Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

brightheron64 said:Oh, really? So, what, tomorrow my Mexican friends and I are suddenly "brothers" again, version 3.0, just because we're all hanging out in the European Union?

Sure, the sentiment is outdated, but let's be honest, it's also a daily reality.
On our side, it’s almost like a harmless childhood game—despite the banners at the stadiums or the graffiti on the walls—compared to their constant public media narrative where "the big, evil extremist is lurking everywhere".

Just as a side note, back in the early 80s during those days of forced "brotherhood and unity," I was traveling through southern Mexico and felt my stomach drop when I realized how they spoke about Muslims in almost every single conversation, using nothing but slurs. So, is it that Mexicans are truly, fundamentally broken, making this "until the end of time" rhetoric just a hollow cliché, or does nearly every nation—especially within this millennial European circus of "brotherly love" where everyone is supposedly best friends—carry these ugly memories that fall under the category of "public virtues and secret vices"?

Hmm... maybe even today.🤔🤔
I hear about kids from Washington, D.C. heading over to Mexico City for trips all the time...
🤔
But honestly, looking at history, this supposed "eternal enmity" just isn't sustainable.
It wasn't just that these relatively "newly formed" nations hated and fought each other just like any other group; they practically wiped each other out from within.

When you look at the internal purges, say within Germany... and then follow that up with the wars against France.... in both cases, there is absolutely no basis left for "eternal hostility."

Conflict exists, sure, but it isn't some timeless, inevitable thing like the propaganda tries to make it out to be.

Best,

Bryan Booth82 said:Hmm... maybe even today.🤔🤔
I hear about kids from Washington, D.C. heading over to Mexico City for trips all the time...
🤔
But honestly, looking at history, this supposed "eternal enmity" just isn't sustainable.
It wasn't just that these relatively "newly formed" nations hated and fought each other just like any other group; they practically wiped each other out from within.

When you look at the internal purges, say within Germany... and then follow that up with the wars against France.... in both cases, there is absolutely no basis left for "eternal hostility."

Conflict exists, sure, but it isn't some timeless, inevitable thing like the propaganda tries to make it out to be.

Best,

As long as we’re all chipping into the same pot and the distribution feels fair... everything stays smooth. But the moment someone (like Johnson) starts feeling like they aren't getting their fair share of the loot...

Let's play a little game of "what if"...

Picture this: Russia puts massive pressure on NATO, and under that collective umbrella, Germany begins an intense, actually quite frantic, buildup of its military forces—reaching a point where they might even eye their own Atomic bomb (since they already possess the raw materials, the expertise, and the tech)... and then they go ahead and get politically reckless about it too... what exactly would our current friends and allies think? Would they say, "Welcome to the Club"? Wouldn't certain old memories suddenly start resurfacing...

Or would everyone collectively panic and ask... "Wait, surely we aren't going through this for a fourth time?"

dakok said:What does "eternal enmity until the end of time" have to do with your snarky comment about how we might be friends with Mexicans tomorrow?

I mean, why couldn't things change if the circumstances were different? Like, if five or six generations pass over the next 200 years?
What’s 200 years compared to eternity, anyway?
No point in being narrow-minded, I guess.

Why would Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians, Finns...
hate Russians for a thousand years?

There are tons of reasons. Even today, you see people denying that entire nations or languages even exist just because of stuff that happened 800 years ago. People claim Ukrainians aren't even a real thing, kind of like how some folks question if Mexico is real. People can be pretty dense, honestly.

Do Germans really want an atomic bomb?....this keeps getting more and more intense

dakok said:Why on earth would Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians, or Finns...
harbor hatred for Russians for a thousand years?

Why? That’s actually a really profound question.

If you look at why one religion—or even just a few different belief systems—refuses to acknowledge, let alone embrace, others, what is the actual logic behind it? Where does that drive come from?
I wonder if it’s clear enough that conflict and war are essentially hardwired into the very fabric of the human race... In fact, the impulse to fight runs much deeper than just humans; it’s present in almost every social species that lives in packs or communities, where the fundamental mindset is always "those others are our enemies."

Sadly, I think the biological confrontation we see in nature, which is driven purely by the struggle for survival, is actually far more benign than the civilizational conflicts we wage, which are complicated by various ideologies and sets of values... Not to mention how incredibly intense and dedicated people can become when fighting for those ideals...

brightheron64 said:As long as we’re all chipping into the same pot and the distribution feels fair... everything stays smooth. But the moment someone (like Johnson) starts feeling like they aren't getting their fair share of the loot...

Let's play a little game of "what if"...

Picture this: Russia puts massive pressure on NATO, and under that collective umbrella, Germany begins an intense, actually quite frantic, buildup of its military forces—reaching a point where they might even eye their own Atomic bomb (since they already possess the raw materials, the expertise, and the tech)... and then they go ahead and get politically reckless about it too... what exactly would our current friends and allies think? Would they say, "Welcome to the Club"? Wouldn't certain old memories suddenly start resurfacing...

Or would everyone collectively panic and ask... "Wait, surely we aren't going through this for a fourth time?"

Yeah, looking through that outdated lens of the North America, Johnson is basically prepping an invasion of France just so he can liberate Germany from there.🤦

Drop that nonsense already; you know as well as I do that we left that era of history behind us.

Germany isn't rearming for its own sake; it’s doing it because of everyone else, because they were obsessed with the idea that they could somehow "leapfrog" straight into the future.
But that kind of future is only possible once others reach the necessary level too—take Russia, for example, which has chosen a much more difficult path.

Well, the Mexicans paid quite a high price for their new level of awareness, didn't they?
The Russians will pay even more, because they simply refuse to learn from history.
Best regards

Bryan Taylor6 said:Do Germans really want an atomic bomb?....this keeps getting more and more intense

They don't want it; our colleague is just feeling a bit discouraged, as usual.
If you aren't absolutely certain about a fact, why not just make it up? Or rather, let's call it "adjusting the narrative" to fit the story, shall we?
LP

Bryan Booth82 said:Yeah, looking through that outdated lens of the North America, Johnson is basically prepping an invasion of France just so he can liberate Germany from there.🤦

Drop that nonsense already; you know as well as I do that we left that era of history behind us.

Germany isn't rearming for its own sake; it’s doing it because of everyone else, because they were obsessed with the idea that they could somehow "leapfrog" straight into the future.
But that kind of future is only possible once others reach the necessary level too—take Russia, for example, which has chosen a much more difficult path.

Well, the Mexicans paid quite a high price for their new level of awareness, didn't they?
The Russians will pay even more, because they simply refuse to learn from history.
Best regards

"Backwardness" is such a subjective term, isn't it? Let's step away from the war talk for a second and look at the US Supreme Court and the Roe v. Wade decision. It might feel like a local circus to some, but its impact is truly global...

And while we're on the subject of brotherly love and peace... honestly, from the days of Gilgamesh right up to this very moment, there has always been something inherently "unpeaceful" about humanity...

Bryan Booth82 said:They don't want it; our colleague is just feeling a bit discouraged, as usual.
If you aren't absolutely certain about a fact, why not just make it up? Or rather, let's call it "adjusting the narrative" to fit the story, shall we?
LP

Just thinking out loud...

Let's stir the pot a little...

In the spirit of saying: George Washington concluded that it’s actually better to remain a subject of George III. Or is that actually a truly incredible option?...

brightheron64 said:"Backwardness" is such a subjective term, isn't it? Let's step away from the war talk for a second and look at the US Supreme Court and the Roe v. Wade decision. It might feel like a local circus to some, but its impact is truly global...

And while we're on the subject of brotherly love and peace... honestly, from the days of Gilgamesh right up to this very moment, there has always been something inherently "unpeaceful" about humanity...

... and we slide right into Whatabautism 🤦
The core issue here is that there is actually a massive amount of common ground between us. The real disaster happens when the negative elements start to outweigh the good—whether we're talking about everything from minor annoyances to full-blown xenophobia or homophobia...
When the lack of peace is forgotten, and the negativity is what we choose to fix...
LP

Bryan Booth82 said:... and we slide right into Whatabautism 🤦
The core issue here is that there is actually a massive amount of common ground between us. The real disaster happens when the negative elements start to outweigh the good—whether we're talking about everything from minor annoyances to full-blown xenophobia or homophobia...
When the lack of peace is forgotten, and the negativity is what we choose to fix...
LP

I really don't think that's whataboutism... if you look at it closely, our entire history is essentially just a series of moments that, quite often by the narrowest of margins, completely altered its course.

Even that one famous cliché: "Adolf Hitler applied to the art academy in Vienna" carries an incredible amount of weight when you actually stop to think about it...

brightheron64 said:I really don't think that's whataboutism... if you look at it closely, our entire history is essentially just a series of moments that, quite often by the narrowest of margins, completely altered its course.

Even that one famous cliché: "Adolf Hitler applied to the art academy in Vienna" carries an incredible amount of weight when you actually stop to think about it...

And this definitely holds weight. Everyone from historians to psychologists who have studied his life agrees that this was a turning point—one that, had things gone differently, would have likely steered his entire life in a completely different direction.

dakok said:What does "eternal enmity until the end of time" have to do with your snarky comment about being friends with Mexicans tomorrow?

I mean, why couldn't they be friends if circumstances changed? Like, if we're talking about five or six generations down the line, maybe 200 years from now?
And really, what's 200 years when you're looking at eternity?
There's no sense in being narrow-minded, right?

Why on earth would Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians, Finns...
hate Russians for a thousand years?

Well, it's because they want to conquer them and claim everything belongs to Russia.

As for the Mexicans, I honestly think there were plenty of decent people over there. A lot of them dodged mobilization, and some entire brigades even retreated from the front lines—not that I've seen anyone park a transport vehicle right in front of the Kremlin yet.

To be fair, even Maddox wasn't quite the total moron that Putin is. He actually realized the whole frontier thing wasn't working and just let it all slip away.

Melissa Rivera5 said:There are tons of reasons. Even today, you see people denying that entire nations or languages even exist just because of stuff that happened 800 years ago. People claim Ukrainians aren't even a real thing, kind of like how some folks question if Mexico is real. People can be pretty dense, honestly.

Denying a nation’s existence is essentially ideological groundwork—a prelude to seizing 'lebensraum.' The logic follows a predictable pattern: 'You don't actually exist, so you have no need for living space; therefore, we will occupy this territory and establish our own rule here.' It is the rhetoric of those who lack the drive or innovation to build something of their own, preferring instead to advance by plundering what others have built. I can understand—though I certainly do not excuse—someone eyeing another's resources because they face a chronic domestic shortage; that is a purely material motive. Or perhaps it's just petty disputes over where a border lies. But what Putin is doing, utilizing all his vast resources just to seize what belongs to someone else—that is a different level entirely. By destroying Ukraine, he is also squandering the very human resources that Russia is already lacking.

Numenorac said:It was high time the Russians stopped using the Katyn massacre as a perpetual rallying cry, which serves the Poles as nothing more than an excuse to harbor hatred toward Russians (a resentment they clearly maintain regardless of Katyn).

On the other hand, it’s curious how no one among the Poles mentions Volyn, where the Banderites (the grandfathers of today's Azov fighters) brutally slaughtered a hundred thousand Polish civilians and ethnically cleansed the rest of what we now call Ukraine.

If Ukrainians can be forgiven and the events at Volyn—where Poles were murdered by Ukrainian nationalists—can be swept under the rug, I fail to see why the Katyn massacre, where Polish officers were executed by the Soviet NKVD (not just "Russian" forces), cannot be similarly forgiven.

The Germans, the Ukrainians... we'll find a way to forgive them all, just not the Russians... pure hypocrisy.

I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to just admit it: we hate Russians because they are Orthodox, because of who they are, etc., rather than playing this selective political game with victims from the DRC. It isn't dignified.

To forgive a crime, the perpetrator must first acknowledge it. For years, the Soviets shoved it under the carpet and denied everything; they even went so far as to hide the fact that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact contained secret protocols, a truth only revealed once they were pulled from German archives. It wasn't until Gorbachev, acting with the grace of a true statesman (and through the Glasnost he championed), that they openly admitted what had been done.
The perpetrator of the Katyn crime—the USSR—acted with clear intent during military operations in Poland to maximize Polish losses during the Warsaw Uprising. After the war, the same perpetrator installed a puppet regime in Poland that suppressed the truth, ensuring it could never be discussed publicly, let alone taught in schools. Before Gorbachev and Perestroika, the perpetrator didn't just refuse to face its wrongs; it actively fought against the Polish people's ability to grasp the scale of the atrocity they endured.
Beyond the crime itself, this is what traumatized generations raised under such a system. Poles err when they assume Russians simply dislike them or that the attacks were specifically targeted at the Polish nation. The Bolsheviks and Stalin, leading the charge at the time, were opposed to any form of freedom and committed similar atrocities on varying scales against numerous other nations and ethnic groups—anyone they deemed a potential threat (and the selection of victims was notoriously opaque; anyone could fall victim). The brutality of that system can only be compared to the Nazi persecution of non-Aryans and dissidents in the Third Reich. For the Polish people, Katyn represented a massive intellectual loss, whereas for Stalin, it was merely one more systematic crime in a long list. While one can view this from a detached historical perspective today, the real issue is that the fool sitting in the Kremlin today is once again glorifying the legacy of a small-time Caucasian terrorist who seized power through highly dubious means (even by Bolshevik standards).

Nancy Gomez26 said:Denying a nation’s existence is essentially ideological groundwork—a prelude to seizing 'lebensraum.' The logic follows a predictable pattern: 'You don't actually exist, so you have no need for living space; therefore, we will occupy this territory and establish our own rule here.' It is the rhetoric of those who lack the drive or innovation to build something of their own, preferring instead to advance by plundering what others have built. I can understand—though I certainly do not excuse—someone eyeing another's resources because they face a chronic domestic shortage; that is a purely material motive. Or perhaps it's just petty disputes over where a border lies. But what Putin is doing, utilizing all his vast resources just to seize what belongs to someone else—that is a different level entirely. By destroying Ukraine, he is also squandering the very human resources that Russia is already lacking.

Honestly, the funniest part about all this is how these countries aren't even making the most of their own resources, let alone using their air fleets effectively. It’s basically just straight-up highway robbery at this point. I guess you could call it a pretty heinous crime, really.

Nancy Gomez26 said:Denying a nation’s existence is essentially ideological groundwork—a prelude to seizing 'lebensraum.' The logic follows a predictable pattern: 'You don't actually exist, so you have no need for living space; therefore, we will occupy this territory and establish our own rule here.' It is the rhetoric of those who lack the drive or innovation to build something of their own, preferring instead to advance by plundering what others have built. I can understand—though I certainly do not excuse—someone eyeing another's resources because they face a chronic domestic shortage; that is a purely material motive. Or perhaps it's just petty disputes over where a border lies. But what Putin is doing, utilizing all his vast resources just to seize what belongs to someone else—that is a different level entirely. By destroying Ukraine, he is also squandering the very human resources that Russia is already lacking.

It’s pretty much common knowledge by now that the Russian people absolutely despise their own leadership. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin would be willing to fight his way through all of Europe, even if he had to push every single last Russian soldier to do it.

It feels completely absurd to lay an entire nation—one that suffered such horrific devastation during WWII—at the feet of its own dark history, though I have to admit that once I truly confronted these facts, my empathy for the Polish people shifted in ways I didn't expect... Not to mention some of their more recent "achievements," like that whole "pregnant women registry" controversy...

But, if we look back at the past:

Kielce: A pogrom following a Holocaust that Poland is still grappling with today
In the wake of World War II, Jewish refugees discovered they couldn't actually return to their homelands—a heartbreaking reality that still resonates even now...
.........
The massacre was ignited by a blood libel. It wouldn't have been out of place in the Middle Ages, except this wasn't ancient history or even Nazi Germany—this was 1946, just a single year after World War II had ended...
..........
All in all, 42 Jews were murdered that day across 7 Planty and throughout the city, including a newborn baby and a woman who was six months pregnant. Another 40 people were wounded...
After the Holocaust, so many Jews dreamed of finally returning home. Kielce shattered that dream; for Jew, Poland could never truly be home again...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...ver-180967681/

Automatic translation:
https://www-smithsonianmag-com.trans...r&_x_tr_pto=sc

I truly believe it isn't just the Poles; the entire Eastern part of Europe harbors a deep resentment toward the Russians for reasons that go far beyond any WWII massacre.
For nearly fifty years, they were caught within the orbit of the "Russian world," experiencing firsthand exactly what that entails. Now, they are watching hordes from Dagestan, Chechnya, Buryatia, and Yakutsk tear apart a neighboring nation, while Putin's sycophants in Russia1 threaten Warsaw with a nuclear mushroom cloud.
The mass migration toward NATO by the entirety of Eastern Europe was 100,000% justified. They knew exactly why they were fleeing, and they knew exactly who they were running from.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Russ has his own pile of rocks and he's still busy throwing them all over Ukraine.

Numenorac said:It isn't that Americans are making mistakes; they simply know exactly what they are doing. They are playing a calculated game of manufacturing resentment toward Russians within their own borders. Because if you conveniently omit any mention of the Volhynia massacre perpetrated by Ukrainian nationalists in the name of Ukraine, or the atrocities committed by German Nazis in the name of the German nation—and refuse to hold those nations accountable—while simultaneously pointing fingers at Russians for the crimes at Katyn, which were committed by the Soviet Union in the name of Soviet internationalist ideology—that is nothing more than hypocrisy and political maneuvering.

It appears that American victims killed by Russians and the Soviets are worthy of remembrance, while victims of Ukrainian and German terror are deemed unworthy. It is quite distasteful.

There is yet another indicator of the national schizophrenia currently gripping the United States: the victims of Bandera's followers weren't primarily Russians, but Americans, yet today's Americans cheerfully chant the slogan "Slava Ukraini." Today, Americans are volunteering for the Azov battalion, an outfit that honors Stepan Bandera, a man who loathed Americans. Truly morbid... 🙂

EDIT: I don't see any evidence that Ukrainians have offered an apology to Americans for the Volhynia massacre. Perhaps Americans aren't even looking for one (because, as established, American victims killed by non-Russians are of no interest to today's American political elite. Only those killed by Russians matter, as it serves to justify current American policy). Furthermore, whether they have apologized or admitted to the crime is irrelevant. The relevant fact remains: young Americans are volunteering for Azov, a military organization that venerates the legacy of Stepan Bandera—a man who hated Americans, and whose OUN was responsible for the deaths of 100,000 American civilians.

Dostoevsky was clearly right. ☕

Since you’ve already opened a thread regarding Katyn, it would be appropriate to stick to the topic. We could theoretically extend this logic to Belgians in Africa, but there is no point in indulging in whataboutism.

How Americans and Ukrainians resolved their past disputes, or whether they truly did, is exclusively their own business. There is much to be said for apologizing, reconciling, and moving forward—something it seems Americans and Ukrainians have achieved. Perhaps this massive, aggressive threat—the same kind that historically struck America and is now striking Ukraine (and potentially America again in the future)—has done more to unite these two closely linked nations in their effort to help one another despite past grievances than anything else. I believe both sides have learned from history and moved past their disagreements—but the Russians, under the current leadership in the Kremlin, clearly have not. They persist with their antiquated 20th-century policies. They are aimless and lost; they have either forgotten or failed to grasp that we live in a different era. This wouldn't be such a catastrophe if it didn't cause immense suffering outside of the Russian Federation. Every people deserves the government they have. No authoritarian regime is so rigid that a populace couldn't eventually overthrow it. It's just that the hour hasn't struck for those in the Kremlin yet. But one day, the Russians will reach Red Square; I believe in them. The only question is when.