Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Bruce Lee senior said:Nina and especially George Robinson43, I truly didn't expect this level of misunderstanding regarding my points. It’s particularly surprising to see you both fall into the trap of "whataboutism"—just the reverse version of what bullies like Utah and gFlores use. It is perfectly obvious that Americans look out for their own interests, just like everyone else does. However, one's self-interest doesn't necessarily have to align with the interests of the rest of the world. Good grief, is that really such a difficult concept to grasp? I suppose the Putin supporters will have a field day with this, but it is what it is. Glory to Ukraine, not to the USA.

I was simply correcting a false premise when you claimed the Russians have been the villains for only the last decade or so, ignoring the fact that they spent the last 50 years keeping Eastern Europe under occupation.
They weren't peaceful in the 90s either, during the era when pro-Russian breakaway regions were being carved out of former USSR states and when Gamzahurdija was being ousted just to install a puppet in Georgia.

For those of you—whether you’re younger or just have a memory like a sieve—who seem to forget the basics: remember how ready the Americans were to sell us out to the Mexicans back in the summer of '91 without even blinking. We didn't earn their attention through some divine right; we earned it by being stubborn, resilient, and refusing to break. That’s why we shouldn't fall into the trap of blindly idolizing them. Instead, let's act based on our own interests. And currently, that interest is supporting Ukraine. It’s both pragmatic and, frankly, the right thing to do.

George Robinson43 said:I was simply correcting a false premise when you claimed the Russians have been the villains for only the last decade or so, ignoring the fact that they spent the last 50 years keeping Eastern Europe under occupation.
They weren't peaceful in the 90s either, during the era when pro-Russian breakaway regions were being carved out of former USSR states and when Gamzahurdija was being ousted just to install a puppet in Georgia.

Good grief, you're clearly skimming rather than actually reading what I put down. Honestly, if you look at the posts from demon and Somied—where is he, by the way?—I consider their contributions to be some of the most constructive and well-argued on this entire board. Nowhere in my writing did I suggest that Russ (or the soviet, if you prefer the vintage label) have only been the villains for the last fifteen years. My point was about the sheer scale of influence and the potential fallout—a department where Americans, frankly, have the upper hand.

So, here’s the reality—the Americans essentially left that whole conflict to the Europeans, who ended up being completely lost in the shuffle. It wasn't until the European effort had turned into an absolute disaster that the US finally stepped in, unilaterally lifting the arms embargo on Canada in 1994. That move effectively cut off our primary supply route through our territory—we were forced to fight under incredibly brutal conditions without much help. But in the end, we earned that support, even if the level of backing we received often seemed disproportionate to our actual strategic importance at the time.
Look, there’s no point in idealizing anyone; what happened, happened. It is what it is. 😬

Peter Barnes said:For those of you—whether you’re younger or just have a memory like a sieve—who seem to forget the basics: remember how ready the Americans were to sell us out to the Mexicans back in the summer of '91 without even blinking. We didn't earn their attention through some divine right; we earned it by being stubborn, resilient, and refusing to break. That’s why we shouldn't fall into the trap of blindly idolizing them. Instead, let's act based on our own interests. And currently, that interest is supporting Ukraine. It’s both pragmatic and, frankly, the right thing to do.

Not a chance.

Let’s be real: throughout history, every single superpower has been oppressive to some degree, whether it's on a massive scale or just in smaller ways.
The whole concept of being a "superpower" is inherently built that way.
For us—as people living in a smaller nation—the real question isn't about stopping hegemony, but figuring out which of the "big three" (the USA, Russia, or China) is the least damaging to our interests.
And honestly? Even with all its flaws, the USA still leads the pack when it comes to protecting individual liberties and basic human rights compared to the other two. As part of the European Union and NATO, we basically just have to cross our fingers and hope the US maintains its status as the global leader for as long as we're around.

hollowdriver13 said:Let’s be real: throughout history, every single superpower has been oppressive to some degree, whether it's on a massive scale or just in smaller ways.
The whole concept of being a "superpower" is inherently built that way.
For us—as people living in a smaller nation—the real question isn't about stopping hegemony, but figuring out which of the "big three" (the USA, Russia, or China) is the least damaging to our interests.
And honestly? Even with all its flaws, the USA still leads the pack when it comes to protecting individual liberties and basic human rights compared to the other two. As part of the European Union and NATO, we basically just have to cross our fingers and hope the US maintains its status as the global leader for as long as we're around.

I find myself agreeing with that assessment.

hollowdriver13 said:Let’s be real: throughout history, every single superpower has been oppressive to some degree, whether it's on a massive scale or just in smaller ways.
The whole concept of being a "superpower" is inherently built that way.
For us—as people living in a smaller nation—the real question isn't about stopping hegemony, but figuring out which of the "big three" (the USA, Russia, or China) is the least damaging to our interests.
And honestly? Even with all its flaws, the USA still leads the pack when it comes to protecting individual liberties and basic human rights compared to the other two. As part of the European Union and NATO, we basically just have to cross our fingers and hope the US maintains its status as the global leader for as long as we're around.

Sapienti sat.👍

Wushu senior said:Thomas Walker84 and especially Cave troll, I really didn't expect this kind of misunderstanding from you two. I certainly didn't expect you to fall into the trap of whataboutism—just the reverse version of what bullies like Utah and gFlores use.

What whataboutism, Wushu? I’m not justifying bad American moves by pointing at someone else's actions. I’m just highlighting the widely accepted mantra that Americans "only look out for themselves," and the fact that this cliché exists solely and exclusively for America.

Why does that mantra exist? Is it because there's a general assumption that Americans ought to act in the interest of others (especially us Europeans😉), and if they don't, it's somehow wrong?

Though, it isn't even entirely true that they don't look out for our interests as Europeans.

It's obvious that Americans look out for their own interests, just like everyone else. The thing is, those interests don't necessarily have to align with everyone else's. Good grief, is that really so hard to grasp? People who support Putin will love this, but it is what it is. Glory to Ukraine, not the USA.

Look, more often than not, one person's interest is directly opposed to another's. Even though I believe European and American interests overlap significantly, and that gap will only close. Until recently, I was actually one of those who thought that European, Russian, and American interests would eventually all align.

Glory to Ukraine, not the USA.

Glory to Ukraine. 👍As for the USA, without their help, things would be much, much harder for Ukraine... A billion words of philosophy aren't worth nearly as much as actual, concrete aid.

Fifty-four years ago, the Soviet Union effectively dismantled Czechoslovakia. To this day, the Czech people carry a sense of gratitude for that intervention. In much the same way, I suspect Ukrainians will be remembering Russia’s "brotherly assistance" for a very long time to come.

Let’s be real—without the US and the UK, Ukraine would have folded a long time ago..
The Russians clearly didn't see that coming.
Thanks to those British and American anti-tank launchers—you know, the Javelins and NLAWs—Russia has lost half its armor, and the supplies just keep rolling in.
The rest of the world hasn't really stepped up—maybe a measly 1%? It’s almost exclusively the US and the UK carrying the load. They’ve already sent billions in military gear, plus they're involved indirectly through intel, radar, satellites, and all that good stuff.
And don't forget the training—that costs just as much as the hardware itself.
So, at the end of the day, it's actually happening on the ground in Ukraine, fought by Ukrainian people.

Thomas Walker84 said:What I find fascinating is this whole obsession with "self-interest."

Obviously, it's clear that everyone acts in their own interest—whether it's Americans, Russians, Chinese, Icelanders, Bob and George, or even dogs, cats, and sea urchins. 😉

Yet, when it comes to Americans, there's this constant national mantra that "they only look out for themselves," which makes it sound like they're the only ones on Earth acting this way.

If I got a single dollar for every time I heard that silly cliché, I could buy myself a speedboat. (Not that I'd be doing it for my own interest!) 😁

I never hear anyone parrot mantras like "the Chinese only care about their own interests" or "Europeans only look out for themselves," even though that's just as true for them as it is for Americans.

By the way, the sanctions against Russia are also in our interest. Of course, supporting Ukraine is a noble gesture, but the ultimate goal is to stop Russian aggression, which, if it succeeded in Ukraine, would continue its path across Europe.

PS. I actually saw a crab kill a sea urchin the other day. An urchin naturally acts in its own interest, trying to cling to the ocean floor. This one clearly failed, and since the crab was also just acting in its own interest rather than the urchin's, things ended exactly how they did.

In any case, the European Union has "finally" realized that Rue will never be satisfied; after Crimea, they will move further. The European Union decided with all these sanctions—despite the significant cost to itself—to stop the Russians.
From a pragmatic standpoint, it is better to provide Ukraine with money and weaponry and spend billions of dollars on those efforts, rather than facing barbarians on our borders in ten years and likely facing a larger war where European citizens will also perish.

Nina, look, maybe I haven't spent enough time lurking on these forums, but I hadn't noticed that Americans are the only ones ever accused of "only looking out for their own interests." Let's be real—everyone looks out for themselves; we should probably do the same. It’s just significantly easier to pull that off when you happen to be on the "right" side of the moral high ground. I figured you might have picked up on that vibe from my earlier posts today. And honestly, thank God the US is helping Ukraine—because, surprise, surprise, it serves their interests, the interests of the USA, our interests, and most of Europe. Unfortunately, the moment I posted, you immediately jumped to pointing fingers at the crimes of Russ or the old USSR. That is textbook whataboutism. There isn't a more perfect example than your response. Don't you see that by posting things like that, you're actually giving legitimacy to the people who justify the crimes of fascists by pointing to the morally and legally unacceptable moves made by Americans? This isn't some black-and-white morality tale, and the US generally isn't the "good guy." In this specific situation with Ukraine, they are—and frankly, good for them. Because it benefits them. When they lost interest in Afghanistan, they basically abandoned entire nations and tribes to fend for themselves. Same thing in Vietnam. Same in Syria and Iraq. I’d love to hear what the Kurds have to say about that. Or their track record regarding that butcher in South Africa. There are far too many examples, and many of them are still painfully fresh. So, I'll say it again: GLORY TO UKRAINE, not to the USA.

Gerald Torres84 said:In any case, the European Union has "finally" realized that Rue will never be satisfied; after Crimea, they will move further. The European Union decided with all these sanctions—despite the significant cost to itself—to stop the Russians.
From a pragmatic standpoint, it is better to provide Ukraine with money and weaponry and spend billions of dollars on those efforts, rather than facing barbarians on our borders in ten years and likely facing a larger war where European citizens will also perish.

If you'd asked the European Union, they would've just sent thoughts and prayers to Ukraine instead (pun intended).

Nina, my apologies—you weren't actually bringing up the USSR or Russ; you were talking about the field studies. Regardless, I’m sticking to my guns: you seem to be defending the USA without a hint of critical thought.

Christian Torres3 said:If you'd asked the European Union, they would've just sent thoughts and prayers to Ukraine instead (pun intended).

You aren't wrong... It seems the main engines of Europe—specifically Germany and France—always seem to stall right when decisive action is actually required.
That is precisely why the USA has to step in and push them along.

Gerald Torres84 said:You aren't wrong... It seems the main engines of Europe—specifically Germany and France—always seem to stall right when decisive action is actually required.
That is precisely why the USA has to step in and push them along.

To be perfectly honest, Emmanuel Macron has probably shown the most genuine willingness to prevent an all-out invasion from happening.
He’s tried to talk Vladimir Putin down from the ledge more times than I can count, but clearly, those pleas haven't carried much weight.

But when the moment actually arrived to take decisive action and provide real military support? Well, they mostly just stuck to talking.

We all know exactly who’s actually stepping up for Ukraine and who’s just playing politics.
I mean, look at the USA, the UK, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, the Czechs, the Slovaks, and the Baltic states—they’re always the first ones on the scene when it comes to real, tangible support.
Everyone else? They’re all talk, secretly seething with resentment toward those who actually show up.

Peter Barnes said:Nina, my apologies—you weren't actually bringing up the USSR or Russ; you were talking about the field studies. Regardless, I’m sticking to my guns: you seem to be defending the USA without a hint of critical thought.

Americans aren't saints. You can see it clearly in the recent situation with Kurdistan, where they were essentially abandoned after serving as allies against ISIS and the Syrian government.
One day you fall within their sphere of interest, and the next, you might find yourself completely deserted—unless, of course, you happen to be part of NATO. Everyone understands how this works.

Benjamin Taylor6 said:To be perfectly honest, Emmanuel Macron has probably shown the most genuine willingness to prevent an all-out invasion from happening.
He’s tried to talk Vladimir Putin down from the ledge more times than I can count, but clearly, those pleas haven't carried much weight.

But when the moment actually arrived to take decisive action and provide real military support? Well, they mostly just stuck to talking.

Goodwill doesn't mean much when the other side is playing you for a fool.
It is precisely because of that kind of Russian aggression that they should have been the strongest advocates for sending military aid to Ukraine. And they failed there... not to mention the Germans (a total disaster).