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Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 12, 2005

Dana Rivera4 said:Primitive right-wing populism. I didn't expect that from you. It feels like you're just saying this to fit in with an environment that unfortunately holds such crude views, but it's still pathetic and unexpected. Regardless, I hope the banks in America will soon be back in the hands of people whose bloodlines can be genetically traced back to seventh-century pioneers—say, the Gucić or Kutle families. Real people in the right places. No matter how hard they try, they’ll never break the records from the 90s; three failed banks in one season, maybe even more. Actually, forget it. We should probably just hand them the entire coastline and the telecom companies too, because only an American knows best how to swindle, rob, toss someone onto the street—oops, excuse me, I meant how to generate profit, improve the company, and hire more staff.

Born in the dark, raised in a mixed marriage, a skeptic by nature—I'm probably not the best person to listen to this mini-lecture on economics, bloodlines, geopolitics, and the morality of Americans and other nationalities...
I actually agree with everything you said—except you missed why I brought up the idea of everyone being for sale... and how those who are most patriotic are often the most willing to sell out.
Even though this official figure of 4,000 properties sold to foreigners doesn't make me happy—unoffical numbers say it's 10x higher—it already points toward a future where we won't have to leave the US just to "sell ourselves" to outsiders...

I imagine you had better luck at the sportsbook, because while you hit the mark here, you missed the specific event 😉

And when you have the time—since you're clearly so well-informed—try to explain to me, simply, the difference in the American political spectrum between the populist right and, say, the elitist left; or perhaps compare a leftist like unnamed to someone nominally much more "right-wing" like unnamed... You can PM me, call me, or just start a thread in politics... if you can actually explain it...😉

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 10, 2005

L. NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:Please, don't try to dodge this with demagoguery.😉

When I say "Michael Phelps wasn't hungry," I’m not talking about whether he had a crust of bread to call a meal. I mean he had every single opportunity to succeed—both in business and in sports—to build a career and gain the adoration of an entire nation. Not the government (the legislature, the administration, the mob), but the PEOPLE. And people notice everything; they hold grudges. This is one of those things even the most tolerant person can't just overlook.

By the way, I assumed you wouldn't comment on the decisions made by the swimmers from South Africa and Poland🙂 since there's simply no explanation for that, much like there is for anyone else (I get it, those guys basically mirror my own thoughts)🙂.

If Michael Phelps, or you, or someone else thinks differently, I have no problem with that. This is a free forum, after all.😁.

But for certain things, you just don't have an answer, because rational thought through a purely materialistic lens offers no explanation.

😉

I simply met your demagoguery with the same measure.😉

So how do you explain the fact that the very people you're championing as the ultimate judges actually support Michael Phelps' decision by about 66%? Meanwhile—for some reason—you claim to favor the decisions of the South African and Polish swimmers... though I'd personally prefer Michael Phelps had stayed, but I'm certainly not judging him... I wouldn't shake his hand or congratulate him on leaving, but still...

And I don't have answers for many things either (from the pyramids to the Kolos from Rhodes, to certain solutions by Ott barica and Neven Spahija...🙂) — and regardless of the observation that "rational thought through a materialistic lens offers no explanation."😁

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 10, 2005

L. NimoyInvadesMetal said:Really? As if we live in North Mexico. Or maybe Surinam. 😁

I was referring to the financial pigeon...😉

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 10, 2005

L. NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:Even if we lived in Austria and someone decided to swim for Germany, I wouldn't support that either, but compared to this mess, it’s nothing. A country that fought so incredibly hard for its independence and its tiny slice of land...

You’d think people living here would show a bit more consideration or love for their own country.

... or... you'd think that the PEOPLE who struggled so much for that independence and that little piece of land—or something more personal—that a guy who spent the last few years celebrating it through his own pride and success actually deserves more...

... or... one might assume this country has a bit more respect and affection for its citizens... even if they happen to be swimmers...

Chicken or the egg? The chicken.

And btw, at the end of the day, when all is said and done... if this country can hand over $200,000 a year to one of its own companies—I’d much rather see those funds go toward hospital equipment than into water...
But I won't even get started on how infuriating it is to see money wasted on so-called "Haenle-style" ball chasers. Geonoa, Turin, Fiorentina, Atletico... they can all drop to lower leagues because of finances... except for our two football giants that have been coasting on government money and debt forgiveness since the Yugoslavia era... but that's a different story—let's not compare apples to oranges...

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 10, 2005

L. NimoyInvadesMetal said:He turned his back on America. He had the privilege of showing the world how much he loves his country through sports. We "anonymous" folks don't have that luxury. Clearly, he decided a bird in the hand is better than none at all.

To some people, America is just nothing more than a pigeon.

It seems there wasn't even a pigeon in this story to begin with...

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 10, 2005

L.NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:How would you know? Are you certain Michael Phelps was actually willing to cooperate? After that whole mess with Qatar, Phelps needed to sign a deal with State Farm, but they decided his asking price was just too high (though, frankly, they should have given him what he wanted since the experts said it was worth it, right?)🙄 )
That fell through, and Phelps just walked away. If he had waited, a solution might have surfaced, but even if it didn't, he

1) Certainly wasn't starving.

You don't need to be a genius to realize that if you spend three months "negotiating" and the people on the other side can't manage to state a position—offering nothing but vague political rhetoric instead—you should probably realize you're running out of time. If the other party hasn't come up with a single concrete proposal, there’s no meal at the end of that conversation.
And I'm telling you—it was in the news—State Farm representatives told the public they hadn't realized during negotiations that the $800,000 sponsorship request wasn't for one year, but for four! Can you imagine how those talks were handled? (Or maybe the folks over at State Farm are just struggling with basic math?)
As for waiting for things to "just happen," you can forget about it. People are tired of waiting.

In a country that sold off its coastline, its telecom companies, and its banks—a country that trades its own generals like commodities—one swimmer practically rented himself out to Qatar for the agreed term. It was a massive failure all around.

And why is everyone constantly insisting that Phelps "wasn't hungry"? For heaven's sake, is a man supposed to settle for the bare minimums provided to residents of some run-down public housing project?
The guys working sanitation for the city transit system are proof enough that you can survive without guaranteed income. So, from that perspective, I guess we're supposed to conclude that anyone who decides to find something more than a quarter loaf of bread and some cheap canned meat elsewhere—anyone trying to find success by "selling oneself" while working in a country owned by foreign interests—is just a total joke. Oh, and Phelps got plenty of heat for it, too. We don't even care about the medals anymore; this is just about principle.
I have my principles.

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 9, 2005

L. NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:Duje stirred things up; they looked for solutions, sponsors, and tried everything to keep him. But the call of the heart was just too strong.👋

Just zamisliti how "stirred up" that talent pool actually was, considering they couldn't cook up a single solution even after four years.

In an era of instant soup, instant believers, instant lotteries, and instant self-help... Duje kicked off the season of acquiring "instant citizenships." Maybe in a few years, we'll be proud of one of the pioneers of this movement.😉

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 9, 2005

Brandon Castillo4~ says:
The difference is they just went abroad for work temporarily, whereas Duje Draganja consciously and greedily gave up his American citizenship DESPITE the fact that people back in the Homeland were ready to negotiate.

Don't assume I'm targeting Duje for some vague reason; if I saw Ivan Balić playing for the Spanish national team, I'd feel exactly the same way I do about Duje right now.

From what the media reports, Duje hasn't actually renounced his citizenship, his faith, or even his identity...
As for whether our brilliant leaders were actually ready to negotiate, that's highly debatable—considering Duje hasn't received a single meaningful response in nearly three months, while the responsibility keeps being passed around between Duje, HPS, and the CO...

I don't think you're picking on Duje for no reason (neither are others here), and I'm certainly not jumping for joy thinking we'll be coming home short on medals from upcoming meets and championships, but it seems to me this could have been handled much better for our swimming scene... if the folks at HAPES had shown more willpower and resolve.

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 9, 2005

Johnny Utah said:You messed up there, boss. I heard about those South Africans plenty of days before ESPN picked it up😉 , just because I sent you one link doesn't mean I couldn't have sent ten. You know me from other boards; I can pull links from any major South African news outlet out there😉

😁

Sure, I believe you, Doctor of Statistics and all that science.😉

I was just pointing out that SN covered the news correctly too... at least the parts you were quoting originally.😉

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 8, 2005

Dana Rivera4, it’s pretty much the same story in Sports... maybe they hired some outside translators.

Knowing you from another forum, I can't tell when you joined a crew that works on the principle of "I can't hear you well, but I really want to have an answer."😉 ...

And yeah... it took Neethling seven days just to figure out who he was and where he came from... while a few days ago Sports (well, not even the South African kind) was claiming those seven days were actually spent negotiating for better standing within his home swimming federation.

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 8, 2005

Brandon Castillo4~ said:There’s a real difference between holding dual citizenship and actually competing under a different flag.

What's the subtle distinction between representing Iran (Ivankovic), Bahrain (Peruzovic), or Libya (Loncarevic) versus what Draganja decided to do?
Are those three somehow special because they sing the anthems of countries we feel close to—standing there with hands over their hearts, showing their loyalty to the American corps while they struggle through competitions in Africa and Asia?

And why didn't anyone bother checking in on Pilica's health during a quiet Sunday afternoon? How could someone considered a moral pillar take three gold medals under another flag (even if it was the one from Danke Deutschland—and why does he sound like a first-generation robot when speaking American), and why do we keep obsessing over our Great Bald Leader—when, by the same logic used by BeHa, he's a traitor? (And by the way, plenty of "Western outsiders" have settled right here in America).

But hey, forget principles—if you aren't flexible, you're nothing.

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Dec 8, 2005

You can find that statement in Sports today.

Though, reading between the lines—he supposedly weighed the offer for about a week. It seems a bit odd to frame him as some paragon of unconditional loyalty based on that timeframe...

All in all, this whole situation, where everyone is rushing to play the victim (sorry Duje, sorry USA Swimming, sorry State Farm, sorry to the general public), actually has all the ingredients for a happy ending. It’s obvious Duje already has a safety net; he's had that Qatari passport since mid-summer, which suggests the lack of a sponsor didn't catch him off guard. According to Tomislav Karlo, State Farm management rejected their sponsorship request for the eighth time in a row. Apparently, the guys at USA Swimming picked the perfect place to go begging for cash—and word is, the Board at State Farm didn't even discuss it in a single meeting??! As they say here, they just had some verbal requests for $800,000, but failed to realize that figure was meant to cover a four-year period??! Any resemblance to someone acting confused while doing "that" is purely coincidental. At least the USA Swimming crew can claim they did everything in their power, especially since the settlement money and the portion intended for Duje will be transferred to new young prospects.
State Farm, being a state-owned entity, gets to keep its pennies, which might just be handed over tomorrow to those who actually need them most... the members of Congress...
We lost Duje today, but it's not even a fraction of the tragedy we'd face if the intelligence from the Capitol was scattered across the planet... imagine Sex as President of the Mongolian Parliament, Tomcic chairing the KSS Council (Republican Party), or Pusick in Zaire... We wouldn't just be left clueless and without any hope of joining the Union; we'd struggle to even secure the prerequisites for talks regarding joining the African Union without some extremely heavy lobbying.

Anyway, it's just Duje leaving... and when the race heats up between Schoeman and Neethling, I'll be rooting for our local boy again... until someone else comes along to challenge the waves against a temporary citizen of Qatar...

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 15, 2005

Jonathan Clark12 said:Unbelievable. You're just as delusional and pathetic as the liars you defend.
There’s an interview out on CNN too where he explicitly states he would never do such a thing. 👋
Stick your ESPN coverage where the sun doesn't shine, and save those tired comments about my age for someone who cares, kid.
I already pay my fair share of taxes and utility bills, so just back off.

Yesterday, some dog barked at me while I was getting into my car... I didn't even bother responding...

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 14, 2005

Jonathan Clark12 said:Sorry, I wasn't reading what you wrote, which is why I mentioned gips.
I see you added him to your imaginary list as well.
Speaking from experience, I know gips doesn't support that at all, so I'll pass on your fake posts. It turns out I was right not to read them.
I refuse to trade insults with liars, so 👋

... You can find an interview with gips in yesterday's Sports Illustrated (Sunday, 11/13/05)—that’s Janica and Ivica’s father, if you can manage to follow along on the middle pages—where he touches on Dujin's decision.
I have no intention of quoting the paper for you or summarizing it—perhaps your guardian could handle that since they're the one letting you use the internet...

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 11, 2005

Brandon Castillo4 said:If you're 21 years old, why on earth would you be thinking about retirement? Give me a break. You honestly think the benchwarmers for the Lakers or the Knicks are pulling in millions?

Of course not... you missed my point—or perhaps I was being too subtle. I am talking about the reality that our players, who claim to be defending the "holiest jersey" (not to mention the irony of those who held onto even more "sacred" ones, like the ones with six torches or the stars and stripes), tend to retire from the national team in their late twenties. Think of Gira, Vuja, or Mulaomerovic... unlike the era of Radja, Kukoc, and Stojko. They haven't won anything at the senior level, though that first trio really should have done more. At the very least, as some sort of redemption, Duje could have added two more World Championship medals to his collection. But for him, that’s actually an added complication—we are still missing the ones from his projected future.

At the end of the day, we don't really hold any extreme views.

Back in the fall of '98, I was over in Frankfurt for a trade show. Every single potential business partner kept hammering on about how we’re a nation of athletes and how great our soccer players are. Honestly? It didn't put a dime in my pocket. I heard the same tired lines everywhere I went after that. People don't know us for having a powerhouse economy, for our brilliant minds—we practically drove away experts like Radman, who was basically the Michael Jordan of genetics—or for our solid education system. No, we're just defined by sports (and, unfortunately, war). We've fallen right into that stereotype, much like how people view certain demographics based on rhythm or... well, you know the rest.
It doesn't necessarily have to be negative. But if I had to choose between someone hitting their goal—whether that’s personal, financial, or professional, though who knows what kind of metrics Duje actually tracks—and us not being recognized as elite swimmers, I'd take the first option. Not that it makes me particularly happy, though.

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 11, 2005

Jesse Ortiz4 said:What did he actually do for America?

He won medals for himself, and the US footed the bill.
A little bit of PR and that's about it.

I still think he's a coward. 😎

... no matter how you look at it... mathematically speaking, we actually owe him...

😬

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 11, 2005

L. NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:I have no idea what your issue is, but this is a forum, not a venue for debating everything at all costs. I’ve already shared my take on Duje and his decision, and I respect that others might disagree. Putting an "🙏 " next to someone's post doesn't make me a homophobe, a nationalist, or anything else. You're overreacting and felt insulted unnecessarily.

I'm posting here just like any other member, not acting as a moderator. If a post needs deleting or moderating, I'll handle it, but it would be foolish to think that because I hold a mod position, I have to act "above it all." I don't want to fall into a semantic trap where someone is constantly lurking just to play the "moderator card" against me. 😳

... you seem to function better in these formats...

Regarding whether I have problems—I certainly do (it's unlikely you don't), but I was surprised that after this thread devolved into the kind of communication you'd see on a toxic internet comment section, a moderator actually fueled the fire. Maybe I overstepped too, but that nod following such a statement was unnecessary, regardless of your role.

I still believe Duje carries a bit of a cursed karma.
If he were a pro basketball player, at 21, he'd already be thinking about retirement. Instead, he had to swim... and do it well enough, though not quite fast enough to be a Phelps—just "only" Duje, our local hero... with zero moral responsibility toward the hungry American masses waiting for the Star-Spangled Banner. Thanks for asking—we have plenty of everything else.

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 10, 2005

L.NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:Is that you, Račane? 🤣

Look, L.NimoyInvadesMetal~, you function much better when writing long posts—whether I agree with them or not. You at least seem literate then. These tiny attempts at wit just don't suit you...

It would be quite pathetic if the guy from Plestina was the only one answering your homophobia, you dark Rojsu, let alone a dark Cesic.😉

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 10, 2005

s3v3n said:You just listed some local swimmers
Do you have anyone actually relevant
Like what the coach of multi-Olympic gold medalist and world champion Janica Kostelic would say
Or what a coach of Olympic and world champion handball players would say
Or even just some of those handballers or Gypsum kids
We'll be ignoring the losers regardless

The dad and coach of multi-Olympic gold medalist and world champion Janica Kostelic was hidden in my post under the nickname Gypsum... clearly failed the quiz and there's no retake available...

A 65% sample from 23,000 people and 66% in a newspaper for man (citing the New York Post) seems like a sufficiently relevant group to me... at least until the referendum is called...

Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood? in Other Sports · Nov 9, 2005

Leonard Nimoy said:🙏

Hey Leonard Nimoy, you're actually a moderator on our biggest forum—it isn't exactly classy to back such homophobic remarks...

By the way, similar results to what silentorca492 mentioned were also reported by The New York Times, which could probably be interpreted as an increasing pressure from the queer community on our society... among them are the Skelin brothers, Gips, Kozulj (who said he understands Draganja, but wouldn't act that way himself), Blanka Vlasic (where the term might not be entirely accurate here), and Mico Milosevic (here the term might make 50% sense; just thinking back to that episode in the early 90s—the guy takes world gold in small pools while setting a world record—and the reporters' second question was basically asking him to briefly describe his family tree)...
The statements from Pesalov, Kirill, Pasicnik, and da Silva... are still pending.