silentraven6 said:I don't really know what to make of this one yet. It feels like there's more to the story, but I'm just sitting here trying to process it all. Honestly, it’s a lot to take in. kaže:
The way things have been handled up until now—and honestly, I suspect they’ll stay that way—is that high school English classes basically function as a chronological tour through literary history. The focus tends to land on those massive, foundational works that actually shifted the needle or introduced a major new movement. The general philosophy seems to be that for the average student, it’s enough to walk away from the class having grasped the core essentials of each work: you know, the basic themes, the main motifs, and just enough literary theory to make sense of the structure.
I really think the core idea here should be that, as a society, we need to master the basics: being able to actually write in our own language and truly understand what we’re reading. Beyond just the mechanics, though, there's this vital awareness that every single piece of literature is its own unique universe. An author's work isn't some static thing; interpretation and how we experience a story are entirely subjective. To me, that’s where the magic happens—diving into those different perspectives and debating the world within a book. It’s honestly such a blast because those discussions open up endless possibilities, all stemming from our own messy, diverse characters and life experiences.
Honestly, I think a meaningful, well-argued debate—you know, like being tasked to write an essay breaking down specific parts of the text—about the positive or negative traits of Bella’s character in Twilight would be way more valuable than just memorizing a bunch of random bullet points about Fishing and fishing regulations. It feels pointless when a student can just Google the answers and find exactly what they need in seconds. Fishing and Fisherman’s Complaints I was just revisiting this classic piece about Fishing, and honestly, it hits much differently when you really sit with it. It’s one of those stories that feels like it could have been written yesterday because human nature doesn't change all that much, does it? We love to complain, even when things are actually going pretty well. The whole premise centers on this guy who is out on the water, and instead of just enjoying the peace or being grateful for whatever he catches, he spends his entire time grumbling about how unfair everything is. It’s that universal human tendency to focus on the one thing that went wrong rather than the thousand things that went right. You know the type—the person who wins the lottery but complains the ticket was slightly wrinkled. It makes me think about how often we do this in our own lives here in the States. We get a promotion at work, but we immediately start stressing about the longer commute. We land a great house in a nice suburb, but then we spend all weekend complaining about the HOA rules. We’re experts at finding the friction in an otherwise smooth ride. There’s something deeply humbling about the way the story handles the fisherman's attitude. It forces you to look in the mirror and ask: "Am I being the person who appreciates the catch, or am I the one complaining about the weight of the net?" It’s a heavy read, but in a quiet, necessary kind of way. It’s less about the act of Fishing itself and more about the internal struggle to find contentment in a world that constantly gives us reasons to be dissatisfied. Definitely worth a reread if you're feeling a bit cynical lately. Then you’ve got to learn how to actually recite it. I mean, it’s an epic poem that functions like a travelogue, weaving in quotes and verses from all sorts of other works. On top of that, the whole thing is written in these double-rhymed dodecasyllables. It's pretty intense stuff once you get into the rhythm of it.
I honestly don't know if this is how the experts say it should be done, but then again, how are you even supposed to identify which students are actually capable of pulling out the "essential data"? Some kids might just breeze right past those key moments thinking they aren't important. To me, though, it feels like we're just stripping the soul out of literature—turning everything into this completely sterile, lifeless exercise.
Look, I might be completely off base here—and honestly, I could be totally wrong—but I just don't see how forcing students to memorize this kind of granular data about a text actually helps their literacy. How does knowing these specific details contribute to them actually becoming better readers?
Back in high school, I was definitely one of those students who lived for the literature discussions—you know, getting lost in deep dives about character arcs, symbolism, and overarching themes. But when it came to this kind of raw data? Forget it. I’d probably cram all that info the night before an exam and then completely flush it from my brain the second I handed in my paper.
Look, I mean, let's be real here—it’s just plain easier to grade a test when you're actually hunting for "correct answers" within it. I don't know... maybe that's exactly where the problem lies? 🤷
This kind of insight is absolutely vital for anyone who actually makes a living through literature. Students rarely truly internalize the material; instead, they just end up memorizing raw data that feels like total abstraction to most of them. I mean, I could at least wrap my head around it if we were being asked to count syllables or figure out rhyme schemes ourselves, but that’s not how it usually works. It’s just handed to you on a silver platter by the teacher. At least in my experience, it was always just some set of terms the professor would scribble on the chalkboard while we sat there mindlessly copying everything into our notebooks.
That’s exactly why we’re seeing this shift where students don't actually read anymore—they just memorize summaries and bullet points. Honestly, if anything, it's just clear proof that this entire style of teaching is fundamentally broken.
Books are starting to feel like empty shells. Honestly, there’s just no substance left in that kind of approach anymore.
It’s actually pretty common to see students pull off an A in English class without ever having cracked open a single book.
Why do people even bother writing books in the first place? Is it so that someone else can pick them up, see their own lives reflected on the page, and maybe walk away with some heavy questions or a few much-needed answers? Or is the ultimate goal just to land on a high school reading list, forcing students to memorize a bunch of bullet points about a character's traits just so they can scrape by on an exam?
I have the exact same complaints when it comes to language arts classes. Honestly, they could strip the entire curriculum down to nothing but grammar and spelling, and it would still be an improvement. At least then we’d actually graduate people who know how to correctly spell basic things like "don't know," "flower," "house," or "doubt." 😁
Daisy, let’s start with the language aspect. You’re honestly off base there. It’s not like anyone struggles to just Google spelling rules nowadays, but true literacy isn't built on some arbitrary consensus of rules—it's built on actual grammar.
The thing is, most people don't even grasp this, let alone have the capacity to teach it properly... and look, I'm not trying to write a whole dissertation here 😁 but that's why I keep harping on the fact that the core of any reform lies with the people actually teaching it. And frankly, that sector is a mess right now.
As for the works by Hemingway, you really picked a perfect example. His stuff is an incredible model for how to approach methodical analysis and serves as a stellar roadmap for comparative study. 😁
I think you might be oversimplifying things because of some bad personal experiences. When it comes to meeting students halfway, giving them freedom, and opening up new perspectives, we aren't going to go so far as to reduce reading down to nothing more than raw emotion, character tropes, or ideological takes. To truly understand a text, you have to understand how it was constructed.
That’s not a field for amateurs. Being a true expert is a given. What a high schooler needs to know is how the paradigm shifts—how meter changes, how the influence of Latin fades, how literature opens up to the vernacular and develops new rhythms. And, of course, the "taste" of the era. You take that info, you count the syllables, and you work with what resonates with them today—like analyzing the rhythm in modern spoken-word poetry, for instance.
You shouldn't be radical about this. You need a deep command of the subject matter before you start throwing things out the window.
Oh, and of course they count syllables and learn rhyme. That's taught in a completely different way than just dictating rules and scribbling them on a chalkboard... though, seeing your take, it sounds like you didn't exactly have great teachers growing up.
I honestly have no idea what you're even trying to say right now.
English is just what we grew up speaking; it’s our mother tongue through and through.
You know, I’ve always felt that we pick up the rules of grammar almost like we're breathing—it just happens naturally while we're kids, sort of like how you learn to ride a bike or catch a baseball without ever actually reading a manual on physics. It’s all about intuition; you aren't sitting there with a textbook memorizing syntax, you're just absorbing the rhythm of how people talk until it becomes second nature.
Do you ever run into Americans living right here in the States who just can't seem to wrap their heads around basic grammar, like tripping over verb tenses or totally butchering how to decline a word?
I know every single English professor out there is convinced that every citizen needs a dedicated lesson on how to properly master the "jotation" sound, but honestly, it’s kind of funny when you think about it—every single person in this country was already nailing that pronunciation perfectly back when they were just toddlers.
It’s honestly pretty wild how much people still struggle with basic grammar and spelling in their own language. I’m talking about professionals with college degrees—people I deal with constantly in my day-to-day business dealings—who just can't seem to get it right. And don't even get me started on the kids scrolling through the internet all day; if the professionals can't manage it, we're really in trouble.
I honestly feel like what people really need to focus on is just being able to get their thoughts down on paper without making those sloppy mistakes. You know, the kind where you can tell someone didn't even bother to proofread? At the end of the day, grammar is more of an intuitive thing anyway—it’s like riding a bike or knowing how to carry a conversation; once you have a handle on the flow of the language, the rules sort of just click into place naturally.
I’m honestly not even sure if I’m following you anymore, because I can't wrap my head around where you're finding people who actually struggle with basic grammar in their own language.
Look, I know I tend to get a little carried away during these debates, but honestly, I just feel like we’re losing the plot. We really ought to be focusing on the actual substance of what's being said, rather than getting boggeduk in the weeds over technicalities like specific vowel shifts or the complex verb tenses of our native tongue. If we want to actually get somewhere, that's where the focus needs to be.
It’s not just about getting the spelling right, though; honestly, I feel like people struggle to even get their thoughts out of their heads and onto the page in a way that actually makes sense. To me, being truly fluent in a language means more than just following grammar rules—it's about having the ability to write anything at all, whether you're drafting a serious academic paper or just rambling on about some cheesy vampire novel you just finished reading.
When it comes to Hector, you really hit the nail on the head picking that specific work; it’s honestly such a perfect example of how deep methodological processing can go, and it serves as an incredible roadmap if anyone is looking to dive into some comparative analysis. 😁
Honestly, back when I was seventeen, none of that would have done anything for me. I really wouldn't have given a damn about some guy sailing around Santa Catalina with a couple of fishermen just to scribble down some poems.
Look, even though we’re working on stepping back, giving the students more breathing room, and trying to open their minds to different perspectives, I don't want us to fall into the trap of stripping reading down to nothing more than just raw emotion, character tropes, or political commentary. If we want them to actually grasp what a text is doing, they have to understand the mechanics behind it—you can't truly get the soul of a story without understanding how the actual architecture of the writing was built.
I honestly don't see that happening, because God forbid they actually admit that being an English professor is basically irrelevant to everyone else in the room who isn't trying to become one—and let's be real, in a class of thirty, there are probably twenty-nine kids who couldn't care less about it.
What high schoolers really need to grasp is that the whole foundation is shifting—we're talking about a total paradigm shift in how we handle things like hexameter or Latin. The way classical studies interact with the vernacular is changing, creating this entirely new kind of rhythmic flow. It’s all about catching the vibe of the era. Once you actually understand that, you can start playing around with syllable counts based on what people actually find appealing today, like taking modern recitative pieces and mapping out their rhythm to see how they stack up.
Regarding this whole situation, I honestly wouldn't go so far as to say that even a single student in a vocational school needs to be familiar with this stuff.
urbantinker8 said:Fine, but then just say it out loud: let's add this to the required reading list as an example of trash lit and let the kids debate it until they're blue in the face.👍
Instead of just haphazardly tossing in various "authors" without any real criteria or cohesive plan... just as examples of... nothing, really.
It seems like as long as it's modern and easy to digest, the actual value doesn't matter much.
🙏
...and let's not forget those summer makeup classes that would probably be held until August 1st in 105-degree weather.
We'll all just pass out from heatstroke, I suppose.🙄
I mean, personally, it doesn't matter too much to me since our board meetings always run until July 15th, so we're already sitting in a greenhouse at 95 degrees anyway, but imagine adding thirty students to a single room for five or six or seven hours a day in that heat...🙂
I’m not even sure if you actually sat down and looked at the reading list, or if you just saw a headline in some article claiming that someone like Bruce Springsteen is going to be in there.
Most of the books they've included are basically modern classics that actually hold weight.
Personally, I can't stand reading those old-school classics from centuries ago. I just don't care about them—the language feels exhausting, the themes feel totally foreign, and I can't relate to what's driving the characters. There's nothing in those old books that resonates with me at all.
But the thing is, that's exactly how most students feel too.
So, instead of actually reading the books, they just read SparkNotes.
And rather than admitting that, everyone plays pretend and acts like it isn't happening, because, let's be real, in a class of 30 kids, you'll probably have one kid who would actually major in English lit and wants to dive into *Paradise Lost*.
It doesn't matter if the other 29 aren't reading anything at all.
That's just great logic right there.
God forbid we approach it by saying, "Well, let that one kid read *Paradise Lost* on their own time or in college if they're actually into it."
Here's a great piece from a columnist on this exact topic:
http://www.nytimes.com/article/people-who-read...ponat/1534121/