Edward Flores4 said:Absolutely nothing. It’s just a way of living that tends to cause fewer headaches than other ways of living. It’s kind of like interpretive dance—it doesn't "create" anything tangible... the art is in the dancing itself, or rather, in the living.
Quincy:| A calm, steady mind in people who are truly grounded in their inner being remains peaceful regardless of the circumstances; they don't pick and choose when to be verbally aggressive versus when to stay tolerant—they remain consistent through everything. |
I bet you’ve never heard of Zen Buddhists frequently drawing katanas, fighting wars, or killing when necessary, have you? 🙄
Even plants—which don't even have a "mind"—aren't the same under all conditions; they react differently depending on what's happening around them. They turn toward the sun, they bloom in the spring... things like that. 🙂
Basically, if you think meditation should result in you reacting to everything with total indifference... well, the only way to achieve that would be a lobotomy. As long as you have a brain, fire is hot and ice is cold. 😉
Quincy:| What you're describing is just standard human reactivity. |
Exactly. Reactivity is what separates us from rocks. You can pick up a rock and throw it, and it won't have any capacity to react. Humans, fortunately, do—it just seems some people think losing that ability is some kind of "spiritual achievement." 🙄
Quincy:| ...clouded by some sort of rule that we should be verbally aggressive toward others because, in our judgment, they deserve it. |
And what should we do instead... just stop making judgments? Haven't you just "judged" me right now by deciding you don't agree with my judgment?
Or do you think it's "spiritual" to reduce oneself to the reactivity of a stone—to witness everything that passes by, whether it's pure stupidity or a brilliant idea, with the exact same lack of response?
Quincy:| Verbal aggression is always aggression, and when it isn't fueled by emotion but is instead calculated, it’s just plain old sadism. |
Why do you assume your judgment is any less "clouded" than mine? Is it because some "guru" told you so, or because you're playing around with certain "spiritual rules" that supposedly transcend my "clouded" ones?
Quincy:| No, in this quote, Krishnamurti does a brilliant job of describing what meditation IS NOT. If you read your quote out of context, you might actually think he’s against meditation—which isn't the case at all. What meditation actually IS, he describes right here: |
Unfortunately, it seems like you aren't quite grasping what Krishnamurti is getting at, because not a single part of his text stands in opposition to meditation. He’s simply posing some vital questions.
Even within the quote you provided, the same questions and conclusions remain:
Quincy:| It has no technique and therefore no authority. When you learn about yourself, watch yourself, watch the way you walk, how you eat, what you say, the gossip, the hate, the jealousy – if you are aware of all that in yourself, without any choice, that is part of meditation. |
So, there is NO TECHNIQUE and NO AUTHORITY. Sitting in some specific posture and concentrating on whatever "technique" you're told to follow is still just a technique handed down to you by some authority figure.
That is exactly what I’ve been saying.
Quincy:| - It’s curious how all important meditation becomes, there’s no end to it nor is there a beginning to it. |
So, if there is no beginning and no end... then what's the point of sitting in "cool" poses and trying to split yourself into a "controller" and the "controlled"?
Quincy:| Without laying the foundation of a righteous life, meditation becomes an escape and therefore has no value whatsoever. |
From where I'm standing, everyone here is talking about sitting, shaving, concentration, techniques, being non-reactive, political correctness, authorities...
But nobody is talking about the "foundation of a good life," which is the absolute priority and a prerequisite for meditation. Without that, sitting and meditating is just a distraction—a way to delay actual change by creating the illusion that you're measuring your own progress or moving toward some goal.
Quincy:| Without knowing the activities of the self, meditation becomes sensuous excitement and therefore of very little significance. |
Anyone who thinks they should react equally to every circumstance clearly has a major issue with self-knowledge. And anyone judging others' reactions is only proving they are unaware of their own reactive and judgmental nature. Therefore, meditating in that state serves very little purpose or benefit.
Do you actually understand what you quoted as a "counter-argument," or did you just get hung up on his poetic metaphors regarding meditation?
Quincy:| It is not an intellectual affair, but when the heart enters into the mind, the mind has quite a different quality; it is really, then, limitless, not only in its capacity to think,to act with precision, but also in the sense of existing within a massive expanse where you’re woven into the very fabric of everything. |
So, look—meditation doesn't just shut the mind down. Instead, someone actually living a meditative life possesses "a different quality of mind"—that ability not just to think, but to "respond effectively" (meaning, we aren't tossing out "normal human reactivity" entirely).
Dammit... I honestly feel like you haven't grasped the core of this at all, moving far beyond just simple metaphors. You haven't caught my drift, and you haven't even caught the essence of your own Krishnamurti quote.
Honestly, given how much you seem to be misinterpreting what's being said, I don't really have the heart to keep this discussion going. It's pretty clear you're just reading what you want to see rather than what's actually on the page. Because of that, you're reading my posts through that same lens, which leads to these unnecessary reactions where you end up using my own arguments against me. While it was kind of cute in a way, it's getting tedious and you're mostly just undermining your own point. It's probably best if we just steer clear of these kinds of debates moving forward. 😉
Once again, we have someone drawing conclusions without having any actual knowledge or experience to back them up.
Claiming that meditation is a lifestyle that brings fewer problems while simultaneously reacting to a single post with a massive outburst of anger and rage—all because someone bruised an ego that had drifted into a state where you couldn't even control it anymore, leading you to lash out at everyone until you needed a timeout. 😍
To me, that just screams that you haven't the slightest clue what meditation actually is or how it works.
Someone who truly meditates and has progressed on that path has the capacity to choose how they respond. They might choose not to react because they don't take everything personally, or because they are masters of their own thoughts, emotions, and words. They act with intention, and they certainly wouldn't allow themselves to create the kind of karma you seem to be building up.
A person who lives in a meditative state 24/7 is essentially a sanctuary of peace, love, and tolerance.
Furthermore, you claim there's no technique and no authority, yet here you are quoting Krishnamurti and peddling his theories on what meditation is.
If meditation is supposed to be a way of life that creates fewer problems, why don't you try applying it just once? Maybe then other people's words wouldn't hit you so hard.
Lest we get carried away, let's just say that you demonstrate your "knowledge" of meditation through your actions and your words—from which it's pretty easy to conclude that you don't understand it at all. You clearly aren't practicing it, let alone living in that state 24 hours a day. 😉