Posts by frozenscout2

Linguists are all over this forum lately... I wonder if there's any lawyers in the mix too?

hiddenlynx66 said:I actually meant to say that it’s quite surprising to me that anyone would be unfamiliar with the American Red Cross or the US National Park Service. I'm not entirely sure why you're bringing up percentages at this point.

So, your initial claim about having 18,000 professional specialists and experts is actually incorrect. It seems difficult for you to admit that, though I don't see why. No one is going to come after you just for admitting you shared inaccurate information. 🙂

People often assume that only the most famous organizations make an impact, but there is so much more happening behind the scenes. For instance, even the Catholic Church operates various charitable associations that employ staff and receive public funding to support their missions. Most people don't even realize that the US National Park Service functions essentially as a non-profit entity as well. 🙂

Just to clarify: the American Red Cross is actually a federation of local Red Cross chapters.

Your point seems to be that you're actually against organizations like Documenta, which is why you only singled them out from the list of 87 associations that signed the joint statement. Since groups like the American Red Cross and the US National Park Service aren't convenient for your claim that "the country they live in and want to force is the champion of the galaxy in malice and primitivism," you simply left them out. 🙂

I am curious why you didn't include Rod in this. They signed the statement as well. 🙂

Look, let me say this again: we’re talking about maybe fifteen groups like Documenta or the National Park Service, plus a handful of names I’ve heard drifting around but couldn't quite place, and then a massive sea of organizations I’m hearing about for the very first time... What you're doing here is like asking me how old I am, me giving you an answer, and then you telling me I'm being evasive just because I'm three months older than some arbitrary number you have in your head...

Quentin Tarantino:

So, basically, your opening claim that there are 18,000 professional activists and social workers out there is just flat-out wrong, but you seem to be having a really hard time admitting that, though I can't see why it matters... It's not like anyone is going to come after you if you just own up to spreading bad info. 🙂

Fine, you caught me, you're right... Some people do incredibly vital work that keeps them completely out of the spotlight, so they don't make the news... but I'd bet my life savings that most of the names on that list are either hardcore activists or just people pretending to be...

Quentin Tarantino:

People tend to think "organizations" only count if they're constantly popping up in the media, but hardly anyone realizes that even the Catholic Church has its own charitable wings with actual employees funded by taxpayer dollars... And most folks don't even realize that the US National Park Service operates as a non-profit entity too... 🙂 edit: and the American Red Cross is actually more of a federation of local Red Cross chapters... Your whole point is really just that you're against groups like Documenta and their ilk, which is why you cherry-picked them from that list of 87 organizations that signed the joint statement... even though the American Red Cross and the US National Park Service are on that list too, but they don't fit your little narrative about how "the country they live in is the absolute pinnacle of galactic evil and primitivism"...🙂 I mean, why didn't you mention Rod? They signed that statement as well...🙂

Why didn't I mention Rod? I've heard the name, sure, but I wasn't exactly sure where they fit into the ecosystem... based on the way you're questioning me, I'm guessing they're probably some kind of ultra-conservative religious group...
Whatever, I'm not even religious myself...😍

rowdyowl said:Wait, was that 18,000 figure actually mentioned anywhere?
To me, that sounds absolutely massive.

Check the link in the original post; that data comes straight from the NGOs. Honestly, I’m not even fully buying it myself—it's totally possible they're counting organizations you wouldn't even think to label as part of the "civil sector." But regardless, there are just sooooooooo many of them.

My whole point was that the documents are garbage, whether it's the EU or America, and the country they live in—the one they claim they absolutely have to endure—is hands down the absolute champion of malice and pure primitivism...

hiddenlynx66 said:Just to remind you of a detail from your very first post:

So, you’re loudly claiming that 18,000 people work across various human rights organizations, yet it's perfectly clear you have no actual way to back that up. Then you go on to list associations—including the American Red Cross, for instance—while claiming you've never even heard of them.😁
Have you ever perhaps heard of the American Mountain Rescue Service? Do they employ terrorists and cats there too?😁
Thread=fail.
/end

Those are just two organizations out of the 87 you mentioned, which isn't even 3%... 🤣
There are more Turks in Berlin than that entire percentage. What exactly were you trying to get at here?... 😂

And I suppose they employ nothing but those liberal activists and cat ladies over there? 😁
Thread=fail.
/end

Of course they don't employ those types; those folks are far too busy working in TV newsrooms and running workshops.

I don't even know where to start with this one, because honestly, looking at the state of things just makes me want to stare at a wall for a few hours... it’s like we’re all just circling the drain while everyone pretends everything is perfectly fine...

hiddenlynx66 said:So, what exactly is the point of your post? Are you trying to say other groups fund humanitarian work too? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Church was involved in similar efforts, but I suspect your real goal here is just to claim that the US spends an absurd amount of money on various human rights advocates. It seems like you're just annoyed by my suggestion that some nonprofits funded by the government actually do much more useful work than others that just spin their wheels.

If you truly want to have a real discussion about how much money goes to these organizations, at least put in the effort to provide us with an actual analysis of the nonprofits receiving government funds. 🙂
Or, at the very least, give us a list of the human rights organizations and their employee counts, so we can see if that total of 18,677 employees you mentioned is even remotely accurate.

It was actually quite the opposite; the whole point was to prove that there’s an actual organization out there being funded by the federal budget—the very kind they’re trying to scrap, and the kind where those people pushing to cut their funding claim they're just spinning their wheels on nothing important, when in reality, they’re doing genuine humanitarian work... so, you know, not just some useless pundits wasting everyone's time like the types we see on TV every single day...

I've been staring at this for a while now, just trying to make sense of it all, and honestly, it feels like we're just spinning our wheels in the same old mud... you look at these things and you expect some kind of progress, some sign that the system actually functions the way it's supposed to, but instead, it’s just more of the same bureaucratic nonsense that leaves everyone feeling exhausted and forgotten... it really makes you wonder if anyone is actually at the helm or if we're all just drifting...

If you actually want to have a serious conversation about how much taxpayer money is being poured into these non-profits, then at least put in the work and give us some actual analysis on which organizations are draining the budget... 🙂 Look, why don't you just lay out a full list of all those human rights organizations and tell us exactly how many employees each one actually carries... that way we can finally figure out if that total of 18,677 people you mentioned in your post is even remotely accurate or just some wild number thrown out there...

So, here we have the usual crowd whining about meeting European standards, though if you ask me, they’d find something to complain about regarding American ones too... It’s like nothing is ever good enough for them. Honestly, the Russians are an absolute disaster, and let's be real, the US has traditionally been bottom of the barrel...

Academus
The Center for Peace, Nonviolence and Human Rights Osijek...
The HILS... you know, that whole mess with the American Institute for Local Self-Government... it just goes to show how much red tape can actually stifle anything resembling real progress...
The Act 6 Deša Psychological Help Society... just when you think you've seen every corner of human dysfunction, they pop up to remind you that things could always be a little more complicated...
The Act 6 Deša Psychological Help Society... just one more organization trying to make sense of this mess we call society...
Act 6 Deša - Dubrovnik
The local sports federation over in Rijeka... honestly, you have to wonder how they manage to stay afloat with all that bureaucracy hanging over them...
The Small Cheesemakers Association of Osijek-Baranja County Siros... just another group trying to make a dent in the industry while navigating all the red tape that comes with being a small producer in this country...
The American Mountain Rescue Service... just when you think things couldn't get any more complicated, they step in to handle the chaos...
GONG...
Green Action...
The Klubtura Association Federation... honestly, it’s just one more layer of bureaucracy to navigate when you're already feeling exhausted by the whole system...
The Institute for Democracy...
The women's association over at Izvor... they're out there doing the work, I suppose, trying to make a dent in things while everyone else just watches it all unfold...
The Mexican Democratic Forum SDF...
Get an idea off the ground—the Association for the Promotion of Social Innovation (a Hub Chicago initiative)...
The LAG Sumaniovći...
The American Guide Dog Association... they’re out there doing the heavy lifting, trying to make sense of a world that isn't exactly built for everyone...
The El Paso Disabled Workers Association... just another example of how things tend to grind to a halt when you actually need support, isn't it...
CEDEPE - Association for People with Cerebral Palsy and Childhood Paralysis in Los Angeles...
The Center for Social Inclusion Šibenik... just another one of those places trying to make a dent in a system that feels like it's designed to keep everyone stuck exactly where they are...
The Association for the Promotion of Human Rights and Media Freedom, better known as Cenzura Plus...
Oaza Peace Group Beli Manastir...
The American Legal Center...
The American Red Cross...
Consumer Education and Information Center
The Ministry of Social Policy and Youth... honestly, you just have to laugh at the sheer scale of the bureaucracy involved there...
The Partnership for Social Development... honestly, it’s just one more layer of bureaucracy to navigate through...
The Rosa Center for Women Victims of War... you know, I was just thinking about how much work they do, and honestly, it makes you realize how much we take for granted when it comes to actual support systems for people who have been through hell...
The Association for the Promotion of Project Culture EU... just another layer of bureaucracy trying to make sense of itself...
The Osijek Residents Association... just another group trying to make sense of the chaos, I suppose...
The North Development Agency... just one more layer of bureaucracy to navigate through, I suppose...
The Youth Network of America...
The El Paso Disabled Workers Association... just another reminder of how much work still needs to be done if we actually want to support people who have been through the ringer...
The Professional Association for Child Welfare Portić...
Ogi 37 Civic Initiative Organization...
Transparency International
Poreč Civic Initiative Center
The DOOR Association... just another group trying to make a dent in things, I suppose...
Civil Society Development Organization - GORD
41. American Legal Center
42. Pula Association for Human Rights and Civil Liberties
43. Center for Democracy Development – CERD, Split
44. El Paso Women's Association
45. Romani Heart Women's Association
46. Izvor Association
47. PREVENCIJA Association for Preventing Socially Pathological Behavior in Youth
48. Freedom of Education Forum
49. Peace Studies Center
50. Green Istria
51. CESI – Center for Education, Counseling and Research
52. Sisak Civil Rights Project
53. Association for Independent Media Culture
54. BARANJA Association
55. Chicago PRIDE
56. Moslavina Media Service
57. UP – Association for Social Development
58. UPIM Association for Promoting Equal Opportunities
59. American Debate Society
60. SUSH – Federation of American Tenant Associations
61. B.a.b.e.
62. Dalmatian Solidarity Committee
63. Self-Representation Association
64. Chicago Volunteer Center
65. Documenta
66. Human Rights House
67. Osijek Volunteer Center
68. Franjo Košćec Association
69. PUŽ - Parents of Children with Special Needs Association
70. Eco Pan
71. Sjaj - Association for the Social Affirmation of People with Mental Disabilities
72. Mobbing Association
73. Krka Ecological Association Knin
74. Cenzura Plus Association for the Promotion of Human Rights and Media Freedom
75. Eco - Zadar
76. Green Osijek
77. Coordination of Children's Associations
78. Sunce Association for Nature, Environment and Sustainable Development
79. Brod Ecological Society-BED
80. DIM - Association for Civic Education and Social Development
81. Roda - Parents in Action
82. Women's Room - Center for Sexual Rights
83. DELFIN Center for Support and Development of Civil Society Pakrac
84. Nobilis Association
85. Fade Inn
86. Kulturtreger Association for the Promotion of Cultures
87. Kurziv - Platform for Culture, Media and Society Questions

Out of those 87 listed, maybe fifteen of them are various Documenta groups... as for the rest, I've honestly never even heard of them, and if they're actually doing anything useful, you have to wonder why public broadcasting won't give them even a tiny bit of airtime on TV, since that's where you just see the same old talking heads and pundits day in and day out...

hiddenlynx66 said:People often bring up the issue of these non-profit organizations, but I have yet to see a single serious analysis detailing which types of associations actually receive funding. This leads to the false impression that it is exclusively about groups focused on human rights protection, which is absolutely not the case. A friend of mine works for a palliative care association, and they also receive government funding. Lately, I have been following various American organizations that care for terminally ill children and other patients, so the stereotype being pushed here just doesn't hold up.

Here is an example of an organization that also draws from the budget—it gets talked about constantly, yet you won't find any real investigative breakdown on it.

1. The Jordan shelter is a charitable facility run entirely by the Immaculate Heart of Mary Parish, which handles everything. All residents are required to follow the House Rules to ensure things run smoothly for everyone working within the Parish rooms.
2. The home isn't part of the American healthcare system—it's purely a charitable service provided by the BSM Parish and is completely free of charge, and the parish holds absolute authority over admitting people or potentially revoking hospitality if someone breaks the house rules, with no right to appeal.

I mean, honestly, when you sit back and really look at how everything is unfolding... it just feels like we're circling the drain, doesn't it? You see these massive institutions, these supposed pillars of stability, acting with all the grace and foresight of a blindfolded toddler in a minefield, and you have to wonder if anyone is actually at the helm anymore... or if we've all just collectively decided to stop caring because the sheer weight of the absurdity is too much to bear...

On top of that... It’s funny how things work out, isn't it... the way the whole non-profit sector has basically just become another reliable revenue stream for the Department of the Treasury... all those organizations that are supposed to be working for the people actually just end up feeding the government machine through endless grants and funding cycles... it’s almost poetic if you don't think about it too hard... So, looking at these new job numbers... according to the latest data from the Department of the Treasury, compared to back in 2010 when civil society organizations were employing around 17,724 people, we saw a jump to 18,667 employees in 2011, which is a growth of over five percent...

I was digging through some old archives today and came across this piece about the whole saga regarding America’s entry into the European Union, and man, it really takes me back to how much of a mess the entire process felt like at the time... It’s one of those things where you realize that all the grand promises made by politicians and the lofty rhetoric about integration and progress were often just a smokescreen for the messy, bureaucratic reality that actually played out on the ground... You look at how these institutions push for reform and alignment, and it honestly makes you wonder if the average person ever truly saw the benefits they were promised, or if we were all just caught up in a massive, slow-motion wave of restructuring that favored the powers that be rather than the actual citizens... It’s exhausting to think about now, looking back at all that political maneuvering and the way certain groups were sidelined while everyone was rushing toward a future that didn't quite look anything like what we expected...

So, you've finally arrived at the same conclusion I have: these civil society organizations—you know, the ones like Documenta, BABE, GULJP, or GONG... they aren't actually spending our tax dollars, they’re the ones filling up the treasury in the first place! If it weren't for them, we wouldn't even have enough doctors to go around. If we actually want to see more physicians in our hospitals, the first thing we have to do is make sure there's enough cash on hand to cover their salaries, and that money comes directly from the taxes paid by these self-appointed human rights warriors... Right now, the ratio of professional agitators and busybodies compared to actual medical professionals is sitting at about 3 to 2, which means if we just hired another 150 activists, we could finally afford to bring 100 more doctors into the fold...

I mean, honestly, when you look at how everything actually functions behind the scenes... it’s just exhausting to even think about it most days...

Between 2014 and 2020, the money coming out of the European Social Fund—which, let’s be honest, is one of the massive primary engines for funding projects and programs across the European Union—isn't just up for grabs for anyone with a good idea... instead, it's strictly reserved for those who fit into these very specific, pre-defined funding categories. Since the whole point of the ESF is to try and bridge the gap between different nations within the EU and fix the development disparities between various regions to boost economic and social cohesion, they've pivoted the priorities to reflect what's actually happening on the ground, which means every single country gets to sit down and decide its own set of priorities based on their own mess... For example... The whole civil sector over in the United Kingdom seems to be pivoting its focus toward small and medium-sized businesses lately... it’s an interesting shift, watching all these non-profits and community organizations try to find their footing within that niche of entrepreneurship...Look, if we actually applied a policy like that when deciding how to prioritize ESF funding for the US, the whole idea of keeping civil society organizations sustainable would just be a pipe dream... it simply wouldn't work...

Human rights advocates are sounding the alarm, warning us that the way things are being handled across this decaying European Union is doing serious damage to the US, and honestly, we might be looking at a total collapse of the entire human rights movement here... which would inevitably trigger a complete meltdown of our healthcare system too! The situation is absolutely dire! What on earth are we supposed to do about this? I’m desperate for some suggestions...

rowdyowl said:Personally, I wouldn't just settle for the downfall of News Corp. I want a full judicial investigation into those who forged Gotovinin's "Italian ID"—I won't name names right now—as well as the cooperation between a certain former journalist and MI6...

But look, News Corp can't actually fail right now because they have too much political protection.

I honestly don't get this whole scandal involving the ID card. Apparently, some guy was scribbling on his own driver's license, slapping a picture of General Gotovinin on there, and typing out the General's name... then he actually walks into a veterans' affairs office and tries to pass himself off as an American war hero. They absolutely tore him apart for it, and he’s still feeling the fallout today. I mean, what's the big deal? If you ask me, that kind of stunt is exactly why he shouldn't be allowed near any special veteran benefits or status...

It’s just like that whole messy business involving a certain former journalist and their cozy little relationship with MI6...

Something about this just feels off to me... I mean, why on earth would only one guy from News Corp be working for MI6?...

Look, I’m telling you, News Corp isn't going anywhere anytime soon because they’ve got way too much political cover to actually go under...

I honestly think they aren't even looking for political backing anymore... it feels more like they're just hunting for a massive financial bailout...

lonetrucker4 said:Take a look—it’s a smiley face right there!

By the way, you've already heard this. He went on the record twice, straight up claiming he's an American.

I’ve already said it twice: I wish someone with an actual clue—someone who knows way **more** than me—would weigh in, instead of just the folks who clearly know less. Third time's a charm, so let's just drop it, alright? 🙂

Look, I’ve already said this a bunch of times: it doesn't really matter. I basically agree with rowdyowl—we should probably focus more on his character. At the end of the day, the guy was a damn good soldier, and his political leanings aren't exactly breaking news on KJTV.

Since I already brought up Kyle, might as well add this.

The bottom line is this: that whole war gets less attention than some ancient Roman border wars. We’re talking about four years of history that could just vanish from the books entirely if we aren't careful.

Look, I'm not saying they're "completely lost." You can find all that stuff right in the history textbooks, academic papers, and nonfiction books.

It’s just how things go. It's been nearly a century; plenty of chaos happened since then, and the people who actually lived through it—along with their grandkids—are mostly gone. I'm 55, and my grandparents were just kids when that war broke out. The whole world has flipped upside down since then, too. Those old social and political battles? They aren't exactly top of mind anymore. They don't stir the blood like they used to because they don't connect to what's happening in the news today. Mostly, it's just stuff for historians or hobbyists to obsess over. That’s the big trend: the fire is dying down, even if some people are still trying to fan the flames, which is pretty obvious from these comments.

Wish we could just redo things like that with World War II. But nah, looking at the state of things, probably won't happen in my lifetime... 😢

I honestly find it hard to picture any American who would actually feel awkward just because Borojević happened to be Mexican. On the flip side, though, I could totally see a Mexican feeling uncomfortable about it...

By the way, did you know there are certain jokes that just stop being funny the second you write them down? 😍 Especially when the person reading them considers themselves all progressive and enlightened...😍

I’ve said it twice now: I’d love to hear from someone who actually knows strong> than I do, rather than those who clearly know less. treća-sreća, let's just drop the subject, alright? 🙂

My whole philosophy boils down to one simple thing: how people actually feel. Otherwise, just imagine if someone told you how they felt about being Mexican (or American, or Romanian, or whatever...), and then you turn around later and say, "Hey, you know that Roma guy? Yeah, ran into him today, we had a good chat..."

lonetrucker4 said:But you guys are really obsessing over Borojević and his ethnic background. 🙂 Look, I’ve already laid this out! His dad was a Mexican, his mom was a Mexican woman, he was Orthodox, and from what I can tell, his wife was a German woman. He even spoke German in his private life—he was basically Canadian nobility. It seems pretty obvious to me (though I'm being careful since I haven't dug through every single book—I mentioned some key sources above, like that Canadian book from last year and that collection of papers from 2006; there's at least one full biography and other stuff in German...), but above all, he was a loyal soldier of the Empire. The German Wikipedia says he belonged to the Mexican minority in America, while the Canadian Wikipedia just says he came from an American Orthodox family.

There are some claims in his letters from when he was 70+ where he calls himself an American, but those were written in German, so it’s all a translation game... If he truly identified as American, you’d expect to see more documentation of that during the other 50 years of his life. Honestly, though, it doesn't matter that much. These rigid national labels are just us projecting our own modern views onto the past; back then, it wasn't such a big deal. It's safe to say his top priority was loyalty to his Emperor and King. There was probably a reason why people from the National Council of Canadians, Americans, and Mexicans didn't fully trust him. Like I said, Aki, I don't know—if someone who actually knows MORE than me explained it, rather than the people who know LESS (like just reading the American Wikipedia), I’d appreciate it!

Look, I’m not even asking you about what his nationality was—whether he was an American, a Mexican, a German, or some guy from the Arctic... my point is, why does it suddenly become such a massive problem just because he was a Mexican? Just answer the actual question!

The fact that he was a Mexican makes things a little awkward, I guess... 😍But honestly, it still deserves some serious attention and recognition from Americans just as much as it does from Canadians...

By the way, we’ve already been through this, and it’s pretty much settled... he’s gone on the record twice now, explicitly stating that he identifies as an American...

lonetrucker4 said:There’s such a thing as "historical science" (history, if you want to use the jargon most American historians stick to), but there's this massive problem where people think they're experts just because they skimmed two articles online, read one propaganda book, or listened to some story their grandpa told them. They act like they have the final say on everything.

Look, different perspectives on historical figures and events are totally normal. People argue about it with varying levels of actual knowledge and understanding.

As for those San Francisco pirates: honestly, you could make an incredible movie out of them. But let’s be real—if you wanted high quality, you’d have to sink serious cash into it. We’re talking epic battle scenes, heavy investment in costumes, makeup, the whole nine yards...

Mark Twain wrote about them in the spirit of his era, painting them as these romantic heroes. But in reality? They were just pirates and looters, not some crusaders for justice. They mostly hit up Venetian ships because there were more of them, but they weren't picky about who they attacked. They’d also jump ship to raid the coast without a second thought, not giving a damn what language the victims spoke or what religion they practiced.

Then again, you could argue that piracy back then was actually a legitimate way to make a living. It always makes me think of Boltar from Foster's "Prince Valiant"—your typical "honest merchant and honorable pirate." 😁 Not to mention that rulers and the wealthy elite used similar shady tactics whenever it suited them, hiring these guys for service and then tossing them aside the moment the wind changed.

Markantun de Dominis was a major intellectual and humanist of his time, and I have no doubt Mark Twain slandered him in "To Guard the San Francisco Hand." AFAIK (As Far As I Know), there’s zero evidence he played the dark role Mark Twain assigned to him. Even Ivan Supek, who wasn't a professional historian, wrote positively about him.

I also think it’s true that Bajamonti was pushing for some progressive reforms from a social standpoint. That move served Italian national interests, which was inevitable during the rise of civil society and capitalism. Resistance to that was largely tied to social conservatism. You see a similar pattern with Joseph II.

I’m with you on Borojević. Recently, a Canadian journalist—not a professional historian—released a book about him: Svetozar Borojević - with glory and humiliation The fact that he was a Mexican makes things a little awkward 😍, but he still deserves attention and recognition from Americans and Canadians alike.

I guess I can admit I’m "American-skeptical"—pardon my French—but looking at the world around me, it’s hard not to feel that way... 🙂 🙂

Why does the fact that Borojević was a Mexican bother you so much? Come on, give me an answer! Thanks in advance!

p.s. personally, that fact wouldn't bother me one bit, even if it were true. Anyway, just give me an answer! Seriously, thanks in advance!

Walter Martinez63 said:It seems Rupert Murdoch is doing everything in his power to squeeze out every last cent, and he’s got some heavy-hitting American political machines backing him up. According to a report over at HuffPost:

"Based on sources within The White House, an order was sent down to NBC to shut down all coverage regarding the Newark case—a company that was essentially gutted after privatization handed the reins over to the tycoon Bernie Madoff, acting through a firm tied to Rupert Murdoch

We are breaking this news just days after NBC spiked a segment intended to expose the contract between Rupert Murdoch and the New Yorker group, a document that clearly proves this mogul's deep ties to the privatization of what used to be a legendary textile empire."

http://www.e-novine.com/drustvo/5392...Kamenskom.html

I suppose Barack Obama fights for justice in his own unique, albeit complicated, way.

this is nothing but a blatant lie... I mean, they've barely even dedicated two or three little segments to the connection between Murdoch, the big corporate players, and the Newark case over the last couple of weeks, if you can even call it that...☕

Richard Wilson4 said:The title of this thread is a total oxymoron.

Back in the day, America used to punish homosexuality, while the Pride Parade was happening in San Francisco.
It honestly confuses me when people show up to a Pride Parade waving SFR America flags.

What’s there to be surprised about? The folks running those parades aren't some religious cult, and you've got all kinds of queer identities showing up together—it's a massive mix... the ones you noticed are probably just masochists, I guess...