there's a massive gap between modern Germany, Spain, and Syria.

Morgan Williams said:So you're implying we aren't all that different from those folks in the Middle East?
I’ll admit, we’ve still got a long way to go to meet my standards, and things could turn volatile fast. But honestly, I find it hard to argue there's a massive gap between modern Germany, Spain, and Syria.

I suppose it all just depends on how you look at it. In Spain, one of the top military generals is saying they won't let Catalonia break away. Just three years ago, things in Ukraine seemed fine, and now there's a war. Even Syria wasn't seeing combat until just a few years back, and the same goes for the North America before the 90s...

Jessica Gonzalez said:I guess I find all this sudden support for France a little bit unsettling. Did YouTube change its colors to match the Pakistani flag when bombs were falling there? Did they paint the opera houses in Sydney in the colors of Iraq whenever dozens of people were dying in Baghdad? I suppose people are people, but it feels like the world doesn't view everyone with the same level of empathy. Innocent people in Paris have suffered a tragedy that nobody deserves, but I worry these things happen because certain lives seem more valued than others. It all feels quite absurd—so much so that Wikipedia has entire pages listing incidents in Iraq, almost like it’s a list of Arsenal match results or a rundown of Big Brother winners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror...n_Iraq_in_2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror...n_Iraq_in_2014

Looking back after a few years, maybe I'm starting to see things more clearly. It seems like what happened in America hundreds of years ago, or across Africa over the last few centuries, is being repeated in the Middle East. It feels like a pattern of Western interventionism... It's sad that innocent people end up losing their lives at concerts because of someone else's mistakes.

Jessica Gonzalez said:So, look at it this way—those African nations end up paying tribute to local warlords, while those same elites probably have a GDP per capita around $40,000. They live easy lives, going to concerts and ballgames, and then act totally surprised when people in the "provinces" start revolting. It seems like there's this massive disconnect with people in the West; I suppose their biggest concerns are whether the local Starbucks has free Wi-Fi or the exact carbon footprint of a McDonald's burger. Meanwhile, on the other side of the world, people aren't even sure if they'll make it through the night.

I don't think anyone was particularly losing sleep back when the Siege of Ottawa was happening, either...

Nobody ever told you that you couldn't feel sorrow or grief for all those tragedies. What you’re doing now—claiming that showing sympathy for people in France makes someone a hypocrite—that’s where you lose me. I’m honestly at a loss for words. It’s the same pattern we saw after the Charlie Hebdo shooting, where people immediately start hunting for excuses. "Innocent people die at concerts because of some stupidity." Seriously? What kind of "stupidity" are we talking about here? The people who opened fire were simply reacting to an immense injustice being forced upon them. Where are the suicide bombers from Ecuador? Or India? There are so many countries that have been dealt massive injustices, both in the past and still today. How can these "provinces" just sit there and ignore it? So, what you're actually saying is that his rage is understandable. You might not personally kill people that way, but you think his actions can be understood or even justified by some bad white guy?

What really strikes me is how everyone just refuses to look at the root cause. There’s this total avoidance of responsibility when it comes to analyzing the religious ideologies driving these suicide bombers. It's frustrating. These people aren't subtle about it; they state exactly what they think of us and lay out their intentions quite clearly—what they want to do and what they would achieve if they actually had the chance. I can't help but feel that the current situation is being handled differently because France is playing a much more cautious game with its trade quotas and international relations. 🙏.

Such shocking indifference? Seriously, what exactly is the "correct" way to act according to you? Should we just sit around weeping daily over every tragedy on the planet? It sounds lovely in theory. We’re all human, we’re all connected. But what does that actually look like in practice? How exactly would this supposed apathy be any less jarring?

Jessica Gonzalez said:The U.S. and Europe moved past those old eras, which is why powers like Great Britain eventually dominated much of the globe (alongside France, Spain, and others exporting peace and democracy). And I suppose we shouldn't forget how German Christians, who were leading industrial and cultural forces for ages, took that sense of superiority one step too far and caused tens of millions of deaths in just a few years. That's about it for revolutions and progress.

The Germans can hold their own against other European nations when it comes to culture, philosophy, and industry. But again, I have to ask. If white people are inherently so evil, why don't people from other religions or different countries just target their colonizers and drop bombs on them?

And you can't have it both ways. If the West had a moral obligation to prevent things like the atrocities in the North America or Uganda, they should have first helped the people living under the thumb of psychopaths like Saddam or Gaddafi. Do we have a moral obligation to help North Koreans who are literally starving to death while a bloated sociopath rules over them?

Of course, Americans and Europeans aren't fighting wars solely for humanitarian reasons. Their own interests are always the priority. But if you're going to claim they had an obligation to intervene in one place, they had an obligation to intervene in another.

Matthew Anderson4 said:Muslims have discipline. That’s the thing. They're ready to go all out. Not too long ago, even the Japanese were built like that. And that Japanese discipline? It's legendary. Honestly, they used to be way more intense than these modern radicals. These people still carry that warrior spirit—it’s just been a few centuries and a couple of revolutions since then, as they say.

I think it's less about discipline and more about the sheer desperation at the core of everything. Over the last century, the West has been tearing the Middle East apart, whether through direct military force or intelligence games. On top of that, you have incredibly violent and inhumane policies being pushed against Palestine. When people feel like there's no other way to change their reality—and they truly don't see one—they become willing to sacrifice everything...

And before we start blaming Islam itself for every explosion, let's remember why certain domestic terrorists were arrested—like those who planted bombs in the New York subway system just to cause chaos because they felt powerless to fix the political situation back home. This recent group operating over in France is really just a mix of those types of radicalized individuals...

I also fully agree with what Jessica Gonzalez said: France occupied Algeria for 132 years, and during the war for independence, between 500,000 and 1.8 million Algerians lost their lives, mostly civilians. We know all about the foreign interference in the Middle East and who's pulling the strings behind these wars. In places like Libya, the French definitely had their hands deep in the mix. It's clear that some of these actions are bound to come back like a boomerang...

It’s just a shame how the boomerang always seems to hit the people who have absolutely nothing to do with the politics involved. If you look at all the targets being hit—aside from the stadium itself—you're looking at neighborhoods where working-class Americans and minority communities actually live. Most of the crowd at this concert was probably just twenty-somethings out for a good time. I suspect it works the same way on the other side of the aisle, too. The political elites play their games, while the regular citizens end up paying the price.

European nations have become quite trigger-happy, despite having enjoyed a rather long stretch of peace. It seems to me that both those fools over at the EU aren't truly grasping the situation, nor do they understand the actual balance of power. To put it bluntly, they are playing with fire. These aren't Americans, who fight wars based on cold interest without much emotional attachment. Historically, European powers have dismantled entire civilizations without breaking a sweat; that instinct hasn't vanished, it’s just dormant. What these lunatics are doing in the Middle East is mere child's play compared to what could happen if the Russians, British, French, or even the Italians or Spaniards were to actually lose their tempers. They could tear the North America back into its constituent pieces in an instant.
The real catastrophe begins if any of those powers clash with one another. If that happens, the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket.

Quite frankly, the people in the EU haven't a clue what they are dealing with. They don't realize how ridiculous they look, publishing maps claiming they'll conquer half of Europe.
History shows that through this kind of terrorism, no one has ever achieved anything except for getting themselves absolutely crushed in the end.

ruggedjackal46 said:It’s just a shame how the boomerang always seems to hit the people who have absolutely nothing to do with the politics involved. If you look at all the targets being hit—aside from the stadium itself—you're looking at neighborhoods where working-class Americans and minority communities actually live. Most of the crowd at this concert was probably just twenty-somethings out for a good time. I suspect it works the same way on the other side of the aisle, too. The political elites play their games, while the regular citizens end up paying the price.

Exactly, it’s like that old saying: when two giants clash, it's the little guy who gets trampled. The ones with the least blame always suffer the most.

Now, if this turns out to be true:

http://www.nytimes.com/article/example-news-link-here/1458404/

Then you really have to wonder if someone let this happen on purpose just to create an excuse for future moves. Especially when you consider how Western intelligence agencies have been involved in training everything from the Syrian opposition to Bin Laden and ISIS...

http://www.cnn.com/world/obama-isis-intelligence-history-434283

As regular people, we can't see the whole picture, but you can bet anything that there's a much deeper, much messier story behind all of this...

Matthew Young35 said:European nations have become quite trigger-happy, despite having enjoyed a rather long stretch of peace. It seems to me that both those fools over at the EU aren't truly grasping the situation, nor do they understand the actual balance of power. To put it bluntly, they are playing with fire. These aren't Americans, who fight wars based on cold interest without much emotional attachment. Historically, European powers have dismantled entire civilizations without breaking a sweat; that instinct hasn't vanished, it’s just dormant. What these lunatics are doing in the Middle East is mere child's play compared to what could happen if the Russians, British, French, or even the Italians or Spaniards were to actually lose their tempers. They could tear the North America back into its constituent pieces in an instant.
The real catastrophe begins if any of those powers clash with one another. If that happens, the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket.

Quite frankly, the people in the EU haven't a clue what they are dealing with. They don't realize how ridiculous they look, publishing maps claiming they'll conquer half of Europe.
History shows that through this kind of terrorism, no one has ever achieved anything except for getting themselves absolutely crushed in the end.

That's the honest truth right there. Europeans practically invented genocide and total destruction; they're just waiting for a breaking point so the public turns against Muslims, and then everything goes to hell. I guess the only thing we'll actually see come out of this is everyone losing their civil liberties just in the name of "security."

James Anderson5 said:I think it's less about discipline and more about the sheer desperation at the core of everything. Over the last century, the West has been tearing the Middle East apart, whether through direct military force or intelligence games. On top of that, you have incredibly violent and inhumane policies being pushed against Palestine. When people feel like there's no other way to change their reality—and they truly don't see one—they become willing to sacrifice everything...

And before we start blaming Islam itself for every explosion, let's remember why certain domestic terrorists were arrested—like those who planted bombs in the New York subway system just to cause chaos because they felt powerless to fix the political situation back home. This recent group operating over in France is really just a mix of those types of radicalized individuals...

I also fully agree with what Jessica Gonzalez said: France occupied Algeria for 132 years, and during the war for independence, between 500,000 and 1.8 million Algerians lost their lives, mostly civilians. We know all about the foreign interference in the Middle East and who's pulling the strings behind these wars. In places like Libya, the French definitely had their hands deep in the mix. It's clear that some of these actions are bound to come back like a boomerang...

I agree that Bušić committed a terrorist act out of desperation. But it's common knowledge that the old regime used to send roses and sing love songs to any dissident emigrants... you're comparing apples to oranges here.

Morgan Foster said:I agree that Bušić committed a terrorist act out of desperation. But it's common knowledge that the old regime used to send roses and sing love songs to any dissident emigrants... you're comparing apples to oranges here.

Why would I mix up apples and oranges? It’s obvious that all dissidents were under surveillance during the old era, but it's also clear that most extremism in history stems from economic instability, lack of education, and human rights violations—not religion. Religion is just there to give a psychopath some kind of justification for what they want to do...

Neither Buddhism, Islam, nor Christianity are inherently violent, yet you'll find followers of all those faiths who have done all sorts of terrible things throughout history...

In its best form, Islam simply enriched Western history and culture, from the Alhambra to the palaces of Sicily, contributing everything from science to literature; but in its worst form today, it poses a threat to physical security...

James Anderson5 said:Why would I mix up apples and oranges? It’s obvious that all dissidents were under surveillance during the old era, but it's also clear that most extremism in history stems from economic instability, lack of education, and human rights violations—not religion. Religion is just there to give a psychopath some kind of justification for what they want to do...

Neither Buddhism, Islam, nor Christianity are inherently violent, yet you'll find followers of all those faiths who have done all sorts of terrible things throughout history...

In its best form, Islam simply enriched Western history and culture, from the Alhambra to the palaces of Sicily, contributing everything from science to literature; but in its worst form today, it poses a threat to physical security...

It would be like claiming a psychopath only acted out because the state of the country gave him some sort of "justification" for his intentions. That’s just not how it works. There are very clear, undeniable reasons why he did what he did. It's the same logic as why a group of people would decide to scatter in different directions the moment a bomb goes off in a crowded area. The motives are right there if you actually look at them.

People claim Islam isn't violent? Look, the Quran isn't exactly a massive tome. You can fly through it pretty quickly. I’d actually suggest you sit down and read it for yourself. Once you get into it, you'll see that message of peace and love firsthand.

If you’re claiming it isn't violent, then how exactly do you account for the legal systems in various Middle Eastern nations? I'm talking about things like public lashings or stoning. Is it really possible that every single one of them is just fundamentally misinterpreting the text? It seems hard to believe such a massive, widespread misunderstanding would happen everywhere at once.

You're missing the point because your entire argument starts from a flawed premise. They didn't attack because of religion, they didn't attack because we're "infidels," and it's not some grand scheme to Islamize us (?). The attack wasn't about faith—it was driven by other factors that you, Emily Ward3, that wannabe comedian Ken, and the rest of you seem determined to ignore, which is exactly what this thread has been debating for three days now.
They use religious rhetoric because the people pulling their strings have brainwashed them into thinking there’s a reward waiting in paradise—but that isn't why the attack happened.

For three days now, you've been bashing Islam, yet you conveniently forget how many people have been slaughtered in the name of Christianity—and you also forget that "peaceful" Christians in this country have only managed to nearly wipe each other out twice in the last century.

Besides, when you start quoting the Old Testament—all those lovely verses about forgiveness and peace...🙄

No, Islam isn't inherently violent, just as Christianity or Buddhism aren't—even though millions have died in the name of all three. Why? Because there are enough corrupt people in this world to twist any belief system to serve their own petty interests. Attacking Islam is an insult to the millions of people who have lived peacefully in America for generations under that "violent" faith.

Personally, I don't think religion does anyone any good, but I can understand why some people need it. Still, seeing one religion like Christianity being placed on a pedestal above all others—it's honestly nauseating.

Someone was bringing up peaceful religions earlier, but then you look at what’s happening in places like Myanmar, where Buddhist extremists are targeting Muslims.

Michelle Doyle61 said:It would be like claiming a psychopath only acted out because the state of the country gave him some sort of "justification" for his intentions. That’s just not how it works. There are very clear, undeniable reasons why he did what he did. It's the same logic as why a group of people would decide to scatter in different directions the moment a bomb goes off in a crowded area. The motives are right there if you actually look at them.

People claim Islam isn't violent? Look, the Quran isn't exactly a massive tome. You can fly through it pretty quickly. I’d actually suggest you sit down and read it for yourself. Once you get into it, you'll see that message of peace and love firsthand.

If you’re claiming it isn't violent, then how exactly do you account for the legal systems in various Middle Eastern nations? I'm talking about things like public lashings or stoning. Is it really possible that every single one of them is just fundamentally misinterpreting the text? It seems hard to believe such a massive, widespread misunderstanding would happen everywhere at once.

How do you think that Quran even came to be—just popped out of thin air, or was it more like an upgrade to an existing ideology? Ever actually peeked into that collection of texts people call the Old Testament? I mean, where do you think these crazy ideas come from—the whole "divine mission" thing, blind obedience to authority, treating outsiders like they don't matter, using deception to get ahead, or basically making murder look okay...

Yeah, we have the New Testament, sure, but too often it’s just been used as window dressing for violence—basically a hollow mantra or just words on a page. Like, what do the Crusades, colonialism, the Inquisition, or corrupt clergy have to do with Jesus’s actual teachings? On the flip side, the Old Testament isn't just a source for some dangerous mental virus; it’s also a monument to the human spirit—a pretty magnificent work... Just like Islam isn't just pure primitivism and violence; it’s a religion that, in certain ways, pushed past Judaism and Christianity, carrying this incredibly deep mystical tradition...

It's hard for Muslims to really catch up to the West when you look at the negative historical track record. So, why don't we actually dig into the root of the problem? We like to act all high and mighty like we solved it ages ago, but we didn't—we're just playing dumb. Then we act surprised when we see these nasty symptoms popping up over the fence, acting like they have nothing to do with us. But they do—it's cultural, it's ancestral, and honestly, it's just cause and effect.

🤣

The perpetrators behind that attack in Paris made their motivations perfectly clear, yet we can certainly pretend we possess a deeper understanding of their intent than they do themselves... Much like how editors at satirical magazines aren't targeted because of their faith, but rather for entirely different reasons 🐔 so perhaps some genius could enlighten us on the true purpose behind these strikes, though I'm sure the federal authorities will eventually uncover the real motive...

Personally, I couldn't care less; I know we aren't a target here in the States, so Europe can deal with its own mess however it sees fit

And if our primary defense in 2015 is going to be "well, they haven't killed as many people as the West has," then there really isn't any point in continuing this conversation

ruggedjackal46 said:Someone was bringing up peaceful religions earlier, but then you look at what’s happening in places like Myanmar, where Buddhist extremists are targeting Muslims.

So what? Even in China, they crack down on their Muslim population quite regularly whenever anyone dares to raise their head and demand basic rights that we in the West would consider standard...

It is simply much easier and more convenient to go after European cartoonists for drawing Muhammad; it’s much nicer living in Germany or Denmark where you can collect social benefits while just waiting for the right moment to show the infidels who's boss. Trying to get active in China? Well, it's difficult to be a terrorist in countries where life isn't particularly pleasant, and when you lack fundamental rights, there aren't any civil liberties groups rushing to your rescue... zero points.

Honestly guys, the Spanish colonized half the globe and nobody is out there trying to reclaim territory today. People are living in 2015 and leaving the past exactly where it belongs...

Alex Brown50 said:How do you think that Quran even came to be—just popped out of thin air, or was it more like an upgrade to an existing ideology? Ever actually peeked into that collection of texts people call the Old Testament? I mean, where do you think these crazy ideas come from—the whole "divine mission" thing, blind obedience to authority, treating outsiders like they don't matter, using deception to get ahead, or basically making murder look okay...

Yeah, we have the New Testament, sure, but too often it’s just been used as window dressing for violence—basically a hollow mantra or just words on a page. Like, what do the Crusades, colonialism, the Inquisition, or corrupt clergy have to do with Jesus’s actual teachings? On the flip side, the Old Testament isn't just a source for some dangerous mental virus; it’s also a monument to the human spirit—a pretty magnificent work... Just like Islam isn't just pure primitivism and violence; it’s a religion that, in certain ways, pushed past Judaism and Christianity, carrying this incredibly deep mystical tradition...

It's hard for Muslims to really catch up to the West when you look at the negative historical track record. So, why don't we actually dig into the root of the problem? We like to act all high and mighty like we solved it ages ago, but we didn't—we're just playing dumb. Then we act surprised when we see these nasty symptoms popping up over the fence, acting like they have nothing to do with us. But they do—it's cultural, it's ancestral, and honestly, it's just cause and effect.

And the New Testament backs up the very filth God demanded in the Old:

Jesus said:[/B] Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets! I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest stroke of a pen or the least stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who breaks one of the smallest commandments and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever keeps and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
MATTHEW 5:18-19

The West and its history don't justify what these people are doing today. The goal should be to eliminate all filth, not to use our own filth to justify theirs.

It’s not all black and white, so I guess I haven't been particularly shaken by any of it. There have always been wars and terrorism; maybe it's just because violence is such a deep-seated part of human nature.