340 posts shown.
urbantinker8 said:Are you seriously trying to compare studying law or engineering to a three-year vocational program for glass cutters?🤦
When you're actually studying, I guess it's only natural to dive into the deep details of a specific subject, whereas for a glass cutter, I suppose the priority is just knowing the practical side rather than the theory. Aren't you the one who has always been advocating for that very thing?🤔
So, if he doesn't care much for general culture—which, honestly, seems to be the modern trend of being narrow-minded—then I guess he definitely doesn't need a history of glass cutting either.
Exactly.
Personally, I feel like for some similar trades, even three years isn't enough, so what on earth is a single year day of schooling supposed to accomplish?😲
I mean, I wouldn't even trust my trained hair stylist to handle anything delicate after just a meager year day of practice, let alone trust a technician to install an AC unit or do any wiring in my house.🙂
copperpuma11 said:Nothing actually stops them, but it rarely works out. Ever since this policy was put in place, we see maybe three to five students like that every single year. Only one student ever actually managed to make it through and get into their senior year on the regular track.
Brandon Foster7 said:They won't get bogged down in specific war dates, but they’ll definitely realize that war is garbage. They'll see how people try to drag them into a new conflict under the guise of patriotism, when really, it's just a way for the ultra-rich to pad their bank accounts.
Wars start over territory and ego, but you feed those ideals to an unsuspecting public. The people die while the architects of the war cash in.
It's simple, really, but you have to give everyone a fair shot at realizing that war and aggression aren't the answer.
Education gives them that chance; whether they actually get it is up to them.
History is life's greatest teacher.
Biology helps you understand evolution.
And geography? That’s just to make you believe the world is flat.
urbantinker8 said:well, I guess...
firstly, things just look clearer on the white ones because those green tiles feel like they've been sitting around since the colonial era—all scratched up, greasy, and covered in lines.
secondly, considering those old chalkboards date back even further than that, they're just so incredibly gross; there's so much dust, hair, and grime embedded in them that just looking at one might give you contact dermatitis, and getting too close could probably trigger asthma.
thirdly, on a more personal note, I'd rather not have sandpaper for skin on my hands, so I suppose I'd prefer having a marker in my hand instead of dealing with chalk.🙂
but hey, I mean, I'll settle for the green ones if I absolutely have to, assuming we get some decent chalk and maybe upgrade to some modern chalkboards.🙏
and speaking of history and glassblowers, the Secretary of Education mentioned how much history matters to the glassblowing trade. okay, I can see her point to an extent, I suppose.
but then in the very next breath, she suggested that the history professors at that vocational school would have to drop general history entirely just so they could teach exclusively the history of glassblowing😲 🤣 🤦
yeah. that's clearly a matter of extreme life-and-death importance.
general history versus the history of glassblowing.🙂
so, that's the kind of "reform" she's talking about.🤦
hiddendriver34 said:Sure, if they wanted to, there could be plenty of ways to support someone looking to level up their education. But right now? They’ve basically slammed the door shut on them.
I don't know the exact stats on how many tradespeople actually went to college (probably next to none), but I do know way more than 1% of them used to take an extra year of vocational school after finishing their initial three-year program. Now, that path is totally blocked.
Besides, I think that whole "Why would a glassblower care about history?" line is just incredibly condescending and snobbish. Look, his job is to cut glass and do it well. Honestly, the less time he spends filling his head with stuff he doesn't need for the workshop, the better.
hiddendriver34 said:Sure, if they wanted to, there could be plenty of ways to support someone looking to level up their education. But right now? They’ve basically slammed the door shut on them.
I don't know the exact stats on how many tradespeople actually went to college (probably next to none), but I do know way more than 1% of them used to take an extra year of vocational school after finishing their initial three-year program. Now, that path is totally blocked.
Besides, I think that whole "Why would a glassblower care about history?" line is just incredibly condescending and snobbish. Look, his job is to cut glass and do it well. Honestly, the less time he spends filling his head with stuff he doesn't need for the workshop, the better.
Nicholas King;71864895 said:Everyone advocating for this idea of a "well-rounded citizen"—someone who just happens to be a glassblower but writes novels and studies ancient architecture in America in their spare time—is over-idealizing reality.
That glassblower spent four years in middle school covering history and geography, plus two years on biology, chemistry, and physics. They study history in depth from prehistory all the way through WWII, touching on the Civil War. Is it really going to be such a massive tragedy that they didn't have to sit through another two years of specific subjects they might not even need?
It’s not about being idealistic. The kids enrolling in three-year vocational programs aren't necessarily avoiding academics; many end up there because it was the only option left. Options were limited because everyone tries to squeeze into prep schools—and even four-year vocational schools are treated like second-rate choices—simply because parents don't want their kids to enter "manual labor." That small minority who actually *wants* to go into a trade already has a foundation from middle school, and if they get interested later, they can always catch up.
/QUOTE]hiddendriver34 said:Yeah. Honestly, one of the few silver linings left over from the old days is that we don't really have a rigid class system here. I didn't truly wrap my head around that until I spent some time in the Netherlands, which is definitely more class-conscious (though still nowhere near as intense as, say, the UK).
When people adopt that "mind your own business" or "don't rock the boat" attitude, they’re actually just widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots and helping build a class society.
We’re all in the same boat here—the "it'll get better someday" class.
A glassblower could study history all the way to a PhD, and they'll still never rub elbows with the upper class, unless some billionaire needs a custom glass sculpture. And if that happens, sure, they'll probably debate the causes of WWI and its impact on WWII while they're at it.
Michelle Nelson4 said:Well, even if it is their fault, people will just claim they only got the job because they're buddies with the right folks back home. 😉
In America, especially when you're dealing with government bureaucracy, there is nothing more unpopular than actually being successful. If you actually make progress, everyone else starts complaining that they're victims of the system and that nothing can ever change...
Betty Chase74 said:Actually, it is necessary. If you understood the curriculum, you wouldn't be trivializing the entire profession. While the volume of material and practical training might not seem massive, there is a logical foundation to it. Otherwise, the career path wouldn't even exist.
One needs to master the fundamentals, which is why a three-year high school diploma is required, rather than a full university degree, just to become a "shelf stocker."
If the training is weak or the hands-on experience is lacking, the blame lies with the schools and the employers—essentially, the American educational system.
Betty Chase74 said:Hershey carries chips and tea, along with a few other minor items. 😉 Oops, maybe it’s not quite as straightforward as that charger suggests. 🤔
True, plus there's some retail management, sales psychology, and so on.
All jokes aside, if you believe that specific training for that role is unnecessary, does that imply the whole field is pointless to the rest of us? Are you setting the gold standard for what counts as "worthwhile" education?
That is precisely why our retail, tourism, manufacturing, and general economy struggle. It's because everyone thinks they can jump into any role without preparation. As a result, everything turns out sloppy and chaotic.
In reality, every gear in the machine needs to be in its proper place, and every worker needs to perform their specific duties correctly so that, ultimately, the entire system operates productively, efficiently, and with high quality.
But no, it's much easier to stick your nose into someone else's business and act like a know-it-all from the sidelines—undermining and discrediting others. If people actually focused on mastering their own roles, we might end up with a smarter society. Just a thought.
hiddendriver34 said:I’ve never really sat down and dissected this, but I assume a three-year vocational program in the US is designed so kids walk away with more than just technical skills—they should actually come out with some general knowledge and a sense of how the world works. If they’re just learning a specific trade, why bother with three whole years? You can pick up job-specific qualifications in a few months if you're focused. As far as general subjects go, most of them barely need anything from high school.
They don't even need much English instruction since they mastered reading and writing back in elementary school.
Math is pretty much a wash too, because once you've nailed addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division in the second grade, you've got the basics covered.
Sure, a server might need a little foreign language for the customers, but a line cook probably won't use it at all.
Honestly, it feels like they only really need the lower grades of elementary school; everything from fifth grade onward is basically overkill.😁
rowdypanther12 said:🙏 🙏 🙏
If we were talking about retraining—you know, people who already have degrees but decided they’d rather be machinists than chefs—then I think this would be a great idea.
It should focus strictly on technical skills and leave it at that.
But if these are high schoolers just picking their path, we really ought to maintain some level of a broad foundation in their education.
Betty Chase74 said:Actually, it is necessary. If you understood the curriculum, you wouldn't be trivializing the entire profession. While the volume of material and practical training might not seem massive, there is a logical foundation to it. Otherwise, the career path wouldn't even exist.
One needs to master the fundamentals, which is why a three-year high school diploma is required, rather than a full university degree, just to become a "shelf stocker."
If the training is weak or the hands-on experience is lacking, the blame lies with the schools and the employers—essentially, the American educational system.
wanderingbadger44 said:It’s nothing new to see such condescending and ugly commentary directed at teachers, but it still hits a nerve whenever I come across something like this.
It’s as if anyone who graduates with a degree in linguistics, fine arts, or the social sciences is just a failure who couldn't hack it in anything else. It's hard to wrap my head around the idea that someone might actually prefer the nuances of music over coding, or find languages more captivating than chemistry.
But setting that aside, there's another angle I want to touch upon.
Since we are discussing student welfare, has anyone considered how a kid might end up enrolled in a three-year culinary program simply because they were pressured into it, even if they have zero passion for it? Then, once they hit adulthood and finally gain some clarity, they try to pivot into a fourth year to become a hospitality technician because they previously took geography and languages. And maybe they pass their SATs and head off to college...
In the end, that three-year culinary stint remains their highest level of achievement.
Well, since religious studies are staying on the curriculum, I suppose they could always study theology. 🕺
wanderingbadger44 said:It’s nothing new to see such condescending and ugly commentary directed at teachers, but it still hits a nerve whenever I come across something like this.
It’s as if anyone who graduates with a degree in linguistics, fine arts, or the social sciences is just a failure who couldn't hack it in anything else. It's hard to wrap my head around the idea that someone might actually prefer the nuances of music over coding, or find languages more captivating than chemistry.
But setting that aside, there's another angle I want to touch upon.
Since we are discussing student welfare, has anyone considered how a kid might end up enrolled in a three-year culinary program simply because they were pressured into it, even if they have zero passion for it? Then, once they hit adulthood and finally gain some clarity, they try to pivot into a fourth year to become a hospitality technician because they previously took geography and languages. And maybe they pass their SATs and head off to college...
In the end, that three-year culinary stint remains their highest level of achievement.
Well, since religious studies are staying on the curriculum, I suppose they could always study theology. 🕺
Betty Chase74 said:It is to earn a credential specifically for a career in retail. 😉
Everyone seems to assume they can perform high-quality work regardless of their actual field of study. That is why customers end up satisfied with service from, say, a former theology professor who couldn't find a job in her specialty and was forced to work a cash register at a place like Gap or Old Navy.
🤦🤦
That isn't true. For the most part, these are just average, capable kids. Everyone has their own reasons for choosing a path, after all.
And what would a mechanical engineer need to know about Anna Karenina?
unknown
Betty Chase74 said:It is to earn a credential specifically for a career in retail. 😉
Everyone seems to assume they can perform high-quality work regardless of their actual field of study. That is why customers end up satisfied with service from, say, a former theology professor who couldn't find a job in her specialty and was forced to work a cash register at a place like Gap or Old Navy.
🤦🤦
That isn't true. For the most part, these are just average, capable kids. Everyone has their own reasons for choosing a path, after all.
And what would a mechanical engineer need to know about Anna Karenina?
unknown
Matthew Castillo5 said:That’s why we’re finally introducing this "school of life" concept—where they'll supposedly focus on stuff people actually need to know to survive. Bwa-ha-ha-ha.
Christian Wilson28 said:Why on earth are we recruiting people for sales roles, seriously? what's the deal?
Larry Walker24 said:American news outlets are blowing up today because students in some three-year vocational schools—the ones testing out this new "dual program" this year—are losing biology, history, chemistry, physics, and geography.
According to the Department, this currently only hits four specific trades: retail, cosmetology, chimney sweeps, and glassmakers. But give it two years, and they want this dual program rolled out to every single three-year vocational school in the country.
Some teachers are claiming they didn't even hear about this decision from the Department until late August. This is huge because it could mean their teaching hours get slashed or they end up out of a job entirely.
The Department, however, is pushing back, saying this dual program isn't anything new and they've been working on it for years. They're playing it down as just an experimental pilot in a handful of schools. They claim it aligns perfectly with the National Vocational Education Curriculum and was built by a bunch of experts. The whole idea is to lighten the load on general subjects that aren't "essential" to the trade, so kids can focus more on the actual jobs they'll be doing.
more info here:
TOTAL DISASTER!!!! 🤦🤦🤦🤦