Unacceptable moderation on the Palestine thread - Bubimir

Will this thread actually become more readable, constructive, or high-quality if we just let people keep pulling terms like Nazi, fascist, war criminal, or Hitler’s disciples out of their personal arsenals?

It won't. People will just troll using those labels until the conversation loses any connection to the actual topic.

Someone brought up Ukraine—so what? We asked, and then we banned the mindless use of terms like Nazi or fascist. That kind of talk is much rarer now, which keeps the thread from devolving.

I don't get why it's so hard to stop using the insults we warned you about. This forum will collapse and the whole server will fall apart if someone doesn't finally use the term war criminal for a high-ranking official, whether they are Israeli or Palestinian. I truly don't understand.

rowdytiger13 said:How much longer?
I honestly think most people don't feel the need to throw around labels like fascist, Nazi, genocidal, or terrorist just to make a point.
I’m totally fine writing "Hamas" or "Hamas members" without adding "terrorist" in front of it, and I'm ready to hash that out with the other moderators if needed.
Whether that flies or not isn't entirely up to me anyway.

Here’s (yet) another example of how far this goes.

The rule states:

Glorifying or promoting Nazism or fascism, racist ideologies, or any ideology containing racist and xenophobic elements, as well as displaying symbols of such ideologies.

Look, you don't have to explicitly praise those things to promote them. Someone looking for it could easily find indirect examples all over this forum.

By banning specific labels used against certain politicians or groups, it implies those labels are actually worse than indirectly pushing fascism.

But they aren't.

It's just way EASIER to punish someone for using an epithet because they're blunt and short (like saying "terrorist" or "criminal"), making them easy targets for the rules.

Meanwhile, the stuff mentioned earlier—like subtly promoting aspects of fascism—is harder to pin down with a rule and sometimes even harder to spot, so it stays untouched.

Punishing "epithets" while letting the other stuff slide is just glaringly obvious.

Stop going after the "labels" and things won't look so messy.

First off, hello everyone!

To start things off: I want to offer my full support to rowdytiger13. I guess the man has nerves of steel navigating this discussion.

Secondly, if I recall correctly—it was maybe four years ago when I first stepped up as a moderator—some of the users in the Israel-Palestine threads (and I still see some of those names here, even if they're just greyed out 😁 ) gave me a similarly warm welcome to the mod team.

I'm not holding any grudges, but I do feel you were somewhat unfair to me back then, much like how you seem to be treating rowdytiger13 today.

Thirdly, Israel is a serious, established nation and a major global player. Hamas isn't even remotely in the same league. Honestly, the constant demands are getting a bit tiresome; if we're going to label Hamas as such, we can certainly refer to Israel in the same manner.

But that's just not how it works.

Maybe once Hamas actually defeats Israel—assuming they even intend to fight them or try to outmaneuver them politically—then perhaps they could demand the same level of respect accorded to established states.

This forum should be a space for free-thinking individuals to debate, rather than a battlefield for political propagandists.

I would suggest trying to act more like the former and less like the latter; if people did that, I don't think anyone would have an issue with rowdytiger13.

Just a friendly word of advice for rowdytiger13: perhaps it's best to step away from this argument. You've made your point clearly, and I suppose the Administration can take it from here. You've laid out your criteria, and people can either accept them or deal with the consequences.

Thanks for reading. I'm heading back to Ukraine now; compared to the atmosphere here, it feels like a peaceful land of flowers.

PL

slybison8 said:Like, third place? Israel is a heavy hitter, a totally established nation and a massive global player. Hamas isn't even in the same league. You guys are getting pretty old with these demands—if we're calling them Hamas, then fine, call Israel whatever you want.

It doesn't work that way.

If Hamas actually wants to take on Israel—whether they're trying to fight them physically or outmaneuver them politically—then maybe they can ask for the same level of respect given to actual sovereign states.

This forum is supposed to be a space for free thinkers to hash things out— not a playground for political propagandists looking for a fight.

...

Thanks for reading.

PL

Give me a break!👍

Honestly, I think I deserve a little credit for sitting through this entire "annual festival of hypocrisy" from start to finish.

rowdytiger13 said:Just statements like that?
I learned from some other PDF once that there is a massive distinction between:
"In my opinion, homosexuality is a disease!"
OR
"Homosexuality is a disease!"
The first one was allowed, but the second one definitely wasn't.
Now, try applying that logic to your own claim.

Your example doesn't have anything to do with terms like "war criminal" or "global terrorist." What you're talking about is an attempt at discrimination by generalizing a group of people without any evidence.

When we talk about a war criminal, there’s no "generalization" based on questionable criteria involved. You qualify a single individual or a specific policy based on evidence, definitions, and arguments that are perfectly clear in this instance. I think it should be obvious to everyone that when a user here writes "war criminal xy," they are expressing an opinion—they aren't speaking officially for the Government, the American people, or the International Court. Their reasoning simply shows how right or wrong they are. On this forum, we've called all sorts of current and former figures, entire nations, groups, and cultures criminals (without a verdict), and it was never an issue until someone brought up the Israeli president. That’s when things got sensitive, specifically because it hit a nerve with a certain moderator whose posts on this thread make it crystal clear that they are biased.

This bias, combined with setting precedents based on a moderator's personal feelings regarding a universal term or their qualification of a specific person—who, in this case, can hardly be qualified any other way given the mountain of evidence—creates a problem that goes far beyond this single incident. It undermines the entire moderation structure. It opens the door for other moderators to punish anyone who disagrees with them under the guise of "talking about things not proven in court." That just makes the whole existence of a forum absurd and severely restricts freedom of speech and how people express themselves.

Linda King said:I don't really have the energy to wade through all these long-winded dissertations—I just wanted to say something to ruggedwolf, Rioboss, and the rest of you on the forum. Just a heads-up: you’re going to get banned if you keep calling the Israeli Prime Minister a war criminal, and honestly, it looks like you guys are just itching to do exactly that.

You're posting a link like this:

WE demand that International Criminal Court charges Benjamin Netanyahu & Israel for War Crimes against Humanity

I’m seriously out here commenting on an article!

And you all—honestly, for such a bunch of "brilliant" minds—it’s surprising none of you thought of that. Seriously? If you actually cared, you could have bypassed the rules easily enough. But no, that's not even the point here—this isn't about the rules at all, but rather this blatant, personal attack directed at our moderator, rowdytiger13. It's just transparent, really... and honestly, it feels completely forced.

Honestly, does anyone actually take a second to reread their own posts before hitting send? Seriously, what are you even talking about??? What forum rules could we have possibly broken? I can call Netanyahu a villain and a war criminal—and I can back that up with solid arguments, which isn't exactly a difficult task—all without violating a single rule on this board. But, somehow, it becomes impossible for me to say that because rowdytiger13 is abusing his moderator powers. He’s twisting the site rules just to silence anyone whose reasoned arguments he doesn't like—mostly because he lacks the actual capacity to counter them with logic. Is that not the plain truth? His goal with this moderation is to forcibly impose political correctness and a "peacekeeping" tone regarding Israeli policy, which is way beyond anything he has the authority to do. It's just his way of weaponizing the rules—interpreting them however he wants—just so he can hand out bans to any opinion he finds inconvenient. 🤣 It’s not just about being stupid—it’s the cowardice that really gets me.

I’ve been using this American forum for practical advice for years now. Lately, the whole Israel-Palestine conflict has become so heated and messy that even someone as passive as me felt the urge to jump in and write a few posts. Out of pure curiosity, I’ve spent a lot of time browsing serious international forums on this topic, and honestly, they all seem to devolve into nothing but insults and name-calling directed at both sides—labels like Nazi, terrorist, Arab fascist, Zionist fascist, child killer, and so on.
I actually think this thread about Bubimir should probably be shut down right now for a few reasons.
1. The debate is still very much alive. While there is plenty of propaganda floating around, there are also meaningful posts here—something you just won't find anywhere else on this subject.
2. Bubimir doesn't hide his views. Personally, I prefer that over him pretending to be neutral and then actively stalling the discussion by getting hit with moderation bans. He did issue a warning before being sanctioned for using the term war criminal, though. It shouldn't be an issue to simply say, "I believe Netanyahu is a war criminal."
3. Look, let's be real: we don't live in a world of fair play. All it takes is one sensitive person to go to other sites and claim this forum is antisemitic, and suddenly the thread will either be "purged" or wiped out entirely. Even heavyweights like Finkelshtein or powerful figures like Obama haven't been able to escape that label, so let's not hold our breath for absolute freedom of speech or total equality in this specific thread. Don't blame the forum itself for how things work. We either have pro-Israel moderators or we have none at all, and that's just the reality we have to accept.

So, nothing new on the PZK boards. When people run out of actual arguments, they just resort to attacking the moderators, who honestly do a fantastic job keeping things running.
I’ve got nothing but respect and support for PL and rowdytiger13. Without them, this whole discussion about Israel and Palestine would just turn into a total fan club for Hamas terrorists.
No one here is being accused of any war crimes. Israel is a sovereign nation with every right to defend itself, and Mr. Netanyahu is the head of the Israeli government. The US is part of NATO and follows the lead of our close allies.
Because of that, both the US and other EU members recognize Israel's right to self-defense. Besides, Hamas is a terrorist organization. For Israelis, Zionism is what the Republican Party was back in the early 90s.
Denying the very existence of a sovereign state like Israel is a violation of international law—and that’s punishable too.
A few users, specifically Rioboss and Nancy Wood6, seem hell-bent on using force to push certain moderators out just so they can run wild and bring total anarchy to the forum.
First they got Roko. Now it’s rowdytiger13’s turn, then probably PL.
How much further is this going to go???

granitefalcon26 said:So, nothing new on this board. When people run out of actual arguments, they just go after the moderators, who are honestly doing a great job keeping things orderly.
I have my full support and respect for PL and rowdytiger13. Without them, this discussion about Israel and Palestine would just turn into a cheerleading squad for Hamas terrorists.
No one here is being accused of any war crimes. Israel is a sovereign nation with a fundamental right to defend itself, and Mr. Netanyahu is the Prime Minister of Israel. The US is a key part of NATO and follows the lead of our closest allies.
Because of that, both the US and other EU members recognize Israel's right to self-defense. Hamas is a terrorist organization. For Israelis, Zionism is what the Republican Party was back in the early 90s for Americans.
Denying the very existence of a recognized international state like Israel is a violation of international law—and that’s punishable too.
Certain users, like Rioboss and Nancy Wood6, seem intent on using force to push certain moderators out just so they can run wild and bring total anarchy to this forum.
First Roko was removed. Now it's rowdytiger13's turn, then maybe PL.
How far does this go?

This forum isn't some echo chamber for US foreign policy; it's a place for debate. Rioboss and Nancy Wood6 always back up their claims with logic, whereas you're just writing manifestos or, at best, throwing out personal opinions. I won't bother commenting on your praise for Israel and Zionism here, because that's not what this space is for.

Edward Thompson5 said:Look, people—we aren't living in some idealized world of fair play. It only takes one sensitive soul to cry foul and label this entire forum antisemitic based on what they see elsewhere. Once that happens, the thread gets "purged," if it isn't nuked entirely. Even giants like Finkelstein or powerful figures like Obama couldn't escape that particular label, so don't go expecting freedom of speech or true equality in this specific discussion. And don't blame the site for it. We either end up with pro-Israel moderators or we get nothing at all—that’s just the reality we have to accept.

Don't give me that crap. Their military plays itself a little too bloody again—once upon a time, and again now—and suddenly, if anyone dares to point out that we're dealing with absolute lunatics devoid of any morality, honor, or restraint, they're branded an antisemite. Right?
(Their propaganda machine is still unbeatable; give it up for the bots. 👍)
People aren't stupid. There is more than enough material available across the internet these days for anyone to reach their own conclusions about which side deserves condemnation.
By the way, the international community also deserves condemnation for blessing this slaughter of civilians. If they actually cared about doing good, they would have facilitated a humanitarian evacuation before they started on, how should I put it... "clearing out Hamas infrastructure."
It is absolutely shameful what the current collective conscience is willing to protect. Truly shameful.

William Bennett53 said:Alright, this is veering way too far into the Israel-Palestine conflict instead of actually discussing thread moderation, and it's just not going to fly.
The points have been made, so if there’s nothing else left to say on the topic, I suggest we wait for the higher-ups here to wrap things up...

I've got a few thoughts to add...

First off, how is someone who was banned for accusing people of being paid trolls allowed to keep posting on this exact same thread using a clone account? Even if their main handle is blocked, it still happens...

Second, what is even the point of a poll if people can keep voting and commenting right after a ban? It makes the whole thing feel pointless...

Third, Hamas isn't a terrorist organization, though its military wing is. That's the official stance for the EU, which we are part of...

One more thing regarding the poll.

There are quite a few people from Canada on this thread. Regardless of whether they're atheists or not, they're pretty much all against Israel. So, how realistic is this survey really? And does it even make sense to have someone in charge—someone who actually approved the poll—answering it?
That sounds harsh, I know. But someone has to say it, even if it means getting a strike 😁. We can't just play dumb forever.
you can fool me once ....

That's all.
I tried to provide some broader context here. If you need any clarification, I'm right here.

I’m pretty much signing off on everything Sam Alvarez4 said. I tend to lurk quite a bit in various threads, following along for a long time without actually posting anything. But honestly, I don't think I've ever seen such a massive wave of cloning—or if I should use the more politically correct term, "this many newcomers to the forum." And yeah, let's do a poll.

Sam Alvarez4 said:I have a few extra points.

First off, how can someone who was banned from this thread over accusations of being some kind of forum mercenary just show up again using a clone account? Especially since their original handle is still banned.

Second, what’s even the point of the poll if people are still posting and voting on the same thread after being banned? It makes the whole survey feel pointless.

Third, Hamas isn't considered a terrorist organization, though its military wing certainly is. That's the official stance for the EU, which we are part of.

I have questions too.

First: did you actually report those inappropriate posts using the flag icon when you had those suspicions???
If you did, I must have missed it. If you don't mind, could you do it again? You can send me a PM. If not, please report them so we can see what's going on.

Second: the poll is just a poll. Since it's anonymous, there's no way for me to know if someone voted twice using an original and a clone account.

Third: this is PŽK, so political debate isn't exactly... well, you know.

Sorry if this isn't quite the right spot for what I'm about to say, but I honestly just got drawn in by the OP's username and what they wrote—it actually stuck with me from that thread about Canada, where this same user keeps putting down Americans of Canada whenever they get the chance. So, I guess I'm just wondering... why is it okay to let people talk down to Americans of Canada like that?
Isn't it basically fascism or racism to argue that Americans in Canada, being one of the constituent peoples there, shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else in the country?

Charles Fox10 said:I have a quick question...

First off: did you report those inappropriate posts using the flag icon? No doubt about it???
If you already did, I must have missed it! If you don't mind, maybe do it again or just shoot me a DM... if not, please report them and we'll see how things go.

Of course I reported them!
There's zero doubt here. This isn't even the first time. Last time, the guy just made a whole new profile right after getting banned and kept posting on the same thread...
What kind of message does that send to the rest of us? 🙂

Charles Fox10 said:Second: an anonymous poll is just a poll, so how would you even know if someone voted with their main account and then again with a clone??

I didn't say anyone was voting with both their main and a clone... + though I really hope people can't vote once their main account is banned. That would be a total joke! I just meant that people keep voting even when they're banned from the thread!

My actual point was: how many clones do the non-banned users have, and how often are they voting like that?

Basically, this poll is pointless. But hey, I mentioned that at the very start of the thread...
And specifically that question: "in this conflict?" (really?!). Which one? 🙂 This conflict hasn't just started yesterday, for goodness sake!

Charles Fox10 said:Third: this is the PŽK, so political debate isn't exactly......

This isn't some political debate at all.
I was just stating facts regarding the Hamas military wing, the EU, and the US as an ally... We should stick to the facts. Simple as that.

So, @Charles Fox10/">@@Charles Fox10, I hope that answers everything!

P.S. @rowdytiger13/">@@rowdytiger13, much respect for the patience shown in this thread. He stayed dignified despite all the ad hominem attacks. May his harvest be plentiful and his wine always sweet!🙂

Sam Alvarez4 said:Reported, obviously!
No doubt about it. This isn't the first time either. Last time, someone just made a new profile right after being banned and kept posting in the same thread.
What kind of message does that send to the rest of us? 🙂

I didn't say anyone voted using their original account + along with a clone (by the way, I hope you can't vote if the original account is banned. That would be a real farce). I said people vote even when they're banned from the thread!

My question was: how many clones do those who aren't banned have, and how many times have they voted like that?

In short, the poll is pointless. But I wrote that at the very beginning of the thread.
Especially the part asking: "in this conflict?" (sic!). Which one? 🙂 This conflict didn't just start yesterday, for heaven's sake!

It isn't some political debate.
I simply stated facts regarding the military wing of Hamas, the EU, and the US as an ally. We should stick to the facts. Simple as that.

So, @Charles Fox10/">@@Charles Fox10, I hope that answers everything.

PS: @rowdytiger13/">@@rowdytiger13, respect to him for his patience here. Despite the ad hominem attacks, he stayed dignified. May his vines be heavy with grapes and his wine always be good. 🙂

You tried, but I'm not satisfied.😁

Look, you might be convinced someone is a clone, but we have to be absolutely certain. That’s why tracking clones takes longer than expected, and there's no easy answer to the question other than the classic: using a clone isn't against the rules, but using one while your main nick is banned definitely is—though I think we all know that.

Reporting it or not doesn't matter, because a report alone doesn't give me enough info to actually help anything.

The poll is what it is. I agree it's a bit useless, but since nobody can vote on it anymore, it doesn't matter. As for deleting it, I personally don't see the point—not for any special reason, just let it sit until the thread hits its technical limit. Deleting things on a server like this doesn't seem particularly smart, judging by a circus I once pulled in a similar situation.

Yes, politics is part of PŽK. Discussing whether Hamas is a terrorist organization or just its military wing is exactly what this thread is for.