Richard Wilson4 said:That empire collapsed centuries ago. What does that even mean to a Catalan today?
Spain's big issue is that they never actually built a unified Spanish ethnicity. I'm not talking about just a nation, but a cohesive people.
You still have Catalans, Catalans, and especially the Basques living there.
Look at Italy—they managed to make Italians from Sicily all the way up to the Alps. Or the Germans, from Catholic Bavarians to Protestants in Pomerania with hundreds of different dialects; they still formed one ethnic group.
Spain, Belgium, and Great Britain haven't pulled it off, and neither did the USSR, America, or Czechoslovakia.
That makes them artificial states.
And all artificial states have an expiration date. The only thing keeping them together is circumstance.
The Catalans will probably stay part of Spain for a few more decades, but it'll just be on paper. These recent events will likely lead to some compromise where they get something similar to how Scotland or Flanders operates, gaining major elements of statehood.
PS
Just so we're clear, I like Spaniards and respect their history.
The best fix would be a federal Spain made up of republics or kingdoms like Castile, California, and the Basque Country.
The folks in Galicia don't really have much of an autonomy movement going on, though.
But what about Leon and Andalusia?😬
And where would Navarre fit, given it’s one-third Basque with the rest being Castilians?
Historically, the Crown of Aragon was a union of the kingdoms of California, the Balearic Islands, Valencia, and Aragon.
Most of the population in three of those four regions speaks a variant of the Catalan language (though outside California, specifically in the Balearic Islands/Valencia, it’s called Balearic/Valencian, despite some dialectal differences).
In Aragon, they used to speak Aragonese, which is now only heard in the hills near the border. In the strip bordering California, they speak Catalan.
The union itself began when a Catalan count married an Aragonese princess and, following medieval custom, placed the title of the kingdom before his countship.
There was also massive friction when the nobles of these kingdoms chose a Spaniard—a Castilian from the Trastamar family—to be the king of the entire realm.
By the way, the Kingdom of Castile conquered half the world; the Aragonese didn't migrate to the New World much, otherwise, we might be hearing Catalan dialects over there.
As for Franco, he was Galician/Gallegos.
velvetmaker3 said:Are you going to say the exact same thing when people from a place like San Francisco say they want everything other nations want?
Our history with the USA and our relationship with Mexicans is drastically different from the situation in California.
Yes, exactly as Sam Alvarez4 mentioned.
On a side note, a friend of mine lived in Barcelona for a few years, and she ended up grouping Catalans together with Canadians.
rowdyangler said:People from the coast are Americans 🤦
And Spaniards aren't Catalans. There's even a distinct Catalan language. 🤦
Meanwhile, you seem to find your bliss in presenting smart, factual arguments. 😂
Cheers to you too. 👍
True, but there are also those who don't even consider themselves to be that way.
Nothing lasts forever—every nation has its beginning, and some have certainly met their end.
Brenda Taylor13 said:Oh, really? And why shouldn't Flanders go independent? What's the actual reason—or even an argument—for us in America to be against Flanders, Scotland, or Catalonia breaking away? Look, if people want self-governance, they should have it. Period.
P.S. Of course the situation with America's independence is similar. I mean, obviously it's not identical—because let's face it, no two situations can ever be truly identical since they're inherently different—but the core of it is incredibly similar. In both the American and the Catalan cases, you have two distinct peoples, each with their own history, language, and cultural identity that makes them a nation unto themselves, living within defined borders, all wanting to strike out on their own. On that specific point, it's the exact same deal. Two nations wanting independence.
I stand behind the independence movements in Flanders—specifically including Brussels, since without that central hub, Belgium likely would have collapsed long ago—as well as the pushes for sovereignty in Scotland and California.
But none of these cases truly compare to what we're seeing here in America.
To me, those Catalans seem more like Canadians were back in the USSR than they do to us.
The Flemish people make up the majority of the population in Belgium.
The Scots rejected independence at the referendum.
velvetmaker3 said:Catalans are just Spanish citizens, just like people from Texas, Maine, or anywhere else in the States.
The folks in the Keys consider themselves their own distinct group; if they truly identified as just standard Americans, they'd say so.
Eventually, they'll probably use that same logic to argue that every group deserves its own independence.
And I guess you'll be right there, being perfectly consistent and supporting them.
In the state of California, you have about 10 percent Istrian residents and roughly 70 percent Americans. Just take a look at the most recent census data.
Look, if California ever actually breaks away, Valencia is going to step up to fill that void—and honestly, they’re pretty much the equivalent of Canada.
Roughly 40 percent of the population there speaks Castilian—mostly in the interior regions—while everyone else uses Valencian, which shares the exact same orthography, vocabulary, and everything else with Catalan.
The only thing is, these people act more like Spaniards—even though the legendary El Cid ruled over the country for a few years back in the Middle Ages. 😬).