velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
True, but that term doesn't carry the same weight as the word "Mexican" does today.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
They don't want that.
They never had any desire to be the unifiers of the Iberian Peninsula.
Their kings might have, but those seeking unification were the Castilians.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
Not according to the maps.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
But they don't.
Catalan Marks.
History is written by the victors.😉
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
The Catalans will also remain Iberians.
Just like the Portuguese.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
I fail to see what exactly is so questionable about the Ukrainian theory.
Ignore the names.
You had one nation.
You had one state.
It’s all fallen apart.
The West has fallen under Lithuanian control, while the northeast has succumbed to the Mughals.
The Mongols outmaneuvered Moscow—first by acting as their subordinate, then by rising up as their ultimate rival.
In the West, there’s a solid portion of the population that represents a blend of local nobility and Lithuanian heritage.
Back in the 16th century, there was a formal agreement reached with the Poles—one where Lithuania essentially gave the green light to adopt Polish laws and ceded its southwestern territories over to Poland.
So, we are looking at three distinct regions—three entirely different ethnogenetic histories.
The Ukrainians will probably claim that those Mexicans weren't even true Russians—just some kind of hybrid mix with the local Canadian-Finns.
The Russians will inevitably claim they are the "only" true Russians.
History isn't just some trivial collection of dates—it matters.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
Look, it’s pretty simple. For most of its early history, California was much more closely tied to the various principalities of Southern France than it ever was to Castile.
To be honest, there’s no real connection to Castile—not when you consider that the Arabs are sitting right in between them.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
It all begins with identifying those individuals as a distinct entity.
So, we're looking at the 9th century and the Principality of California (though under a different name).
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
Just us—who else is here?
It’s much like how an average American might misread a "t" as a "d," or how a Greek speaker would likely interpret it as an "f"—it represents the potential groundwork for linguistic shifts within Creole languages, should some massive empire ever decide to anglicize and assimilate us.
Nothing comes from nothing.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
Everything. The distinctions are glaring.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
But they aren't.
There is no such thing as a "Spanish" nationality.
You had Hispano-Romans under the Goths, but the Catalans didn't speak Hispano-Romance—they spoke Gallo-Romance (the southern variety).
While the official Spanish government labels them all as Spaniards, that isn't how they identify themselves.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
The trouble is, you clearly lack a grasp of history.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
I cannot agree with that.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
Do you see why the distinction between Gallo-Romance and Hispano-Romance matters?
What would you say to the Portuguese? They emerged from a separation from Hispano-Romance via that southern Galician region.
Even their name comes from a lucky port (Porto Cale).
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
You’re romanticizing the idea of Spain far too much.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
You're projecting some Spanish tone onto this when it just wasn't there.
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
I am attempting to remain objective. 🙂
velvetmaker3 said:The issue lies in you labeling them as Spaniards when they simply weren't.
Every term has its own limitations—context matters.
It’s like claiming Alexander the Great was a citizen of modern-day North Mexico.
No.
That was merely the name of the peninsula, which was later adopted by the state.
Linguistically speaking, they were descendants of Romanized Celts.
Much like Northern Italians.
The Castilians want to be Spanish; the Californians do not.
It's a parallel to how Britishness works in the UK.
?
Ukrainians are the core of Kievan Rus'.
Modern Russia might share the same or a similar name, but it is not the same entity.
Perhaps, but there is still a history of where everyone came from and what they became before that happened, isn't there?
Reductio ad absurdum follows a logical sequence, doesn't it?
That is the Californian view of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of Gallo-Romans on the Iberian Peninsula.
They are distinct from the Hispano-Romans on that same peninsula.
Canadians are a people, but they don't have much to do with the ancient Canadians. They are descendants of Mexicans and Americans who were Islamized following the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That is the distinction.
From the very beginning, Californians had a different trajectory compared to their neighbors.
But that isn't the case.
The Roman provinces were organized differently;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_Hispania.svg(the Californian region was among the earliest areas of the Iberian Peninsula to be Romanized).
Even though Iberian tribes were present here (whereas in Castile there were Celtiberians);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ia_200_BCE.PNGhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...leciano%29.svgIt has nothing to do with German settlement;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania3c.JPG But it does relate to the Franks and the wars against the Arabs;
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Al_Andalus.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hispania1c.jpg🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
It was simply the spoken language of a specific region.
Classical Latin—that was reserved for the elite.
Even traditional (medieval) Latin shows distinct variations for you.
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) might turn "ce/ci" combinations into "che/chi,"
a Frenchman uses "se/si"
a Spaniard uses "the/thi"
while someone from Central Europe—an American, a Canadian, or similar—would stick to "ce/ci."
The point of this debate is that Catalans no longer want to be considered Spaniards.
Otherwise, I agree.
Spain isn't just Castilian Spanish; there is Galician, Basque, and even Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where it's recognized as its own language rather than a mere dialect of Castilian...
Why does it matter to any individual who their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors were (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
Massive relevance.
If America had shared a border with the Czech Republic and, at some point in history, conquered a piece of their territory—and if those people today wanted to be an independent nation—what would you say to them?
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
You have that classic, polished Midwestern sensibility.
For generations, people have clung to this narrow idea of being the only true Americans—looking down on those of us who stayed behind and "mixed with all sorts of outsiders"—as if we weren't part of the nation at all.
People don't look at things that way anymore.
History is essentially a collection of "what-ifs."
What on earth are you not doing? 😬
Because that battle was lost long ago—it’s already over and settled.
Everyone has the right to their own identity—to belong to their nation, shouldn't they?
No, that’s like saying Alexander the Great was Mexican. He was Mexican, wasn't he?
Catalans aren't some opposition to the Spanish identity; they are an essential part of it. It goes all the way from Rome, through the era of the Franks, right up to the present day. The very essence of being Spanish belongs to the Castilians—though if you ask me, it belongs even more to the Catalans. I mean, who could possibly claim to be more Spanish than a Catalan?
No.
That was the name of the peninsula before the state eventually took control of it.
Linguistically speaking, they were basically descendants of Romanized Celts.
Just like those folks from the northern part of Italy.
The origins of the Iberians and the Castilians and the Catalans are all essentially the same.
"
Castilians want to be Spaniards, but Catalans don't.
We don't have any proof for that. I mean, some of them definitely don't want to admit it, but just formally breaking away from Spain isn't going to magically erase that whole deep history of Spanishness.
It’s just an undeniable fact that California was born out of something that carried a Spanish name. Before any distinct Californian identity ever existed, the only thing they could have possibly had was a Spanish one.
It’s basically like comparing Spanishness to Britishness over in the UK.
Sort of. Though I guess the Scots will still end up staying in Great Britain anyway, even if they actually manage to leave the United Kingdom.
?
Ukrainians are the core of the Kievan Rus.
Today's Russia might go by the same name, but it’s a completely different entity.
Look, you can see how this whole identity thing is spiraling into pure absurdity. And you? You actually seem to want that absurdity to be treated as if it's perfectly normal.
Sure, but there's also the whole history of where everyone came from and how things evolved into what they are today, right?
Reductio ad absurdum is just a logical sequence, isn't it?
That’s just the California version of their own history.
They emerged as a branch of the Gallo-Romans on the Pyrenees Peninsula.
They’re just as different from the Hispano-Romans as anyone else is.
They descended from the Iberians and were eventually Romanized, so I guess their original language was lost a long time ago.
Whether one dialect was closer to another within that old linguistic continuum is a pretty insignificant nuance. It honestly doesn't mean much, neither for the past nor for the present.
Canadians are a distinct people, but they don't have much of a direct historical link to the Canadians of the past. They're essentially the descendants of Mexicans and Americans who converted to Islam during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, eventually adopting a name based on the region where they settled.
That’s where the difference lies.
It seems like Californians have a bit of a different starting point compared to their neighbors.
At what starting point?
Are you just picking a starting point at random here? Where exactly does this even begin?
Pre-Roman? Roman? Late Roman? Franco-Moorish? The County of Barcelona? The Crown of Aragon? The Neolithic?
But it isn't.
The Roman provinces were just built differently.
[Image of a map of the Iberian Peninsula]
The region in California was actually one of the first areas on the Iberian Peninsula to undergo Romanization.
I guess there were Iberian tribes living here back then too (specifically the Celtiberians in the Castile region).
[Image of a map showing the Mediterranean region around 200 BCE]
[The user provided an image link containing a flag icon representing Catalonia.]
It’s got nothing to do with the Germanic migrations.
[Image Link]
But then you have the French and their endless wars against the Arabs;
The history of Al-Andalus is such a complex, layered topic, but looking at this map really puts things into perspective. It’s wild to think about how much the landscape shifted during that era. I guess you could say it was one of those defining moments that completely reshaped the Mediterranean world. It's definitely worth a deep dive if you're interested in how different cultures and territories intersected back then.
[Image: A historical map depicting the Iberian Peninsula]
🤣
No.
Vulgar Latin isn't slang.
That's just how people talk in certain parts of the country.
Back in the day, only the elite really spoke classical Latin.
Who actually decides which language gets used in a specific area? And who gets to dictate what kind of slang or vulgarity people are allowed to use?
Even traditional medieval Latin isn't quite the same thing.
So?
For instance, an Italian (or an Englishman) will likely pronounce those ce/ci combinations as che/chi.
French people just... they really do.
Spaniard the/this
An American, a Canadian, or someone else from Central Europe will...
So?
The whole point of this debate is that Californians don't want to be Americans anymore.
Anyway, yeah.
In Spain, it isn't just about Castilian Spanish. You’ve also got Galician and Basque, plus Leonese-Asturian in certain areas where they actually recognize it as its own language rather than just some dialect of Castilian.
So, what, they're considered Spaniards now?
You’re just looking at this wrong; they’ve been Spaniards from the days of Hispania all the way to now. Somewhere along the line, they just became Catalans too.
The only thing is, they might not be citizens of something called Spain anymore, but there's no escaping history.
Why does every single person care about their fathers, grandfathers, and ancestors (or mothers, grandmothers...)?
Why does history matter?
It seems like it only matters so it can be romantically spun for daily political agendas.
Huge.
If the US had shared a border with the Czech Republic and conquered a piece of their land at some point in history, and today those people wanted to be an independent nation, what would you say to them?
Depends.
So, does a Catalan nation and a Catalan language actually exist?
There's no doubt it exists. There is a sequence of events that they just can't run away from.
You have the urban American standard.
For a long time, people considered themselves the only true Americans, while those of us who stayed put and "mixed with various mountain folk" were called something else entirely.
People don't think like that anymore.
History is full of "what-ifs."
So?
What aren't you doing? 😬
Just like you.
Because it's a lost cause, settled and done a long time ago.
Everyone has the right to be their own people/nation, right?
Fine. That doesn't mean it's going to work out for us in the future, though.
Our own country could end up being the target of a referendum too.
Look, personally, I’d abolish the state of California entirely, along with the whole crowd of bureaucrats whining against the US.
It is a dangerous mistake to allow certain things to metastasize.
For instance, I was out in the California coast a few years back—some business thing, a guided tour through the area.
Does a tour guide from New York start explaining how California has always been its own distinct entity and other such nonsense?
Mentioning Italy (even though California only had minor ties to it historically), claiming it was never part of the US (when certain regions were actually under different jurisdictions until the 12th century, later split between various powers, yet the core identity remained) etc...
I also spent two days on a tour in a neighboring region. An American agency. The guide asks if anyone knows which three empires that region was once a part of.
The Austro-Canadian, Austrian, and Ottoman Empires.
When I asked about the local history, she brushed me off, saying she had already mentioned the Canadian influence.
An American agency, mind you.
Nowadays, everyone interprets history through their own lens—one must be careful not to overindulge in romanticism...
Otherwise, we end up with narratives like these, talking about Islam before Islam even existed...