Posts by Roger Kern16

Peter Murphy6 said:So, what’s your Enneagram saying?🙂

Where does that hunger for info actually come from? You mentioned panic... do you basically define your existence by how much "not knowing" is left to solve? Does it drive you crazy—or does it "give you life"?
How does it feel when you finally "know"?
And how do you feel when someone starts questioning what you know?

Hey, this is way too interesting🎉 It's a total rabbit hole of research. 🙂 Here if anyone wants to dive in like I did: 😬

https://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test
http://similarminds.com/advtest.html

I keep getting these triple results—8, then a tiny 2-millimeter difference, and a slightly weaker 4 on both links after running them a few times.
Honestly, I love the clean beauty of those even numbers and how logically they fit together—8:2=4.🐔

I'm all about even numbers; odd ones just create this weird, asymmetrical discomfort.🕺

As for Jung—I didn't even notice any connection to the types at first. It was easier to remember the questions than the actual type names; for me, it was more about having fun than studying. Only recently did I see the link and get actually interested.
"Great," said my ego—as if it wasn't already hitting the ceiling.🙄

Type 4, type 9, then type 5; 4w5. I’d bet my life that a few years ago, that five was way higher on my scale. 😁

Intriguing questions. I was actually spiraling through these exact thoughts recently. I think the core driver is just innate curiosity, but sometimes it gets tangled up with something slightly pathological that just leaves me frustrated. When it's pure curiosity, I usually hit that hyperfocus state—almost like a "flow"... but when it's the other thing, it's driven by this existential anxiety. Like I'm missing the point of everything. Or that I get too excited about one thing and jump to the next too fast and lose focus. That I'm not diving deep enough into, say, philosophy. That I'm wasting my limited time... not knowing myself well enough... etc., etc. Basically, it's this feeling that the big truths are slipping through my fingers and I can't quite grasp them or make them part of my actual life.
I rarely ever feel like I "know" things. Knowledge always feels like it's just two steps ahead of me... I'm not even sure I'd recognize the sensation if I felt it. 😬 I've noticed I tend to dodge debates that aren't really about being curious, but are more about people just trying to ego-trip and prove they're bigger than everyone else. It probably stems from my own insecurities, but I just don't have the urge to put myself out there just to engage in some mental tug-of-war. This "exhaustion" might also be explained by toxins from my last relationship, because I don't think I used to be like this... but that's a whole different rabbit hole, never mind that for now. 😁

What about you two? (And everyone else lurking) How much does your drive for knowledge differ from mine?

Joseph Bailey41 said:Since this is a Jungian system, the goal isn't really to change who you are, but rather to become more aware of how you function. You should stay as consistent as a classic rock legend, but once those neglected functions start waking up, adjusting your behavior becomes much easier when life calls for it. Becoming extroverted isn't actually that hard; you just learn by imitating others and refine it with practice. People who only know me on a surface level think I'm an E because they have no idea that after playing the role of the charming socialite, I need to retreat to my room and hide under a blanket for a few hours just to recover. Basically, I'm socially exhausted even when I haven't had a drink. 😁

The whole thing with the J preference started making sense to me after I played around with my Fi function and realized I actually have that little internal voice telling me when something just doesn't feel right. Honestly, I'm as thrilled about this discovery as a toddler finding out they're a big kid. Up until now, it was always, "I can't make a decision because I don't have enough data," but now, I don't give a damn—I just look at whether I like something or not and go with that. Fi is great; you just have to trust it. (In your case, a similar thing might happen once you start trusting your own private thoughts more and ditch the feeling that everyone else knows something you don't. They don't—they're just acting like they do.)

As for triple results, that shouldn't happen within this framework. If it does, you probably need to look for a different system entirely. The Enneagram is also pretty interesting; it recognizes tritypes and offers more concrete directions for personal growth.

Personally, she’s dragged me so deep into those pathologies that I don't believe a word she says anymore. Lock her up until she fixes her vibe.

A similar thing might happen to you through some sort of analogy when you start trusting your own private thoughts more and finally ditch the feeling that everyone—including their grandmothers—knows something you don't. They don't. They're just pretending they do.)

Huh. "Trusting your private thoughts more"... sounds like an excuse for being closed off to progress or just being a slave to the ego. As long as I admit I don't know things, I get this frantic urge to learn everything possible. Then again, that mindset usually just leaves me stuck in a submissive role, acting like an ear for everyone else's pseudo-wisdom. I guess actual wisdom lives somewhere in the middle...

Joseph Bailey41 said:http://infj-mbti.tumblr.com/post/121...-the-functions

This gives you a pretty solid breakdown of how functions develop. Based on this diagram, the way you approach things like chess or similar mental gymnastics is actually developing Ti, not Te. (I find that fascinating, because I often catch myself deep in these Fi activities, and both of those feel more like tinkering with a "devilish" eighth function rather than an inferior fourth.)

I’d also suggest another useful way to work on Te: debating on forums. And I don't mean just casual reading, sharing personal stories, or agreeing with people—I mean getting into the weeds. (Within the forum rules, obviously, because I don't want to sound like I'm encouraging bad behavior here. 😬) You pick an opponent who is a "worthy adversary" and have a real debate with them on a specific topic. Forums are great for this because there's a written record—you can see when you let someone trigger a negative emotional reaction, when you resorted to cheap ad hominem attacks (which is your inferior Te under stress), and when you managed to stick to logical arguments and elegantly deflect their hits. Think of it like fencing; try to improve your technique. While you're at it, watch how others do it and try to mimic a maneuver you like. Or join a debate club. Or just watch those old romantic comedies where characters spend ninety minutes sniping at each other before finally falling into each other's arms. Something like that. You'll probably think of something else eventually. 😁

The forum keeps my inferior functions in check:

You basically defined people who aren't interested in anything except having their own biases confirmed.
Just incredibly lazy when it comes to using Google.

I'm not quite following your train of thought here... which of those two groups are you talking about? And why on earth are you linking laziness to divergent versus convergent thinking?

Joseph Bailey41 will probably have more intel on that triple result mystery 😁. Honestly, I’m pretty curious about those three... I can't just walk away from an NF combo that easily. As for the whole E-I or perceiving vs. judging thing, I feel like if I actually worked on those functions, my quality of life might actually improve. Most of my issues seem to stem from being too much of a "P" type anyway. Plus, I've always felt like those three types are way more grounded than my own (INFP)... maybe one day I'll try to come down from these dizzying heights without losing the core of who I am.

I'm just not cut out to be an INTJ. 😳

Btw, what are the odds that some of these functions actually shift down the line... like, swapping an I for an E, or a P for a J? Whether it’s just aging or actual intentional work. I have to admit, I'm kind of curious what it's like to actually be an ENTP, an INFJ, or an ENFJ.

Joseph Bailey41 said:http://infj-mbti.tumblr.com/post/121...-the-functions

This gives you a pretty solid breakdown of how functions develop. Based on this diagram, the way you approach things like chess or similar mental gymnastics is actually developing Ti, not Te. (I find that fascinating, because I often catch myself deep in these Fi activities, and both of those feel more like tinkering with a "devilish" eighth function rather than an inferior fourth.)

I’d also suggest another useful way to work on Te: debating on forums. And I don't mean just casual reading, sharing personal stories, or agreeing with people—I mean getting into the weeds. (Within the forum rules, obviously, because I don't want to sound like I'm encouraging bad behavior here. 😬) You pick an opponent who is a "worthy adversary" and have a real debate with them on a specific topic. Forums are great for this because there's a written record—you can see when you let someone trigger a negative emotional reaction, when you resorted to cheap ad hominem attacks (which is your inferior Te under stress), and when you managed to stick to logical arguments and elegantly deflect their hits. Think of it like fencing; try to improve your technique. While you're at it, watch how others do it and try to mimic a maneuver you like. Or join a debate club. Or just watch those old romantic comedies where characters spend ninety minutes sniping at each other before finally falling into each other's arms. Something like that. You'll probably think of something else eventually. 😁

My gut was heading in a similar direction, though maybe I took the whole "finding an equal opponent" thing a bit too far. 😳 Now I've basically bonded with sociopaths and learned a ton from them... it's been quite the ride. 😬

When it comes to sensing types, maybe they just seem boring to you. You probably dodge them because you aren't sure what you'd even talk about. It gets easier once you integrate Si—just find some sensory hobby like cooking, crochet, gardening, martial arts, or even pole dancing...

Yeah, it’s rare that we actually have something to talk about. Sometimes I feel like it's because they mostly stay on the surface level of things, but it's more likely that we just disagree on how deep we should dive into a topic.

After that, it’s your turn to work on integrating your inferior function (Te). You already have it, but you probably only tap into it during high-stress moments, usually just to spit out some perfectly crafted insult at someone who stepped on your toes. Your type is prone to those... well, let's call them "unique" value judgments. 🤣

So, how does inferior Te actually develop? I find myself slipping into this opposite, ice-cold rationalization mode where I don't even recognize myself... but that's usually when I feel threatened. So, stress-induced, maybe?

And then there's... the INFP person tendency toward complexes regarding their own Cognitive Styles. On one hand, they take pride in being unique and eccentric, but on the other, they desperately want to develop that linear, left-brain thinking. They end up gravitating toward fields like computer science, law, or similar professions that don't actually interest them much, but they think it'll help them "improve."

Both sides are kind of true. I would never disown my Cognitive Styles; they've saved my skin countless times when solving creative or crisis-level problems, and I've learned to rely on them. But I also catch myself doing this weird mental left-brain gymnastics, like playing chess and stuff... mostly because I feel like that side of my brain is totally atrophied. 🤣

Anyway, thanks for explaining these cognitive functions. I've never really dug into them this deeply before.

If this is just spam, then honestly, bring it on. I’m looking forward to more... 😬
I’m an INFP (scoring high on all four functions). Though, I’ve gotta say, Joseph Bailey41, you have me a bit puzzled when you claim the answer to this whole debate is hidden within the "N" function. Most people I know seem to be intuitive types too—I can barely find one close friend who leans toward "S" for some reason—yet almost none of them actually relate to the thought processes described on the previous pages. Maybe it’s just a percentage thing or something...

Edit: Actually, you mentioned that T is linear thinking while N is associative. If we follow that logic, associative thinking should be most prominent in those with an NF combination. Looking at the people around me, that actually seems to track quite well.

Lawrence Bailey77 said:The artist, the art. It’s a concept that carries such heavy, often exhausting weight, isn't it? I find myself pondering whether we can ever truly separate the creator from the creation, though perhaps that’s a futile endeavor. One wonders if the essence of the work exists independently, or if it remains forever tethered to the psyche of its maker. It’s a messy, complicated relationship, I suppose. Maybe there is no distinction at all. 🙂 I realize how intimidating it can be when you're surrounded by such blatant primitivism, but honestly... it’s exhausting. In a truly advanced society, someone like this would actually be embraced; there would be support for their growth and development. But here? Here, you're viewed as nothing more than a threat simply because you pose a risk to the status quo of this local ignorance. I suppose that's just the way things work in places that refuse to evolve. ☕

It seems to possess a modicum more logic than those endless cycles of endless diagnoses, where psychiatry only serves its own self-serving purposes, or perhaps when one gets caught up in the tedious dragging out of treatments through alternative medicine. I suppose it’s all just a bit much. ☕

Quinn:

I wonder if there is any merit in attempting to draw a connection here to, say, bipolar disorder or perhaps ADHD, or if we are looking at something else entirely. I suppose it’s difficult to say for certain without more data, but one might consider if there is an underlying link to something else altogether.

I suppose it all depends on who is actually initiating the connection. It’s a matter of perspective, really. 🙂 I suppose I should frame these inquiries within the broader context of intelligence itself. It seems somewhat futile, really, though perhaps necessary. If we assume that we actually "exist" within a universe governed by cause and effect, then the answers provided aren't even remotely close to being intelligent. Or maybe they are; it’s hard to say for certain. 😉

Do you actually practice any kind of art? Does this whole associative/divergent processing thing help your craft, or does it just get in the way?

Peter Murphy6 said:The rooms, the drawers, the doors—all those mental spaces aren't some cozy escape hatch I decorate just to hide away. Not at all. They’re more like tools for my emotions and analysis—basically part of my internal machinery.
Even my thoughts aren't an exit strategy from reality; they're how I make sense of it.
If you find yourself retreating into your own head, maybe that's where the glitch is?

For me, what I just described isn't separate from who I am. It's not some distinct little world tucked inside me (even though most people basically live in their own private universes)
I don't struggle with focusing on thoughts. Maybe it's because it just happens automatically—I tend to lock onto that first thought right away. That’s why I can ramble about something for three hours straight and then effortlessly loop back to where I started. Maybe you could try creating a "starting point" in your mind? Like, memorize it using associations—giving a thought a physical shape or a visual cue.
Say, I start talking about human psychology, and somehow end up drifting toward Chaos and the organization of the universe 🤣
Psychology might trigger a specific color in my mind, or an emotion, or even a visual image. Like, psychology might remind me of a box, and just like that, I’ve anchored the original thought.

Yeah, it's under my control because I actually designed the system to fit how my brain works. Before that, it was pure Chaos—just totally unfocused. That’s why I used to stop myself from drifting too much. You have control here. This isn't some alternate dimension; it’s just you.

It's interesting you mention resisting labels. It feels like you're working really hard to fit into a specific diagnosis. I get it—it’s easier that way. You push back against being boxed in, yet deep down, you’re desperate to find a category that explains you. Even when people act similarly, the "why" behind it is usually totally different. Humans are way too complex to be reduced to scientific or psychological patterns. Those are just templates.
If I'm reading you right, instead of your mental processes working for you, you're working for them. Your "self" is the core.

I don't have a diagnosis. 🙂 I haven't looked for one either, though for a while, I was just like you—trying to squeeze myself into established frameworks. It feels easier, gives you a sense of belonging, but you don't actually end up meeting your true self.
I actually met myself because that’s the upside of this kind of process—if you keep it under wraps. You can see the big picture so much more clearly. Now, if it messes with your daily life or how you deal with people, then yeah, that's a problem. But if it's just a matter of lacking control, that’s something you can "easily" learn.

What’s happening in your head can go either way—it could be a massive gift or a huge burden. I know.
Honestly, sometimes the best way to figure out who you are is to just let go—to let yourself get swept up in your own existence. I don't even know how to put it. I don't know how much you're holding yourself back...

I've studied psychology and psychiatry on my own as deeply as I could—not necessarily to explain who I am now, but to trace how I got here, to figure out what parts are "me" and what parts were just shaped by my upbringing.

This is probably where my issue lies. It’s highly likely I’m blurring the line between actual thought processes and some kind of dissociation or heavy daydreaming. I haven't dealt with this before—spending this much time stuck inside my own head... it's getting weird. I've been reading up on Jungian active imagination and how creativity works in general, and honestly? I think I might have mixed a few concepts together...

Quinn:

Yeah, I’m running the show now because I actually designed a system that matches how my brain works. Before I figured this out, everything was just pure Chaos... totally unfocused. That's why I used to try and stop my thoughts from drifting all over the place. But look, you’re the one in control here. It isn't some mystical realm existing outside of yourself. It's just you...

Quinn:

I can't really offer much advice beyond this: you just have to see it for yourself. You need to figure out your own internal logic—your own little system, if you will—that helps bridge the gap between linear and non-linear thinking... making them actually play nice together. Once those two sides finally shake hands and become one cohesive way of understanding things, you'll start showing up as your best self. And honestly, when you're firing on all cylinders like that, everyone around you benefits too. But yeah... that's a solo mission. Everyone has to find their own way through it.

So, how does one actually design a principle? It’s not like you just pull it out of thin air and hope for the best... though some people certainly try. You can't just slap a label on a vibe and call it a rule. That’s how you end up with total Chaos. It’s more about finding that core logic... that underlying structure that holds everything together when things start falling apart. You have to strip away the noise. Get down to the bones of it. It’s almost like a Jungian deep dive into your own decision-making process... trying to find that one constant in a sea of variables. But honestly? Most people just wing it. They mistake a fleeting impulse for a foundational value. Big mistake. Huge. If you don't build the framework first, you're just drifting... and trust me, nobody wants to be adrift when the pressure hits. 😬 When you say "before," what exactly are we talking about? You both keep mentioning that this is a process everyone goes through on their own, but you’re being incredibly vague... like some kind of distant echo from a mile away... 😬 Then again, the intuitive side of me kind of gets it...

Quinn:

I wasn't even looking for her, though for a while there, I was doing exactly what you did... trying to force myself into those neat little boxes everyone uses. It’s easier that way, I guess. You get that sense of belonging, that feeling that you finally fit somewhere... but you aren't actually meeting your real self at all. Just chasing a label...

You hit the nail on the head there... even if I still verbally refuse to belong to any specific group. But honestly? Everything I’ve been doing over the last few months has just been one long, exhausting attempt to explain myself through some kind of label or diagnosis...

I’m actually pretty glad so many of you jumped in to weigh in on this. Thanks for all the comments and for sharing what you've been through... it definitely helps dial down the Chaos of the whole situation a bit. 😁
ps. what does any of this actually have to do with being creative? how are we supposed to make the most of it... do you guys paint, write, or just do something else entirely?
P.S. About that suspicion I mentioned... how am I supposed to handle this? It feels like there are at least ten different ways to look at it, and honestly, every single one of them could be right. I have no clue how to wrap my head around this one...

Peter Murphy6 said:Visualization really helps—though it all comes down to how creative you are.
My rule of thumb when things start spiraling out of control—which honestly feels more like one giant, "sticky" web of chaos to me—is that it’s time to categorize.
I can't move forward until I've sorted everything and identified what belongs where. If I don't categorize, the whole web just falls apart—the core info, the actual heart of the breakdown, just vanishes.

Here's how it looks in my head: there’s this massive, smooth, black void. Inside that space, I build a long hallway of doors. Each door has its own label. Behind those doors, you either find more doors (depending on how deep I need to go) or a section filled with "office drawers," which are also labeled.
Since you mentioned being a visual person, this setup might sound familiar. I actually use something similar to manage how I express emotions (not the feelings themselves, just the expression)—I have specific "rooms" for that.

I'm not sure how much one can actually stop analyzing, or if that's even necessary. My approach is basically studying myself until I figure out how to best use the tools I was born with. I don't want to suppress my nature unless it directly clashes with someone else's.

That's just how it works naturally—you explore who you are instead of molding yourself to fit someone else. At the end of the day, all our natures are part of the same "web." I can't live as an imitation. (I end up with these weird, disconnected conclusions that only make sense to me 🕺 )

By embracing your true nature, you unlock that intuitive side of yourself—that elusive core. You react to problems with this logical-intuitive blend. (To me, intuition is just knowledge you've reached through self-discovery without even realizing it. It's not some "predetermined impulse from the universe." 😬 )

This is so interesting. That door concept hits home for me—that space feels like a circular foyer full of portals, kind of like the level from Crash Bandicoot 2 I used to play as a kid. But for me, there's zero order or organization inside them. It's pure Chaos. I have no idea where things start or end, and I just get lost in the mess. That’s probably why I even started this thread... how do you actually get a chaotic thought process under control? Half the time, it feels like I'm not even driving; I just pick a topic and my mind takes the wheel and goes wherever it wants.

It seems like I'm missing that categorization step you mentioned, so my mental network just crashes constantly because it gets overloaded.
Are those office drawers something you actively organize, or does it just happen on its own? Is that whole system under your control, or are you just giving a detached description of how you process things?

I don't know how much it's even possible to stop analyzing, or if it would even be useful to try. I'm basically following the principle of studying myself to figure out how to best use what I've got. I don't want to suppress my nature unless it directly clashes with someone else's.

That's just how people are built. You explore your own nature; you don't mold it to fit someone else's. And at the end of the day, all our "networks" are essentially the same. I can't live an imitation. (I end up with these weird, disconnected conclusions that only make sense to me 🕺 )

I relate to this so much. Everything from the intense over-analyzing (mostly inward, which has been giving me major headaches lately) to the aggressive resistance against any kind of forced structure or framework.

I also deal with these mental "fogs"—kind of like when a laptop screen freezes up—especially lately with all the stress and deadlines. I often can't just "unlock" information on command. Like, if someone gives me a topic, I can't just elaborate on it immediately; I usually pull pieces out in fragments through associations or by relating it to something else. Does any of this sound familiar to you?

Do you have a diagnosis, or have you found anything in psychology or psychiatry that talks about all this? I'm totally lost...

William Roberts3 said:That question is just part of that specific mindset of yours—seeing things through a different lens while simultaneously questioning if you're actually seeing them right. Just recognize that moment where you're basically trying to map out your own version of reality, that constant need to double-check everything...

So, how do you handle problem-solving, for example?
Do you tend to jump straight to solutions that leave people totally blindsided at first, only for them to wonder later why they didn't see it themselves?
And do you actually visualize your thoughts as you're processing them?

You nailed it. Uncertainty and doubt are basically permanent side effects of how my brain processes things... especially when there's no tangible proof in the physical world to back up what I'm thinking. Or, you know, when what I'm trying to describe makes zero sense to anyone else. It ties back to that fragmentation, that non-linear, associative chaos happening inside my head that looks totally nonsensical from the outside. The more I dwell on something, the more abstract it gets. It’s like everything branches out into this endless labyrinth, just unlocking more questions instead of answers.
Anyway, it makes making decisions or giving straight answers a total nightmare.

Quinn:

So, how do you handle problem-solving, for example? Do you find solutions quickly that leave people stunned at first, only for them to later wonder why they didn't see it themselves?

It fluctuates. It depends entirely on my mood and how much I actually care about the issue. I definitely experience what you described—sometimes my brain just serves up a solution out of thin air, purely through intuition. Other times, I'll get completely stuck on something incredibly simple. People usually react to my analogies with genuine surprise... for better or worse.😬

Quinn:

Do you visualize your thoughts?

Most of the time, yeah. My mind puts everything into some kind of visual context. It’s not like my thoughts are physically manifesting, per se, but more like there are constant visual associations tied to whatever I'm thinking about.

Are you speaking (well, asking) from personal experience? What exactly do you mean by that?

Alright. Maybe you could walk me through that thought a bit more? 😬

Does anyone else feel like their brain just operates on a completely different frequency than the rest of the population? It’s not like my thought process is a straight line... it’s more like a massive web of associations. I’m constantly spotting patterns and making connections that seem totally nonsensical to everyone else, using this alternative logic that only makes sense in my own head. Plus, I'm a super visual thinker—just constant imagery flashing around in my mind—though I guess maybe that isn't that weird.
And yeah, I often find myself hyper-analyzing the deep, complex layers of a situation while somehow completely missing the obvious, glaringly simple point right in front of me. 😬 My thoughts are incredibly fragmented and abstract... they’re hard to pin down, let alone control.

Does it make sense to link all this to something like bipolar disorder or ADHD, or is it something else entirely?

Joseph Bailey41 said:Off course. 😬

😬

Everything around me is screaming—boiling point, go see a therapist, I’m starting to wonder what all that's about... 🤣
(just kidding, thanks.)

Does anyone else deal with this? That total, bone-deep paralysis right when a major deadline is looming... It’s like one vague, undefined task drags this massive weight of negative emotions behind it, creating this perfect storm for future meltdowns. It becomes a cycle.
At what point does this shift from "just stress" to an actual clinical issue? What could be driving this, and how do people usually handle it?

For me, it feels like I’m being ejected from my own body. I just sit there, watching these deadlines and life-changing opportunities drift past me like I'm observing them through a window. It's almost like sleep paralysis... except with all these nasty aftershocks once I finally "wake up."
:help:

I’ve been lurking on this Reddit for about 9 years now—at least, according to the registration dates on my old accounts where I lost all my passwords 😬... I’ve read through everything, including Psychic, though I could never quite manage to stay active, except for lurking on a few specific threads. Honestly, reading about everyone else's experiences on Psychic helped me so much during low points when I was feeling pretty isolated. I’m sure I’m not the only one. Plus, the crowd hanging out here just gets me... feels like home. 😬