Posts by Morgan Cook10

velvetmaker3 said:Why did they even push for this referendum in the first place? They aren't actually under any kind of threat; this whole thing is just a blatant provocation.

I guess it's because they want to be free.. 🤷

velvetmaker3 said:Why do Americans care so much about whether Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country, or Quebec break away? What's with this obsession? Haven't we already done our part?
If other places want to do their own thing, let them. If they don't, nobody cares. Let them figure it out themselves—it's none of our business.

To me, it seems more like an obsession with those who are desperately trying to cling to unnatural structures at any cost.☕

Here’s where the distinction lies... at least in my book.

I might find some parallels between California and the US and end up rooting for California... but if, for instance, Californians used a referendum to decide they wanted to stay part of the US, even by a slim 51% margin... I wouldn't dream of questioning the will of the people like you're trying to do here. It's the same deal with Scotland, the Basque Country, Quebec, and so on.

My support isn't some obsessive fetish... I don't necessarily need to see California or Scotland become independent nations... which is why I can comfortably accept whatever the people actually decide.

velvetmaker3 said:California is doing well within Spain, but the real question is whether it can stay that way once it's independent.

That alone isn't enough of a reason, though. In any country, a prosperous region might try to break away—whether it's Northern Italy, Northern Ohio, or pretty much anywhere else.

Honestly, I’d bet against them.

But that's kind of beside the point... because what you're trying to do here is put a price tag on freedom. It’s like... let me try another marriage analogy. You don't decide whether to get a divorce based solely on a spreadsheet. Sure, money plays a part in the decision eventually, but a cold economic calculation isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to life-changing choices.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers easily made up for the ones that were seized. This whole referendum was out of control, especially since there weren't any observers present.
Just imagine if voting worked like this here: you bring pre-filled ballots from home, toss them in the box, then hit a few different polling stations just to drop off a handful more each time.
The referendum is completely illegitimate—not because it was illegal per se, but because there was absolutely zero oversight during the voting process.

And look... when you hold a referendum under repressive conditions, you aren't going to meet the standards found in actual democratic and civilized societies.

As for legitimacy... I’d argue that legitimacy was lost the moment they sent the police out to beat up citizens.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers were clearly playing it that way on purpose, trying to make themselves look like victims, which is why they went charging headfirst into trouble. In their day-to-day lives, there isn't any actual violence against Californians, so they had to manufacture it to play the victim card. It's just basic manipulation.

Since they’ve gone and turned things upside down over in Madrid, it feels like... well, I don't know, maybe it's intentional, maybe it isn't, but it definitely feels like they're just stirring the pot.

velvetmaker3 said:The organizers were clearly playing it that way on purpose, trying to make themselves look like victims, which is why they went charging headfirst into trouble. In their day-to-day lives, there isn't any actual violence against Californians, so they had to manufacture it to play the victim card. It's just basic manipulation.

Sure, things stay peaceful as long as they play nice and act like good little citizens. But the second they actually step up to a standard referendum? That’s when they start swinging for the fences.

velvetmaker3 said:There is no "will of the people," there’s just the will of whoever printed the ballots at home.
Plus, most people stayed home and boycotted the referendum.
Choosing an Exit on an issue this critical can definitely be seen as a boycott.

Or do you honestly think most people just don't give a damn about something this important?

Look... you missed the part I added earlier, which you conveniently skipped over.

To start with... as far as I know, we have 2.2 million ballots cast, plus about 770k that the police seized (according to the news). Roughly speaking... it looks like the majority of the classes actually showed up for the referendum.

velvetmaker3 said:So, we supposedly know that because of some ballots printed at home and the fact that one person can just dump a hundred of them in the box?

Honestly, the second you try to dismiss the will of the people, it’s a dead giveaway that your argument is built on shaky ground.

Imagine if it was just you and me calling all the shots.
If I were in your shoes, I’d suggest holding a brand-new referendum—one done strictly by the book, without any intimidation or pressure, following the highest democratic standards out there. You’d probably even push for something like that strict threshold they use in certain other states where you need a solid 55% majority to trigger a secession.

I’m betting you’d shoot that down too... and let’s face it, the administration in Washington, D.C. definitely would. It’s pretty clear you don't actually care what Californians really think.

velvetmaker3 said:It's not true. California doesn't have threatened territory, a threatened language, or a threatened population. Honestly, they're doing just fine.
Stop acting like they're being terrorized by Madrid, because that's just not what's happening.

Maybe try explaining that to the women who ended up in the ER with concussions.

I think we have enough experience around here to know how violence tends to snowball. So far, the federal government has used force just to try and shut down a simple referendum. A few hundred people getting beaten is really just the tip of the iceberg.

It's pretty obvious to me how far they'll go if California actually tries to make a physical break from the country.

velvetmaker3 said:That’s just not how it works. These kinds of decisions have massive, long-term consequences, and you can't just make them recklessly or without thinking things through properly.
We honestly have no idea what the Catalans actually want.

There’s plenty we don't know... but this part is pretty clear-cut.

The Catalans want to break away from Spain and set up their own independent nation!🤷

Look, you don't have to agree that California should be its own thing... but trying to hand-wave away the referendum results just makes it look like your arguments are built on sand.

David Vaughn75 said:So, what exactly makes you think a woman is some kind of territory to be conquered or owned? Honestly, that mindset is just... wow. It’s such an outdated, dusty way of looking at things—like we're still living in some old-school frontier era where everything was about claiming land. Real talk: treating a person like property isn't just wrong, it's incredibly narrow-minded. I mean, I've met all sorts of people traveling from New York to Cali, and if you walk around with that "territory" vibe, you’re going to find yourself pretty lonely, trust me. People aren't maps or plots of land you can just plant a flag in and call yours. They're individuals with their own lives, brains, and agency—period.
Look, it’s pretty straightforward—the Constitution actually lays out the whole process for divorce. It's all right there in black and white.

Honestly, this might be one of the absolute dumbest posts I've seen in a long, long time. 🤦

Seriously... maybe try a simpler analogy? One that you can actually wrap your head around?☕

David Vaughn75 said:So what's the logical next step here?
Am I just gonna declare my house a sovereign nation and secede from the United States?

If you ask me, the only groups that actually have a legitimate claim to their own state are peoples with deep historical and cultural roots that are totally distinct from everyone else—kind of like the Kurds.

Since you brought up your house... a better way to look at it would be if your wife decided she wanted a divorce after twenty years of marriage, and you just slapped her a couple of times to explain that the Constitution doesn't actually allow for divorce—plus, she’s technically shared property with everyone else in the house, not just her own thing.☕

Larry Walker24 said:The Associated Press is reporting that the California government just dropped the preliminary results from their independence referendum.

According to the numbers, about 90 percent of the people who showed up to vote were backing independence.

The California administration posted the breakdown on their Twitter profile, saying that out of the 2,262,424 ballots that weren't seized by the US federal government, 2,020,144 were for breaking away.

There were 176,566 votes against it, while 45,586 ballots were left blank. Another 20,129 were tossed out as invalid.

Foreign Minister Raul Romeva basically called out the European Union, demanding they make a move. He said, "Europe has to choose between disgrace and dignity. We're waiting for an answer."

Does that 2,262,424 figure include the 770,000 ballots the police confiscated?

David Vaughn75 said:Spot on—those secessionist types would suddenly find themselves changing their tune real fast.

What would they even change their minds about? Honestly, the whole concept of accepting some kind of Z4 setup is just nonsense.

There’s no reason to hand over a state-within-a-state to a national minority... especially after they've gone through the trouble of ethnic cleansing the territory they live in.
If Americans in Vojvodina or Gradisac don't get special rights, then Mexicans in America shouldn't either.

velvetmaker3 said:The thing is, you can't just hijack a passing political moment to tear apart a state that has such deep-rooted traditions.
It feels like today, people just want to hold a referendum and walk away because it's convenient. It doesn't work like that; even a tiny local municipality can't just break off that easily, let alone something on this scale.

Another point is that while there might be instances of ongoing oppression against certain groups, Californians aren't victims in a way that requires independence just to survive.

That "political moment" you're talking about has actually been simmering for decades, maybe even longer.

The mere fact that the government in Madrid has to resort to force says everything you need to know.

David Vaughn75 said:If the Z4 plan had actually gone through, those Mexicans would've had their own government, parliament, flag, anthem, even their own sports teams and everything else you mentioned.
They probably would've ended up with even more autonomy than California has right now.

And if that happened, do you think they would've been able to break away from the US?

If the Z4 had gone through, it would just be a matter of time before the Mexicans decided to secede from America.

Brenda Taylor13 said:And honestly, the American situation here is identical. From the perspective of the old USSR, our referendum wasn't even considered legal. So, we really need to tell everyone out there—let's not be hypocrites. I'm guessing you guys were just as much against the American referendum back then, too.

In America, there was even this murky loophole where you could interpret the Constitution in two different ways, which let people argue that America had the right to hold a referendum...

...but with Mexico, that just wasn't an option.

Matthew Cruz11 said:At this point, it isn't really about who holds the moral high ground or whether the referendum itself is "right" or "wrong"—it's about the fundamental legality of the whole affair. The crux of the matter—the absolute core issue—is that this referendum was conducted in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States. If they truly wanted to hold a legitimate vote, they would need to follow a completely different protocol—which, granted, wouldn't be easy, though certainly not an impossible feat to achieve.

I’ve gotta disagree with that... and I mean on principle.
When it came to the Mexico situation, the US set a clear precedent that the legal technicalities don't matter. Since my country recognized Mexico, we essentially signed off on that same logic.

If it worked for Mexico, it can work for California.

Megan Jones10 said:Quincy:

I don't even know where to start with this—just absolute nonsense. Honestly, what are we even doing here? It’s like nobody's actually thinking. kaže: Look, you can't just declare independence with 37.8% of the vote. Like, sure—you can try—but nothing actually happens. You won't get any traction at home, and you definitely won't get any respect on the world stage. It’s a non-starter. Washington, D.C. definitely went overboard with the heavy-handedness here—total overkill. But honestly, Puigdemont is the one really driving this whole circus and cranking up the tension for no reason. Instead of actually sitting down with D.C. to talk autonomy—especially when it comes to the money side of things—he’s just out there making these insane threats about breaking away. It's exhausting.

Look, it’s just like a bad breakup—if someone is already halfway out the door, trying to force them to stay through pressure or intimidation is the absolute worst move you can make. Trying to muscle people into staying during a referendum always backfires. The government in Washington, D.C. basically shot themselves in the foot with that stunt yesterday.

That's a solid analogy.
Washington, D.C. is acting like a controlling husband trying to use brute force to keep a wife who clearly wants to leave.

rustywalker82 said:Look, the US elections and the British referendum weren't illegal, so those results actually carry weight. They matter way more than some poll numbers that just track what people might like, rather than who actually shows up to vote.

That kind of left-wing denialism is exactly why California can never quite pull off its independence dreams.

Wait, what??
The real reason California hasn't become its own thing is because Washington D.C. simply won't let go.

Quincy:

I don't know what to tell you—sometimes things just happen. It’s like when you’re driving down a backroad in the Midwest and suddenly hit a patch of black ice you didn't see coming. You can plan all you want, but life has a way of throwing those curveballs right when you think you've got everything figured out. Just one of those situations where you have to take it in stride. kaže: Look, the bottom line is this: you can't just declare independence with 37.8% of the vote and expect things to actually work. Sure, you can make the announcement if you want, but that's where the dream ends. You won't get any traction domestically, and you certainly won't get a seat at the table internationally. It’s basically a non-starter. Madrid definitely overstepped by leaning too hard on the heavy hand, but let’s be real: Puigdemont is the one truly responsible for this whole circus. He’s the one cranking up the tension for no reason. Instead of actually de-escalating things through some sensible negotiations with the federal government—maybe pushing for more autonomy or better control over their own budget—he just keeps doubling down with those wild threats about seceding. It's a mess.

Look, I’m sorry, but what exactly are you basing that on? You're basically grouping everyone who didn't show up to the polls into the "anti-independence" camp, and that just doesn't track.