Posts by placidharbor7

briskraven28 said:Look, Kenneth Peterson5, I am no Master—nor am I John—but I find the question intriguing enough to attempt an answer... by posing a question of my own;
how can any individual claiming to be "awakened" identify a lie if they lack the awareness that they are deceiving themselves? By the very "nature" of this supposed "awakening," wouldn't lie and truth be nothing more than non-existent categories?

Kenneth Peterson5, do throw in a smiley face or something—just to prove you’re actually a human being made of flesh and blood.
Ta-ta! 😁

Look, the intellect is just a tool for logic; it isn't the engine of awakening.
An awakened person actually maintains their sense of "self" even after the shift happens. It’s that very "self" that easily measures the quality of any deception. Think about it—a kabbalist's lie is massive compared to the tiny slip-ups of an enlightened soul. So, in reality, the kabbalist's error is much more significant! Because of that, an awakened person can just brush off a kabbalist's nonsense with a casual flick of their pinky finger.

Kenneth Peterson5 says:

Oh, placidharbor7!
Isn't it just more practical to stay quiet when you're trying to reach a state of AWAKENING, especially if the person listening simply isn't capable of actually HEARING you?

Brian Foster3 said:👍

Best,

That was your diagnosis back then, Brian Foster3! You even swapped out your emojis.👎

Brian Foster3 said:That right there is just an excuse for you to run your mouth. I see exactly what you're doing, and let me tell you, it has absolutely nothing to do with fighting lies or speaking the truth—it’s all about feeding your own ego. You’re basically just playing these little mental games, sowing doubt and tossing out vague, useless advice like you're some kind of guru. It’s nothing more than pure distraction. As for my mission to crush lies? All I have to do in your case is bring you back down to earth. Nothing personal, really. Unlike you, I actually understand that everything bears fruit in its own time.

You can't even begin to suppress a lie unless the Seeker recognizes it first.
And how does one recognize a lie? By having the guts to stand up and voice their own current Truth.
Don't be so afraid, you disharmony! You're shaking in your boots. placidharbor7 could rip the rug of your ego right out from under you if he wanted to. Isn't that really why you're acting so defensive?

Kenneth Peterson5 said:Hey, placidharbor7,
How is any person supposed to fight off lies when they were born into them, raised in them, and surrounded by them every single day? It’s everywhere.
How can someone even tell what’s a lie and what’s the actual truth if they don't even realize they're lying to themselves in the first place?

Listen, placidharbor7,
Isn't it just common sense that being AWAKENED means staying quiet when the guy listening isn't even capable of HEARING you?

It’s actually quite simple; you fight a lie with another lie. For a true Seeker, it's enough just to cast aside the debunked lie and embrace the new one.

For a true Master, it’s enough to then nudge that Seeker toward transcending their own thought processes altogether.

Kenneth Peterson5 said:Hey, placidharbor7,
How is any person supposed to fight off lies when they were born into them, raised in them, and surrounded by them every single day? It’s everywhere.
How can someone even tell what’s a lie and what’s the actual truth if they don't even realize they're lying to themselves in the first place?

Listen, placidharbor7,
Isn't it just common sense that being AWAKENED means staying quiet when the guy listening isn't even capable of HEARING you?

AWAKENING doesn't follow rules, even though it does have a certain nature.

Brian Foster3 said:Look, just think about it for a second... if I actually felt ashamed, I wouldn't even be bothering to post here in the first place. But I'm not. The reality is, I have absolutely nothing to say to you because you're always playing the same old game: trying to pick a fight over every little thing just so you can act like you're some kind of genius or the most "awake" guy in the room 😁. It’s pathetic, really—you're just doing it to feed your own ego. Nothing special there. But man, I seriously can't talk to someone who operates like that. Go ahead, enjoy your little moment.

There’s a huge difference between you coming here to "post" and what your "enlightened idols" are actually doing.

If you truly had the guts of a real truth seeker, you'd be willing to lay your own soul bare, just to figure out who is leading you straight into hell and who is leading you toward Nowhere. Without some kind of personal epiphany first, you don't stand a chance of seeing through it.

The whole point of being AWAKENED is to shut down LIES, no matter who is telling them or what they call them. Just sit with that for a while and think about it.

Brian Foster3 said:It doesn't even register on my radar. If you're so happy spinning yarns, go ahead and keep dancing for your audience. 😉

It's like you're actually embarrassed by how much you're idolizing those clowns.

Brian Foster3 said:You hit the nail on the head. Kabbalah doesn't know squat about that "illumination blast," and if you ask me, they actually argue for the exact opposite when it comes to needing to share your personal awakening.
But let's be real, placidharbor7 doesn't know a single thing about Kabbalah either.

They hold the opposite position simply because they haven't the slightest inkling regarding the NATURAL, UNSTOPPABLE NECESSITY of broadcasting one's personal awakening to the whole world, truth seeker.

"Truth can be written on the back of a postage stamp," an old teacher once said. "But lies? Lies require entire volumes," as placidharbor7 adds.

Come on then, why don't you be a dear and share some of that wisdom from your illuminati? Just enough to give placidharbor7 a little nudge! Go ahead—tell us what those Cabalers of yours claim after they've supposedly "achieved" it.🙂

Brian Foster3 said:Look, it’s honestly ridiculous having to deal with someone who’s so incredibly arrogant and completely delusional that they actually think they have the right to claim the total number of awakened people in all of Kabbalah history is less than ten fingers. You're just talking nonsense at this point. I'm done feeding into your nonsense. ☕

AWAKENING is just like a sparrow perched on a branch—if you have truly AWAKENED, the whole world is going to know about it. Just ask that malicious Ali Mansur.

The Kabbalah is hermetic because it is MUTE, EXPOSED, and LIFELESS. It’s quite a feat, isn't it? That it has produced less AWAKENING than the number of fingers on just one hand. Things would have gone haywire regardless of whether there were Kabbalists involved or not.

The Kabbalah knows nothing about the ILLUMINATION BURST, disharmony. And it knows even less about the NECESSITY of revealing one's personal AWAKENING. Sapient s/r/at.

Brian Foster3 said:Well, thanks for finally coming clean about where you actually stand. Just keep drinking, keep sipping ... 😁

So, what are we supposed to do about this total count of Kabbalah-awakened souls? We're talking fewer than ten people in the entire history of the Kabbalah!
Seriously, just relax and enjoy the ride!😢

Brian Foster3 said:It sounds totally insane, I know, but you actually have to grow and expand the ego to make it happen—not that animalistic, everyday ego, but a spiritual one.
Because look, once the ego reaches a certain scale, it’s finally ready to handle what placidharbor7 keeps hammering home: the gateway into the spiritual. But first, you have to want it with everything you've got. No holding back. And let's be real, most of us are still lugging around these massive leftovers of selfish desire that just drag us away from the goal. All those little things we want "for ourselves"—they're still there, they have to be, because you need that opposition to create perception...

By the way, I'm totally with you on the idea that humanity evolves in cycles. You see it clearly when you look at the concept of reincarnation.
Every cycle has its own start and finish, full of peaks and absolute crashes. It's those highs and lows combined that actually drive our progress forward.
If you step back and look at the big picture, the entire human organism moves through these repeating loops. The real question, though, is whether there's an actual stopping point—some final destination—or if the whole point is just to exist within infinity.
The fact that everything we've ever known is in constant motion points straight toward infinity.

And here comes another absurd answer for you: the stopping point, the destination, *is* infinity. In the Kabbalah, they call it Ein Sof (without end). We all originated from there, fell down here, and now we're trying to earn our way back to that "state," but this time fully aware and fully formed. At the beginning, we were nothing more than a seed. This whole evolutionary process is just the growth and unfolding of that seed called Creation, which finds its peak in Humanity. But I'm talking about the spiritual human—the one who actually perceives the divine—not just your average Joe walking around every day...

That "entry into the spiritual" is a wild ride; there's a kind of hell waiting before you enter, a struggle within the journey itself, and a challenge before you finally emerge. And once you truly step out of that illusion? There's no going back.😢

Brian Foster3 said:And look, reason is just another thing or phenomenon—honestly, it’s nothing more than a tool used to get what you want, and desire is pure matter.

If everything is NATURAL, then everything is ONE.
Are you catching the NATURAL POINT of reality, truth seeker? That point is AWAKENING right where you stand.🙂

That kind of instant, on-the-spot awakening happens... but only when a person is actually ready and built up enough to handle it. It hasn't happened before if they aren't ready. If someone catches a glimpse of perfection out of nowhere, it's not because they earned it; it’s just handed down from above for a specific purpose, and it vanishes almost immediately. But that memory stays, haunting them, driving them to finally earn it for themselves one day. Once that happens, it never disappears again. Ever.

By the way, all this constant badgering about "waking up right now" feels like you're trying to shake fruit off a tree that hasn't even bloomed yet.

But if the tool itself is just pure visualization, then there isn't really anything left—neither the tool nor the result!🙂

Brian Foster3 said:And look, reason is just another thing or phenomenon—honestly, it’s nothing more than a tool used to get what you want, and desire is pure matter.

If everything is NATURAL, then everything is ONE.
Are you catching the NATURAL POINT of reality, truth seeker? That point is AWAKENING right where you stand.🙂

That kind of instant, on-the-spot awakening happens... but only when a person is actually ready and built up enough to handle it. It hasn't happened before if they aren't ready. If someone catches a glimpse of perfection out of nowhere, it's not because they earned it; it’s just handed down from above for a specific purpose, and it vanishes almost immediately. But that memory stays, haunting them, driving them to finally earn it for themselves one day. Once that happens, it never disappears again. Ever.

By the way, all this constant badgering about "waking up right now" feels like you're trying to shake fruit off a tree that hasn't even bloomed yet.

So, you're basically participating in a global conspiracy against the intelligence of the human race! I mean, come on, the entire history of the Kabbalah hasn't produced
nearly as many of these "awakenings" of yours as there are fingers on both hands.
Which means the catch is somewhere else entirely, Brian Foster3.
Find it, and then you'll actually wake up!

Brian Foster3 said:And look, reason is just another thing or phenomenon—honestly, it’s nothing more than a tool used to get what you want, and desire is pure matter.

If everything is NATURAL, then everything is ONE.
Are you catching the NATURAL POINT of reality, truth seeker? That point is AWAKENING right where you stand.🙂

That kind of instant, on-the-spot awakening happens... but only when a person is actually ready and built up enough to handle it. It hasn't happened before if they aren't ready. If someone catches a glimpse of perfection out of nowhere, it's not because they earned it; it’s just handed down from above for a specific purpose, and it vanishes almost immediately. But that memory stays, haunting them, driving them to finally earn it for themselves one day. Once that happens, it never disappears again. Ever.

By the way, all this constant badgering about "waking up right now" feels like you're trying to shake fruit off a tree that hasn't even bloomed yet.

It must be tough for placidharbor7 to deal with people who just fall off the tree on their own, without any shaking or even being called to it! What else are you going to do? Just sit there, all muddled up, pretending to be "spiritually" confused?😁

silentcyclist3 said:If that's true, how is it even possible to approach the unreachable spiritual realms? If we only exist as a whole through the ego, and the ego is exactly what prevents that contact?

Btw, I suppose I agree that humanity as an organism evolves in cycles. I see a clear parallel in the concept of reincarnation.
Every cycle has its beginning and its end. It carries its own peaks and valleys. Those highs and lows... they constitute growth. A step forward, I guess.
From a macro perspective, the organism moves through these cycles and loops. But the question remains—is there a stopping point? A final destination? Or perhaps the meaning is found within infinity itself.
The fact that everything we have ever known is in constant motion suggests infinity.

Don't be so gullible, silentcyclist3! Don't fall for the trap of "instant answers."
The person you're talking to likely has some sort of ULTIMATE PURPOSE in mind, and along with it, a SUPREME GOVERNOR. It’s just hidden monotheism wrapped up in a layer of secret clergy.

Why not just ask the gentleman: what is the PURPOSE behind existence itself?🙂

Brian Foster3 said:Hell no. But just because something is considered "natural" right now doesn't mean we shouldn't move past it; honestly, striving to reach a "higher nature" is the most natural thing in the world.

You're missing the whole NATURAL lesson here, truth seeker.

There is no inherent unity, because things and phenomena don't possess some sort of OBJECTIVE UNIFIED CHARACTER—instead, they exist because of the very nature of reason itself. It's our own reason that assigns attributes to everything we see and experience!

If everything were truly "natural" in the way you mean, then everything would be one single thing.
Do you see the NATURAL POINT of reality yet, truth seeker? That point is AWAKENING right where you stand.🙂

Brian Foster3 said:It's just nature, man. It's how we were built from day one. It isn't some "flaw" on our part—it’s just the way things are supposed to be.

Honestly, is there anything about being human that *isn't* natural?

briskraven28 said:You provide the synthesis—I handle the analysis. But without one, the other simply doesn't exist... let me attempt to explain why.😁

😁
I don't mean to suggest things would be quite as dramatic as your vivid description implies—perhaps life would actually be more harmonious without humanity entirely... My questions are aimed at this instead—and please, don't take this the wrong way regarding your apparent "acceptance" in your posts—I don't mean that negatively; rather, I see it as a byproduct of your capacity for synthesis—that "intuitive" quality you mentioned earlier—but how much do you believe a person can (or cannot) influence their existence through action—or even inaction—as you noted below? Can small shifts truly make life on this planet more beautiful or comfortable, or are we simply left to the whims of a higher power—God, the Cosmos, the Absolute, the One... whichever term resonates most with you?

Destructive thoughts and actions inevitably trigger destructive consequences for the one who commits them—take pedophiles or those "evil" doctors, for instance... 😈 And all those who feel that same way—they’re just crafting their own destruction, much like we do with our own messes... It is difficult to predict exactly what kind of twist of fate will trigger the collapse of the house of cards.

Destruction exists for a reason, doesn't it? What I’m actually wondering—which is essentially the same question as the one above—is whether humanity will always have to be just as destructive as it tries to be "constructive"... though I find that term difficult to even wrap my head around... in order to maintain that balance we discussed earlier. If that's the case, then everything is functioning exactly as it should, isn't it?

One is tasked with always striving for the greatest good—for oneself and for others—even when one knows the effort is futile because the outcome must be "tragic" for some higher purpose...

I agree regarding these "higher reasons"—though I wonder... what exactly do you imagine those "higher reasons" might be?

Once you finally grasp that—once you realize there is no such thing as "divine justice"—you stop sabotaging your own life by denying the one thing that actually matters... your spirit.

My imagination is far too vivid for my own good—I can conjure up a million different scenarios that feel equally plausible... though, much like yourself, I find myself wondering if this "synthesis" I'm picturing is actually real—or just another one of my delusions.
The reason I’m hitting you with these heavy questions is that—unlike the usual preachy, surface-level spiritualists out there—you actually seem authentic... which is a rare find.😁

according to one's own peace.

For a spirit that is restless by its very "nature," what does this "peace" even signify?
What does that peace mean to you—could you elaborate?

I don't mean that at all, because today's collective social intelligence is roughly on par with the IQ of a baboon's backside—and I realize that might be an insult to the baboon's backside, but inspiration is currently lacking—so one cannot rely on it to reach any higher understanding.

I agree, but isn't that just a consequence of that interplay between activity and passivity—that tension between destruction and creation?

Yes, refusal can stem from true understanding, in which case it ceases to be a matter of tolerance—merely passively enduring a situation—and becomes a matter of action.

Precisely—an active engagement with the living fabric around you, or rather, with a specific situation. Tolerance, nowadays, feels more like a fashion statement.

The state of the world is likely exactly as it ought to be, making it optimal—regardless of how difficult that is for me personally to accept at times.

Well, that "likely" suggests you aren't entirely certain whether it is so or not.
I feel much the same way...
Yet, many visitors to this forum are absolutely convinced they have everything figured out!😁

Edit: Oh, look, Master Ivan has joined us... this is getting interesting. 😁

briskraven28🤣, how on earth do you manage to raise such sharp objections against the "peripheral"? Your opponent's arguments rely heavily on the concept of "free will," which is honestly enough nonsense to justify just ignoring them altogether. They clearly don't know nearly as much as you do.

silentcyclist3 said:Fine then. I guess just keep clinging to that "V.S.P.Z.S." if the rest of the world doesn't get you. 🤷

"Don't get upset, man" — "The unAwakened simply cannot recognize the Awakened." (placidharbor7)

Why not try asking for things "step by step" instead?

silentcyclist3 said:Is this really your take on what was quoted?

Yeah—honestly, there’s no point in getting into the weeds here. It’s not like anyone in this thread has the depth to actually grasp Wilber’s trademark superficiality anyway. Well, except for those "V.S.P.Z.S." experts, I suppose! 🙄

Brian Foster3 said:I'll keep this short.

Everything we do is ultimately for ourselves. We never actually step outside our own egos; we're just selfish, plain and simple, and there’s no way to just grab hold of ourselves and somehow "rise above" that inherent selfishness. Even all this talk about "spirituality" on these forums is just another manifestation of an egoistic craving to be spiritual. Honestly, wanting to be spiritual is probably the most sophisticated, highly developed form of egoism there is.

True spirituality is anything that exists entirely outside the ego. Which means it's completely out of our reach and inaccessible to us. All we ever get are these tiny, fleeting glimpses through momentary flashes of love.

To truly *be* love—to put others before yourself and love them as much as you love yourself—that is the only actual spirituality. That's it. Period. But none of us are capable of it, and let's be real, none of us even want to do it. We just want to satisfy our own damn selves.

So, if that's the case, what kind of impulse or motivation is driving us to do what we do, truth seeker?

silentcyclist3 said:Here's a good Quote:

An excerpt from the book "One Taste."
Shangri-La, 2000. copyright Ken Wilber.

Great yogis, saints, and sages reached those heights precisely because they weren't some withdrawn, tiny little nobodies. They were actually big, powerful egos, deeply integrated into the dynamic Ground and Purpose of the Cosmos itself. It’s actually because the ego, the soul, and the Self can exist simultaneously that we can better grasp what "selflessness" truly means—a concept that seems to cause an unusual amount of confusion. But selflessness doesn't mean the absence of a functional ego or Self (that would just be a psychotic, not a sage); rather, it means that a person is no longer exclusively identified with that ego or Self.

One reason we struggle so much with the idea of being "selfless" is that people just want their "selfless sages" to act out some fantasy of what's "holy" or "spiritual." Usually, that just means a state of total numbness from the neck down—no physical needs, no desires, just a constant, faint smile. Everything people actually struggle with—money, food, sex, relationships, longing—is exactly what they expect their saints to be stripped of. They want these "selfless saints" who have shed the ego and sit "above it all." They’re looking for disembodied illusions. I guess people believe religion will simply wipe away all those lower instincts and drives. So, instead of looking for advice on how to live a life full of enthusiasm, they turn to religion to find ways to bypass it, suppress it, or just avoid it altogether.

In other words, the average person wants a spiritual sage to be "less than a person." We seem to want them stripped of all those messy, juicy, complex, and primal drives that move most human beings. It’s like we expect our saints to be nothing more than an absence of everything that drives us. All those things that scare us, confuse us, or overwhelm us—we just want our saints to have absolutely nothing to do with them. And I guess that sense of detachment, that void, that "less than a person" quality... maybe that is exactly what we mean when we talk about being "egoless" or "selfless."

Being "ego-less" doesn't mean losing your sense of self. It isn't about subtracting your personality; I guess it's more like adding to it. It’s a personal plus, not a personal minus—taking all those standard individual traits and layering on some transpersonal depth. You might look at the great yogis, saints, and sages for perspective. Think about figures like Moses, Christ, or even Padmasambhava.
They weren't some weak, helpless wretches. They were fierce drivers of change—from wielding authority within the Temple to conquering entire nations. They shook the world by playing its own game, not through some sheltered, timid piety. Many of them ignited massive social revolutions that lasted for millennia. And they didn't do this by avoiding the physical, emotional, or mental dimensions of being human, nor by shunning the ego that served as their vehicle. Rather, they dove headlong into those realms with a will and an energy that shook the very foundations of the world.
There's no doubt about it. They were also engaged with the soul—that deeper psychic realm—and the spirit, which is that formless Self and the ultimate source of their power. But they manifested that strength through tangible results, mostly because they delved so deeply into those lower dimensions where that power speaks a language everyone can actually understand.
These major movers and shakers weren't small-minded egoists. They were great egoists, in the best sense of the term—simply because the ego (the functional vehicle of the gross realm) can exist alongside the soul (the subtle vehicle) and the Self (the causal vehicle). Since these great teachers were operating within the gross realm, they used their egos to do it, as the ego is the necessary medium for that level of reality. However, they didn't just identify with their egos—which would be narcissism—but rather, they channeled their entire ego into the brilliant Cosmic source.
The great yogis, saints, and sages achieved so much precisely because they weren't shrinking, petty individuals, but expansive egoists, anchored into the dynamic Ground and Purpose of the Cosmos itself, merged into their higher Self, living in pure Atman (pure I-I), or oneness with Brahman; they spoke, and the world trembled, fell to its knees, and beheld its radiant God.

The rest of the translation (which I definitely recommend) can be found at the link below:

http://www.integralworld.net/en/crokwego.html

I guess... is it even possible to achieve spiritual realization without first experiencing the ego?

The whole "catch as catch Ken Wilber" thing is basically a global plague. Honestly, he’ll only start making sense once—and if—he actually wakes up.
It's all just endless babble about purpose, meaning, energy, and entrepreneurship. "Spiritual"? Give me a break!

Jacob Jackson50 said:I respect your fatalistic take on life. Truly. It’s your choice. Just a quick heads-up though—since you jumped into the spirituality thread, you might have missed the fact that there's also a whole separate discussion going on about religion.

Let's keep things focused on both spirituality and religion, shall we?🙂>