Posts by Rebecca Rivera2

Chris Lopez59 said:Come on, don't walk away from me, Rebecca Rivera2... I'll whip up some homemade pasta for you if you stay.

🤣 😁

Lisa Ortiz2 said:Oh, please! I’ve had quite enough of George W. Bush.😳 lately.

If you're going to lump me in with him, I'll be taking my leave—no polite goodbye included. 🙂

swiftorca57 said:And you—just like George W. Bush seeing the ship start to sink, you just calmly walk away...!!!

😁 Fortunately, I was never the one at the helm—otherwise, that would be a rather awkward coincidence, wouldn't it?

.

Well, the moment has finally arrived...

If the moderators allow this thread to simply fade into obscurity on its own—without any official intervention or locking—then I’ve decided I’m done. I won't be posting here anymore.
In fact, I’m stepping away from every single discussion in the religion section of this forum, and once this particular thread eventually dies out, I’ll be gone from here too.
Ego, Eminem—you guys won.

Still, since I’ve spent quite a bit of my life (perhaps a bit too 😁) in this corner of the internet, I’d like to take a moment to say goodbye to everyone...
To every one of you—including those who made it their mission to attack me—I sincerely wish you nothing but good health and personal happiness... 🙂
There are certain people I’d like to thank specifically... and, before I go, I suppose I should address a few off-topic questions that have popped up along the way...

I’m calling it now: this thread will probably get locked. So far, there hasn't been any real appetite for the arguments being laid out here.

NOTE:
If the censorship continues like this, we’ll be forced to migrate our discussions to communication channels outside of this platform.

The very domain name Reddit essentially implies that this is a PUBLIC space—which, frankly, it isn't. That is the crux of the entire issue.

From what I can gather, the domain wasn't assigned in a way that aligns with the regulations set by AT&T, which oversees the top-level domains. This warrants an investigation. There is a commission within AT&T specifically designed to handle disputed cases like this one.

If the current forum were renamed to something like www.anderlonforum.com or www.part-forum.com (referencing the atheist society that practically runs this place and controls one of its most widely read files—Religion), then we wouldn't have this confusion that leaves users feeling completely misled.

In all seriousness, is it actually possible—before anyone takes steps that can't be undone—to have a civil, human conversation with someone here?
Anderlon?

Yes,
it’s blindingly obvious that this was just a standard joke. Besides, Radeta explicitly mentioned his girlfriend is from Canada—which makes it pretty clear we aren't dealing with deep-seated prejudice here, just some low-brow humor...

But hey, mission accomplished. Looking at the PDF, you could almost say religion has vanished entirely, and the other Christian groups are being chased off one by one. The data doesn't lie.

And let's not forget, this Reddit is "public." 😉

I’m stepping in to back this request.

The "DIO" atheist group—which probably tops out at maybe 50 members, yet somehow manages to claim 66% of the active moderators on the religion subreddit—is essentially hijacking a religious space and pushing out Christians. Specifically, Catholics have been almost entirely scrubbed from the platform. In this blatant effort to marginalize believers—an effort clearly supported by Slim Shady through his moderation tactics—the numbers speak for themselves.

Either fix this imbalance, or be honest and label this as a subreddit controlled by the "DIO" atheist society.

Look, on legitimate religious forums, there is transparency; people know exactly whose influence they are under before they even post.

What are the odds that an atheist group consisting of just a handful of people holds 66% of the moderator seats on a religion subreddit, while the massive Christian communities—including Catholics, who are the largest demographic in the US—hold 0%?

Oh, I'm sure it's just a coincidence. 😉

_

Thomas Foster5 said:So, if I personally decided that Hitler was a deity and held him in the highest regard, would that mean we aren't allowed to discuss his mental stability without offending my religious sensibilities?

Or do I need a following of 100 million people to achieve that status?
What exactly is the required quota of followers needed to turn someone's psychological state into a taboo subject?
Or is the issue simply that the legend surrounding Jesus is ancient?

What kind of criteria are we even using here?

Take Sai Baba, for instance.
He has about a million followers who view him as a god.
Does that mean I am forbidden from publicly questioning his mental health?

Who exactly is barring us from scrutinizing and studying the world around us—including our own religious sentiments?

Christian beliefs tend to make people closed off to any shift in perspective, largely because they are structured around circular logic that self-validates, making it nearly impossible to escape that loop of absurdity.
This "ban" on questioning someone's reliability only reinforces that point, as it operates on the a priori assumption that such an individual is a perfect divinity.
It’s nonsense.

Keep in mind, I wasn't actually calling for censorship of the topic, but let the record show that I have been flagged more than once just for generally mentioning Dawkinsites, purely as a joke and in a completely benign manner. It’s a display of double standards and pathetic criteria. In reality, the most stubborn atheists act as the ultimate censors, and they’ve effectively begged for punishment over things that are utterly trivial and meant in jest.

I suppose I should have expected this kind of reaction—it’s almost predictable at this point. One tries to offer a nuanced perspective on the matter, only to be met with the usual wall of noise. It’s fascinating, really, how quickly a civil discussion can devolve into this sort of thing when people prefer certainty over complexity. It reminds me of those old debates you'd see on early internet forums—lots of posturing, very little substance, and an almost theatrical commitment to being wrong. But then again, perhaps that's just the nature of the beast. kaže:
I certainly did—I laid out some very specific points.
I've already told you—I happen to know someone who doesn't bother with shaving and just rolls up to the beach completely unshaven.
The main beach.
And honestly, nobody even dares to cross her.
I’m sorry that didn't click for you right out of the gate—but there it is.

It isn’t a matter of whether I can follow your logic—I certainly can—but rather a question of how much anyone is actually going to buy what you're selling.

At this point, it feels like we’ve drifted straight into trolling territory—and frankly, I’m starting to wonder if there’s even any real point in dragging this debate out any further.
In case you didn't catch my drift—and I suspect you might have missed the nuance here—I wasn’t exactly campaigning for the elderly to be ignored on the subway, nor was I suggesting we slam the doors in women's faces. My point was much simpler, if perhaps a bit more clinical: I was merely observing that both behaviors are perfectly natural human tendencies.
It’s one of two things—either you simply lack the capacity to understand me, or you’re making a very conscious, very deliberate choice to ignore what I'm saying.

I follow your logic, I really do—but you’re essentially downplaying the very real pressures we're seeing right now, specifically regarding how much society is being desensitized. You stretched your "civility" so thin that by bringing up lynchings in your thirty-eighth post, you actually crossed the line from debate into straight-up trolling.

In any case, Well, hello there. I honestly don't wish you good health, nor any other kind of well-being—not even a shred of it.
I don't want anything from you.

Why did you even bother with the pleasantries? If you were going to commit to a specific tone for this entire post, why abandon it halfway through just to be polite? You might as well have stayed consistent with the rest of your argument—it would have been much more coherent. 🤷

I... that specific point of mine—the one that completely contradicts everything you just laid out in your previous post—you didn't even bother to address. But fine, whatever.

Rebecca Rivera2 said:It isn't an ad hominem; I am merely noting that you seem to have lost the thread of your own argument by masking what is essentially a witch hunt under the guise of "etiquette," all in an attempt to prove how coercive and harmful such formalities can be.

Quincy:

No, it wouldn't be; rather, it would be one of the main beaches in that area. And I’d appreciate it if you didn't keep being obtuse about it.

Look, you could call my own post "obtuse" if you like, but if you aren't looking for a real answer, why bother posting at all? 🤷 In any case, you haven't actually provided anything concrete, offered any real arguments, or even said anything that sounds remotely logical.

Quincy:

No, they aren't becoming more frequent exceptions. On average, the ratio of quality content to total garbage remains constant. It’s up to the individual to choose.

There is no inherent mechanism that regulates a steady ratio between high-quality content and pure junk. Junk is easy and fast to produce, and it doesn't last long. For a consumerist mindset and under the reign of neoliberal capitalism, almost any piece of trash is a highly profitable product. Furthermore, it is significantly easier to dull people's wits than to enlighten them, which creates a perfectly logical causal link between intellectual stagnation, the mass production of cheap filler, and the successful sale of that very same filler.

Quincy:

And what exactly does that have to do with the tragic disappearance of etiquette?

It has everything to do with current social pressures and the active dulling of the public mind—as well as the desire of certain groups to force those who don't conform to just leave.

Quincy:

Well, that's just human nature. But that isn't the only thing that's human. It is also human to stand up for an elderly person or hold a door for a woman, and to genuinely wish others good health. It's just natural.

Oh, bravo. Personally, I'd much rather offer my seat to a pregnant woman or a senior on an MTA bus out of "old-fashioned" courtesy than try to be "hip" according to the standards of some tacky cable network or whatever other mindless media outlet is trending.

And yes, I will still end by wishing you good health, regardless of how much that might irritate you. 🤣 😁

_

There is simply no built-in mechanism to maintain any kind of equilibrium between genuine, high-quality content and the endless stream of absolute garbage flooding the market. Junk is easy—it’s fast to manufacture, cheap to distribute, and it burns out just as quickly as it arrived. In a landscape driven by a consumerist mindset and unchecked, laissez-faire capitalism, almost any piece of low-grade trash can be marketed as a "must-have" product. Beyond that, there is the uncomfortable reality of human nature: it is far easier to dull the senses of the masses than it is to enlighten them. Therefore, there is a perfectly logical, direct causal link between the systematic numbing of the public and the massive commercial success of producing nothing but cheap, disposable filler.[/I]

The scenario I’ve laid out here represents what we are seeing today—a massive amount of social pressure being funneled toward anyone who refuses to accept a culture where apathy has become the "new normal."

The "old school" etiquette used to feel more like a mild seasonal cold—annoying, sure, but manageable—and as I mentioned earlier, in certain contexts, it actually feels quite intuitive and natural.

_

William Gonzalez3 said:Actually, I think Cave said everything clearly in his post; he just didn't say what you've somehow twisted through mental gymnastics to make your own point.

He mentioned how any individual has the ability to leave their current company and start their own small business where they can operate according to their own rules.
Let me repeat it for you, just so you can see for yourself—since reading the top of the page seems to be a bit much for you.

OMG, if you don't want to do it, then just leave. I don't know which part of that is confusing. If a company does things you aren't interested in, why stay there? Start your own firm where none of that stuff exists, but stop trying to force everyone else to do things you don't want to do.

If everything is supposedly the same everywhere (which obviously isn't true—that's just an excuse for lazy people), then maybe the profession you're aiming for doesn't really exist, and you're just looking at some low-rent version of it. In any case, if you don't like it, just walk away.

Anyway, this is getting pretty off-topic, but the point William Gonzalez3 made—which I am also explaining—is that you have the freedom and the right to leave an environment that doesn't suit you.

If I recall correctly, you actually left your previous job to start your own company where you set the rules, so I honestly don't see what the issue is here.
No one was advocating for running away, nor were we suggesting taking the path of least resistance; it’s actually quite the opposite.
Cave was advocating for taking matters into your own hands.

So, if you could please be so kind as to stop misinterpreting things from a different thread, because it's clear we won't be discussing basic etiquette today.

Cave said that vague nonsense while responding to my example about a journalist being pressured to write sensationalist tabloid trash. It’s the same story at any other news outlet out there...

So, what would you actually do in that situation? Start a freelance consultancy? 🤣 Get real.

And journalism wasn't even the only option—I could have used plenty of other professional examples...

William Gonzalez3 said:
Why all the ad hominem attacks and trolling?
What I was really trying to convey to you was that subtle distinction between how social pressure used to work—back when people actually had various ways to exert it and often did so quite openly—and the way it functions today, where it seems to have dwindled down to little more than just constant condemnation and mockery.

Of course, you could always relocate to Manhattan Island—as long as it isn't done under any kind of pressure, I suppose. 😉

I’ve been thinking about this lately—and I suspect others might feel the same—but honestly, the idea that there is this massive social pressure forcing every individual to strictly adhere to traditional etiquette just doesn't seem to exist anymore. Maybe I'm being too cynical, or perhaps things have simply shifted, but that constant, heavy weight of having to perform "proper" manners to fit into society... it feels like a relic of the past. It's almost as if those unwritten rules of decorum have lost their grip on us entirely.
That’s essentially what I was getting at in my first post—and, looking back, I didn't notice anything you've said in any of your previous comments that would actually contradict my point.
It seems you’ve managed to tackle just about everything else—except for that one specific thing.

It would probably just be some lonely, unkept stretch of beach—you know, the kind where nobody really goes.

No, I wouldn't say that—it would actually end up being one of the main beaches in the area.
I would ask that you please refrain from continuing to be so obtuse about this.

I suppose we’re seeing more and more cases that look like exceptions—but, if you think about it, they actually just reinforce the very rule I was talking about.

No, I don't think they’re becoming more and more exceptions—not necessarily.
It seems to me that there’s always a fairly consistent ratio between what’s actually high-quality work and what's just pure junk—it stays about the same, I guess.
It really comes down to the individual—it’s all about the choice you make.

It seems inaccurate when applied to many job titles—and honestly, in quite a few different situations as well...

And how exactly does that have anything to do with this tragic decline in manners?

I mean, look—your company wasn't exactly an outlier, but I have this nagging fear that most businesses in the sector you seem to be operating in... well, they might be working just like yours.

I suppose they certainly are.
I mean, I suppose most people really are exactly as I described—it’s just an observation, really.

I was simply suggesting that we should be the kind of people who stand up for a pregnant woman or an elderly person on the subway—you know, those small gestures that actually matter. Maybe it’s about helping a blind person cross the street, holding the door open for someone struggling with heavy groceries, or even just wishing another human being good health. It's really just about those little moments of decency. To feels completely organic to me. In other words—it just seems entirely logical and fundamentally human.

Well, that part is definitely human.
But being human isn't limited to just that.
It’s also human to not stand up for your elders, or to not hold doors open for women, or even to not wish someone else good health.
And it's natural.
What's actually unnatural is when decent guys decide they want everyone else to be exactly like them—so they impose all these artificial rules on everyone else, forcing people to act according to those standards instead of just being themselves.
Actually, now that I think about it more carefully, even that isn't really "unnatural," because I suppose we all have this underlying desire for everyone else to be just like us—to behave the way we want and think the way we want.
That, too, is quite natural.
But it is also rude and incredibly pretentious, much like the people who try to force those expectations on others.

It isn't an ad hominem; I am merely noting that you seem to have lost the thread of your own argument by masking what is essentially a witch hunt under the guise of "etiquette," all in an attempt to prove how coercive and harmful such formalities can be.

Quincy:

No, it wouldn't be; rather, it would be one of the main beaches in that area. And I’d appreciate it if you didn't keep being obtuse about it.

Look, you could call my own post "obtuse" if you like, but if you aren't looking for a real answer, why bother posting at all? 🤷 In any case, you haven't actually provided anything concrete, offered any real arguments, or even said anything that sounds remotely logical.

Quincy:

No, they aren't becoming more frequent exceptions. On average, the ratio of quality content to total garbage remains constant. It’s up to the individual to choose.

There is no inherent mechanism that regulates a steady ratio between high-quality content and pure junk. Junk is easy and fast to produce, and it doesn't last long. For a consumerist mindset and under the reign of neoliberal capitalism, almost any piece of trash is a highly profitable product. Furthermore, it is significantly easier to dull people's wits than to enlighten them, which creates a perfectly logical causal link between intellectual stagnation, the mass production of cheap filler, and the successful sale of that very same filler.

Quincy:

And what exactly does that have to do with the tragic disappearance of etiquette?

It has everything to do with current social pressures and the active dulling of the public mind—as well as the desire of certain groups to force those who don't conform to just leave.

Quincy:

Well, that's just human nature. But that isn't the only thing that's human. It is also human to stand up for an elderly person or hold a door for a woman, and to genuinely wish others good health. It's just natural.

Oh, bravo. Personally, I'd much rather offer my seat to a pregnant woman or a senior on an MTA bus out of "old-fashioned" courtesy than try to be "hip" according to the standards of some tacky cable network or whatever other mindless media outlet is trending.

And yes, I will still end by wishing you good health, regardless of how much that might irritate you. 🤣 😁

_

Olivia Evans8 said:OMG, if you don't want to do that, just leave! I mean, which part of that is confusing? If a company does exactly what you hate, why on earth would you still want to work there? Just start your own business where none of that nonsense exists! Just don't go forcing everyone else to deal with your standards when they're just trying to run their business.

If everything is truly the same everywhere (and let's be real, it's not—that's just lazy thinking), then maybe the job you think you have isn't actually a real profession anymore, but just some cheap, watered-down version of it. Either way, if you're not feeling it,
just walk away...
Anyway, this is getting pretty off-topic, but the whole point the person who triggered you made—which is what I'm trying to get across—is that you have the freedom and the right to just bail from an environment that doesn't suit you.

Sure. The media isn't making people stupider at all—because if they were, there wouldn't be any consequences for their influence on society, and I'd just be making things up. And if I haven't made them up, then moving out of the country isn't "pressure"—it's just a lack of pressure. 🙄

What's actually relevant here is that certain rules of etiquette (not all of them, mind you) are quite logical in my view.
Modern social standards are frequently shaped by the media; essentially: the dumber and more mindless the content, the better. That's what's "in" right now, and if you can't stomach it, you're "out"—and of course, you're free to emigrate.

_

William Gonzalez3 said:
It wasn’t exactly a matter of legal compulsion—not in the way we think of laws today—but if someone dared to defy social etiquette back then, they faced more than just a cold shoulder. They could be met with total social isolation, which, in many ways, was its own kind of sentence. And honestly, sometimes the consequences were much darker—we're talking about things like mob violence or similar outbursts. I suppose the pressure from one's immediate community was incomparably heavier than what we experience now, especially since society had access to various methods of coercion that simply don't exist in our modern world.
Back then, it was enough to just label someone as morally bankrupt—or even go as far as calling them a witch—and the fallout for that person would be absolutely devastating. I guess, looking back, the consequences were incredibly severe; once that stigma stuck, there really wasn't much way to recover.

It seems like nowadays, people can—well, I suppose they can—openly label themselves as witches without facing any real consequences at all—aside from maybe some lighthearted mockery, I guess.

William Gonzalez3

It feels like there’s this informal pressure to act a certain way nowadays—not even about being polite or having good manners, really—but just a constant, unspoken push toward specific behaviors. It seems more intense now than it used to be, I guess.

I don't think I ever really dealt with that kind of pressure when I was finishing up elementary school—it just wasn't quite like this, I guess.

Mobility doesn't really mean much to me—I mean, honestly, even if you move to a different city, it’s mostly more of the same.

If things are already this way in one city, I suspect we won't see much of a difference in another state either—it probably won't change anything.

You didn't actually answer me—you just dodged the question. I mean, look, if you were a woman today and chose not to shave, you practically wouldn't be able to step foot on a single beach without being subjected to constant ridicule. It’s just how things are.

Maybe even a woman who hasn't had any work done could find a beach where people aren't staring or snickering—if such a place actually exists.
I know that all too well—from my own personal experience, anyway.
So... I suppose we should probably dive into this.

It doesn't really matter. Even if you decide to "unplug" from the mainstream media, the pressure remains—if you’re a journalist, people will still expect you to churn out clickbait and sensationalist trash; if you’re a singer, you’ll be pressured to perform whatever latest low-brow hit is trending; and if you’re a designer, it feels like you're forced to produce nothing but kitsch. It seems like there's no way to escape the demand for mediocrity.

There’s actually a whole range of examples—spanning journalism, fine art, and even graphic design—that pretty much prove the exact opposite. Honestly, I think that makes this a rather thin argument if you're trying to demonstrate that supposed "powerful pressure."
Take a band like Cold Brew, for instance—nobody is forcing them to churn out mindless, commercial junk, yet they’ve managed to become incredibly successful and widely heard.
People actually value quality—it’s not just about cheap junk or things that look washed out and faded.

It’s funny how things work—or don't work. To actually land a deal these days, it feels like people aren't even looking at your pitch anymore. Instead, they’re busy judging who you hang out with, what kind of car you pulled up in, or whether your suit looks expensive enough. I guess the level of pretension in the business world is just higher than it's ever been.

Not really, I guess.
Honestly, I think all you really need is to show up in clean, tidy clothes—and nothing more than that. That’s really it.

William Gonzalez3

Back in the day, when I was managing people at a private firm—I think it was a mid-sized tech company out in Austin—I formed some truly lasting bonds. It’s funny how things work out, I guess. Even now, I still hang out with several of my former employees; we grab coffee, stay active together through sports, and I’ve even helped a few of them out financially when they were in a pinch. Honestly, seeing them doing well and catching up every once in a while... it really brings me a lot of genuine joy.

I'm glad to hear that—really.
I suspect things aren't quite like that at other companies—well, maybe they are, but I haven't really seen it firsthand.

It’s possible—though I suppose one could argue that certain "rules" and... I think there might have been a misunderstanding—it looks like your message was just a single word, "dio." If you were trying to share a specific post or some text for me to rewrite, please go ahead and paste it! I’m ready to get to work once I have the source material. It all feels quite natural to me—so, honestly, as far as I'm concerned, those rules probably didn't even need to be written down in the first place. 🤷

It seems to me—and I could be wrong here—that absolutely no rule feels truly natural.
I suppose all of these rules are essentially just social constructs—nothing more than a collection of instructions created by society to dictate what an individual can or cannot do.
If rules were truly inherent to our nature, I suppose they would be identical across every society throughout history—but as we all know, that simply isn't the case.
I suppose it really comes down to the setting—burping can be seen as a sign of being satisfied with a meal in some circles, while in others, it’s just plain rude. It’s one of those things that seems to depend entirely on where you are.
It’s interesting how much culture dictates our grief—you know, in some parts of the world, people wear white to show they're mourning, while elsewhere, black is the standard. I guess it just goes to show how much our traditions shape the way we express even our most private emotions.
I suppose there are certain situations where you just have to dress up—even if, in a different setting, it might feel a bit much or even slightly out of place.
etc. etc.
All these rules—they’re really just human inventions, aren't they? I suppose they mostly just encourage people to lie or put on an act, which feels pretty disconnected from how things actually work in nature.

What you're describing actually misses the point regarding etiquette; you seem to have drifted a bit off course, haven't you? 🤷

I never had to deal with that kind of pressure when I was coming out of middle school.

Well, good for you—as an individual.

if it's the same in one city, it won't be the same in another country.

Of course, though you could always just exile yourself to Manhattan Island; as long as it doesn't feel like pressure, right? 😉

even a woman who isn't conventionally attractive could find a beach where she won't be mocked.
I know this from personal experience.
so...

That would most likely be some desolate, unkempt stretch of coastline. Back to Manhattan Island again?

there is an entire array of examples in journalism, art, and design that prove the opposite, making this a rather flimsy argument for proving your supposed "intense pressure."
Take a band like Foo Fighters, for instance; nobody forces them to churn out garbage, yet they are incredibly successful and widely listened to.
People value quality, not just mindless fluff and cheap thrills.

There are examples that are increasingly becoming exceptions, which only serves to reinforce the rule I was outlining. I could argue that point quite extensively in a different thread.
If, by sheer coincidence, the leader of the free world happens to be Chinese, you certainly can't conclude that the Chinese people, as a whole, are above average in height.

not really.
all you need is to wear clean, tidy clothes. nothing more.

That is incorrect for many professions and in many different contexts...

I’m glad to hear it.
Most companies don't operate that way—it's definitely an outlier.

I feel the same way. My old firm wasn't exactly a unicorn in that regard, but I have this nagging suspicion—based on what I've seen—that most places you'd end up working are actually quite similar to that one.

None of those rules are "natural."

All I was saying is that things like—offering a seat to a pregnant woman or an elderly person on the subway, helping a blind person cross the street, holding the door for someone loaded down with groceries, or simply wishing another human being good health... to me feels entirely instinctive. In other words, it seems perfectly logical and fundamentally human.

_

Olivia Evans8 said:True, but my point is there's no actual coercion involved. You can stay inside the system and either help build it up or throw a wrench in the gears. It’s not forced, it’s just pressure—and you only feel it if you actually *want* to be part of that society. So many people say "I don't care" about all the chaos in the modern world, while others are desperately trying to be somewhere they clearly don't belong. That's not pressure... that's just being foolish.

What exactly are we discussing here? Let's take a look: Imagine you're a journalist at a major network like NBC or CNN. Your boss demands you chase celebrity gossip and write mindless fluff because that’s what gets clicks—it’s "in." If you insist on covering substantive, intellectual topics, they’ll eventually show you the door because that doesn't move the needle—it's "out." You can jump ship to a different news outlet or move from New York to Los Angeles, but the script remains identical.
That is, by definition, pressure—and it is absolutely a form of coercion, given that it carries the implicit threat of being fired. Nowadays, success isn't driven by etiquette or genuine expertise; instead, many professions require you to embrace mediocrity, emptiness, kitsch, and pure trash—basically, any mass-produced garbage that is cheap to make and easy to sell.

_

Olivia Evans8 said:That's just part of the job... 😉

Quincy:

It’s pretty obvious you don't get how things work in America in certain circles...

Doesn't change my point though...

Quincy:

Well, if you can actually find a positive example, it's sadly the exception rather than the rule.

That's because people don't want to stand out as examples, they just want to fit in. Just being sheep... all neatly shorn... 🙂

The real issue here is that the masses—those mindless sheep—are actively demanding mediocrity. They crave something shallow and fundamentally stupid. If you’re one of the few people who refuses to play along with that downward spiral, you’re going to find yourself in a tight spot. You end up under immense pressure simply because you refuse to blend into a crowd that seems increasingly determined to lower the collective IQ.

Let’s be honest—liberal capitalism essentially uses the media to "manufacture" a mindless consumer class—people who are conditioned to fall in love with buying absolute junk—but that is a conversation for another time.

Olivia Evans8 said:Christiane Amanpour doesn't deal in trashy journalism. And a woman choosing not to shave isn't inherently gross; it's just her choice.

See?

Anyone telling you that you "basically" have no choice is lying to your face. Those people are just used to being coddled...

Don't give me that. It's clear you have no idea what the reality is like in certain parts of America... And if you happen to stumble upon a single positive example, it’s—sadly enough—becoming a rare exception to the rule.

_

Olivia Evans8 said:So? Does the mockery get to you? Why even push your way into a crowd that doesn't want you there anyway?

Doesn't matter. Even if you "turn off" the TV, if you're a journalist, everyone still expects you to churn out clickbait. If you're a singer, you have to sing whatever trash is trending. If you're a designer, you've gotta make tacky stuff... Basically, the pressure is insane because so many people have been brainwashed that in certain industries, there's nobody left to actually create anything meaningful for. So, "turning off" the TV and trying not to let them mess with your head doesn't really help you much, since everyone around you has already had their brains washed...

Hahaha, same thing again... Why force yourself into places where you aren't wanted? I mean, even tigers wouldn't want me hanging out with them...🙄

Did you miss the point of my examples?

The first was about a hypothetical woman—pointing out the reality that she’ll face that exact same mockery pretty much everywhere she turns.

The second hypothetical scenario dealt with a profession—say, if you're a journalist, you don't really have an escape hatch because every major news outlet from New York to LA is increasingly pivoting toward sensationalist trash.

I could go on and list plenty of other careers... fields where you effectively have zero options because of the relentless pressure from an idiotized public and whatever mindless trends they demand.

Get it now? 😉

_

I'm still waiting to see if anyone actually has something meaningful to contribute to this thread—it feels like we're just circling the drain at this point. kaže:
The pressure from everyone around you—it’s real. It’s constant, heavy, and frankly, exhausting.
It’s hardly a matter of coercion.
You can demand compliance, sure—but you can’t actually force someone to say "yes." You can apply all the pressure in the world, tighten the screws until they’re practically screaming, but at the end of the day, you’ve only succeeded in creating resistance. It’s like trying to force a rusted bolt to turn by just leaning on it harder; eventually, you aren't getting movement, you're just snapping the tool. Pressure might bend people, but it doesn't change their minds.
Back in the day, we used to deal with court-ordered mandates.
Now we’re just dealing with nothing more than pressure.
And that right there—that’s the subtle distinction we're talking about.

Let’s be clear—when we talk about legal compulsion, there was never any actual mandate regarding "etiquette" or social graces in the past. There aren't laws on the books that fine you for being rude at a dinner party. However, if we look at the informal pressure to conform to certain behaviors—behaviors that, frankly, have absolutely nothing to do with basic manners—it feels much more intense today than it ever was back in the day. It's less about being polite and more about an aggressive, unspoken demand to act a certain way just to fit a modern mold.

Like I was saying—individuals have far more mobility today than they used to. People actually have the agency to pack up and walk away from environments that don't suit them anymore—places that, frankly, would otherwise try to force them into some rigid, outdated mold.

Mobility doesn't actually mean much in the grand scheme of things—I mean, let’s be honest, moving from Chicago to Seattle isn't exactly a leap into a different dimension. It's more or less the same grind, just with a different skyline and perhaps a different brand of overpriced coffee.

If I were actually planning to go get a wax today, I’d probably head to a beach where people wouldn't spend the whole time judging a metrosexual like me.

You didn't actually answer the question—you just dodged it. Let’s be real: if you were a woman today and decided to skip the grooming routine, you wouldn't even be able to step foot on a public beach without becoming an immediate target for ridicule.

Look, there is an incredibly simple solution that people seem to overlook in their endless debates about media influence: you can just turn the damn TV off. It is a remarkably effective way to opt out of the mass media circus entirely—just reach for the remote, hit the power button, and suddenly, that whole manufactured reality ceases to exist in your living room.

It doesn't really matter. Even if you decide to "unplug" from the television—say you’re a journalist—the industry is still going to demand that you churn out nothing but clickbait and sensationalism. If you’re a musician, you'll be pressured to pump out whatever mindless, top-40 garbage is trending this week; if you’re a designer, you’ll find yourself forced to produce pure kitsch just to stay relevant. The pressure is immense because so many people have already been conditioned by the mainstream noise—they've had their brains essentially rewired. In certain professions, you don't even have an audience left to create anything meaningful for. So, while you might think "turning off the TV" and refusing to let them brainwash you is a victory, it doesn't actually change your reality. It’s hard to maintain your own perspective when you're constantly surrounded by people whose minds have already been scrubbed clean.

Like I said before—middle school can be a real minefield of cruelty.
One thing I neglected to mention—and it’s a point worth highlighting if we want to be thorough—is that once you finally clear the hurdles of middle school and high school, that relentless, suffocating pressure from your social circle just... evaporates. It’s as if the constant scrutiny from peers and teachers suddenly vanishes, leaving you to navigate the real world without someone constantly breathing down your neck about every little move you make.

It’s all a bit much, isn't it? Nowadays, if you actually want to land a contract or close a deal, it feels less about your actual talent and more about the optics—who you're grabbing drinks with, what kind of car you pull up in, and whether your suit screams "Wall Street executive" or "just rolled out of bed." Honestly, the level of pretension in the business world has reached an all-time high; it's like everyone is auditioning for a role in a high-stakes drama rather than just trying to get work done.

I’m speaking for myself here, certainly—but I’m also speaking for the countless others who have to answer to those truly vile, 밑less creatures. Honestly, most supervisors fall into this category; they are the kind of people you wouldn't wish a common cold upon, let alone anything more serious. It's a grim reality for many in the workforce.
It’s funny how people suddenly decide they’re your superior—it’s almost like they’re finally dropping the act and showing you their true colors once they realize you aren't actually a threat to their little kingdom.
Since I deal with quite a few managers and supervisors myself, I’ve developed a fairly accurate intuition regarding what people are actually made of—and I certainly don't harbor any delusions that they were somehow different in their past lives.
From an objective standpoint, people can be pathetic, weak, and fundamentally corrupt.

Back in the day, I used to hire people while working for a private firm. Even now, I stay in touch with some of them—we play sports together, I’ll even lend them a hand financially—and we grab coffee from time to time. Honestly, it's a pleasure running into them.

Quincy:

You're back at it again, lecturing about what's considered "cool" in schools. I know how it is. I went through all of that, and I remember exactly what it feels like when you don't have the latest Nikes in middle school. But life after graduation is a completely different animal. People's priorities shift significantly; they stop obsessing over whether something is "in" or "out," and nobody gives a damn if you aren't wearing designer kicks or if you didn't go on some trendy spring break trip. I truly don't understand this constant pressure you insist on talking about. The only real pressure I notice in my own orbit is existential. Worrying about being trendy is a luxury reserved for the obscenely wealthy. And there aren't many of those people in this country.

Where exactly are you living? Most of what is considered "trendy" is incredibly shallow. The pressure is intense—if I want to survive, I might have to backtrack and do things I find beneath me just to get by. I won't bore you with the details, but that applies to many areas of life. Perhaps not in your world; I'm not sure what you do for a living.

Quincy:

Rules themselves aren't natural, nor are they particularly welcome.

Perhaps, yet I find certain "rules" and elements of social etiquette to be entirely natural—so much so, in my view, that they wouldn't even need to be written down. 🤷

_

William Gonzalez3 said:
Where did the pressure go? I guess I’m just wondering where all that intensity vanished to—it feels like things have suddenly gone quiet.
I've been wondering—has anyone actually ever felt pressured by someone else to get breast implants?

I think we’ve got this all wrong. Nowadays, it feels like society puts more pressure on us than ever before—this constant, relentless drive to curate a fake persona, an "image," just to feel like we actually belong. It's almost as if we're forced to perform a version of ourselves that doesn't exist, simply to be accepted by everyone else.

Yeah, I guess elementary school can be pretty brutal to certain kids sometimes—it’s just one of those harsh realities of growing up.
But even so—it doesn't really change the fact that society just doesn't hold the same kind of sway over the individual anymore. It’s different now than it used to be, back when communities were smaller and everyone actually knew one another—you know, when you couldn't just slip under the radar. Nowadays, people are so much more mobile; if you find yourself in an environment that doesn't quite fit, it’s incredibly easy to just pack up and move on to somewhere else.
The reality is—if we're being honest—that society just doesn't have the power to force anyone to do anything.

The reality is—if we're being honest—that society doesn't actually force anyone to stick to those old-fashioned rules of etiquette anymore. I guess there isn't really any real pressure left to behave according to the traditional standards we used to live by.

As for that idea—that everyone should just be capable of wishing someone a good day or being kind in the ways you mentioned in your previous post—I think reality tends to tell a different story. I guess the truth is often much harsher than those ideals.

I honestly don't think people truly desire mutual prosperity or collective well-being—or perhaps, more accurately, they simply aren't capable of it. It seems like most folks lack the courage to be honest with one another—whether that's because they're acting out of cowardice or just trying too hard to fit in—and, I guess, they also struggle to face the uncomfortable truths about themselves.
Actually, I think what I described happens more often than what you’re suggesting should be the norm—you know, that weird situation where someone gives you a greeting and simultaneously wishes for you to take down whoever they're actually greeting. It seems like that's the more common reality, even if it isn't exactly how things ought to work.

In the past, I suppose people were much more polite—offering those courteous "good mornings" and wishing one another well—mostly because they felt they had to. There was this immense social pressure to conform, wasn't there? Back then, the penalties for stepping outside the bounds of law and order—whether through formal legal action or just informal social shunning—were significantly harsher than what we experience today. Plus, the concept of individual rights just wasn't nearly as robust as the protections we take for granted in America now. It was less about genuine kindness and more about navigating a much more rigid social structure.
I suppose people don't feel the need to lie quite as much as they used to—it isn't so much that everyone has suddenly become perfect, but rather that there’s a certain level of openness now. People seem to be much more sincere with one another than in the past, I guess.

Just to reiterate my point—society is essentially built upon a foundation of lies, and honestly, it’s those very lies that allow everything to function as it does.
I suppose if we all actually knew what everyone else truly thought of us—I mean, really knew—things would look a whole lot different. Honestly, society would probably just fall apart under the weight of it all.
I suppose the whole point of etiquette is really just about maintaining a certain illusion—that sense that everyone actually likes and respects one another, even when they don't. It’s almost like a social veneer, isn't it? A way to keep things civil and polished, regardless of what might be happening beneath the surface.
I suppose anyone who’s spent even a little bit of time around the local crowd knows—better than anyone, really—that nothing can ever be further from the truth.

How exactly do you figure that? It feels like we’re being micromanaged by our surroundings at every single turn—it's practically inescapable.

Who has actually ever pressured anyone into getting breast implants?

The surrounding area. 🤣 The era of these types of "adjustments"—and everything like them—is only just beginning to arrive.
Let’s say, hypothetically, you were a woman—would you actually have the nerve to show up at the beach without having groomed every single inch of your body? It’s a different ballgame entirely. The reality is that you’d be facing a hell of a lot more scrutiny and social pressure—specifically the kind involving being mocked or judged—than your grandmother or grandfather ever had to deal with back in the day, simply because they might not have been strictly adhering to what we now consider modern standards of "proper" etiquette.

Let’s be honest—elementary school can be pretty brutal when it comes to how kids pick on individuals. It’s a harsh environment, and the social dynamics can be downright unforgiving.
But let’s be honest—that doesn't change the fundamental reality that society just doesn't hold the same kind of leverage over the individual anymore. Back when communities were smaller—think of those tight-knit midwestern towns where everyone knew your business before you even did—social pressure was an absolute powerhouse. Nowadays? That influence has evaporated. People are far more mobile than they used to be; if you find yourself stuck in a social circle or a local culture that doesn't sit right with you, you don't have to suffer through it—you can just pack up and move to a different city entirely. It's much easier to walk away from a community that no longer serves you.
Let’s be honest—the cold, hard truth is that society simply doesn't have the teeth to force anyone to do anything. At the end of the day, you can push and prod all you want, but you can't actually compel a person to act against their will.

Society today—fueled by the relentless media machine—possesses an almost lobotomizing power. It’s a surgical strike without the scalpel, yet the end result remains just as devastatingly hollow. From the manufactured drama of Big Brother to the sheer, chaotic unpredictability coming out of the Huljić workshop, one could honestly go on forever.

The reality is that society doesn't actually force anyone to adhere to the old-school rules of etiquette anymore—it just kind of lets them fade away.

That’s not even what I was getting at—what I mean is that today, there's this constant, forced pressure to act a certain way toward... I’m still waiting to see if anyone actually has anything useful to add here—it feels like we’re just spinning our wheels in the sand at this point. The rules—if we can even call them that—are quite clear on this one. It’s getting more intense than... What exactly do these people consider to be—according to their own logic—the "old rules" we’re supposedly breaking today?

Regarding that whole notion that everyone should just be capable of wishing someone a good morning or being generally pleasant—the kind of stuff you touched on in your previous post—well, reality has a funny way of proving you wrong. It’s easy to preach about basic civility, but when you actually step out into the world, it becomes pretty clear that most people simply don't operate that way.

Look, I’m speaking strictly for myself here. For instance, whenever I encounter someone who is being wildly overrated or—let's be honest—completely incompetent, I make a point of letting them know exactly where they stand. I don't sugarcoat it. At the same time, though—and this is an important distinction—I can still sincerely wish them good health. It's entirely possible to be brutally honest about someone's lack of talent while simultaneously hoping they stay out of the hospital.

Let’s be honest—most people don't actually want others to thrive, nor do they have the internal fortitude to wish someone genuine prosperity or health. It’s a fundamental flaw in the human condition. They lack the courage to face the truth when dealing with others—mostly because they’re either spineless cowards or simple conformists who prefer the comfort of a lie—and, quite frankly, they lack the emotional maturity to handle the truth about themselves.

You’re generalizing. If I decide you’re being either dim-witted or acting in bad faith—which is a judgment I won't hesitate to make—I’ll be sure to let you know exactly where you stand. I've certainly made a habit of calling people out like that before. 🤣Look, I’m not out here wishing you ill or hoping you end up in a wreck on some interstate—that’s just not my style. Honestly, I want nothing but good health for everyone; I mean that sincerely.

In reality, what I’ve pointed out happens far more often than that idealized version of social etiquette you’re describing—you know, that scenario where someone offers a friendly greeting while simultaneously harboring a desperate urge to deck the very person they’re waving at.

I don't exactly harbor those kinds of impulses—you know, that sudden, irrational urge to just go out and deck someone.

Back in the day, people were much more likely to offer a polite "good morning" or wish you well—not necessarily because they actually cared, but because social etiquette was essentially a survival mechanism. Society exerted this intense, constant pressure on the individual to conform; if you stepped out of line, the repercussions weren't just awkward glances at a cocktail party. The penalties for breaking the established laws and social order were significantly more draconian, and let’s be honest—human rights were a far cry from the protections we take for granted in America today. It was less about genuine kindness and more about avoiding the heavy hand of an era where the margin for error was razor-thin.
It’s funny how things have shifted—honestly, it feels like people don't even need to resort to the old-fashioned art of lying anymore. It isn't that everyone suddenly developed a moral compass overnight; it's more that we've become significantly more blunt with one another. We aren't exactly spinning webs of deception like we used to—instead, there's this pervasive, almost aggressive level of transparency that has taken over our daily interactions.

Where exactly do you live? Honestly, the sheer amount of posturing, superficiality, and pure pretension out there seems more widespread than ever before.
There’s this relentless social pressure these days to constantly be "in"—as if life were some high-stakes popularity contest where you’re either trending or completely irrelevant. If you haven't meticulously curated this specific, polished image of yourself, you're effectively written off as being "out." It’s become this exhausting, unspoken rule: perform the persona, or face the social exile. 🤣

Let me reiterate: society is built entirely upon a foundation of lies—and frankly, it’s those very lies that keep the whole machine running.
If we all actually knew what everyone else was truly thinking about us—really, truly knowing their unfiltered thoughts—things would look a lot different around here. Honestly? Society would probably just fall apart at the seams.
The true purpose of etiquette—if we’re being honest about it—is simply to maintain a convincing facade where everyone pretends to adore and respect one another.
Anyone who’s actually spent any time rubbing elbows with the common crowd knows—as anyone with half a brain can tell you—that nothing they say is even remotely close to the truth.

While certain rules of etiquette can feel a bit forced—almost like they’re being performed just for the sake of appearances—I truly believe there are others that are entirely natural and, frankly, more than welcome.

_

William Gonzalez3 said:
Maybe etiquette is dead simply because people aren't interested in maintaining the facade anymore, given that there's less pressure to do so.
We could probably reasonably assume that in the past, society exerted much more intense pressure on individuals to conform to specific norms and regulations, whereas today, things are shifting; people are slowly breaking free and becoming more blunt with one another.

For instance, how many times have you lied when saying "good morning" to someone, while secretly wishing you could just walk away?
Or maybe you sat through a tedious conversation about someone's relationship drama or a minor medical procedure—like a sinus surgery—out of pure politeness, even though you would have preferred to be doing literally anything else at that moment.
It's the same with standing up for an older passenger on a subway or a bus when you don't really want to, just because "that's what you do"—even when you realize that person could easily stand on their own, or even run, if they saw an empty seat opening up.
In a way, society is built on certain illusions, and social etiquette is often just a set of guidelines on when, to whom, and how we should perform those lies.
If this kind of behavior were truly innate to human nature, I guess we wouldn't need to be taught it; we would just naturally gravitate toward it.

Personally, I haven't quite reached that level of "natural" behavior; instead, I've come to a somewhat different conclusion—that every time I follow traditional etiquette, I feel like I'm sacrificing my own comfort to accommodate someone else's, and more often than not, I'm being dishonest in the process. For example, I've stopped using overly formal titles for older people just to project a sense of respect that isn't necessarily felt.
I'd rather reserve that level of deference for people who actually earn it through their actions, rather than simply because they have gray hair or dentures.
And honestly, most people who truly deserve my respect don't even demand that level of formality from me in the first place.

I have to disagree; if anything, people are lying more than ever before. We see it everywhere—from massive economic spin and political propaganda down to those "mundane," everyday interactions. Even physical appearances are increasingly artificial—look at how common silicone implants have become.

Quincy:

one could reasonably assume that society used to exert much heavier pressure on the individual to conform to specific rules, norms, and regulations, whereas today that pressure has dissipated, allowing people to slowly liberate themselves and become more sincere with one another.

That is fundamentally incorrect. In this day and age, society exerts more pressure than ever for people to curate a manufactured "image"—a carefully constructed persona designed solely to ensure they are "accepted."

Quincy:

for instance, how many times have you lied when saying "good morning" to someone, while secretly wishing you could just punch them in the teeth?

Personally, I believe a person should be capable of wishing anyone at least a pleasant day and good health; there really isn't a need for deception in that regard.
Quincy:

or perhaps you've submissively listened to someone drone on about their tedious relationship drama or a trivial medical procedure—like a deviated septum surgery—even though you would have preferred to be doing literally anything else.

It is generally better to listen to a person, even if the timing is entirely inconvenient for you.

Quincy:

or maybe you stood up for an elderly passenger on a subway even when you didn't want to, simply because "that's what you do" and "it's the rule," all while being perfectly aware that the person could likely stand—or even run—without issue, as older folks often do when they spot an empty seat on the train.

I don't know what it's like to deal with osteoporosis or to be pregnant, but that "rule" feels quite instinctive to me. Whenever I'm riding the subway, I actually find satisfaction in giving up my seat to a pregnant woman or an elderly person.