Posts by rapidmaker54

I’m right there with amberfox6 on this... the biggest issue facing this country is that everyone just stays silent. It's a tragedy because they label only the hooligans, the losers, the drunks, and whatever other insults they throw at fans as "supporters." If people actually spoke up and stood their ground, they could show the journalists exactly what kind of legislation the Government is pushing—laws that violate basic human rights and are likely unconstitutional in several different ways.

placidcyclist5 said:Discovering fire...? I'm not discovering...

First off, clean up your own mess (stop touching anything involving money or payments... honestly, seeing some people join that Always Faithful association was a massive letdown... but hey, if that's what they want, fine...)

Second, try to make sure there aren't riots during the Tampa Bay Buccaneers vs. Los Angeles Lakers games (not that it's my business, but surely the two biggest fan groups in America... politicians will just use them as a distraction to shift focus away from actual issues...) but seriously, less stupidity at other games too...

Third, do the work, but stop being so foolish—like going to consult with Adlešićka... (God knows what kind of politicians we deal with here...) In my opinion, you should take a stand, write a joint letter, and present your demands clearly... (I've said this a hundred times already...) What kind of "negotiations" are those? They'll just use it as an excuse for the Sports Fan Act, claiming we consulted them and they approved it, while they'll claim we didn't. It'll be their word against ours, and you know exactly how that ends...

Fourth, these groups need some sort of code of conduct. You need to influence the younger kids so they aren't carrying rockets, sticks, telescopes, or brass knuckles... unfortunately, some older guys actually encourage it... (just to prove how tough their group is, which is pure stupidity...)

Fifth, we should sue the fifth Sanders because it would prove we actually give a damn about ourselves, but as they say: lightning doesn't strike the weeds... (though that doesn't apply to the ones constantly chest-thumping...)

If regular people actually fixed half of this, we'd get a lot more respect...

what on earth are you talking about?????

The fan law is heading into its second reading soon. That means we have the first reading this Wednesday, followed by the amendment phase, then the second reading, and finally the vote..
In short, there's still a glimmer of hope that things might shift. The guys have put in some serious work, but there is still a massive mountain of work left to do regarding this legislation.....

http://www.javno.com/hr/america/clanak.php?id=230226

The wheel of fortune keeps spinning... you banned alcohol, so don't go drinking it now. 🙂

Usually, that just lands you with a misdemeanor charge and a fine.

As we saw in the Saturday edition of the New York Times... our Prime Minister was busy sipping champagne at the semifinals. So, I have a question for all the moralists lurking on this thread: why hasn't the PM been arrested? Is he going to be banned from watching handball? Will they seize his passport? Are we going to have to report him to the local police station every single time the national team plays?

Come on, you moralists.

Andrew White32 said:I might be totally tripping out here... I honestly can't remember why, but I have this vivid memory of it being a workday and a cup game...🤷

Just a quick correction though—that sun icon on the fence? It isn't transparent.👍

Look, Sean Gonzalez95, I know you guys were there, but if there had been a massive movement, there would've been signs. I'm talking about that specific game where people were still cheering in the West long after the 90 minutes were up.🤷 But whatever, it doesn't really matter now.

If my memory serves me right... it was a cup match. You guys are pounding those drums and singing for at least 45 minutes after the final whistle. They wouldn't let us head home, so they marched us through downtown instead.🙂 That’s all that's left of history.🙂

Jamie James6.... I can see you haven't actually read the fan law, because if you had, you'd know exactly what we're discussing here..

Vlad, check your inbox!
January 27, 2009

A coalition of fans gathered at the European Parliament to make one thing clear: we aren't just a bunch of hooligans. We are intelligent people capable of drafting both legal arguments and plain-English critiques. Our goal isn't to whine to the press about police brutality or how this new fan law is designed to crush us; rather, we want to demonstrate that we won't be treated like lab rats or used as pawns to open up new markets for those looking to exploit the European Union.

We presented the media and the public with the most controversial points—those that infringe upon the rights of both hardcore supporters and casual spectators—as well as specific areas where we are demanding stricter regulations regarding convicted individuals. That is the core of our argument: the police shouldn't have the authority to unilaterally decide who is a "hooligan" and who isn't; that is a judgment for the judicial system based on actual convictions. We aren't asking for permission to riot or destroy property—that’s already illegal and we don't want it—we are demanding that the law itself remains constitutional. All the specifics are in the documentation we provided to the press. Honestly, I think first-year law students could draft a more coherent piece of legislation than this.

The response from Times Square didn't take long, though. That wannabe "Iron Lady" showed her true colors by claiming they never even received our email proposals. It's funny, because we had no trouble reaching them via that same email when they were hosting those cozy meetings with the Administration over milk and cookies. Now, they’re showing their arrogance by pushing through a law that is unique in all of Europe for its lack of professional expertise. The Administration has fast-tracked this bill through Congress, leading that "Tin Lady" to suggest we'll just sit down again and somehow end up with a "good" law. Based on the latest word from the square under the disputed crest, there is no turning back; with this emergency procedure, the vote is 99% a done deal.

That’s when "American democracy" kicks in, where party discipline reigns supreme and votes are traded like commodities. To be fair, we've actually heard positive feedback on our criticisms from both sides of the aisle; both the "left" and the "right" agree that certain provisions are shocking. Of course, you actually have to read those ten pages to see why. And don't even get me started on the support we have from civil liberties experts and relevant professionals. They were right there at those meetings, sitting across from the Administration, warning them about these problematic articles.

A huge chunk of this law targets clubs and organizers, but nobody seems to care about that part since it’s been ignored until now, and they basically have a year to do absolutely nothing. Furthermore, the law doesn't even specify which sports or levels of competition it actually applies to.

Are minor league soccer teams, basketball players, or handball teams going to be forced to buy ticket scanners, numbered seats, and extra security? If my local minor league soccer team makes it deep into the Cup, will someone swoop into our small town just to stop the people from celebrating? Will anyone actually storm the VIP box to confront Jerry Maguire, Mark, or some politician, snatch a glass of wine out of their hand, slap them, and then have them arrested only to be released two hours after the game?
Will the police shut down a Real Madrid vs. Barcelona match, or a national team game, just because a few thousand counterfeit tickets were floating around?

Will the police seize the passports of paid assassins, drug dealers, pedophiles, or crooked doctors?

No. But the fan movement isn't going anywhere either!!

Attached is the proof that the email was indeed sent to our dear friend Vlad.

- We need this fan law passed immediately since the soccer season kicks off in about twenty days, and we have to prevent chaos at the stadiums. If there are any concerns regarding human rights violations, I suggest we address them through the proper channels later for potential amendments - said George W. Bush.

this is exactly how our country operates....
basically, if you complain, I'll screw you over, but if I say "my bad," then I'll just screw you over even harder...

feralpilot912 said:Look, people cheer at the stadium. And if they’re sitting in the West Stand at the arena, you can bet your life they’re cursing out the BBB.

Anyway, I'm reading through this PDF and all I see is fans enabling each other: "We're doing great, let injustice fall, this whole conspiracy against the entire fan world won't last forever, it has to end eventually..."

Maybe everyone on these forums isn't a hooligan. There are probably decent kids in here too, but they're so deeply buried in their own echo chambers that it's unbelievable...😕

No offense, but you're the only one here stuck in an echo chamber...

feralpilot912 said:Ahem... as a lawyer, I find poorly drafted laws regarding hooliganism more frustrating than the actual violence. And if what you're saying about this draft is accurate, then we have a problem here...

Look, I still maintain that hooliganism is an evil that needs to be rooted out. In our current climate, I almost view hooliganism and organized fandom as one and the same. Why? Because within these supporter groups, there’s zero condemnation of the "extremists" or the "thugs." There isn't even a single concrete action taken by the fans themselves against those among them. No internal lines are drawn. No one steps up. My take? There is no difference. They are all the same. There’s no distinction between a "hooligan" and a "fan"... which is why I support any strict sports fan law. Of course, implementation will be a mess. Every time the administration pushes something through, it ends up being a failure.

Honestly, it surprises me that you'd comment on specific laws without even reading them first. If you're going to weigh in, at least do the homework: read the actual law, the first amendment, the government's proposal, and our own suggestions...

Besides, who is claiming that supporter groups haven't distanced themselves from the hooligans? And who is saying those thugs causing all the trouble are actually members of these organized supporter groups?

Just a quick question here... who actually brings more shame to the country? Is it a group of "hooligans" getting into some random brawl in Prague and setting off flares in the stands, or is it the American ambassador caught smuggling alcohol into a nation where it's strictly prohibited?

feralpilot912 said:We need to fight this using every repressive tool at our disposal. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: if we need to revoke passports, then let them be revoked. If we need to harass anyone convicted of hooliganism by forcing them to check in at police stations or making them watch games from there—so be it. If there is any way to make it difficult for a hooligan to attend a match or support their club or the national team, I am all for it.

There are far too many idiots in the stands who jeopardize everyone's safety and bring shame to the club, the city, and the entire country. Let those fan groups purge themselves. If the fans won't do it themselves—and we all know they won't—then the state should use other means to handle it.

-------

As for the claim that this is stripping away or limiting constitutional rights—well, it simply isn't. Freedoms and rights can be restricted by law to protect the freedoms and rights of others, the legal order, public morality, and public health. Any limitation of freedom or rights must be proportionate to the necessity of the restriction in each specific case (Article 16 of the Constitution). If you aren't allowed into a two-hour game because you were brawling or causing chaos at a previous match, I'd say that is perfectly proportionate to the situation.

If you've been in jail for hooliganism at matches, or even multiple times, why shouldn't they take your passport so you can't go on an away trip, say, to Italy? WTF? Either behave or deal with the consequences.

The real issue here is that they are banning people from attending games who haven't even been convicted of a misdemeanor yet, let alone a crime, simply because an investigation is still ongoing...
To put it bluntly... it's like a cop pulling you over and revoking your driver's license just because he thinks you blew through a light, without even knowing if it was red or green.

The press conference is over...

This is absolutely terrifying...

Section 39.b is being amended to read as follows:
"Section 39.b
(1) The Department of Homeland Security shall organize and maintain a database regarding individuals and
incidents related to sporting competitions.
(2) The database described in paragraph 1 of this section includes: personal data on individuals recorded for
violations of this fan legislation (full name, parentage, Social Security number, date and
place of birth, gender, nickname, pseudonym, occupation, affiliation with a fan club or organized
fan group, photograph, and any information pertaining to an identified physical person who
can be identified), filed criminal complaints and indictments, imposed
preventative measures, penalties, security and protective measures, detained and held persons,
data obtained from foreign law enforcement agencies, and data concerning fans and fan
groups.
(3) Data from paragraph 2 of this section may be used for exchange within the framework of international
police cooperation and may be provided to other users in accordance with regulations governing
personal data protection.
(4) Data from paragraph 2 of this section shall be retained for ten years.".

Since I don't see a single one of the fans' proposals being taken seriously, I’m calling for a total boycott of all matches by every supporter group.

Anonymous said:Let's dive back into that controversial Section 32..

Section 32 states,

The municipal court may impose a fine and imprisonment on anyone committing offenses under the fan legislation aimed at preventing disorder at sporting events, alongside protective measures and precautionary orders. These can include: a ban on attending sporting events within the US, a ban on attending US events with mandatory check-ins at local police stations, a ban on attending US events with mandatory detention at police stations, a travel ban involving the surrender of one's passport, or a ban on attending international matches with mandatory detention at police stations.😲😲..

Protective measures under this section cannot last less than 1 year or more than 2 years...

These protective measures can actually be handed down even without a formal sentence being issued😲😲😲. The idiots have written it into law so they can slap you with a restrictive measure without a conviction, and they've made it legally binding. Are all you people who spend your lives arguing about "my dad is tougher than your dad" actually realizing what happens if this passes?????

Now look at Section 34..

For anyone committing a criminal offense under this act, the court cannot issue a ban from sporting events shorter than 1 year or longer than 5 years from the date the judicial decision becomes final—and get this—the time spent serving a sentence doesn't count toward the duration of this ban. Where in the world does it make sense that time spent in custody isn't credited against the sentence??? I'm using our own situation as an example because it's basically the same thing...

There's no doubt about it: the authors of this law graduated from the school of total incompetence..

If this corrupt administration rejects our proposals (which is a given since this amended version is heading straight to the floor for legislative procedure), then giving up on further legal appeals to the Supreme Court or the European Court of Human Rights will mean the death of fan culture and the absolute end of the ultra movement for Americans... This law is strikingly similar to the laws used in Italy. In a massive country of 50 million people with over 100 ultra groups, that kind of law wiped out the entire movement. It’s dead; it just hasn't been unplugged yet. If it can destroy a nation of 50 million, imagine what it'll do to a country of 4.3 million people with only 7 supporter groups spread across a top-tier league...

This is already part of the current law.

The police and the entire judicial system have to follow the law...
Look at these people who shocked everyone; they’re walking free despite carrying handguns, rifles, and explosives.
That news outlet used to highlight stuff like this, but only when it involved college students... what kind of country is this? Just become a criminal and you'll be doing just fine.🙂