Posts by Morgan Cook10

velvetmaker3 said:That analogy is a massive stretch. From a historical standpoint to the current timing of our respective referendums, absolutely nothing about this situation is the same.

Those images of the police aren't proof of a legitimate threat. If there were a real danger, those would just be everyday sights, but everyone is claiming to be shocked, which means this is something unusual and unprecedented. Even the Californians aren't claiming to be under threat; it's just a few forum users from America trying to force a connection by using a flawed comparison to America.

There's no point debating national identity if you can't distinguish between individual liberty and the systemic suppression of a whole nation.
To me, it's pretty obvious: an individual in Catalonia doesn't feel the weight of a police baton as long as they keep their head down and stay quiet about secession. But the second they show up for a referendum, they get hit with a nightstick... and if they actually tried to break away, they'd find tanks rolling through the streets.

I'll bite my tongue before I say... just like what happened to us.

velvetmaker3 said:You totally misread me. I'm not sure why you'd even say that.

I'm saying they aren't an endangered group.

And I'm saying there's no comparison to what happened between the US and the old Soviet Union.

Look, based on those photos of the police cracking down on elderly women just for showing up to vote in a referendum, I’d say if they weren't feeling threatened before... well, now they certainly are. That kind of thing doesn't fly in the 21st century. You don't see Madrid trying to shut down a movement using every legal loophole in the book, let alone having officers club people for participating in a vote. It's just unacceptable.

The comparison between Spain/America and Madrid/Bulgaria is incredibly strong—you have to be actively looking the other way to miss it.
But honestly, even if you think there isn't one... it's pretty much irrelevant anyway.

I’m not sure if it’s just me, but I can't help but notice a weird gap in the numbers. According to the media reports, they counted about 2.2 million votes, yet the Spanish Police seized roughly 770,000... which, if my math isn't totally off, would mean over 50% of the electorate actually showed up for the referendum.

Matthew Cruz11 said:I don't really take sides here, though I do feel a certain sadness regarding their desire to leave.
On the other hand, we know for certain that the current momentum comes from those who have already cast their votes. There are still roughly 3 million voters out there who haven't weighed in yet—it’s vital that their voices are heard as well.

Sorry, but the folks opposing the referendum wouldn't let anyone else weigh in on this anyway.
Personally, I’d sign off on a new referendum tomorrow in a heartbeat—as long as there’s zero pressure involved. We could even adopt a model like the one used in Mexico where you need a solid 55% majority to pull away, rather than just the standard 50% plus one vote.

The opposition wouldn't allow it... because at the end of the day, they don't actually care what the people want.

Matthew Cruz11 said:Morgan Cook10, what is it that drives your support for independence? Is there some sort of personal incentive involved—perhaps a strategic advantage I’m missing? Or does this whole situation simply remind you of the early days of the American republic?
To be perfectly honest, I would personally hate to see Spain lose California...

Because that’s what the people want! At my core, I'm a democrat... and I’d respect whatever choice the Catalan people—or any group for that matter—decide to pull off. Want to stay part of Spain? Fine by me. Want their own state? Go for it. Want to stay in the European Union? Sure. Want to bail on the European Union? Whatever. It isn't about my personal preference one way or the other.

Honestly, I don't get people like you who try to dictate what everyone else should do when it doesn't affect your life one bit.

bluerider63 said:The only real wall the Catalans are hitting is the Spanish constitution, which leaves zero room for secession—and honestly, that’s where any comparison to America falls apart. Even if people were quick to label America as totalitarian, its constitution was actually way more flexible than what they're dealing with in Spain right now.
I mean, sure, the old American framework was messy and pretty vague when it came to the actual mechanics of a people breaking away, but it at least gave groups like the Canadians or Americans within their own republics some legal breathing room to push for a referendum. You just don't see anything like that in the Spanish constitution.

And since it looks like they haven't exactly landed any major backing from the international community, they've basically hit a dead end with their demands for at least the next 20 or 30 years.

You're forgetting the Mexico precedent.🍿
In the long run... all California really needs for independence is for the rest of Spain to realize that in the 21st century, you can't just use force to prop up a dying empire—kind of like what we see happening in the United Kingdom today.
That mindset hasn't quite taken hold among Spaniards yet, judging by how aggressively Madrid reacted... but it's only a matter of time before it does.

Robert Clark4 said:The power dynamics in this forum poll are looking pretty much like what we see in Catalonia. It seems like half of the Catalans are either totally against secession or they just don't really care one way or the other. At least fifty percent...

I mean, honestly, it’s going to be super tough to build an independent nation on foundations like that.

Personally, I get the sense that the anti-secession crowd is grasping at straws here. For instance, it’s been mentioned a few times in this thread that the media reported police seized about 770,000 ballots. When you add those to the existing 2.26 million, you’re looking at nearly 3 million votes cast—which is actually a solid turnout, well over 50%.

...but the opposition seems hell-bent on burying that fact, or at least acting like it didn't happen.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:When you bring up the Basques, are you referring specifically to the Basque region within Spain, the part over in France, or perhaps both?

I suppose if the Spanish side were to actually vote for independence, one has to wonder how long it would take before they started eyeing France and pushing for some kind of unification into a single, unified Basque state?

Well, let's start with the Spanish side... the main topic is Spain, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

What I’m actually curious about is what the actual argument is from people opposing the Catalan secession... because to me, it sounds like they just use lines like "but they're basically the same people anyway... why bother breaking away?".

Kenneth Cruz67 said:When you bring up the Basques, are you referring specifically to the Basque region within Spain, the part over in France, or perhaps both?

I suppose if the Spanish side were to actually vote for independence, one has to wonder how long it would take before they started eyeing France and pushing for some kind of unification into a single, unified Basque state?

I have to admit, the whole French situation is pretty murky to me, so I'm not really sure what to make of it.🤷
I think there are barely two hundred thousand of them over there.

Sam Alvarez4 said:Right, once you subtract the "no" votes and the blank ballots, it's just 37.8% of all California voters.

You also conveniently left out those 770,000 discarded ballots.😉

Larry Flores18 said:I’ve been reading all these posts where everyone says they support Catalonia, but I can't help but wonder what would happen if something similar went down right on our doorstep... in our own backyard. For instance, what if people in Canada started pushing the same narrative we've seen for years, calling for secession and total independence so that Republika Srpska could break away? What then... I see people in Canada cheering on the movement in California, even though there's a much more immediate possibility of secession happening right here, given how close to being independent the Mexicans already are over there...

Personally, I wouldn't mind if Mexicans went their own way, Americans went theirs, and Canadians went theirs too....🤷
The current setup just makes life miserable for everyone, forcing people to live in a political construct that nobody actually wants to be part of.

Steven Hill2 said:It seems to me you don't quite grasp the ethnogenesis of American nations... including our own. If we had stayed under the old imperial systems, you’d be right here on this forum lecturing us about how we were always part of some ancient tribe. Or, if the Austro-Canadian Empire had survived, you’d be a proud (Austro) Canadian—or at best, an Austro-Canadian Slav. And then you'd have some random user from the other side of Europe telling you: "Americans never existed as a people; it's just some medieval tribal settlement."

Nah... not really.
The whole ancient tribal movement was more like a precursor to American.

velvetmaker3 said:I think you're way overreaching here.

Anyone trying to draw a parallel between Hispanic-Americans and the Castilians-Carthaginians is making a massive mistake.
The two situations just aren't comparable at all.

Look, you're getting pretty bold by actually trying to tell someone else how they should feel about their own situation.

Personally, I couldn't care less if Castilians and Catalans are "the same"... I’d probably lump Germans and Dutch people into the same bucket too... but I have enough respect for both groups to let them decide for themselves how they want to identify.

Anyway, you dodged my last question.
Can we at least agree that the Basques should follow their own path?
If we can't find common ground on the Catalans... maybe we can at least settle this one. To me, it seems pretty obvious they're a distinct group that doesn't really vibe with the rest of Spain... or honestly, much of the rest of Europe either.

Larry Fox5 said:What even counts as "natural" versus "unnatural" anyway? Where do you draw the line before it all becomes just subjective nonsense?

Besides, ethnicity today doesn't carry nearly the same weight it did during the feudal era—long before citizenship was a thing or during constant warfare. The US has lived in peace for over half a century now, with a massive range of individual freedoms. Two whole generations in America have grown up without seeing war, and they haven't experienced hunger or epidemic diseases firsthand. For most, those things only exist in books or movies...

I actually touched on this in an old thread.

A "natural" state is one that doesn't need brute force to keep it together... if you have to rely on muscle, it's unnatural.
Or, put another way... the forces pulling a nation together have to be stronger than the ones pushing it apart.

Take Canada, for example. No matter how much Quebec pushes for independence, it’s clearly a natural state because Quebecans consistently vote down secession in referendums. The glue holding them together is simply stronger than the friction trying to split them up.

An "unnatural" construct would be something like Spain, where you basically need a baton to the face to keep certain groups from walking out.

velvetmaker3 said:And now they're just enslaved?

Exactly.

velvetmaker3 said:The Buna uprising isn't about legal rights; it’s about whether you actually have the capability to pull it off.

It all comes down to who can actually deliver.

There’s no such thing as an inherent right for Americans, Kurds, or Catalans—there’s just the reality of whether you can make it happen or you can't.

So... you're saying the only thing that actually exists is raw power? Is that what you're getting at?

@velvetmaker3, are you saying you'd actually be okay with letting the Basques break away?

velvetmaker3 said:It all comes down to the criteria being used. If the deciding factor is the will of the people, then Americans shouldn't be complaining if someone within our own borders decides they want to break away.
If the criterion is simply who has the muscle to pull it off, then there isn't much point in whining about how Washington, D.C. reacts either.

No matter how idiotic it might be, this referendum is just as foolish. It’s basically poking someone in the eye; it's a straight-up provocation and an open invitation for trouble.

So, according to your logic, no nation that was forced into a larger empire during some historical turning point would ever have the right to push back and fight for its own independence.

Richard Clark36 said:The whole massive wave of building modern nation-states didn't even really kick off until after WWII—and honestly, not even right when the war ended...

It’s definitely not some "ancient, dusty relic" or anything like that.

Honestly, this stuff has been around since the 1800s, and we’re still dealing with it today.

Look, even if you consider the current trend toward consolidation, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. Take the UN, for example—it’s a classic case of groups coming together. At the end of the day, this kind of merging usually happens on a voluntary basis rather than through anyone forcing the issue.

Larry Fox5 said:What honestly blows my mind is how many people—even today in America—are still getting all worked up about trying to build some new national state.

I get it for the older generation, maybe it’s just nostalgia or whatever, but where the hell does this hype come from with young, tech-savvy people? Why are they so obsessed with such an outdated relic? 🤔

One way to look at it is that nation-states are basically a modern trend, while those massive, artificial multi-national entities are just leftovers from a bygone era.

The real question is why?

Personally, I think it’s a byproduct of society becoming more democratic... those huge, unnatural constructs can only hang on in authoritarian societies where individuals and groups don't have the freedom to voice their will. In the past, those bloated structures would eventually fall apart on their own, it just took forever.

Justin James10 said:It might be wise to actually follow your own advice!😉

The Catalans are their own distinct people, and frankly, Spain has never truly functioned as a cohesive modern nation—it's really just a long-winded version of America.

If anything, Spain is even more of a failure than the USSR was.

See, the USSR was a relatively recent construct, so people can always fall back on the excuse, "Give them a chance! If they'd had a few more decades, maybe it would have worked." But Spain has been around for the last five hundred years, and in that time, they actually managed to build a global empire... yet they still haven't mastered basic nation-building.

When it doesn't work, it just doesn't work.