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Where is it okay to share scientific facts about domestic abuse? in Feedback & Suggestions ·
So, there’s this massive meta-analysis on domestic abuse—it basically pulls together 1,700 scientific studies—and the results are actually pretty eye-opening. I was wondering, though, if it’s actually allowed on this Reddit to bring up hard scientific facts? If it is, maybe someone could point me toward the right spot to share this data (and please, let it not be lonebadger6).
If you aren't really in the mood to slog through the whole thing, just look at the bold parts:

WHICH GENDER IS MORE PHYSICALLY VIOLENT?

http://www.domesticviolenceresearch.org/

ABOUT PASK, THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE KNOWLEDGE PROJECT
The world's largest domestic violence research database, spanning 2,657 pages and featuring summaries of 1,700 peer-reviewed studies
.

Again:
The largest study on domestic abuse, condensing 1,700 scientific studies— scientific papers conducted using rigorous methodology and published in peer-reviewed journals.

Over the years, I feel like research on domestic abuse has become unnecessarily fragmented and bogged down by politics. The purpose of The Domestic Violence Knowledge Project is to pull together everything we know about domestic abuse in a way that's rigorously evidence-based, transparent, and methodical, providing reliable, up-to-date research that's easy for both academics and the general public to access.
In March 2010, the senior editor of domestic abuse recruited family violence scholars from the United States, Canada and the USA to conduct an extensive and thorough review of the empirical literature, covering 17 broad topic areas. These researchers were tasked with performing a formal search for published, peer-reviewed studies using standard, widely-used search tools, and then cataloging and summarizing all known research relevant to each major topic and its sub-topics. In the interest of thoroughness and transparency, the researchers agreed to summarize all quantitative studies published in peer-reviewed journals after 1990, as well as any major studies published prior to that time, while being very clear about their exclusion criteria. The included studies are organized into detailed tables, with each table containing summaries of studies specific to its sub-topic.
In this massive undertaking, a total of 42 scholars and 70 research assistants across 20 universities and research institutions spent two years or more diving into their topics and drafting the results. They looked at roughly 12,000 studies and ended up summarizing and organizing more than 1,700 of them into tables. The 17 manuscripts, which offer a full review of findings for each topic and total 2,657 pages, were released in 5 consecutive special issues of domestic abuse published between April 2012 and April 2013. Every conclusion, including how much the evidence actually backs up or contradicts current theories, is based strictly on the data they collected.

1.

Basically, the results showed that physical IPV victimization is significant for both men and women in heterosexual relationships. Across all studies included in this review, approximately one in four women (23.1%) and one in five men (19.3%) experienced physical violence in an intimate relationship, leading to an overall pooled prevalence estimate of 22.4%

2.

About one in five (22.9%) people reported perpetrating physical IPV in their current or most recent relationship. Staying consistent with previous reviews, rates of physical IPV perpetrated by men and women were generally more similar than they were different, though rates for women were slightly higher than for men (the pooled prevalence was 28.3% for female perpetration and 21.6% for male perpetration).

REPEATING THIS: female perpetration = 28.3% and male perpetration = 21.6%.


3.

When it comes to emotional abuse, prevalence rates might average around 80%, with 40% of women and 32% of men reporting expressive aggression.(i.e., things like verbal lashings or emotional strikes triggered by some kind of upsetting situation), and 41% of women and 43% of men actually reported experiencing some type of coercive control.

4.

Then there's the second point, where studies looking at why people actually lash out—the big motivations behind the violence—often ended up showing pretty similar patterns for both men and women. Like, Kernsmith (2005) pointed out that the main reason that men and women alike turned to domestic abuse was basically just wanting to get even with a partner who had hurt them emotionally. Kernsmith also noted that stuff like self-defense, pure anger, or just trying to stop a partner from doing something certain were all pretty standard motives for both genders. Leisring (2011) found something similar, noting that for college-aged women, the most frequent drivers for minor physical violence were retaliation for emotional pain, anger, or maybe just stress and jealousy. It’s much the same with Shorey et al. (2010), who concluded that for both men and women, the primary triggers involved retaliating for emotional wounds, venting anger, struggling to express feelings they couldn't quite put into words, or simply trying to grab their partner's attention.

5.

When you look at the studies that tried to directly compare the two, it gets a bit messy; out of the 12 papers that looked at whether gender plays a role in the power/control motive, four didn't even run statistical analyses on their data. Among those that did, three reported absolutely no meaningful gender differences when it came to using power or control as a motivation for violence. One specific paper suggested women might actually be more driven by power/control than men are. Meanwhile, the other three papers followed what you'd expect based on traditional gender theories, finding that men leaned more heavily on power/control motives than women did (Barnett et al., 1997; Ehrensaft et al., 1999; Shorey et al, 2010). Then there was that one final study that just gave totally mixed results (Makepeace, 1986).

6.

There is also some empirical backing for the idea that women tend to cite self-defense as a motive more often than men do. Out of the ten papers that used actual gender-specific statistics, five showed that women were significantly more likely than men to claim self-defense as their reason. On the flip side, four papers didn't see any statistically significant difference between the genders at all, and only a single paper suggested men might be more likely to use that excuse (Shorey et al., 2010). I guess we really need to dig deeper into whether this trend holds true across all types of people, regardless of age or ethnicity, to see if it's actually universal. Even though half of these 29 studies did show gender gaps, it’s worth remembering that only a small minority of people in most samples—regardless of whether they are men or women—actually cite self-defense as their motivation for violence. If you look at people who aren't perpetrators, the self-defense claims from men hovered between 0% and 21%, while for women, it was between 5% and 35%. The highest numbers (50% for men and 65.4% for women) came from groups of actual perpetrators, who, let's face it, might have a bit of an incentive to exaggerate how much they were just defending themselves.

7.

As for the massive amount of research looking into gendered arrest rates, the consensus seems to be that men are generally much more likely to be taken into custody than women are.

8.

In the limited number of studies that actually dive into conviction and sentencing differences, most have found that male defendants are statistically more likely to be convicted and end up with harsher sentences compared to female defendants.
The Istanbul Convention in Feedback & Suggestions ·
lonebadger6 said:When it comes to all those theories and grand ideas about a world where men—specifically white, Christian men—are being persecuted or stripped of their rights... I mean, look, I’m not saying there isn't injustice directed toward men, obviously, but you guys have had like a thousand opportunities to keep this conversation grounded in actual reality, and yet, somehow, you haven't taken a single one of those chances. On Politics, we pretty much brush those ideas off the same way we handle stuff about anti-vax movements or chemtrails and that kind of thing. So, I guess if the moderators feel like it, maybe you could try moving those discussions over to Alternative or On the Edge of Intelligence. I don't really see why they wouldn't agree to that, though, I suppose I can't exactly speak for them, can I?

So, I guess...

I guess we really need to talk about how blatant the discrimination against men has become lately, especially over at Alternative and those fringe outlets that claim to be operating on the edge of science, though I'm not so sure they actually are. It feels like there's this constant, heavy bias working against guys in those spaces, and honestly, it’s just exhausting to watch.

And what about all that talk regarding discrimination against women in politics? I mean, I guess you could look at it from a dozen different angles, maybe, but there’s always that lingering sense that the playing field isn't exactly level, regardless of how many laws we pass or how much rhetoric we hear in Washington. It feels like one of those things where you think you've made progress, only to realize the systemic hurdles are just shifting around, which is honestly pretty exhausting if you ask me.

I mean, I don't know, does it not feel like you guys are basically just practicing a different kind of discrimination against men right now? It seems like that's what's happening, I guess, though maybe I'm just looking at it through a pretty cynical lens.

So, what are we actually doing here? Are we really going to sit around and talk about how twenty thousand men—not women, mind you, though I guess the advocates for that kind of discrimination are staying suspiciously quiet—are being essentially crushed by the "military reserve" system? Or maybe we’re supposed to pivot and discuss the latest batch of laws and regulations being pushed through Congress, those things that look perfectly fine on paper until you actually live through them? I don't know, I guess it feels like we're just circling the drain of the conversation. I guess you could say things are looking a bit different now, or maybe I’m just seeing them through a slightly more jaded lens than I used to, but everything feels somewhat... varied, if that makes sense. It’s all just a little different, I suppose. I mean, I guess you could say they’re treating men and women like they’re just some kind of... Alternative? It feels like that, maybe. Everything is shifting, and honestly, I don't know where we're headed with all this, but it feels like the whole concept of how we view gender is being pushed onto this weird, experimental Alternative path, if that makes any sense. I don't know. It's all a bit much, I suppose.

So, I was sitting there watching this movie, and I couldn't help but feel like the whole thing was built on a bit of a lie—specifically regarding that official title, the Istanbul Convention. It just felt... off, you know? Like they were trying to sell us one version of reality while the actual substance was doing something else entirely. I guess it’s just one of those things where the branding doesn't quite match the weight of what's actually being discussed, though maybe I'm just being overly cynical about the way media handles these big, heavy topics. It felt a little deceptive, if I'm being honest, almost like the title itself was a bit of a smokescreen.
The Istanbul Convention in Feedback & Suggestions ·
lonebadger6 said:The whole issue, I suppose, is that the discussion wasn't actually heading anywhere productive; instead, despite a handful of moderator warnings and various strikes or bans, it just kept getting dragged away into this endless loop about alleged widespread misandry, and by the time things were finally locked down, almost everything being said was either about that or some other off-topic nonsense. We'll probably reopen it soon, though we just need to hammer out a few more details first.

I mean, where exactly are we forbidden from discussing "alleged misandry"? Is that even an actual restricted topic?
Susan Taylor72 said:Like I mentioned before, there’s actually a way to get a quick rundown of a movie's vibe without wasting half your afternoon on it.
Regarding the ideological stuff in movies—I mean, you're totally right that the big-name mainstream critics don't really bother digging into that much—but it’s not like there aren't people out there providing deep, intellectually honest takes for those who actually care about it, which clearly includes you. For instance, I always find reading Jacobin's film reviews pretty interesting, even if I don't agree with everything they say. And if you're looking for things like feminist or queer theory critiques, unlike what you're after, there are tons of blogs dedicated to dissecting those specific angles. I'm guessing you aren't a feminist, and probably not a socialist either, so maybe that's not your scene (though you could give Jacobin a shot), but my point is that you might want to track down a critic or a site that aligns better with your own political or ideological lens—someone whose judgment you can actually trust, even if you take it with a grain of salt—so you can just follow their recommendations. It doesn't even have to be the exact same political stripe; it just needs to be someone who, like you, isn't willing to swallow "unrealistic bullshit" in cinema. That way, you won't end up getting so annoyed, and honestly, it's a shame to get worked up over something that's supposed to be enjoyable. This subforum probably isn't the best fit for you anyway, since it's mostly filled with younger crowds and people who don't really think deeply, which explains why the most popular movie lists here just end up frustrating you.

Fair enough. 👍
brighteagle39 said:I mean, I honestly feel like movies that are supposed to be "realistic" don't really need some special label slapped onto them just to tell us they're grounded in reality. It seems kind of redundant, if you think about it, because if you see a film categorized simply as a drama, then everything is already pretty much understood, isn't it? You see that genre tag and you just sort of assume the characters aren't flying around in spandex or fighting aliens, so I guess labeling them as "realistic" feels like a bit of an unnecessary extra step that doesn't actually add much value.

I don't think that's quite right, honestly. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking modern cinema is nothing but a endless stream of heavy-handed dramas, but I guess that's just a bit of a simplification, isn't it? If you actually look at what's playing in theaters these days, real movies aren't just relegated to those tear-jerkers; they also include...

I guess you could call it a comedy, if you’re looking at it through a certain kind of lens, I suppose, though calling it that feels like a bit of an overstatement when things are actually this absurdly messy. It’s one of those situations where everything goes so spectacularly wrong that you can't help but laugh, even if the laughter feels a little hollow or forced after a while, maybe because the reality of it all is just too much to take seriously.
I mean, I guess you could call it a political film, if you really wanted to get technical about it, though I’m never quite sure if that label actually captures the messy, complicated reality of what we were watching. It’s one of those movies where the politics feel less like a structured argument and more like this heavy, suffocating fog that just hangs over everything, which I suppose is kind of the point, isn't it? Maybe it was trying to say something profound about the state of things here in America, but I found myself wandering off into these long, rambling thoughts about how much easier life would be if movies just stuck to being simple stories instead of trying to lecture us on the systemic failures of our own institutions. It’s all very heavy, and honestly, after a while, it just feels a bit exhausting, like staring at a flickering neon sign in a rainy alleyway in Chicago—you know that feeling? Just a constant, low-level sense of disillusionment that stays with you long after the credits roll.
I guess you could call it a courtroom drama, though that feels a bit too simplistic for what we’re actually looking at here, if you think about it for more than a second. It’s one of those legal thrillers where everything feels heavy and inevitable, much like watching a slow-motion car crash on a rainy highway in Seattle. I don't know, maybe I'm just being cynical, but there's something about the way these stories unfold that makes you feel like the outcome was decided before the first witness even took the stand. It's all very dramatic, perhaps a bit too much for my taste, but I suppose that's just how the genre works.
I guess you could call it a crime, or maybe just one of those messy, inevitable things that happens when everything falls apart, though I suppose calling it a crime feels a bit too definitive for my taste. It’s all quite complicated, really, if you take the time to look at the layers, which most people won't, because they're too busy rushing through life, but there's a certain weight to it that lingers, much like a bad feeling you get right before a storm hits the coast.
I guess you could call it a family movie, if you're feeling generous about it, though I'm not entirely sure that label really captures the whole vibe of it all.
I was sitting there thinking about war movies, you know, just those heavy, soul-crushing war films that seem to haunt you long after the credits roll, and I guess I can't help but wonder why we're so obsessed with watching them over and over again. It’s a strange thing, really, how we find ourselves drawn to the grit and the tragedy of it all, maybe because it makes our own little everyday struggles feel almost trivial by comparison, though I suppose that's a pretty cynical way to look at it. There's something about that specific kind of cinematic devastation—the kind where you aren't just watching a story, but feeling the weight of every single lost life—that stays with you, and I mean, it really sticks to your ribs in a way most modern blockbusters just don't quite manage to do.
I guess you could call it an erotic film, if you really wanted to get technical about it, though I’m never quite sure if that label actually captures the vibe or if it’s just something people toss around when they aren't quite sure how to describe what they're watching. It’s one of those things where the genre feels almost secondary to the mood, maybe, or perhaps it's just a way to categorize something that leans heavily into that sort of tension, which, honestly, feels like it's always shifting depending on who you ask.
...

I mean, if you look at what’s actually playing in theaters today—assuming there isn't some supernatural gimmick involved, of course—even those low-budget action flicks and those so-called "romantic comedies" seem to be part of the mainstream reality now. And let's be honest, most of those rom-coms aren't even remotely funny; they don't quite reach the level of a proper drama either, they just kind of exist in this weird, hollow middle ground, I guess.

The thing is, you really have to consider that someone actually has to sit down and write a script for all these different genres, I guess. You can't just take a video game, let it play itself out, and then suddenly pretend it’s a cinematic masterpiece or some kind of feature film, maybe. It just doesn't work like that.

I can't help but wonder why it feels like decent comedies have just completely vanished from the face of the earth lately. I mean, does anyone actually feel like there are any left that are even remotely watchable? It seems like everything being churned out these days is just... I don't know, hollow? Maybe it's just me getting older and more cynical, but it feels like we've moved away from actual wit and toward this repetitive, loud, mindless stuff that doesn't really land. I guess I’m just searching for something with a bit of soul, but maybe that's asking too much of modern Hollywood. Does anyone else feel this way, or am I just shouting into the void here?

Susan Taylor72 said:I don't really feel like I carry any personal responsibility for letting a false narrative take root here, because, honestly, a ten-line critique isn't exactly some groundbreaking doctoral dissertation or anything, and since this forum is open to just about anyone and there are dozens of other posts already diving into this exact same angle, I guess I don't really have a burning motivation to jump in and fix it all myself.

I mean, look, you aren't really significant as an individual, I guess; you’re more like just one of those thousand different voices shouting into the void of the internet about some movie. If I actually want to get informed about a film beforehand, I first have to waste a massive amount of my life scrolling through all that noise, and then, after wading through that entire cacophony of opinions, I still don't feel even a millimeter closer to actually knowing anything about the movie itself. It’s all just exhausting, really.

If not one single person out of the thousand internet commenters talking about Dunkirk—and I mean everyone, including those supposedly high-brow critics—has bothered to mention a word about the underlying ideology or the sheer sentimentality baked into the film, then I suppose I’ll just go into it totally blind, completely unprepared for whatever mess is waiting for me on the screen. It’s actually more frustrating when you consider the total silence, this weird sort of omertà surrounding the feminist angles in most modern movies; I can never tell ahead of time if I’m going to end up sitting there getting irritated by some blatant, unrealistic ideological agenda being pushed through the plot. And don't even get me started on the ratings; you look at IMDb and see one person giving it a perfect 10 while someone else drags it down to a 1, which makes me wonder if there's any actual logic to that kind of Gaussian distribution at all. Is it just Wikipedia? Some amateurish, half-baked PR stunt? What I'm trying to get at is that trying to "stay informed" by digging through a thousand different sources to understand the layers and subtext of a movie doesn't seem to offer much value, especially when it demands so much of your time. Honestly, I think I'd much rather just have some short, official guidelines to follow.

I suppose this is the response to the following question:

Susan Taylor72 said:Alright, let's move past me and this whole useless cycle of *ad hominem* attacks, because honestly, what were you actually trying to get at there? I guess you're still digging your heels in about the need for a "realistic film" label, as if without that little tag, a viewer would be forced to slog through two hundred different reviews—most of which are just impressionistic ramblings, much like my own ten lines here. And apparently, my suggestion of using Wikipedia as a sort of aggregated information hub isn't a good idea, huh? Is it just because the idea was mine? I mean, maybe you could come up with something a bit more substantial than that, if you really wanted to.

Looking at the last 30 movies discussed on this forum, northerncrane4 mentioned that maybe only 6 or 7 of them are actually "realistic." So, if you think about it, that means over 75% of the stuff being talked about here—the movies people are watching, obsessing over, and seeing in theaters—is just pure fantasy. We're talking superheroes, sci-fi, animation, people with weird powers, all that stuff.

Now, I guess just because a movie is "realistic" doesn't mean it’s actually any good, obviously. But, I don't know, I sometimes wish I had a way to filter things better, like if someone could just point out which 25% of today's movies are grounded in reality. Then maybe I could spend my time digging through just that small slice to find something worthwhile.

Dennis Martin6 said:you're basically forcing yourself to only look at Hollywood productions and English-language films while completely ignoring everything else happening globally. Honestly, Hollywood and the English language haven't been a guarantee of quality for a long time now, which should be obvious to everyone, so this whole argument feels pretty redundant. That’s probably why you got told you’re stuck in the past, much like anyone else who limits their movies, music, or books to just one language or one specific country. Luckily, while some film industries are sliding downhill, others are rising up or emerging for the first time, which should be pretty exciting for anyone who truly loves cinema.

But how do you explain the fact that out of the 30 movies we've discussed on this forum lately, northerncrane4 claims only 6 or 7 are realistic? It implies that more than 75% of what you guys are discussing, watching, and treating as popular culture consists of unrealistic premises—superheroes, sci-fi, cartoons, people with superpowers, and so on.

Am I really the one who's "stuck in the past" if YOU are the ones constantly bringing these topics up? I mean, where are all the deep dives into those other powerful, high-quality, realistic films from around the world? How many decent comedies from 2017 have actually been discussed on this forum, or even given their own dedicated threads?
silentsurfer2 said:silentridge3, based on all those different threads we’ve been chewing over on television, I get the feeling you just want the world to stay exactly how it was when you were a kid, where nothing ever changes.
But that's just not how it works—the world shifts, some things get better, others go downhill.

...and here I am, being the guy who actually insists on saying it out loud (that the world is changing, and in this specific instance, moving toward the worse), while most of you seem to want to avoid the conversation entirely. 😉

Susan Taylor72 said:Once you're an adult, you've already developed a built-in radar for what you might enjoy; no amount of preemptive descriptions can really help you.
But no, apparently I should just act clueless and whine about how terrible everything has become.

Susan Taylor72, is that really you? You, who couldn't spot the ideology and the heavy-handed pathos in Dunkirk that felt straight out of some old propaganda flick? I saw it, mostly because I’m an adult, I guess. My issue is that none of you, not even the big-shot media critics, bothered to mention it. So, what am I supposed to do? Should I watch every single movie first, write my own little critique, and then only after reading my own thoughts decide if the film is worth my time?

Don't you feel some sort of personal responsibility for spreading this false image, for failing to let the readers of this forum know that the film is basically just ideological melodrama?

northerncrane4 said:First off, you can't exactly watch a movie every third day without feeling totally drained. Well, you can, if you only stick to the same old stuff that you already know is good.

And second, there isn't really a way around it. You can build up your own criteria over the years and eventually trust your gut. How much that intuition works depends, I suppose, on how often you happen to be right. You might find a small circle of directors you actually trust, though even that is debatable.

Honestly, I've almost given up on watching movies in my spare time. It doesn't mean a decent film won't pop up every now and then, but I just don't have the energy to commit two hours to something only to realize thirty minutes in that I've been bored to tears.

It's a pretty bleak outlook, though I guess I agree with it. It's basically what silentsurfer2 was getting at in that last post, that "the world is changing" (which is really just code for: watching movies is becoming pointless because they're turning into mindless, scriptless video games for teenagers).

I remember reading Polimčev's review of The Girl on the Train the other day. The whole thing was just one long lamentation for the days when people actually made movies worth watching, and he barely even talked about the actual film he was reviewing, aside from a tiny little jab at the end. He spent so much time trying to "keep up with the times," trying to adapt to the trends by injecting all this subtext into Spider-Man or the Twilight saga... probably just so writing film criticism would still feel relevant. But even that seems to be losing its point now; it feels kind of hollow to even bother mentioning "sound, visuals, effects, and score" in a "film review" anymore...
northerncrane4 said:But I honestly think your whole idea—that you, as a viewer, have this fundamental right to go into a movie totally blind without knowing anything about the crew or the production—is actually a much deeper issue than just your typical whining about how everything made nowadays is garbage.

No, I don't think it's an issue at all.

I mean, I actually *want* to know things; I want to be able to know ahead of time if a movie is going to be "supernatural-free," for instance. Am I asking for too much? Maybe. But I guess your theory just doesn't really hold water for me.

Anyway, I'm generally not much of a cinema person. I just care about watching movies.

If I want to sit down and watch something every few days without not losing my mind and not turning it off halfway through, does that mean I'm supposed to:

- Scour twenty different "online trailers" (which are basically just glorified, word-for-word copies of the actual commercials)?
- Sift through five so-called "serious media reviews" (with all the inherent biases of those "professional critics" who seem to suffer from this weird syndrome where they feel the need to find "something" good in a total dud just so they don't look like they're being too harsh)?
- Dig through 2,000 amateur reviews on IMDb, including the ones written by people with massive conflicts of interest, and the "reviews" left by complete idiots, semi-idiots, and various shades of morons?
- Put my "faith" in some "average rating" on IMDb, even though that thing has failed me a hundred times already?
- Learn so much about the plot beforehand that I end up spoiling the entire experience for myself?

So, please, explain to me how that's supposed to work.
northerncrane4 said:I mean, look, silentridge3, you’re the one heading over to Walmart or Kroger to pick up some cheap hot dogs, so I guess it’s kind of on you when they end up giving you terrible heartburn, isn't it?

Look, I’m not actually here to whine about bologna—though, honestly, some days it feels like that's all there is—but rather about how we label things, like calling bologna "bologna" instead of just slapping a generic "ham" sticker on it. Is it really too much to ask to know what's actually inside the package before I buy it? Like, can I please just have a heads-up if I'm grabbing a pack of bologna versus actual ham? I mean, why is it such a massive struggle to just categorize a genre or at least put a label on it? Is it because if we started labeling stuff properly, those "superhero" movies would stop being treated as this big, mainstream, "everything" category and finally be recognized as just one specific genre? And why on earth would that be an issue? I guess I'm wondering if it would somehow ruin the fundamental human right of a teenager who loves *Interstellar* and *Spider-Man* to feel cool. You know, if their favorite flicks stopped being seen as the "normal, mainstream" standard and were suddenly labeled as just "superhero," "supernatural," or "fantasy" movies, they might feel like they've lost that sense of being part of the cultural center. It's a bit absurd when you think about it, I suppose.

Since we're already drifting into tangents, I might as well just get this off my chest. It honestly bugs me how you can barely find any decent ham at places like Kroger or Walmart anymore; if I want anything remotely high-quality, I have to trek out to some obscure, specialized deli in the middle of nowhere. And then there’s the constant, subtle pressure from every other shopper and clerk at Kroger and Walmart, acting as if those processed bologna sticks are perfectly normal, almost as if they're collectively trying to force me to just accept it as the new standard.

northerncrane4 said:I guess if you really step back and look at the big picture, it feels like the whole center of gravity regarding consumer demand shifted about fifteen years ago, though I suppose that’s just my way of looking at it. Everything felt different then, maybe because we weren't constantly being nudged by algorithms every single second, but it seems like the entire focus of what people actually want moved somewhere else quite a while back.

You really have to pay attention once in a while, I guess. You can't just wander in here like you fell straight from Mars and act all surprised by asking, "Wait, what is even happening today?"

I guess I can.

Look, I’m just some guy on here. I’m definitely not some kind of film critic or a scholar, and honestly, I don't really care for all that deep-dive research into cinema history or whatever. I guess what I actually care about is just... watching movies, you know? Like, the actual experience of sitting down and watching them in a way that actually feels meaningful.

northerncrane4 said:Sure, superhero movies are basically just highly formulaic, shiny pieces of junk, but I guess if you look closely at the new Spider-Man—which, for the record, isn't really my cup of tea, nor was it ever actually designed to be—there’s this incredibly subtle thread of racial equality woven through the whole thing, which feels like a pretty significant move given how much studios today feel the need to sensitize their target audience. It’s almost funny, I suppose, how you can stumble upon actual, socially relevant subtext even when you're wading through the absolute height of consumerist trash.

Sure thing.

Back when I was younger, we used to look at *Police Academy* and just dismiss it as total garbage, you know? It was basically seen as mindless trash meant for the absolute bottom tier of viewers who didn't want to think too hard. But looking back now, I guess you can actually find all sorts of weird subtext tucked away in there if you look closely enough. When you hold it up against what passes for "normal" mainstream movies today—which, let's face it, are often pretty formulaic—*Police Academy* almost feels like a decent series; I mean, hell, it's almost as if someone actually sat down and put some effort into writing a script or something.

It’s honestly just pathetic when you reach that point where you have to force yourself to get used to such widespread mediocrity, you know? It’s like you find yourself digging through every single piece of garbage—even something like Spider-Man—trying to scrape together some kind of hidden subtext just so you can tell yourself that maybe, just maybe, things aren't entirely hopeless. But I guess the truly sad part, the really depressing realization, is when you stop searching for those layers altogether and start actually projecting them onto the movie yourself, just to make it bearable.
nimblemarlin6 said:These kinds of spectacles are basically engineered specifically so that grown adults end up acting out the exact way teenagers imagine adults should behave.

Exactly.

I caught the trailer for Atomic Blonde (2017) the other day and I think my head actually started throbbing from all that forced "coolness"—you know, the endless cycle of getting punched and then punching back, those ridiculous hundred-foot jumps and all that nonsense... and that was just the teaser. Honestly, God forbid someone actually forces me to sit through the full movie. I can already hear some critic trying to defend it by claiming the cinematography is "top-tier."

Does a movie like that even fall under the "superhero" umbrella, or does what happens in it count as "grounded realism"? Do teenagers seriously believe people actually move through daily life like that?
Susan Taylor72 said:Movies are art. Acting is an art (even with a mask on, I suppose), sound design is an art, film scores are an art.
The idea of realism being a core standard for art sort of died out somewhere back in the 1870s. I think you’re being way too stuck in the past and just being pedantic about it, honestly. Maybe the cure is just watching more so-called "art house" or European cinema, which I guess some of the better people on this forum have suggested. You aren't going to change someone else's standards by arguing on a message board; you can really only work on yourself.

...or maybe it isn't me being "stuck," but rather a whole group of people who have slowly conditioned themselves to accept movies with increasingly supernatural themes and ever-dropping quality? Like, in order to actually watch anything, they had to constantly convince themselves—perhaps even subconsciously—that "the plot doesn't really matter anymore" or that "the special effects in this one are actually pretty great"...? It feels like a "boiling frog" situation where everyone just adjusted to the new reality and lowered their standards so everything looks "just as good" as it used to.

Saying a movie like Dunkirk is outstanding because of the score (especially since it's a historical war film) and the "acting" of a guy whose entire performance consists of a nearly motionless head covered by a mask (I mean, a soccer ball wearing a hat could have played that role, or maybe Helen Mirren or Vedran Mlikota in a hat) sounds to me like someone grasping at trivial details just to stay convinced that "good movies still exist."

I'm not saying Dunkirk is bad. Not at all—I actually gave it some credit for certain things. But if music and the acting of a "static head" are enough of a reason to label a war movie "excellent," then our general standards have definitely hit rock bottom.

PS: please don't try to drag "art" into this conversation; this is a far cry from actual art.
Over on the other thread, people are actually having a serious debate about one of those rare instances where a historical drama actually felt somewhat grounded back in 2017—specifically, Dunkirk.

Look, I’m certainly no expert here, but it seems like this director is considered such a massive deal for some reason (which explains why he’s the focus of this whole discussion). I guess if he’s primarily known for making those "supernatural" spectacles, maybe the audience has just been conditioned to respond to his specific style? Honestly, reading through some of the comments from folks who absolutely loved Dunkirk, I’m feeling pretty baffled by their reasoning. It seems like they don't really care whether what's happening on screen is realistic or not; instead, they’re calling it a masterpiece mostly because of the music (!), the sound design (!), and the acting of an actor who spends basically the entire movie with his face covered up while sitting in a single position (!). I can't help but wonder... did we just lose sight of what actually makes a movie good?
brightharbor20 said:Down in Cleveland, every agency charges 3% plus tax, and they hit both the buyer and the seller with that same amount... honestly, it's almost impossible to find a place that isn't through an agency (like 99.9% of everything on Craigslist is through an agency)... so you guys in Chicago should enjoy it while it lasts, because it definitely won't stay this way once agencies take over the whole market in a few years.

The only way to stop agencies is if sellers just flat-out ignore them, but that's never gonna happen with our mindset. I mean, why wouldn't someone hire an agency to sell their place when it saves them so much time and stress? And at the end of the day, the buyer ends up footing the bill for that whole 6 or 7% anyway.

Well, if we're being honest, they basically already have.

In Chicago, there’s such a massive amount of real estate floating around, and these agencies just constantly "flood" the listing sites, intentionally creating this illusion that there are fifty thousand different properties available. In reality, a homeowner hires one agency to handle the sale (if they hire anyone at all), but then some other agency just goes along and copies that exact same ad to "sell" the same property themselves. So, you end up with the same apartment listed by five different agencies. My family was selling an apartment once, and there were at least five separate ads for that exact same place on Craigslist. It gets even weirder—sometimes even a year after the place has been sold, some agency is still out there "selling" it.

What’s actually being achieved by this constant "flooding," by clogging up Craigslist with tens of thousands of agency listings? I guess it's just making sure private listings (the non-agency ones) stay totally invisible; you simply can't find them, they're like looking for a needle in a haystack. It would be really something if Craigslist just separated private ads from agency ones...

brightharbor20 said:Down in Cleveland, every agency charges 3% plus tax, and they hit both the buyer and the seller with that same amount... honestly, it's almost impossible to find a place that isn't through an agency (like 99.9% of everything on Craigslist is through an agency)... so you guys in Chicago should enjoy it while it lasts, because it definitely won't stay this way once agencies take over the whole market in a few years.

The only way to stop agencies is if sellers just flat-out ignore them, but that's never gonna happen with our mindset. I mean, why wouldn't someone hire an agency to sell their place when it saves them so much time and stress? And at the end of the day, the buyer ends up footing the bill for that whole 6 or 7% anyway.

Exactly. That’s why I think my model would work a lot better. If a seller just paid an agency a small monthly fee, say $17, just to keep the listing active, then the agency could stop being so aggressive during the actual transaction; they’d still be making money, just in smaller increments. And the seller might actually stop and think about whether it’s worth "selling" (advertising) a place for three years at some delusional, sky-high price without ever actually closing the deal—you know, thinking, "maybe some rich person or someone crazy will eventually stumble upon it and buy it at this ridiculous price"—when they realize they’ve spent $600 over those three years just on advertising...

brightharbor20 said:I’ve been hunting for an apartment for 8 months now, and man, I am going hard at it... checked out 45 places already (42 through RE/MAX) and I’m spending like 2-3 hours every single day scrolling through Craigslist and agency sites... out of those 42 RE/MAX listings, one specific agent showed me 35 of them. He was actually the only one who seemed even remotely professional, mostly because he’d shoot me a text about a place the second he got it before it even hit the official sites. Honestly, the only thing I can say good about him is he's always reachable by phone or email, and since I don't have a car, he’d actually meet me right outside my office after work to drive me to viewings. So if I don't end up buying from him, he's basically losing money just to help me, but hey, I guess that's just part of the job

So this one time, I went to see a place where the price had just dropped by $10,000... it was a 65 m2 unit on the 6th floor. We both step into the elevator, and get this—there's already an agent from a totally different firm with her whole family in there, they're looking at the exact same place😕 and she tells us we have to wait until they're done because the elevator is full. My agent looks at me and says, "Let's just hurry up the stairs so we beat them to it." I was being naive, mind you—it was maybe my 2nd or 3rd viewing back then, and I figured maybe this place was seriously amazing or something😁 so I just followed his lead. Sure enough, we beat them, ring the bell, and the owners open the door and you won't believe it, but there's yet another agent from a third agency with a three-person family inside😵—plus that first lady with her two kids. There we were, 11 people crammed into a tiny 65 square meter apartment just trying to look around😁... within minutes, I realized this place wasn't for me and told my agent. Meanwhile, he notices the other group is heading out, so he literally starts pushing me toward the elevator, telling me we gotta move so we can beat them back to the lift😲... honestly, it immediately reminded me of some junkies fighting over a beer can at a bus station at 3 AM... total nightmare. This is what passes for "professionalism" and "expertise" these days.

After that disaster, I really hoped I wouldn't have to deal with agencies anymore, but unfortunately, that's impossible in a city like Chicago. They literally control every listing, and a decent place pops up maybe once every two months and gets snapped up in 2-3 days, naturally through an agency...

Yeah, it feels like things in Cleveland are starting to mirror places like Manhattan or even Munich—there’s just this massive shortage of apartments everywhere. And, honestly, if you think about it, an agency doesn't really have to break a sweat; they basically pocket a huge chunk of change the second someone decides to put their place on the market.
Chicago is a whole different story, though, because there are actually plenty of empty units sitting around, plus there's this much higher demand for people shuffling things around—you know, selling a house to grab an apartment, or maybe offloading a big place to pick up two smaller ones. It’s such a shame the market isn't working more efficiently, where there's a sort of natural "real estate flow" happening. I can't help but feel like part of the mess stems from the agencies themselves and the way their entire business model is set up.
Paul Rogers94 said:Look, I can't stand mainstream productions either, but honestly, my issue isn't really with the flashy special effects, it's more about that cheap, shallow, and just plain mindless attempt at drama,

My whole theory is that those two things are actually cause and effect, you know? I guess the more a movie leans on "fantasy" and heavy technical wizardry, the thinner and cheaper the actual drama becomes.

I mean, you’re probably a much bigger expert than I am when it comes to cinema, so tell me—out of those 31 movies I listed as what this community finds most interesting right now, how many of them are actually grounded in reality (you know, real people facing plausible modern situations)?

Because even if they *are* making realistic films, why does it feel like everyone on this forum is mostly obsessing over other stuff, just endless mainstream fantasy? There was a time, I suppose, when a father and son, or a literature professor and some random guy, could all sit down and watch the same thing together. But nowadays? Did the literature professors just stop watching movies entirely—leaving only kids to haunt these forums—or have they just fallen victim to the "boiling frog" effect, where they've slowly grown accustomed to watching mainstream fantasy with its paper-thin dramaturgy? Now, maybe you'll see two professors debating whether the flight scenes in Spider-Man 3 or Gliderman VII. were better... and then, I guess, just to soothe their own consciences, they try to inject some sense of "drama" into movies where the script feels like it was spat out by a smartphone app rather than an actual screenwriter...
So, I’ve just been sitting here scrolling through the first page—you know, this current one—of the subforum, just scanning all the thread titles:

Alien: Covenant
War for the Planet of the Apes
Constitution of the United States
Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets
The Shining (1980) by Kubrick
Terminator 1 [1984] VS Terminator 2 [1991]
Spider-Man (2017)
The Snowman (2017)
Thor: Ragnarok (2017)
Avengers: Infinity War (2018 & 2019)
Dunkirk (2017) - Christopher Nolan
Baby Driver (2017)
Ready Player One (2018)
The Mummy (2017)
Alien 5 (2018)
The Usual Suspects [1995] VS Se7en [1995]
Justice League (2017 & 2019)
Split (2017)
Mother (2017) - Darren Aronofsky
Atomic Blonde (2017)
Logan Lucky (2017)
Gifted (2017)
Kong - Skull Island (2017)
Jennifer Lawrence
The Irishman
Wonder Woman
The Vegetarian (2012)
The Dark Tower (2017)
Blade Runner 2049
Fast 8 [2017]

If I managed to list them all correctly, I guess that makes 31 different movie titles being tossed around here lately. I was wondering if any of the real cinephiles here could tell me how many of these actually have a coherent plot, you know, with actual characters living in realistic settings? I'm thinking specifically about those ones where the years 2017 and 2018 are attached. Like, out of all those from 2017, how many are even remotely grounded in reality? I mean, I realize that realistic films are probably in the minority, but I don't really have a sense of just how small that minority actually is.
Paul Rogers94 said:so even within those surreal fantasy creatures, there's more or less just a classic drama about unrequited love (say, between two opposing species), blah blah, the movie essentially boils down to drama which is always the same stuff or just variations on a theme in any film, set against some backdrop, whether it's some looming catastrophe—like a comet, a war, or whatever various historical or future circumstances you can think of—and I mean, those surreal creatures are so extremely anthropomorphized that they don't actually differ much, at least when it comes to their needs, from "real people" living today; the drama is always existential and always the same, and films that truly deviate from shallow, boring human nature and its accompanying clichés are incredibly rare

I guess I partially agree with what was written, but maybe try to notice a few things here:

1. I haven't been spitting venom or demanding a ban on "unrealistic" movies. There have always been such films, and there always will be, along with their fans. I'm just speaking up for those of us who crave different kinds of cinema, because for us, finding gems in modern filmography feels like it's becoming a rarer and rarer occurrence.

2. It's true that a talented director can genuinely capture human nature even within an "unrealistic setting." But then again, a truly great director is a rarity, so quite often, alongside unrealistic scenery, you get an unrealistic portrayal of human nature too. What really gets under my skin are the flaws in the script, the characters, and especially the DIALOGUE. I honestly feel like directors would need to pay way more attention to those specific details if they were filming a realistic contemporary drama than if they were making a flick about a supernatural hero wandering through some undefined space and time.

3. A "realistic modern film" demands ninety minutes of pure directorial focus and screenwriting precision. To actually be watchable, a "realistic modern film" has to be high quality. On the flip side, an "unrealistic film" can sort of "cheat" its way through those ninety minutes by leaning heavily on technical spectacle. Sure, you could probably cram some kind of "drama" into the 13th installment of Iron Man or the 23rd Star Wars sequel to label it "high quality," but if you strip away the special effects and superpowers, take the exact same actors and the exact same dialogue, and transplant them into a quiet street in Santa Barbara... well, I wonder how much "quality" drama would actually be left over...
Paul Rogers94 said:A "realistic modern film"???
I mean, since the dawn of time, human nature hasn't really changed; it’s just the scenery that shifts.

That’s an interesting observation, I suppose.

Does that imply there actually exist places like inter-country realms, sub-spatial rifts, hand-drawn characters, people who fly, talking animals, or half-werewolves living for centuries—and all of that happening right now?

Or are you suggesting that those of us who prefer realistic (actually possible) events are some kind of "relics of the past," while the future belongs solely to audiences who want to watch massive machines causing gargantuan explosions and superheroes spouting ridiculously shallow lines in movies that don't even have a script? Is the future of cinema really that bleak?
Nancy Bishop4 said:What kind of fool would pay $83 just to look at an apartment.🤦
That $3,000 isn't for the walkthrough; it's for actually finding the buyer or the property in the first place.

🤦

So, I see a listing on a free site like Craigslist, and suddenly...

...according to you...

...I've somehow "already hired an agency to find me a place"?????

When did I ever hire them? How does that even work?

Just to refresh your memory here: real estate agents aren't even going to show you a house (even if you haven't technically hired them yet) until you sign a contract promising to pay them a 1-2% commission once you actually buy the place.
Nicole Johnson20 said:I don't know, I guess I've just never experienced watching some gritty, realistic movie only to have the animals start talking to me ten minutes in. 🤷 🤣

But then again, I suppose it’s entirely possible you could sit down for a "historical" epic like *Barbarossa*, where two different women in totally separate circumstances experience these "visions" that somehow turn out to be spot on.

It seems like this modern obsession with escapism is getting so intense that everything has just blurred together, and I mean, it feels like filmmakers today think they absolutely have to sprinkle at least a little bit of *Game of Thrones* magic into every historical drama just to keep people awake...

*- honestly, that movie has such a desperate script and the acting is so lackluster that, in a sane world, the creators should probably be legally barred from ever touching a screenplay again. But in this day and age, I guess nobody really cares about writing or acting anymore; what matters is that the CGI environments look expensive and the shots of catapult stones flying through the air are filmed from some flashy, cinematic angle.

Producer 1: I think we should let the screenwriter go.
Producer 2: But who’s going to finish the script? It’s already pretty thin as it is...
Producer 1: Oh, we don't need that; nobody actually reads scripts anymore. What we really need is more special effects. Let's just take the writer's fee and hand it over to two more computer geeks—we'll stick them in the writer's office and have them beef up certain scenes. For instance, when a guy is walking down a street, let's make it look like an imaginary camera is falling from outer space right down to that specific sidewalk... that's what's trendy now, that's what people want to see... Or if someone hears a sound, maybe a tiny imaginary micro-camera flies straight into their ear...
Producer 2: ...but surely some people still prefer movies with a solid, realistic story...
Producer 1: Forget that; just look at the top ten highest-grossing movies this year, and you won't find a single thing that's actually grounded in reality...
Paul Anderson7 said:Well, most of those massive viewership numbers usually refer to the theater experience. I don't really hit the cinema much myself, and when I do, it’s mostly because I’m taking the kids along, so they get to see some animated movie. It’s an experience for them, so why not give it to them? When I actually go out for my own sake, it’s usually some loud, blockbuster type of thing because, honestly, if I'm paying for a ticket, I want to see the big visual effects on a huge screen. If I want a solid drama or a thriller, I’d much rather just settle in at home where it’s quiet; that’s just my preference, I guess.
That’s kind of why these movies are made—to draw crowds into theaters—and that’s the whole reason the box office numbers look the way they do. I mean, I did catch Paterson in a theater once, but I think I’d much rather sit through The Fast and the Furious

when I'm actually heading out to the movies.

I suppose that’s basically my theory as to why we see fewer and fewer films nowadays with tight scripts and realistic plots.

Most movies only really make their money at the box office, and there’s almost no incentive to go to the theater unless the film features massive technical spectacles or serves as a way to "pacify" a kid for an hour or two. It feels like this closed loop of themes and quality in modern filmmaking.

Paul Anderson7 said:As for the other stuff, I think there are plenty of good films coming out that fit your definition of "realistic," and even if they aren't topping the charts at the local multiplex, people are definitely talking about them. Just a few that come to mind from last year:

Moonlight
Manchester by the Sea
Hell or High Water
Elle
Hunt for the Wilderpeople
Nocturnal Animals
Lion

Sully
Daniel Blake

These were all critically acclaimed; I watched them all, and as far as I can tell, none of them feature flying people or aliens or elves. They're pretty much straight dramas. You'll find these types of films on just about any "best of the year" list. They might not be the biggest hits, but they're talked about, and you certainly can't say titles like these are hard to find, despite the handful I just mentioned. I wish we saw more thrillers in that vein, but hey, a good one pops up every now and then.

I’m not saying there aren't any "realistic" films being made today, I’m just saying there are fewer of them, and there seems to be less investment going into them. Maybe it would be helpful if they were categorized as a special genre, or if the trailers at least gave us a hint about what kind of tone to expect.
nimblemarlin6 said:The definition of that genre:

"Non-genre cinematic narratives set in the modern era, focusing on the lives of everyday people who don't hold glamorous jobs, aren't situated in exotic locations, and whose stories don't revolve around sensationalist events that would grab a tabloid's attention—and if they do involve such things or places, they are presented in a completely non-sensational way."

No, I wouldn't say you're exaggerating, though maybe you're leaning into it just a bit.

I mean, a realistic film today can still technically fall into a specific genre, I guess, and you could describe any group of actual people—whether they're totally average or anything else, as long as they're real and don't have superpowers—and they can have any kind of job imaginable, from the exciting ones to the mundane ones, and the plot could play out anywhere on the face of the Earth, involving any events that could actually happen in the real world...