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Posts by driftingraven122

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Liberation as the goal. But for what? in Spirituality ·
steeleagle13 said:SO WHY ISN'T THAT POETRY CALLED "CLICK"? hehehe😁

I’m not talking about the rigidity of the "physical body as such," but rather the very nature of the MIND itself (meaning the givenness of everything within the mind), that eternal "contamination" of consciousness...
today's reality, for instance, is just a "rigid physical body"...
usually, it's just the constant sensation of a rigid physical body.

Quincy:
"The shell" isn't eternal—it shatters because of the desire for total finality, along with the consciousness of Being itself.
AFTER realizing the "eternity" of the mind as it is, what possible desire could ever return things to the OLD WAY?
Consciousness doesn't come from BEING (individuality); rather, Being is distinct from consciousness, from the MIND (the universe).

HOW IS IT EVEN POSSIBLE to break and destroy the SHELL and consciousness???
A DEAD being cannot exist!!!! DEATH doesn't exist; death exists only through its own non-existence!!
The MIND exists and ALWAYS EXISTS in the form of a shell!!!!
The UNIVERSE (MIND) exists THROUGH the shell!!!!
THE SHELL is the nature of the mind!!!!!
THE SHELL IS THE MIND (universe) 😁 😲!!!!
The shell is the MIND and the MIND is the shell!!!

It’s possible—since they 'vibrate.' You just align yourself with those vibrations, and the whole thing basically shuts itself down before 'merging' back together. 😬
Liberation as the goal. But for what? in Spirituality ·
mistybison said:It doesn't matter. As Jason Johnson4 points out, the book is intended for the living just as much as it is for the deceased, serving as a sort of manual for achieving "liberation." 🙂 The book itself isn't nearly as vital as the actual state of "liberation." It simply served as the inspiration for me to finally open this discussion I've been contemplating for some time.

That sounds like someone who is truly losing their grip on reality. kaže:
It is absurd to try and process this through pure intellect, because the issue isn't actually about intelligence. There is no entity involved—or rather, any entity perceived is merely an intellectual construct, which means it cannot truly be called an "experience of an entity." It isn't just a matter of memory, either; essentially, it is simply a mirror being turned within the mind. Forever. Once you find the right path, the search for individual "liberation" simply ceases to exist, leaving behind a permanent consequence. From there, you see how those "infinite contents" arise; they aren't actually in contradiction with that state. They aren't a problem.Maybe Master John knows more about this. I am still quite inexperienced. 😬

It is likely that we are all quite inexperienced on this topic. 😁

In my experience, it is quite simple to view "reality"—the distinction between "self" and "non-self"—as a single, unified whole that simply "unfolds." From this perspective, one can experience a true mental tranquility, characterized by a release from the constant cycle of questions and answers and a genuine lightness of being. 🙂 However, I don't view that as the kind of "liberation" you’re describing, nor is it what the Tibetan Book of the Dead refers to. Honestly, I can't quite wrap my head around what this version of "liberation" actually entails—who exactly is being liberated, or what specific shifts are occurring within the mind. I suspect that discussing or overanalyzing this topic might not lead us anywhere productive, but we can certainly give it a try. 🙂

Do you have any approximate experiences regarding this matter?

Quote: Grace Bennett4

It is comforting, as it allows you to grant yourself the conviction of eternal life. 🙂A person is at their happiest when they believe in something eternal, regardless of the form it takes. 😉

Thank you for these insightful posts. 🙂 I am glad this topic prompted you to return to 'Spirituality.'🙂

Well, you just go ahead and do it, if you have to.

If it matters to anyone, those questions don't make any sense to me—nor could I ever give a meaningful answer to them. 😬
Liberation as the goal. But for what? in Spirituality ·
mistybison said:The Tibetan Book of the Dead describes this exact process as "liberation."

Suppose such an "liberation" is experienced by an "entity"—regardless of whether that entity exists in a material, astral, or any other form. Wouldn't this liberation simply be yet another experience in a long series of experiences for that entity? If both diversity and the perceiver itself are lost, only to return to a previous state, then "liberation" immediately becomes nothing more than a memory. Furthermore, if the entity undergoes a sort of fragmentation during this state of "liberation"—which is a clumsy way to put it, but I hope it makes sense—then since there is no longer a self, there is no subject capable of actually experiencing that liberation. Ultimately, "liberation" is either a mere recollection of the true nature of things or total annihilation. The very idea of "being liberated," or "residing in a state of liberation," is quite absurd.

I have no idea how the Tibetan Book of the Dead came to be, though I imagine it was developed through various experiments conducted by ancient Lam Anagarika Govindas.

What exactly happens when someone survives death—do they transition to the next level, or do they gradually fade back into the Maya?

That is the fundamental question. 🙂 If our current existence is merely an illusion, then a true reality must exist beyond it. This is where most people diverge in their convictions: some believe it is God, others posit it is "nothingness," while some argue that what we experience right now is the only absolute truth. This fundamental premise serves as the bedrock upon which all other beliefs, spiritual teachings, and religions are eventually built.

Even if there were a direct hotline between the living and the dead, I struggle to see what could actually survive death while still being identifiable as an individual, a distinct identity, or any kind of autonomous entity.

If we look at the Tibetan Book of the Dead and similar teachings, there is the concept of an "astral body" that exists for a time after death as a blueprint of the physical self. This mental body holds one's memories, karma, and personality traits. It eventually begins to dissolve—similar to how some American traditions observe a forty-day period following passing—until the essence of the being moves toward its next incarnation, shaped by previous karma. States like heaven, hell, or judgment experienced during this transition are simply reflections of one's own psychological state. According to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, those who dedicated themselves to spirituality during their lifetime are spared the more harrowing experiences in the Bardo realm; even without achieving full liberation, their transition between lives remains smooth, peaceful, and joyful.

ps: even though I "challenged" some of your points, I only did so to highlight certain questionable details within that concept. Looking at our discussion, it seems you are already aware of most of those issues. Please don't view this as an attempt to argue, offend, or be verbally aggressive. 🙂

Not at all! We are simply discussing ideas. 🙂

That is merely one possible belief; it is quite logical and comforting, which makes it appealing to the mind, but there is no way to know for sure, let alone prove to someone else that it is the absolute truth. 😉

It seems absurd if you're looking at it through the intellect, but that’s probably not even the point. There is no entity—or rather, there is, but it's merely an intellectual construct—so it isn't really an 'entity's experience.' It isn't just a memory; it's more like a 'mirror' in the mind has been turned permanently the right way around, ending the search for individual 'liberation'—which, I suppose, leaves a lasting consequence. Furthermore, once that happens, you understand how those 'infinite contents' arise, and they aren't actually in conflict with the truth—meaning they aren't a problem. Maybe placidharbor7 knows more about this. I'm still pretty green. 😬

Now, we can call it 'liberation' or whatever we feel like; it doesn't really matter. If this non-differentiation happened once, it will happen again. Or, at least, I'd like to think so. 😬
Liberation as the goal. But for what? in Spirituality ·
Enlightened Teddy Bear 😁

There aren't any voids regarding existence, non-existence, or nothingness—I guess. It’s just that, momentarily, the diversity gets lost along with the entity observing the "infinite contents." And that's really the only ultimate way to grasp those "infinite contents"—it isn't an either-or situation, maybe.
Liberation as the goal. But for what? in Spirituality ·
mistybison said:I recently finished reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Most people here are likely already familiar with this text, but for those who aren't, it outlines the journey of the soul after death as interpreted by ancient spiritual leaders. Its purpose is twofold: to prepare an individual for the afterlife while they are still living, and to provide guidance for loved ones to assist the deceased by reading specific passages aloud. The book explores existence beyond our physical realm—what many would call the astral plane—which serves as a bridge toward total liberation or reincarnation into the material world. It offers practical advice for navigating encounters with various benevolent or wrathful deities during judgment, ultimately guiding the soul toward choosing its next life if complete liberation isn't achieved.

Reading this book, I have concluded that achieving liberation after death is an incredibly difficult feat, likely reserved only for yogis who have already mastered it during their lifetime. Most people simply drift along, carried by the weight of their good and bad karma, failing to maintain a mind centered in emptiness. For the majority, rebirth serves as the inevitable next step—a second chance to pursue spiritual progress. The Tibetan Book of the Dead suggests that liberation can be achieved (though rarely) in the immediate moments following death if the individual is capable, regardless of their karma. This depends entirely on their ability to recognize that everything encountered while navigating Purgatory is merely a projection of their own mind. Every vision is just a fragment of the deceased's psyche: the peaceful deities represent their divine nature, the wrathful ones reflect their human side, and even "judgment" is nothing more than a dialogue between different aspects of the self. Even suffering is simply a product of a restless conscience. Nothing in the astral realm exists outside the individual's being; the entire experience is shaped by one's karma and personal perception. If the soul cannot realize this, they may attempt to find liberation through prayer and focus on a protective deity. If that fails and they are overwhelmed by the illusions of the external world, their karma will inevitably lead them toward a new birth, whether in human form here on Earth or in some other realm altogether.

What I find most fascinating here is the actual concept of liberation. If everything in the astral realm is just as unreal as the deceased themselves—if it's all merely a mental projection colored by the memories and personality traits of a past life (which arguably applies to our physical reality too, but let's not get sidetracked)—then if the mind is fundamentally formless, void, and uncreated, those memories and inclinations are nothing more than illusions. In that case, who exactly is being liberated, and what is actually gained through such a process? 🤷 That which has always been unborn and uncreated is eternally free. It remains untouched by the shifting shadows and colors of existence—perceptions that are merely illusions destined to dissolve once they recognize their own lack of substance. When these illusions scatter, any perceived cognitive Power dissolves along with them. Everything fades. This isn't an escape into some heavenly realm of bliss (as being reborn into such worlds is just another layer of illusion), which leads me to wonder: is "liberation" even the right word for this process? Perhaps "annihilation" or "vanishing" would be more accurate. If the unborn is inherently free and void, then the illusory self, upon realizing its true nature, simply dissolves in a flash of insight. In reality, nothing truly changes; what was always free remains so, and what was never free never truly existed. The ultimate question remains: to what end?

Doesn't this entire concept seem completely nonsensical? All that spiritual labor, practice, and devotion spanning aeons just to realize we are a "holographic program," living in a "holodeck," and made of uncreated light dust—only to dissolve back into that dust and lose any sense of "self"? It feels a bit absurd, doesn't it?

On an intellectual level, grasping this idea isn't difficult. Modern science provides plenty of support, and beyond that, we have our own personal experiences, intuition acting as a channel to universal knowledge, and the mind's capacity for abstract thought. Actually "achieving" such a state is undoubtedly much harder and requires immense discipline. Perhaps adopting this view of reality could simplify and beautify our lives. But why would anyone set the "annihilation of consciousness" as their ultimate goal? Why would we want to dissolve into the void? Usually, the answer given is to escape the suffering of birth and death. But who is actually escaping it? Once you realize the illusion, the one being born and dying is merely a vanishing act, while that which was never born or died lacks a "self" to begin with. To me, it all looks like a pointless cycle: non-existence, existence, then non-existence again. 🤷

I hope my point comes through clearly in this topic. 😁

And maybe—just maybe—you can't pull one tooth until the others are gone. You just end up becoming a dentist through sheer repetition instead of actually getting the tooth out.
Zen is everywhere in Spirituality ·
wiredbear2 said:thanks Crazy, thanks bluemason3 🙂

Today, my mind is feeling the direct impact of this cyclone, leaving me far, far away from any sense of samadhi... 😢 😵

Under this idea where the mind becomes the object, does it mean that consciousness essentially detaches from the mind, allowing the mind to then serve as the object of observation?

Yes. Essentially, you "grasp" an object with the mind. Constantly.

I intentionally try to forget I’ve ever even heard the terms mind, body, or consciousness—I just follow the feeling. When I hit that first level, there's this subtle blend of stillness, ease, and a sort of... "sacred" sensation. It’s like walking around and just gliding—never actually touching anything. 😬
Zen is everywhere in Spirituality ·
bluemason3 said:driftingraven122 will probably correct me easily since Buddhism isn't my specialty, but in Theravada, there are basically two "techniques" (not counting meta-labels like "meditation" and such). First, there's breath concentration—which isn't actually vipassana, though people mix them up—used to calm and focus the mind. This usually precedes vipassana, which is more of a self-analysis of physical and mental processes. I assume Samadhi is the ideal state reached by that first step, followed by vipassana as a way to deconstruct things through analysis (basically realizing impermanence and the lack of essence in phenomena), or rather, self-observation via vipassana.

Did I get that right? 😬

In Zen, there are three main methods:
1 - shikantaza—just sitting without a fixed object
2 - similar to the method above, focusing on the breath
3 - koan

Yeah, I guess shikantaza and koan are basically just the same thing as Vipassana.
Zen is everywhere in Spirituality ·
wiredbear2 said:So, samadhi targets the conceptual mind, while vipassana works to 'deconstruct everything surrounding them.' Could you elaborate on that? 🙂

And what does meditation actually look like in Zen?

It's Samadhi—extreme concentration, I suppose. You practice focusing until the mind itself becomes the object of meditation, at which point conceptual thought seemingly stops... or rather, becomes the object itself. After that, one simply observes the 'vibrations'—you know, 'that which is non-conceptual,' which is essentially vipassana or observing the three characteristics.

Just grab any traditional text on Theravada or Zen meditation. There are plenty of them online, I guess.

edit: bluemason3 explained it—I missed that earlier. 😬
Zen is everywhere in Spirituality ·
wiredbear2 said:Do you truly believe that by labeling someone as part of a myth, we are implying they never actually existed?
I feel that these figures have been deceased for quite long enough that they can be categorized within myth, yet that certainly doesn't mean they never walked this earth as real people... 😉
If they were indeed inventions, then their creators deserve an award; I find myself bowing to their imagination and, as you put it, to the power of the metaphor... 🙏

I would tell him the exact same thing. The whole point is that an entire narrative is constructed—religions, belief systems, rituals, lifelong devotion, the writing of countless books—all for the singular purpose of reaching that realization: that there is no "use" to be found...

Do you really think it would be better if something like Buddhism had never even existed?

Unless, of course, you are talking about Hindu or Buddhist traditions. Their meditation is much like a Christian praying the Rosary...

That depends. Their meditation serves a different function; it is an affirmation of their faith, a practical manifestation of it...

I couldn't agree more, 😉 but then I find myself wondering... if I have a specific desire or a personal goal in mind, what does meditation even become when I start using it as a means to achieve that particular end?...

No, actually—it serves the exact same purpose, and it isn't some practical display of faith so much as an elegant way to "achieve" something. Essentially, they utilize samadhi to kill off the conceptual part of the mind, then pivot to vipassana to deconstruct everything in their surroundings. Once they hit that undifferentiated state, reality just tosses them back into samadhi, where they watch everything reconstruct itself—and by repeating this, they lose duality. Zen meditation follows the same logic, just... phrased slightly differently.
Zen is everywhere in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:Look, let's be real for a second—Buddha is essentially a mythological figure. He belongs in the same category as Jesus, Horus, and that whole crew of legendary "saviors" from ancient mythologies. Honestly, any enthusiast of Buddhism who can't tell the difference between pure philosophy and mythology is in a bit of trouble—they’ve basically gotten themselves stuck inside the metaphor.

I can't recommend Joseph Campbell’s lecture series—specifically "Mythos" or "The Power of Myth"—enough. Honestly, even if you just track down a shorter version or some highlights, it is absolutely worth your time. When we talk about the Hero's Journey, it’s easy to get lost in the academic weeds, but at its core, it’s just that universal pattern we see everywhere—it's that pull toward transformation that defines the human experience. Think about it like this: we all start in our own version of "the ordinary world," maybe sitting in a coffee shop in Seattle or commuting through Chicago, feeling like things are just... fine. Then, out of nowhere, life throws a curveball—a sudden change in career, a loss, or even just a profound realization—and suddenly, you're being pulled away from everything familiar. That's the call to adventure. It isn't always some epic quest involving dragons or swords, though. Most of the time, the "monsters" we face are much more internal—our own doubts, our fears of failure, or that nagging feeling that we aren't enough. We meet mentors along the way—people who offer us a bit of wisdom or a nudge in the right direction—and then we have to step into the unknown. It’s that uncomfortable, messy middle part where you're testing your limits and learning who you actually are when the safety net is gone. That's the real meat of the story. It’s about the struggle, the descent into the "belly of the whale," and eventually, the hard-won return to ourselves, hopefully a little wiser and a lot more resilient than when we started. It’s a cycle, really—not just a one-time thing, but a blueprint for how we grow through every major transition in our lives.

The Hero's Journey—think back to that moment when the Emperor sat across from the bearded "barbarian" Bodhidharma:
So, people always ask me, "What’s the actual point of Buddhism?" It’s a fair question—honestly, it's one I find myself chewing on quite a bit. When you strip away all the incense and the complex rituals, what are we actually getting out of this? To me, it isn't about joining some exclusive club or memorizing a bunch of obscure doctrines just to feel superior. It’s much more practical than that. Think of it like mental hygiene—sort of like how we prioritize physical fitness or keeping our homes tidy, but instead, we're focusing on the cluttered, chaotic landscape of our own minds. Life in America can be incredibly loud and relentless—there's always that constant pressure to produce, to consume, or to keep up with whatever the latest trend is on social media. We're constantly being pulled in a thousand different directions by our own desires and anxieties. In that context, Buddhism acts like a sort of anchor. It gives you the tools to step back from the noise and actually observe your own reactions without being completely swept away by them. It’s about developing this internal resilience—this ability to sit in the middle of a storm and realize that while the wind is howling, you don't necessarily have to be tossed around by it. It's less about escaping reality and more about learning how to actually inhabit it fully, without the constant layer of suffering that comes from clinging to things that are naturally temporary. It's about finding a sense of steady ground when everything else feels like shifting sand.
It’s almost like Bodhidharma just laid it all out there—straight up, no sugarcoating, like a shot from a cannon:
Honestly, there's just no real point to it.

Let's dive a little deeper into this topic...

Even after that final stage, the process remains essentially the same—it’s just that enlightenment isn't viewed as this slow, step-by-step climb anymore, but rather as a sudden, lightning-bolt kind of breakthrough.

Look, here’s the thing about enlightenment—it isn't some trophy you win or a goal you check off a list. Honestly, anyone out there grinding away, trying to "achieve" enlightenment through sheer willpower, is just spinning their wheels. It’s a wild goose chase. I like to think of meditation as the relationship between a river and its riverbed. You don't see rivers just deciding to flow for an hour or two a day before taking a break; the current is always moving, always present. In that same vein, meditation shouldn't be this scheduled task you squeeze into your morning routine—it needs to be a constant, steady presence in your life.

Sitting around for a few hours a day in some "enlightened" pose while chasing after spiritual awakening is basically just the exotic version of people grabbing overpriced lattes and strolling through Central Park.

Look, I’m not saying meditation itself isn't a valid concept—far from it. But I really think we need to stop acting like sitting in a lotus position in some quiet monastery with monks is what it's all about. That's just not the point. To me, true meditation is more of a way of living your life—a constant state of being—rather than just some scheduled activity you do once a day, a spiritual workout, or a shortcut to reaching enlightenment. When people treat "meditation" as this specific task to check off a list, it feels less like actual practice and more like Catholic prayer. It’s basically just taking the outward forms of Buddhism and mixing them with things like reincarnation and other popular beliefs that don't actually have much to do with Zen—or, honestly, with common sense.

Zen monasteries in Japan operate much like any other Buddhist monastery—they follow a specific set of monastic rules, known as vinaya, while staying deeply committed to their daily meditation practice.

Just because a huge crowd of people keeps doing the same thing over and over doesn't mean that what they're repeating is actually good, right? Or even useful, for that matter. It certainly doesn't make it "correct." I’ll give you a few examples to chew on—then you can be the judge of that...

It’s funny how things work—every four years, we all line up to cast our votes like it’s some grand, life-changing ritual, even though if you ask anyone around the water cooler, they’ll swear up and down that it doesn't actually change a damn thing. It’s this strange, repetitive cycle where everyone acts like their ballot is a magic wand, yet the consensus is usually just a shrug and a sigh about how the system stays exactly the same regardless.

You know that feeling when someone is driving like a total maniac—just speeding through traffic without a single thought for anyone else? It’s wild how passengers react. Even though everyone knows deep down that flailing your arms or bracing your legs against the dashboard isn't actually going to stop the car, there’s this instinctive, physical urge to fight back. You find yourself tensing up and pushing against the seat or the floorboards, almost like you're trying to physically wrestle the vehicle into slowing down. It’s such a human thing to do, really—that desperate, irrational attempt to exert control over a situation where you actually have none at all.

It’s funny how we do it—all parents out there basically run this massive, collective charade where we pretend Santa Claus is actually out there doing his thing just to see those kids' faces light up. We lean into the magic, creating this whole elaborate mythos around the holiday season. But honestly? If you actually sit down and talk to the kids—really listen to them—you realize they aren't nearly as fooled as we think. Most of them don't buy the whole Santa thing at all.

It’s funny how things work out, isn't it? Most high schoolers today are basically sprinting toward getting a college degree—they're convinced that having those credentials is the golden ticket to a steady paycheck and a decent career. But if you actually take a look at the job market right now, the reality is pretty eye-opening. You see way more unemployed people walking around with four-year degrees than you do people with vocational training or trade certificates. It’s almost like everyone followed the same script, only to find out the ending wasn't what they expected.

So... it’s pretty clear that we can't really use "widespread repetition" as a valid argument for truth or credibility. I mean, think about it—one of our most fundamental ways of learning is through Mimicry. Look at how kids pick up everything from their parents; they just mirror their actions without actually grasping the underlying "logic" behind what they're copying. It’s classic learned behavior. The thing is, most people go through their entire lives never once performing a "revision" of those ingrained habits—because, as Bertrand Russell once pointed out:
It’s a pretty heavy thought, isn't it? But honestly, if you look around, most people would actually rather face death than deal with the sheer discomfort of thinking for themselves—and in a way, they actually do. They choose a kind of mental death every single day just to avoid the struggle. It’s much easier to stay on autopilot, following the crowd or just drifting through life without ever questioning why things are the way they are. Real, deep thinking requires a level of grit that most people simply aren't willing to tap into.

Zen really did change quite a few things back when it was first taking root in Japan.

Everything that shows up somewhere—no matter how small or insignificant—ends up shifting things just by being there. It’s like when you walk into a quiet room and your mere presence changes the entire energy of the space; even if you don't say a word, the atmosphere is different because you exist within it. Everything has that kind of ripple effect. 🙂

It’s actually pretty fascinating when you dig into the etymology—the whole term "Zen" is essentially a linguistic evolution. It traces its roots back to the Sanskrit word *dhyana*, which refers to deep meditation, and that concept eventually traveled through China before evolving into the Japanese term *Chan*. It’s all part of one long, continuous thread of practice.

Think of Dhyana as one specific "style" of yoga—we usually describe it as the meditative approach. But if you look at the word Dhyana all by itself, it doesn’t really carry much weight—it's kind of like saying the word "blueberry" without adding "muffin." On its own, it lacks that practical, specific punch. In that sense, Zen is essentially just a translation of Yoga, specifically referring to the concept of unification. It’s about that moment where the flow of the river finally meets and merges perfectly with the riverbed.

So, when you really dig into it, Zen Buddhism basically translates to "meditative Buddhism." That’s the core distinction—it sets itself apart from other traditions because it places such a massive emphasis on the actual practice of meditation rather than just getting lost in endless philosophical debates. It’s less about reading theory and more about the direct experience, if that makes sense.

Have you ever heard of...
If you want to really wrap your head around the concept of Zen, I’d honestly suggest diving into some books by D. T. Suzuki or maybe Alan Watts—it’ll make everything click much faster.

Honestly, trying to talk about Zen without actually understanding Japanese culture and its rhythm of life just seems totally nonsensical to me. When Buddhism migrated from India through China and eventually made its way to Japan, it underwent these very specific adaptations—changes that happened because the practice had to mesh with the local customs and the traditional way people lived their lives there. For instance, you have this hyper-driven Japanese society where everyone is constantly wrestling with rigid protocols, strict formalities, and this relentless, high-octane activity. In that context, "sitting Zen" acted as a perfect counterbalance—a way to break through that collective social "auto-hypnosis" they were all caught in. It was a release valve. Trying to apply that exact same technique here in the States—where the struggle is usually the polar opposite, dealing with widespread apathy, a lack of drive, or just plain old laziness—is about as useful as trying to water rice paddies in the middle of a monsoon or attempting to pin legs on a snake. It just doesn't fit the environment.

It’s honestly kind of funny—or maybe just a little sad—watching people try so hard to look "cool" while sitting there in these stiff, awkward poses, pretending they're deep in meditation. It’s all performative. Then you’ve got the whole Mimicry thing going on, where people just mindlessly copy how someone else acts without ever stopping to actually grasp the *why* behind the behavior. They want the aesthetic, but none of the substance. I guess the grass really is always greener on the other side, isn't it? People would much rather follow a script than do the actual work of thinking for themselves.

Look, I know it might sound a bit cynical—maybe even a little silly to some people—but if we’re being honest, if this whole thing turns out to be fake or just plain nonsensical, we probably shouldn't be calling it Zen Buddhism at all. It would be more accurate to just label it as complete nonsense, or something along those lines. 😁

It isn't really about the specific labels we slap on things—that’s just semantics. The real issue is that while everyone seems to have a different name for it, only a handful of people actually understand what’s truly going on underneath the surface.

Look, I’ve got some friendly advice for you—just something to keep in the back of your mind. The moment someone starts talking about meditation like it’s some sort of technical skill they "practice" for X number of hours a day—as if they're trying to "achieve" a specific milestone or "work on themselves" like they're fixing up an old car—just run. Seriously, just get out of there. When people start insisting that what they’re "doing" can't be explained through any kind of philosophy, and they lean hard into this idea that it's all just about "faith" or things being "inexplicable," that's your cue to head for the exit. It feels less like genuine practice and more like they're just using those vague terms to dodge actual substance. 😉

Sitting in a "cool" pose, chasing enlightenment, praying, and your specific take on meditation—they're all functional techniques if you push them to the extreme.

For instance, if you actually understood Buddhist meditation through experience, you’d know what 'reincarnation' actually means and you wouldn't be posting this.

Anyone who thinks their specific theory or technique is the only truth is either totally clueless or—maybe—has some other agenda. 😛
Spiritual practices in Spirituality ·
It works pretty effectively for me when I pick something pleasant—though nothing too intense, maybe just that warm nostalgia you get from a childhood memory—and then I just carry that sensation through my breath (focusing on one single point, of course). After a while, I guess my concentration just starts to develop on its own.

Once it feels like I’ve stopped breathing and my entire intention has merged with the breath, I know I’ve finally settled back into a solid state of concentration.
Zen is everywhere in Spirituality ·
Look, listen to unknown 😬

I mean, you can’t even begin to wrap your head around unknown literature without first finishing the basic unknown practices—or whatever the equivalent training is within unknown. It’s just impossible, I guess.
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Thanks for the effort—interesting post, I guess.

Quincy:
So—until I actually sat down and thought about it—I assumed "I" was the one doing the thinking, but now I realize that's just an illusion.
Was that some kind of spiritual technique you used? 😁

Quincy:
...
2) What kind of technique can gradually wake you up? How long does it take to wake after sleep? One moment you're asleep, and the next you're awake... probably still groggy, but awake nonetheless. There aren't any techniques for waking up. You just have to want to wake up RIGHT NOW. No prep work, no specific methods, and no waiting around for things to shift. Transformation is instantaneous—it doesn't require time.
Did you actually manage to wake up using that method?
Well, I read your post, and it didn't quite work for me.
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:I’m honestly still chewing on what was said here—it’s one of those ideas that really sticks to your ribs if you let it. It’s like when you're trying to explain a complex concept, like how a certain software architecture works, and you realize the simplest explanation isn't always the most accurate one because life just isn't that linear. You know? Anyway, I wanted to take a second to dig into this.

So, what’s the actual difference there? Is there any real evidence pointing in that direction, or is it just a gut feeling of yours that things shouldn't work that way? I've spent quite a bit of time chewing on this myself—really digging into the logic—and honestly, I haven't been able to find any solid arguments that support the idea that these aren't just the exact same phenomenon occurring at different amplitudes. It feels like we're looking at the same wave, just scaled differently.

I honestly don't follow you there... what does neuromotor skills have to do with the ego? That’s just learned behavior—purely physical conditioning—and I really don't see any room for the ego to play a part in that process.

I definitely agree that the ego is essentially just a byproduct of identification... but I think there's a huge distinction to be made regarding identity itself. You can possess an identity without actually identifying with it. It’s kind of like how you might be incredibly skilled at drawing—you have the talent, the technique, and the drive—but that doesn't mean you have to label yourself as "an artist" to enjoy the process. So, please, let's try to distinguish between participating in society through a "persona" and actually identifying with that persona while remaining oblivious to the true nature of your own consciousness. Those two things aren't the same—in fact, they aren't even close.

I think you’re missing the core of what we’re actually "doing" here. See, the problem with any spiritual technique is that it’s really just gymnastics for the ego—nothing more. Every single exercise, every little method, or any specific path you follow requires time to work, and that’s where the trap lies. Time is essentially just the interference between a thought and the thinker. Think about it this way: thought is primary, while experience is always secondary. Thought is absolute, whereas experience is purely relative. As long as you’re clinging to these "techniques" within the realm of time, that "thinker" isn't going anywhere. You can't make them vanish. And honestly, you can't truly become what you actually are until they do—which is nothing more than a shifting, transient thought trying to manufacture a permanent "thinker" just to lock itself into a sense of stability.

I'm looking at this Quote—and I mean really digging into it—and it’s got me thinking about how we process information in this digital age. It reminds me a bit of that whole McLuhan idea about the medium being the message, right? We often get so caught up in the individual bits of data that we miss the broader architecture of how that info is actually hitting us. It's like when you're driving down a highway in the Midwest; you can focus on a single pothole, or you can look at the horizon to see where the road is actually taking you. If you only stare at the cracks in the pavement, you're going to miss the entire landscape.

Do you actually know what identity even means? At its core, identity means "to be the same," so the act of identifying is really this metamorphosis where you—the subject doing the identifying—become identical to the "object" you're focusing on. If that "object" happens to be the Absolute (Unity Software), then at the moment of total identification, you "become identical to the Absolute." In that scenario, there’s nothing left to distinguish you, nothing to separate you from the source. If you *are* the Absolute, you aren't some separate identity going through a process anymore.

I laid all of this out in my previous post, too, but since it clearly didn't click, I'll expand the explanation just a touch. If any part of this feels fuzzy, please just ask—and seriously, try to get a handle on what these terms actually mean, otherwise we're just going to end up babbling in circles and getting absolutely nowhere.

Look, your identity—your "persona"—exists as long as you're breathing. But the ego? The ego doesn't actually exist unless you believe in it—that's when it becomes "real." It's essentially the same mechanism you see in schizophrenia, just on a much smaller scale. By believing in the ego, you've basically split yourself into two: you've labeled one part the "ego" and the other the "controller" (or whatever you want to call it), and now there are two of you. If that splitting continues, you end up with three, and then we're moving into multiple personality disorder territory. Usually, every one of those fragments is born from some kind of trauma or repressed subconscious baggage.

Trying to "fix" the ego using some fancy technique is probably the biggest ego trip you could ever take. True transformation has to be instantaneous... that's why they call it Satori (sudden, all at once). Techniques exist because they're the easiest way to turn a fool into a wise man. As William Blake said: "The fool who persists in his folly will become wise," and all these techniques are just there to point you straight toward your own foolishness. With these methods, you aren't really "going" anywhere; you eventually hit a "wall" and realize that Nirvana is exactly where you were standing when you first thought you had an "ego problem" to solve.

Then again, maybe I'm just pulling your leg and I made the whole thing up on the spot...

...or maybe there's a certain amount of spiritual pride involved here—something rotten, ambitious, and fundamentally wrong about our drive to become enlightened. Maybe it's an utter ego trip to think that through sheer willpower and effort, we can transform ourselves into something we haven't been before... like a Buddha or a saint.

How can you become something you already are? How do you "work on yourself"... how do you use your fingertip to touch the very tip of that same finger? What kind of "technique" is that?

To me, "ego" is basically anything I can—and do—identify with. Everything from trivial stuff like my name to thoughts or even "consciousness." Maybe we should just agree on an exact definition for ego first, so we actually start using the same language—otherwise, we're just talking past each other.

Edward Flores4 said:I’m honestly still chewing on what was said here—it’s one of those ideas that really sticks to your ribs if you let it. It’s like when you're trying to explain a complex concept, like how a certain software architecture works, and you realize the simplest explanation isn't always the most accurate one because life just isn't that linear. You know? Anyway, I wanted to take a second to dig into this.

So, what’s the actual difference there? Is there any real evidence pointing in that direction, or is it just a gut feeling of yours that things shouldn't work that way? I've spent quite a bit of time chewing on this myself—really digging into the logic—and honestly, I haven't been able to find any solid arguments that support the idea that these aren't just the exact same phenomenon occurring at different amplitudes. It feels like we're looking at the same wave, just scaled differently.

I honestly don't follow you there... what does neuromotor skills have to do with the ego? That’s just learned behavior—purely physical conditioning—and I really don't see any room for the ego to play a part in that process.

I definitely agree that the ego is essentially just a byproduct of identification... but I think there's a huge distinction to be made regarding identity itself. You can possess an identity without actually identifying with it. It’s kind of like how you might be incredibly skilled at drawing—you have the talent, the technique, and the drive—but that doesn't mean you have to label yourself as "an artist" to enjoy the process. So, please, let's try to distinguish between participating in society through a "persona" and actually identifying with that persona while remaining oblivious to the true nature of your own consciousness. Those two things aren't the same—in fact, they aren't even close.

I think you’re missing the core of what we’re actually "doing" here. See, the problem with any spiritual technique is that it’s really just gymnastics for the ego—nothing more. Every single exercise, every little method, or any specific path you follow requires time to work, and that’s where the trap lies. Time is essentially just the interference between a thought and the thinker. Think about it this way: thought is primary, while experience is always secondary. Thought is absolute, whereas experience is purely relative. As long as you’re clinging to these "techniques" within the realm of time, that "thinker" isn't going anywhere. You can't make them vanish. And honestly, you can't truly become what you actually are until they do—which is nothing more than a shifting, transient thought trying to manufacture a permanent "thinker" just to lock itself into a sense of stability.

I'm looking at this Quote—and I mean really digging into it—and it’s got me thinking about how we process information in this digital age. It reminds me a bit of that whole McLuhan idea about the medium being the message, right? We often get so caught up in the individual bits of data that we miss the broader architecture of how that info is actually hitting us. It's like when you're driving down a highway in the Midwest; you can focus on a single pothole, or you can look at the horizon to see where the road is actually taking you. If you only stare at the cracks in the pavement, you're going to miss the entire landscape.

Do you actually know what identity even means? At its core, identity means "to be the same," so the act of identifying is really this metamorphosis where you—the subject doing the identifying—become identical to the "object" you're focusing on. If that "object" happens to be the Absolute (Unity Software), then at the moment of total identification, you "become identical to the Absolute." In that scenario, there’s nothing left to distinguish you, nothing to separate you from the source. If you *are* the Absolute, you aren't some separate identity going through a process anymore.

I laid all of this out in my previous post, too, but since it clearly didn't click, I'll expand the explanation just a touch. If any part of this feels fuzzy, please just ask—and seriously, try to get a handle on what these terms actually mean, otherwise we're just going to end up babbling in circles and getting absolutely nowhere.

Look, your identity—your "persona"—exists as long as you're breathing. But the ego? The ego doesn't actually exist unless you believe in it—that's when it becomes "real." It's essentially the same mechanism you see in schizophrenia, just on a much smaller scale. By believing in the ego, you've basically split yourself into two: you've labeled one part the "ego" and the other the "controller" (or whatever you want to call it), and now there are two of you. If that splitting continues, you end up with three, and then we're moving into multiple personality disorder territory. Usually, every one of those fragments is born from some kind of trauma or repressed subconscious baggage.

Trying to "fix" the ego using some fancy technique is probably the biggest ego trip you could ever take. True transformation has to be instantaneous... that's why they call it Satori (sudden, all at once). Techniques exist because they're the easiest way to turn a fool into a wise man. As William Blake said: "The fool who persists in his folly will become wise," and all these techniques are just there to point you straight toward your own foolishness. With these methods, you aren't really "going" anywhere; you eventually hit a "wall" and realize that Nirvana is exactly where you were standing when you first thought you had an "ego problem" to solve.

Then again, maybe I'm just pulling your leg and I made the whole thing up on the spot...

...or maybe there's a certain amount of spiritual pride involved here—something rotten, ambitious, and fundamentally wrong about our drive to become enlightened. Maybe it's an utter ego trip to think that through sheer willpower and effort, we can transform ourselves into something we haven't been before... like a Buddha or a saint.

How can you become something you already are? How do you "work on yourself"... how do you use your fingertip to touch the very tip of that same finger? What kind of "technique" is that?

I'm curious—what's the actual basis for that line of reasoning? If Buddha or some other mystic claimed there is something that can be symbolically called "awakening," and suggested it's a smart move to "wake up" and eventually help others do the same—then why would wanting to verify that claim be considered an "utter" ego trip?

Edward Flores4 said:I’m honestly still chewing on what was said here—it’s one of those ideas that really sticks to your ribs if you let it. It’s like when you're trying to explain a complex concept, like how a certain software architecture works, and you realize the simplest explanation isn't always the most accurate one because life just isn't that linear. You know? Anyway, I wanted to take a second to dig into this.

So, what’s the actual difference there? Is there any real evidence pointing in that direction, or is it just a gut feeling of yours that things shouldn't work that way? I've spent quite a bit of time chewing on this myself—really digging into the logic—and honestly, I haven't been able to find any solid arguments that support the idea that these aren't just the exact same phenomenon occurring at different amplitudes. It feels like we're looking at the same wave, just scaled differently.

I honestly don't follow you there... what does neuromotor skills have to do with the ego? That’s just learned behavior—purely physical conditioning—and I really don't see any room for the ego to play a part in that process.

I definitely agree that the ego is essentially just a byproduct of identification... but I think there's a huge distinction to be made regarding identity itself. You can possess an identity without actually identifying with it. It’s kind of like how you might be incredibly skilled at drawing—you have the talent, the technique, and the drive—but that doesn't mean you have to label yourself as "an artist" to enjoy the process. So, please, let's try to distinguish between participating in society through a "persona" and actually identifying with that persona while remaining oblivious to the true nature of your own consciousness. Those two things aren't the same—in fact, they aren't even close.

I think you’re missing the core of what we’re actually "doing" here. See, the problem with any spiritual technique is that it’s really just gymnastics for the ego—nothing more. Every single exercise, every little method, or any specific path you follow requires time to work, and that’s where the trap lies. Time is essentially just the interference between a thought and the thinker. Think about it this way: thought is primary, while experience is always secondary. Thought is absolute, whereas experience is purely relative. As long as you’re clinging to these "techniques" within the realm of time, that "thinker" isn't going anywhere. You can't make them vanish. And honestly, you can't truly become what you actually are until they do—which is nothing more than a shifting, transient thought trying to manufacture a permanent "thinker" just to lock itself into a sense of stability.

I'm looking at this Quote—and I mean really digging into it—and it’s got me thinking about how we process information in this digital age. It reminds me a bit of that whole McLuhan idea about the medium being the message, right? We often get so caught up in the individual bits of data that we miss the broader architecture of how that info is actually hitting us. It's like when you're driving down a highway in the Midwest; you can focus on a single pothole, or you can look at the horizon to see where the road is actually taking you. If you only stare at the cracks in the pavement, you're going to miss the entire landscape.

Do you actually know what identity even means? At its core, identity means "to be the same," so the act of identifying is really this metamorphosis where you—the subject doing the identifying—become identical to the "object" you're focusing on. If that "object" happens to be the Absolute (Unity Software), then at the moment of total identification, you "become identical to the Absolute." In that scenario, there’s nothing left to distinguish you, nothing to separate you from the source. If you *are* the Absolute, you aren't some separate identity going through a process anymore.

I laid all of this out in my previous post, too, but since it clearly didn't click, I'll expand the explanation just a touch. If any part of this feels fuzzy, please just ask—and seriously, try to get a handle on what these terms actually mean, otherwise we're just going to end up babbling in circles and getting absolutely nowhere.

Look, your identity—your "persona"—exists as long as you're breathing. But the ego? The ego doesn't actually exist unless you believe in it—that's when it becomes "real." It's essentially the same mechanism you see in schizophrenia, just on a much smaller scale. By believing in the ego, you've basically split yourself into two: you've labeled one part the "ego" and the other the "controller" (or whatever you want to call it), and now there are two of you. If that splitting continues, you end up with three, and then we're moving into multiple personality disorder territory. Usually, every one of those fragments is born from some kind of trauma or repressed subconscious baggage.

Trying to "fix" the ego using some fancy technique is probably the biggest ego trip you could ever take. True transformation has to be instantaneous... that's why they call it Satori (sudden, all at once). Techniques exist because they're the easiest way to turn a fool into a wise man. As William Blake said: "The fool who persists in his folly will become wise," and all these techniques are just there to point you straight toward your own foolishness. With these methods, you aren't really "going" anywhere; you eventually hit a "wall" and realize that Nirvana is exactly where you were standing when you first thought you had an "ego problem" to solve.

Then again, maybe I'm just pulling your leg and I made the whole thing up on the spot...

...or maybe there's a certain amount of spiritual pride involved here—something rotten, ambitious, and fundamentally wrong about our drive to become enlightened. Maybe it's an utter ego trip to think that through sheer willpower and effort, we can transform ourselves into something we haven't been before... like a Buddha or a saint.

How can you become something you already are? How do you "work on yourself"... how do you use your fingertip to touch the very tip of that same finger? What kind of "technique" is that?

Why do you think that's a valid analogy? Personally, I don't see any connection whatsoever between "spiritual practice" (at least the ones I'm aware of) and "touching the tip of your finger with its tip."
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:Of course they are... but we don't actually treat people that way, do we? If we did, we'd have to admit that we’re all somewhat schizophrenic to varying degrees. It's really just a matter of being observant enough to notice the "clumsiness" of that phenomenon in our daily lives—that awkward friction that makes us want to limit the movements of people whose schizophrenic "realities" are a bit too intense for the norm.

So, here's where it gets interesting. That line of reasoning forces us into another conclusion. Specifically, we need to decide if these "schizophrenic realities" are actually closer to some kind of theoretically objective truth, or if they are just arbitrary projections of subconscious content onto an "objective" reality. In other words: is schizophrenia an evolutionary leap forward, or is it a defect?

If it's progress, then we urgently need to swap out the staff at the psychiatric wards for the folks over at Congress. We'd just rotate them through the seats and call it a day.

But if it’s a defect, then we’ve used pure logic to circle back to the idea that the ego is nothing more than an irrational, arbitrary, and mostly subconscious projection—something we label as a flaw rather than seeing it as the "normal" or "natural" state of things.

The philosopher in my signature suggests recognizing "his identity with this Unity Software," which basically means realizing your identity as an inseparable part of a much larger whole. But isn't "identity" and "Unity Software" essentially opposites? Once you recognize your identity as part of the whole, the individual identity vanishes—the transformation is complete. The whole process of identification is actually a metamorphosis into a transcendental "object," an attractor, or to put it in McLuhan terms, a "medium" (whatever that may be), which serves as the ultimate goal of the identification process.

When you read ancient philosophers, you really have to approach them through the lens of the cosmology of their era. They didn't write with the literalism that modern philosophers do. Their statements are incredibly compressed—they pack massive amounts of data into very few words. To truly decompress those ideas, you usually have to dive into the original language and its fundamental assumptions, while studying the specific cosmology and mythology of that period... I think they call that "comparative mythology philosophy." Only then do you get the full picture of what those philosophical statements were trying to convey. They weren't writing for the masses back then; they were writing for the highly educated, the well-informed, and the relatively intelligent individuals who shared a specific worldview and a standardized set of assumptions unique to their corner of the world and their time.

But even so, we're really just drawing a parallel between how these two things—the ego illusion and hallucinations—impact what we perceive as reality. It doesn't mean they are functionally identical, of course.

Then again, maybe we're using 'ego' in a different sense—like when I want to lift my left arm or grab a glass of water; I personally see that 'ego' in action and consider it necessary for any movement at all, which suggests it runs deeper—that the ego is precisely that essential process of identification.

Whether I want to lift my left hand, drink some water, identify with Buddhist philosophy, or apply some sort of 'technique,' it all feels fundamentally the same to me (in terms of 'deepening the ego illusion,' obviously). Actually, this whole idea of discarding 'spiritual techniques' sounds a bit like the ego manifesting in its most conventional sense. 😁

Which brings me to this:

The philosopher in my signature mentions recognizing "his identity with this unity," which translates to realizing one's identity as an inseparable part of a larger whole. But identity and Unity Software are actually opposites... aren't they? If you recognize your identity as the whole—identity vanishes—the transformation is complete. Because the process of identification is essentially a metamorphosis into a transcendental "object," an attractor, or to put it in McLuhan terms, a "medium"—whatever that may be—which serves as the ultimate goal of the identification process.

It all sounds a little too much like a fairy tale to me, honestly, because I can't really picture a functioning human being who isn't currently engaged in a process of identification. I mean, I don't see how identity disappears if it's recognized as part of a whole; hasn't the identity just shifted slightly? Doesn't the ego still function?
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:I was just asking you a simple question—honestly, I’m not sure where you got that from—but you jumped the gun and started attacking a conclusion I didn't even make. 🤷

Honestly, what we’re looking at here is just classic projection—you know, that thing where you take your own subconscious baggage and just dump it onto whoever you're talking to. Instead of actually listening to what I'm laying out, you're essentially reacting to your own internal programming. It's like you aren't even processing my words; you're just hitting a series of mental tripwires that have absolutely nothing to do with what I’m actually saying.

So, here’s the big question—are the hallucinations experienced by someone with schizophrenia actually real and tangible, or are they just... not? I’m looking for a simple yes or no to start, though I’m totally open to a bit of an explanation alongside that short answer. And hey, let's try not to pivot to a whole new topic until we've actually wrapped this one up—if you're down to discuss it, that is—but if not, no pressure at all.

Yeah, in my opinion—they're real, or at least they trigger real consequences. Much like the ego, I guess.

The real question is whether you identify with your mind and body. If not, then what? Is it more like the philosopher in your signature, maybe?
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:How am I supposed to get rid of something that isn't even real? Honestly, any "technique" designed to dismantle the ego is just mental gymnastics—it actually ends up reinforcing the whole illusion that the ego exists in the first place. It’s like trying to treat a disease when you aren't actually sick; if you go down that road, you're looking at a lifetime of treatment and guaranteed failure. It's the exact same story with the ego... it's pure schizophrenia. 😁

I wasn't talking about resolving the ego—more like dismantling the illusion of its existence, I guess.
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:Not at all! Identifying with anything just ends up reinforcing that ego illusion—it’s like, you identify with Buddhism, and suddenly you've just built another layer of identity. I mean, whether it's "better" to identify with Buddhist philosophy or a street gang is probably worth a debate, but honestly, that's just a "pick the lesser of two evils" situation, which isn't really worth our time to dwell on.

So, how exactly do you plan on getting rid of that illusion? Isn't there some form of identification inherent in your attempt to fix it (assuming you're even trying)?
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Edward Flores4 said:I’ve always felt that Buddhism is much more of a dialogue than some rigid ideology. At its core—at least the way I see it—it isn't really preoccupied with those heavy theological debates or trying to prove the existence of a higher power. Instead, it focuses almost entirely on the nature of your own consciousness and the reality of who you actually are. It’s an exploration of the self, handled through continuous conversation and inquiry rather than just following a strict, step-by-step manual or a checklist of rules.

Since Buddhism isn't actually an ideology, anyone who goes around calling themselves a "Buddhist" has clearly missed the entire point. Think about it—to be a Buddhist, you’d have to embrace a specific set of dogmas or a rigid belief system, but that core ideology doesn't even exist (outside of the watered-down version you see in pop culture religion). So, really, any kind of self-identification with "Buddhism" is just a roundabout way of proving you don't actually get what it's all about.

I don't know about that. People seem pretty consistent when it comes to identifying with just about everything—and hey, it worked for the author of your signature, I guess. It's just one more little identification. Isn't it better if they identify with something that at least promises access to a state where identification doesn't even exist?

It’s not like reading a single sutra is going to snap them out of the habit of identifying with things instantly.
Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality ·
Yeah, back in the day, the whole idea of God as the Creator was tossed aside—honestly, it happened in a pretty hilarious fashion. 😁

Still, they kept onto concepts like Nirvana and karma, so I suppose Enchi’s question probably applies to Buddhists too.

Anyway, Edward Flores4, what's your actual basis for separating Buddhism from this "popular religion known as Buddhism"?