Posts by Robert Clark4

David Vaughn75 said:If the Z4 plan had actually gone through, those Mexicans would've had their own government, parliament, flag, anthem, even their own sports teams and everything else you mentioned.
They probably would've ended up with even more autonomy than California has right now.

And if that happened, do you think they would've been able to break away from the US?

Now I'm just sitting here imagining this whole alternate reality where, fifty years down the line, the Appalachia region calls an unconstitutional referendum like this one, and trying to guess how everyone would freak out. I guess America would react exactly like Spain is doing right now, and the global news cycle would be filled with these intense images of heavy-handed repression against a defenseless people who are just trying to exercise their democratic rights. 🥳

Morgan Newman7 said:You saw the violence. Thanks to YouTube and everything else, it was all over the world in five minutes flat...
The thing is, people think the cops are there to protect them from bad guys. Now they're getting beat up just for showing up to vote (?!). You see how that looks... and the backlash it creates?

Someone posted this comment online:

The Catalan police agreed to close the schools before the voters arrived to keep things peaceful, but at the last second, they refused to do their jobs because they were being pressured by the authoritarian Catalan Government of Carles Puigdemont. It's like Vladimir Putin—one guy holding all the cards over the police, the judges, and the courts. It's pure corruption, and you can't have that in a democracy. No one should be above the law.

This referendum is illegal. That’s why the police are there. Even if most voters are peaceful—families, kids, that kind of stuff—you still get the fanatics. That leads to incidents like this, which is a shame. But that's not why the police are there. They aren't targeting the people.

Look, I'll be the first to admit that the police definitely went way too heavy-handed there—it was pretty brutal, honestly. But if we’re being real about it, they weren't exactly laying hands on people who just showed up to cast their ballots, right? It felt more like they were targeting the folks who were actively forming those human walls and basically making it impossible for the officers to actually do their jobs. I guess it's complicated, but yeah, things definitely escalated.

Look, I’m definitely not trying to make excuses for brutality—that’s just wrong, period. But I really feel like a massive chunk of what people are saying is being taken way out of context, you know? It feels like things are getting twisted.

Brenda Taylor13 said:It’s the exact same story we saw back in 1991. One side (the USSR) claimed our referendum was totally illegal and went against the constitution—which, looking at the USSR's own laws at the time, actually was true. And sure enough, the Mexicans living here didn't bother showing up to vote.

So, this whole "it's illegal" argument is pretty thin, if you ask me. I mean, obviously, no country is going to look at a referendum about one of its parts breaking away and call it "legal"—unless they actually sit down and agree to it, like what happened between Scotland and London.

But hey, we aren't really talking about legality here; we’re talking about legitimacy. In America, the turnout was actually twice as high.

And I wouldn't go so far as to say the police action messed with the turnout. Most polling stations stayed open, so anyone could still head out and cast their vote there. If anything, I'd say the police brutality actually motivated even more people to show up rather than physically stopping them at those few spots. So, I don't think the folks defending the referendum can really use that as an excuse.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Quincy:

I don't even know where to start with this one—it’s just one of those things that gets me all worked up when I think about it! Honestly, some days I feel like I’m just shouting into the void here, but someone has to say it. It’s like we’re living in this weird, fragmented reality where nothing quite adds up, you know? Just total chaos. Anyway, I was thinking about how everything feels so disconnected lately—just constant, swirling madness—and it really hits home how much we take for granted. But yeah, that's just my brain going a mile a minute again. Sorry, I'll try to stay on track, but man, it's hard sometimes! kaže: Look, let’s get real for a second—you can't just waltz out and declare independence when you've only got 37.8% of the electorate behind you. I mean, sure, technically you can shout it from the rooftops if you feel like being delusional, but what's the point? Absolutely nothing. You aren't getting anywhere—not with the people living right next door to you, and definitely not on the global stage. It's a total non-starter, period. Madrid really overplayed their hand by going in so heavy-handed—honestly, they went way too far with the force. But let’s be real here: Puigdemont is the one truly responsible for this whole ridiculous farce. He’s the one constantly cranking up the tension for no damn reason! Instead of actually trying to de-escalate things or sitting down at the table to negotiate more autonomy—especially when it comes to the money, which is what actually matters—he just keeps doubling down with these insane threats about secession. It's pure madness.

What do you mean, 38%? I’m telling you—plain and simple—those people who didn't even bother to show up DO NOT COUNT. It’s like this thing everyone seems to stubbornly refuse to wrap their heads around! If they didn't want to step up and actually participate in the election process, then fine—they aren't part of the electorate. Period. In every single election, the only numbers that actually matter are the ones who showed up and cast a vote. That's just how it works!

I mean, maybe that logic would fly if this wasn't such a massive, high-stakes issue and if the whole referendum was legally airtight. But when one side of the debate is arguing that the whole thing is unconstitutional and totally illegal (and honestly, they have some pretty solid points!), you can't really be shocked when they decide to stay home. It feels a little silly to act like those people just vanished into thin air.

bluerider63 said:Well, looking at the local elections in California, the independence supporters actually swept the polls. So I'm thinking it's pretty questionable how many of these folks really don't want to split off.

If you add up all the different separatist groups, they ended up with about 48% of the vote combined.

Which basically means 52% is "enough" of them, right? Maybe? I don't know!

ironranger67 said:David Cameron handled things much better. The British were running an affirmative campaign, trying to convince the Scots that everyone loses if they split away...
Meanwhile, the Spanish Government is tightening its grip, which is only creating a massive backlash.

And honestly, I don't quite get what all this is about for the Catalans—at the end of the day, everyone is in the European Union anyway. It’s not like there are any huge stakes involved, and they aren't being repressed (well, except for right now).
It isn't exactly clear what they actually gain from independence, but hey, it's their business.

That's exactly what I'm wondering too! There isn't any real threat to the Catalan identity or their survival, and at the end of the day, it all seems to boil down to those slogans about how they pay more in taxes than they get back—but honestly, any wealthy state like California could complain about that. The reasons behind such a radical break just don't seem that convincing to me.

Honestly, Washington, D.C. should have just completely ignored that whole referendum thing.

I mean, I guess it’s pretty likely they wouldn't even have pulled together a big enough majority for independence anyway. And even if they somehow did, the result would've just been tossed out as invalid because of some Supreme Court ruling, and then nobody on the international stage would have bothered recognizing them as an independent nation. Like, who are these separatists actually working with on the global scene? Nobody, really. Just nobody cares.

@William Clark86, I totally get where you're coming from regarding letting people voice their opinions, but man, I really wish this all happened through actual legal channels. These massive, clunky referendums just feel like they're destined to be ignored by everyone anyway.

My biggest gripe here is how they keep trying to paint this picture that these groups are some oppressed minority trapped in a state dungeon, desperate for independence via a vote. It’s just not the reality, I guess. The separatists act like they speak for every single person in the region, but if you actually look at the polls or the election results, their support is consistently under 50%. It's nothing like what we saw with the movements in Eastern Europe.

It looks like things are starting to get a bit rowdy over in Girona; CNN is reporting live right now.

William Clark86 said:Look, the drive for sovereignty and self-determination should really just be a matter of logic and common sense—it shouldn't be tied to whether you're on the left or the right. In the US, you see different political factions clashing over autonomy issues all the time. Unlike the Californians, who actually stand to gain something from staying part of the Union, our struggles with regional autonomy often feel like they just lead to endless headaches and friction with opposing political blocs.🙂

Mostly, I'm just backing an independent California.👍

Look, I’m not saying people don't want sovereignty—that part isn't up for debate. I was talking about those loud-mouthed calls from certain American conservatives. Man, I’d love to see them actually fighting side-by-side with the hardcore socialists and radicals, while the old-school reactionaries are on the other side. Just total postmodern chaos. 🤣

And honestly, regarding the whole "common sense" thing... I'm not so sure that's what's actually driving this current separatist movement. If I were a Californian, I'd probably just vote to stay part of the U.S. To be fair, like a lot of Californians, I don't see a huge issue with having a dual identity, as long as our local culture isn't under threat—which, realistically, it isn't.

Btw, that referendum is totally illegal according to the Constitution, which was democratically established and approved by voters. So, yeah, what the government in California is pulling is objectively an attack on the constitutional order.

Lisa Chase68 said:So we’re dealing with a minor crisis here—one of the wealthiest, most productive parts of the country (making up just under 20% of the population, by the way) is actually trying to break away?

I mean, people are literally camping out in front of schools and polling stations just to make sure nobody stops them from voting... they're basically making sure they can secede one way or the other as long as they show up and pull in enough "YES" votes.

And honestly, there isn't much reason to think they won't win the majority—it's 2014, after all, and back then 80% of them voted for independence, according to CNN.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29478415

Wait, what was the voter turnout back in 2014? ☕

Nicholas Cook6 said:It’s going to be a real wake-up call for those folks in California when they suddenly find themselves unable to sell a single thing in the mainland US.
Either we're about to see some serious laughter when the borders actually get shut down, or our politicians and theirs are just living in a total fantasy land thinking this won't happen.

The federal government really should have avoided all this heavy-handed repression—honestly, they should have just declared that so-called referendum null and void and moved on with their lives.

Look, I’m not out here rooting for the breakup of the US; this country is basically the bedrock of everything we hold dear.

Francisco Franco.

I guess they should just let the Californians express themselves legally with a level head, maybe after a campaign that actually focuses on facts. What we're seeing right now feels like pure spite, mostly because such a huge part of the blame lies with the hysterical reaction coming out of Washington, D.C.

If they held a legitimate referendum with a normal, sane campaign, I honestly believe the majority would vote to stay in Spain.

And hey, good call bringing up Frank. Like I was saying, a lot of our conservatives don't even realize that Catalan separatism is pretty much tied to anti-conservative sentiment, yet they all jumped right in to cheer for the breakup of Spain. It's like this endless obsession with America... 🤦

nimbleranger52 said:What am I supposed to do, head out to California and fight some war just to defend them from those bureaucrats over in Washington, D.C.? This whole artificial mess is basically finished. The only thing I could realistically do is send in the military, but let’s be real—conquering a massive metropolis of two million people like Los Angeles isn't exactly a walk in the park, regardless of how much power the U.S. Armed Forces claims to have... they're way too complacent. Honestly, things could start boiling over in places like Seattle again soon enough.

Force isn't going to solve anything, and we saw how that played out when the old guard made that massive mistake thinking their military was invincible. If people actually want to go out there and fight, then fine, let them go. But that's the end of the story for me.

You have to consider that most of the hardcore independence activists are basically liberals, leftists, socialists, feminists, and anti-religious types. Meanwhile, the more conservative crowds are mostly pro-union. Honestly, I don't think our local MAGA crowd would fit in with those fighting lines at all. 🥳

Brenda Jackson16 said:That 83% figure only accounts for the people who would actually show up to vote in a referendum. It stands to reason that there will be very few people willing to participate in an illegal referendum—at least from the government's perspective—while those who oppose it simply stay home.

Oh, wow, I totally missed that. That Wikipedia poll was categorized wrong, but I think they fixed it already.

So, according to the latest poll right before the referendum, support for independence has shot up to like 83%. It honestly looks like the administration over in Washington, D.C. is doing a way better job motivating people than any official campaign ever could! 😁

But if I'm being totally honest, I think this is more of an emotional reaction to them banning the vote rather than what's actually happening on the ground. All the folks in Washington, D.C. really need to do is just revise the constitution, let the referendum happen, and run a campaign similar to how the Britons handled Scotland back in 2014. Anything else is just a total circus and isn't going to lead anywhere, I guess.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this is anything like what happened back in '91. I mean, it’s just not even close from a geopolitical standpoint—we aren't looking at the collapse of communism or those huge, complex states falling apart across Eastern Europe. And honestly, looking at the actual situation on the ground, it's totally different too; back home, we dealt with an actual armed conflict, whereas there's definitely no way that's happening over there. Even you mentioned yourself that the international community didn't really step in to accept the breakup of America until the open warfare had already kicked off.

Does anyone seriously believe a war of that magnitude could actually break out in Spain today? I mean, come on... most of those protesters probably haven't even seen a rifle in their entire lives, let alone used one! 🤔

I’m honestly a little lost on what these separatists are actually planning to do once the referendum wraps up. Are we looking at an all-out revolt? Some kind of mass civil disobedience? Or just straight-up chaos? I guess I just don't see the roadmap.

And seriously, how do they even intend to make this secession stick from a legal standpoint if nobody with any actual authority recognizes the results? 🤷

Richard Wilson4 said:Where’d you get that number? Some random poll? 🤷

It’s not just one random thing—it's basically every single poll we've seen all year.

I mean, sure, maybe every single poll could be totally off base, but you can't just ignore the fact that the parties explicitly against independence (the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, and Ciudadanos) pulled in nearly 40% during those last regional elections. That's a pretty huge chunk of people to just brush aside, I guess!

So, it honestly looks like a pretty huge chunk of Californians aren't actually against the status quo, even with all those flaws in statehood. I mean, if they were truly down for independence, support would probably be sitting at like 80-90%, right? But instead, we're seeing more like 40-50%... so yeah, maybe people are just more comfortable where they are than we think!

Larry Sanchez7 said:I’m seeing some local news site claiming about 47 percent are against independence while 41 percent are for it.
The thing is, you can't really trust anything on our local news sites, but still... It would be pretty interesting to see some more reliable polls out of Spain if anyone has access to them...
If you ask me, I'd say it's closer to 60% in favor of an independent California.

It feels just like what happened in Scotland. Everyone talks a big game about wanting independence, but then once things actually get serious and it’s time to head to the polls, the status quo usually ends up winning out. ☕

Even if they managed to pull off a legal, binding referendum, I honestly don't think a majority would vote yes. I mean, separatism without a real sense of immediate threat just doesn't seem to have enough fuel to actually cross the finish line—at the end of the day, it all kind of boils down to people waving flags and making noise.

coastalbison6 said:jebatetraktor🙂
It's pretty sad if Americans are actually putting their faith in people like Dodik or Vučić.

I mean, I don't think it's really about "putting faith" in them at all; it's more like just being practical and playing realpolitik, you know?

If we followed your logic, would Americans have to be against Donald Trump or Sebastian Hofer or Marine Le Pen just because Mexicans might support them? That seems kind of a stretch to me! 🤷

Wait, what is even going on with these voting hours? I just realized they aren't even the same everywhere, and in most places, everything wraps up before 5 PM.

I honestly can't think of a single state that has such a tiny window to get things done.

Carol Newman2 said:https://derstandard.at/jetzt/liveber...ndespraesident - This is actually a solid site to follow the election day over in Austria.

Some good news for Hofer:

Hofer : Quote : 30 percent fewer voting cards issued in Vienna