Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

I am not going around telling anyone they aren't allowed to believe something, nor am I demanding they adopt my own convictions. My only contention is that they shouldn't burden me with rules derived from their belief in the supernatural. The distinction is more than clear, isn't it? 🤷

As far as I'm concerned, you can worship at the altar of Christmas or believe in flying spaghetti monsters for all I care, just don't try to stop me from eating a steak simply because you’ve been told it's a sacred animal.

Then again, so many Christian customs have drifted into being just part of ordinary, secular life that they barely hold any primary connection to faith anymore. You see Muslims living in cities like New York decorating with fir trees, much like how even old-school communists embraced Santa Claus as a convenient substitute for the traditional December gift-giving season.

To claim otherwise—to insist these are strictly religious elements—is to suggest we've lost our grip on reality. Don't you think?

I mean, if that's how it works, then why don't believers just take June 22nd off too? (Assuming May 1st is already a Federal holiday, obviously). I guess they just prefer to tack it onto the weekend every single year instead... 😳

Seriously though, why is Santa Claus perfectly fine with everyone, but a Jack o' Lantern isn't?

bluebison47 said:I mean, if that's how it works, then why don't believers just take June 22nd off too? (Assuming May 1st is already a Federal holiday, obviously). I guess they just prefer to tack it onto the weekend every single year instead... 😳

Seriously though, why is Santa Claus perfectly fine with everyone, but a Jack o' Lantern isn't?

The way you and Matthew Young35 keep trying to justify yourselves is just... honestly, it’s getting pretty ridiculous.
So, Antifa members can't be Catholic? Is that how it works now...
Since when does staying home on a Federal holiday suddenly mean you're endorsing whatever political cause is currently trending...
Nobody’s stopping you from just staying home today, hanging out, and skipping work...

We’re all sitting here talking about how hypocritical it is when people suddenly start clinging to religion and old traditions just because it’s "trendy" or "hipster" right now. If you're going to make that claim, then actually stick to it and try living through a single day without a Christmas tree, gift-giving, or any of that other stuff... Besides, Santa Claus originally stems from Saint Nicholas, except Coca-Cola basically commercialized him into this whole Christmas icon we call Santa Claus today.

brightpilot6 said:I am not going around telling anyone they aren't allowed to believe something, nor am I demanding they adopt my own convictions. My only contention is that they shouldn't burden me with rules derived from their belief in the supernatural. The distinction is more than clear, isn't it? 🤷

As far as I'm concerned, you can worship at the altar of Christmas or believe in flying spaghetti monsters for all I care, just don't try to stop me from eating a steak simply because you’ve been told it's a sacred animal.

Then again, so many Christian customs have drifted into being just part of ordinary, secular life that they barely hold any primary connection to faith anymore. You see Muslims living in cities like New York decorating with fir trees, much like how even old-school communists embraced Santa Claus as a convenient substitute for the traditional December gift-giving season.

To claim otherwise—to insist these are strictly religious elements—is to suggest we've lost our grip on reality. Don't you think?

it’s a level of confusion that’s hard to quantify, even with the most precise language☕

I'm not imposing anything on anyone—much like you claim you aren't doing, and frankly, I couldn't if I tried. My point is simply this: if you claim to stand for one thing while doing another, or if you attack a phenomenon in one breath and embrace its components in the next, you come across as unserious, unfocused, and incoherent. That's all there is to it.

@ Paul Martinez73

I think you might have mixed up your arguments here. It would certainly be hypocritical if someone were to rail against secular planning for Christmas while simultaneously organizing it themselves, or if they criticized attending Midnight Mass while showing up to attend it personally. If you can find an example like that, then we’re talking about true hypocrisy.

Everything else is a completely different matter. When people criticize the Church or Catholic activists here in the States, they aren't usually targeting the observance of religious holidays; rather, they tend to take issue with them meddling in spheres where they simply don't belong—things like interfering in private lives or attempting to influence political institutions.

So, the premise that there is a widespread opposition to every single religious element is fundamentally flawed from the get-go.

Ultimately, you seem to be viewing this through too much of a black-and-white lens. There really aren't many people in America who would want to root out every single thing connected to the Church or to faith. (And yes, if such a person were to celebrate Christmas, wouldn't that be hypocritical?)

brightpilot6 said:I am not going around telling anyone they aren't allowed to believe something, nor am I demanding they adopt my own convictions. My only contention is that they shouldn't burden me with rules derived from their belief in the supernatural. The distinction is more than clear, isn't it? 🤷

As far as I'm concerned, you can worship at the altar of Christmas or believe in flying spaghetti monsters for all I care, just don't try to stop me from eating a steak simply because you’ve been told it's a sacred animal.

Then again, so many Christian customs have drifted into being just part of ordinary, secular life that they barely hold any primary connection to faith anymore. You see Muslims living in cities like New York decorating with fir trees, much like how even old-school communists embraced Santa Claus as a convenient substitute for the traditional December gift-giving season.

To claim otherwise—to insist these are strictly religious elements—is to suggest we've lost our grip on reality. Don't you think?

Well, your stance is clear, and mine is too.
I'm a believer, personally, but I don't impose that on anyone—in fact, I don't even bring it up with people I know don't practice any kind of faith. Likewise, it bugs me when someone tries to act like I'm an idiot just because I believe in something.
I'm not preaching to you about how you should celebrate Christmas, but I also don't want you telling me I shouldn't celebrate it, because that's just nonsense.

The fact that Muslims have Christmas trees just proves that people today are walking around without any common sense. Of course, being Muslim doesn't automatically make someone a devout believer. Just like being American doesn't automatically make someone Catholic. People treat faith so lightly these days; they'll do whatever it takes just to snag a few likes on Instagram or to look "modern" to others.

These are strictly religious elements that the masses—driven by media, Facebook, and Instagram—have adopted just to feel cool and trendy. Take Hana Hadzagbabcic, for instance; she has millions of shallow kids following her on Instagram, and she tells them to celebrate Catholic Christmas, Eid, Orthodox Christmas, Easter, and so on. It's all for the sake of likes and easy money from those same mindless kids.
And now she’s one of many shaping the minds of those same kids... which is why we end up with generations of idiots who have zero identity and no ability to actually grow as individuals.

To wrap this up, I have nothing against an Atheist, a Muslim, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster follower celebrating Christmas; honestly, I’m happy to accept a greeting from them and return it. The issue is when people spend 350 days a year trashing everything related to faith and the church, only to decide that for five days a year, it's all totally fine and they're suddenly "cool" and accepting.

Paul Martinez73 said:You clearly don't know enough...☕
Decorating a fir tree is deeply tied to Christianity; there’s just some speculation regarding the exact origins and how the tradition of decorating a fir tree for Christmas started. But if you look into it, you can trace it back to very early times, most often originating in Germany, where the connection is exclusively Christian—those are the strongest theories out there.

Do you decorate a fir tree on other days too? Why don't you celebrate by decorating a tree and getting drunk and overeating on other holidays or special occasions?

Here's a little bit of free education for you...
https://www.whychristmas.com/customs/trees.shtml

Also, giving gifts at Christmas is exclusively and solely linked to Christianity and how the Three Kings gave gifts to Jesus Christ.

So, my dear Redditors, whether you want to admit it or not, today you've found a piece of Faith and the Catholic Church within yourselves; you're participating in it, and through that, you've realized that Jesus was born today. With your joy, songs, drinking, and eating, you are celebrating His birthday.

That's my boy Anthony Jackson2, acting like you're raising your hand to say you aren't a Nazi, but that the Nazis just took it from the Romans... while basically admitting you're an idiot in the process.

Decorating a tree as such is just a continuation of the custom of bringing evergreen greenery—mainly branches—into northern homes. There are plenty of theories on who started it, but the goal was to drive evil spirits out during the dark period of the year when days are shortest or non-existent. It’s a pagan custom, plain and simple. Just because Germans later linked it to Christianity doesn't make the custom Christian; it's just one more thing Christianity stole—or "appropriated," if you prefer the polite term.

And that’s a bare-bones explanation. The topic is way deeper than that, so trying to "educate" someone with a link to a page that only scratches the surface is a total fail. Educate yourself before you try educating others.😉

Paul Martinez73 said:The way you and Matthew Young35 keep trying to justify yourselves is just... honestly, it’s getting pretty ridiculous.
So, Antifa members can't be Catholic? Is that how it works now...
Since when does staying home on a Federal holiday suddenly mean you're endorsing whatever political cause is currently trending...
Nobody’s stopping you from just staying home today, hanging out, and skipping work...

We’re all sitting here talking about how hypocritical it is when people suddenly start clinging to religion and old traditions just because it’s "trendy" or "hipster" right now. If you're going to make that claim, then actually stick to it and try living through a single day without a Christmas tree, gift-giving, or any of that other stuff... Besides, Santa Claus originally stems from Saint Nicholas, except Coca-Cola basically commercialized him into this whole Christmas icon we call Santa Claus today.

Excuse me, but who exactly am I justifying myself to, and for what?
To you?
Don't be absurd.
Am I supposed to apologize because I have a Nativity scene and a tree at home and attend Midnight Mass?
Actually, I don't go to Mass, and I don't even have a tree or a Nativity scene.

I told you quite clearly that I celebrate the federal holiday, not some religious or spiritual event.

As far as I'm concerned, Christmas is just a day for eating and drinking.
If there were believers living under my roof, then sure, I’d have a pine tree and a Nativity scene—and maybe even a glowing statue of the Virgin Mary—not out of faith, but simply out of respect for my housemates.

About ten or fifteen years ago, I attended Midnight Mass once, but not for myself; I went out of respect for the group I was with and their wishes. I'm not a partybreaker. If the group had wanted to go to a mosque, I would have gone to a mosque.

If I lived with a small child, I'd have a tree too. Kids get excited about it, and they start asking why all the other kids have a tree and we don't.

But as it stands? What use do I have for a tree in my house?

A Pine is just a tree people decorate because, let's face it, we all get tired of the same old daily grind and want to spruce up the house once in a while. All that stuff—the decorating, the gift-giving, the planning, the massive feasts—those are just basic human impulses that have been around forever, regardless of Christianity. Even if some of these rituals trace their roots back to religious traditions, most people have already reclaimed them and stripped away the heavy theological baggage. It’s perfectly normal. If people didn't use Christmas for this, they’d just find something else to latch onto; for instance, if we lived in a majority Muslim country, maybe it would be centered around Eid instead. And hey, if those rituals actually help believers connect with their faith? Good for them.

I honestly have to wonder if any of you are actually sane.

Tansre Žićbo—whether he celebrates or not—deserves nothing but the best.

Rachel Cooper3 said:I honestly have to wonder if any of you are actually sane.

Tansre Žićbo—whether he celebrates or not—deserves nothing but the best.

🤷
And that, well, only halfway there.

Whether Tansre Žićbo celebrates or stays quiet, I wish him nothing but the best.

And to you too, son.

I’ve got some Muslim friends living over in Germany who celebrate Christmas just like everyone else. People have basically embraced that part of the tradition as their own—when I asked them why, they just said the whole Christmas vibe is awesome and they love the gift-giving season.
Honestly, I think it's great. Even when I find myself in Muslim countries during Eid, it feels totally normal to celebrate alongside my buddies... even though I'm not exactly a religious guy. I wouldn't call myself an atheist, either.

From what I understand, decorating a Pine tree actually started back in Freiburg—they used to put treats on a tree outside a butcher shop during Christmas to give gifts to the local kids in need.
Every kid was allowed to grab one gift that day.

Christmas is just a huge part of our culture at this point, regardless of what we actually believe...

This time of year is really meant for people to take a break from all these divisions and debates, regardless of where they actually stem from. Hanging out with family, exchanging gifts, decorating the Christmas tree, Advent—it’s hard to find a single downside to these traditions. If you have any reason to enjoy life during these days, maybe just lean into it and embrace some of those religious customs, even if they're just part of the festivities. It seems a bit strange to me that someone on the doorstep of 2020 thinks they're being extra clever just because they believe religions are inventions. Even the Church itself knows it's a construct; they essentially created themselves. It’s kind of like trying to explain to a magician that his tricks aren't actual magic. Religion acts as a social tool, a collective fantasy that helps bring large groups of people together. It has positive effects too, and I guess Christmas is one of them. Since the beginning of time, people have always needed celebrations and rituals. Unless you have a truly devastating reason to be miserable at the end of December—and I certainly hope you or your loved ones aren't suffering—just try to enjoy life. Many people can't. I was at a funeral just the day before yesterday for a good friend who took his own life by jumping in front of a train, leaving behind three young kids. For me, getting through these Christmas fairy tales is probably the least of my worries.

Larry Fox5 said:I’ve got some Muslim friends living over in Germany who celebrate Christmas just like everyone else. People have basically embraced that part of the tradition as their own—when I asked them why, they just said the whole Christmas vibe is awesome and they love the gift-giving season.
Honestly, I think it's great. Even when I find myself in Muslim countries during Eid, it feels totally normal to celebrate alongside my buddies... even though I'm not exactly a religious guy. I wouldn't call myself an atheist, either.

From what I understand, decorating a Pine tree actually started back in Freiburg—they used to put treats on a tree outside a butcher shop during Christmas to give gifts to the local kids in need.
Every kid was allowed to grab one gift that day.

Christmas is just a huge part of our culture at this point, regardless of what we actually believe...

Wouldn't it have been more logical to hang cuts of meat on the tree if it was sitting in front of a butcher shop?

And if we were following actual logic today, we wouldn't be hanging ornaments and candy on the tree; we'd be hanging ornaments and pork hams.

The absolute worst part is when people start acting shocked—like, "How on earth is KGK the president?" or "How can Skoro be this powerful?" Honestly, if they just showed up to this thread, they’d realize we probably didn't even deserve better than this. 🙏

Even majstor Pepeto has arrived to flip the script on the Queen group politics☕

Jessica Gonzalez, my heart breaks for you. There’s nothing worse than losing someone right when the holidays are rolling in...

That was easily the worst funeral I've ever attended, and I buried my own father not too long ago. This one felt much heavier, just pure depression. The guy was a huge fan of the local baseball team, so they played their anthems while he was being laid to rest. Then I get home feeling completely drained in the evening, only for my wife to tell me she's pregnant again. I guess that’s just life; you just have to keep moving forward and try not to sweat the small stuff.

Jessica Gonzalez said:That was easily the worst funeral I've ever attended, and I buried my own father not too long ago. This one felt much heavier, just pure depression. The guy was a huge fan of the local baseball team, so they played their anthems while he was being laid to rest. Then I get home feeling completely drained in the evening, only for my wife to tell me she's pregnant again. I guess that’s just life; you just have to keep moving forward and try not to sweat the small stuff.

Life is just plain crazy sometimes. My condolences and congratulations all at once. :x

Death and rebirth—it's just part of the deal, isn't it? Something we can't just look away from...
My condolences, and congrats too... I hope they stay healthy and strong.

Deepest condolences and best wishes

Paul Martinez73, I’m not getting dragged into any debates. I think it’s pretty obvious why I decided to bring up politics during this time of year...